post FOSDEM

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
56 messages Options
123
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: post FOSDEM

Joel Peshkin
Dan Wierenga wrote:
>
>  A command-line script is The Way You Install Things on Linux, and you
> wouldn't ship a Linux release with a broken checksetup.pl.  Similarly,
> an installer package (.msi or .exe) is The Way You Install Things on
> Windows, and yet here you're talking about "promptly updating it every
> release".  In other words, there's a Bugzilla release, and then the
> installer would have to be nudged along.
>
>  
The part that hangs me up here is what do we expect a Windows installer
to do?  Does it need to install Apache and Mysql and ActivState Perl?  
Or does it presume certain things were previously set up before it is run.

Would it be reasonable to provide an installer that does the following....

1) Checks for perl ... if no Perl ...  pop up instructions to install
Perl first and quit
2) Check for perl modules, if modules are missing, ask PPM to install them.
3) Prompt the user for Mysql connection information.  Test the
connection, if it doesn't work, pop up instructions to install/configure
MySQL
4) Offer to start a perl-based Webserver for Bugzilla.


-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: post FOSDEM

Max Kanat-Alexander
In reply to this post by Dan Wierenga-2
On 02/16/2010 04:38 PM, Dan Wierenga wrote:
> I think that's the wrong way to go about this, and IMO it's indicative
> of the entire thought process of the Bugzilla Project in regards to
> Windows.  It's fairly obvious that Windows is the red-headed stepchild
> platform.  Too little effort goes into making things work on Windows
> for it to be really, truly considered a "supported platform".

        Hey Dan. Here's the problem:

        Nobody pays me to work on Bugzilla. Nobody is paid to do Bugzilla
releases. (In fact, *nobody* is paid to work on Bugzilla full time, at
all.) The current release package process is very simple, whereas an MSI
that would install and configure Bugzilla, Apache, MySQL and Perl all at
once is an incredibly complex undertaking requiring an immense amount of
specialized skill that I don't currently have. It's not that I don't
understand the importance or the utility of such a project, it's simply
that I *cannot do it*. So I need somebody else to do it, and then I
would be *really glad* to have it.

> - A simple clarion call to the list(s) for some help in sprucing up
> the process of installing Bugzilla on Windows.  It's okay that none of
> the reviewers knows much about making things install gracefully on
> Windows; what's not okay is that you KNOW that, and you still haven't
> put out a call for help.

        Every time somebody has suggested this I've said that I would gladly
accept help. It would be one of the most valuable contributions that
anybody could make to Bugzilla. I think that the last time somebody
suggested it was before you were on the list, though, or it's possible
that the discussions happened on IRC.

        So yes, if you want to do this, it would be totally awesome, and I will
help review it and talk about how it should be done.

> - A commitment to a Windows installer, and the general treatment of a
> Windows installation as "just as important as another platform".

        In fact, we'd be making a commitment to Windows, in this case, as being
*more* important than other platforms. We don't provide distro packages
for any other OS.

> You
> can't make a release and then say the release is waiting for one
> person to create an installer.  

        If you think that you could get me an MSI simultaneously with every
Bugzilla release, then I'd be happy to commit to it. Alternately, the
Windows installer could come a few days after the release, and I would
post it then.

> Basically, the Bugzilla Project needs to show it *wants* to be part of
> the Windows community before the Windows community can be expected to
> want to be part of the Bugzilla community.

        I'm extremely interested in contributions from Windows developers--I
think that Windows may be the most popular platform to install Bugzilla on.

        -Max
--
http://www.everythingsolved.com/
Competent, Friendly Bugzilla and Perl Services. Everything Else, too.
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: post FOSDEM

mockodin
In reply to this post by Joel Peshkin
Typically the difference between Standard Install (include mysql,
apache, perl, etc..) and Custom Install (pick and choose)

So yes, I would expect those options to some extent or another, either
prompting for their existance and give instructions or to simple do
the install.

On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Joel Peshkin <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> The part that hangs me up here is what do we expect a Windows installer to
> do?  Does it need to install Apache and Mysql and ActivState Perl?  Or does
> it presume certain things were previously set up before it is run.
>
> Would it be reasonable to provide an installer that does the following....
>
> 1) Checks for perl ... if no Perl ...  pop up instructions to install Perl
> first and quit
> 2) Check for perl modules, if modules are missing, ask PPM to install them.
> 3) Prompt the user for Mysql connection information.  Test the connection,
> if it doesn't work, pop up instructions to install/configure MySQL
> 4) Offer to start a perl-based Webserver for Bugzilla.
>
>
> -
> To view or change your list settings, click here:
> <http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=mockodin@...>
>
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: post FOSDEM

Max Kanat-Alexander
In reply to this post by Byron Jones-4
On 02/16/2010 04:32 PM, Byron Jones wrote:
>> [..] If we bundled MySQL also, we could build a DBD::mysql
>
> we can't bundle mysql because bugzilla isn't gpl.

        Hmm, is that actually true? I mean, we can't include it in the same
installer as a non-GPL program? I think that would prevent distros from
shipping both GPL and non-GPL software on the same medium, which isn't
prohibited.

        -Max
--
http://www.everythingsolved.com/
Competent, Friendly Bugzilla and Perl Services. Everything Else, too.
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: post FOSDEM

Byron Jones-4

>>> [..] If we bundled MySQL also, we could build a DBD::mysql
>>
>> we can't bundle mysql because bugzilla isn't gpl.
>
> Hmm, is that actually true? I mean, we can't include it in the same
> installer as a non-GPL program? I think that would prevent distros from
> shipping both GPL and non-GPL software on the same medium, which isn't
> prohibited.

when i was looking at building a windows installer for bugzilla i emailed
mysql for clarification.  the response was that unless the open source
product is licensed as gpl, you're not able to bundle mysql in your
installer.  this was several years ago however.

http://www.mysql.com/about/legal/licensing/index.html

i suspect they have different licensing terms for distros vs open-source
projects.



--

byron.jones :: http://glob.com.au
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: post FOSDEM

Max Kanat-Alexander
On 02/16/2010 06:58 PM, Byron Jones wrote:
> when i was looking at building a windows installer for bugzilla i emailed
> mysql for clarification.  the response was that unless the open source
> product is licensed as gpl, you're not able to bundle mysql in your
> installer.  this was several years ago however.
>
> http://www.mysql.com/about/legal/licensing/index.html
>
> i suspect they have different licensing terms for distros vs open-source
> projects.

        Ohh, no, actually, distros used to have the same problem, I remember
this now! I thought that the FOSS Exception was supposed to resolve this:

        http://www.mysql.com/about/legal/licensing/foss-exception/

        Except that it appears that it only applies to the client libraries.
However, this item in the FSF FAQ:

        http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLCompatInstaller

        Particularly "the installer and the files it installs are separate
works" would be enough for me to suspect that Bugzilla and MySQL, though
both being installed by the same installer, would be considered separate
works. Otherwise no distro could ship GPL'ed software that was installed
by its installer along with GPL-incompatible software (which, I believe,
every distro does).

        -Max
--
http://www.everythingsolved.com/
Competent, Friendly Bugzilla and Perl Services. Everything Else, too.
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: post FOSDEM

Frédéric Buclin
In reply to this post by Joel Peshkin
Le 17. 02. 10 01:48, Joel Peshkin a écrit :
> Would it be reasonable to provide an installer that does the following....
>
> 1) Checks for perl ... if no Perl ...  pop up instructions to install
> Perl first and quit
> 2) Check for perl modules, if modules are missing, ask PPM to install them.
> 3) Prompt the user for Mysql connection information.  Test the
> connection, if it doesn't work, pop up instructions to install/configure
> MySQL
> 4) Offer to start a perl-based Webserver for Bugzilla.


I filed a bug 6 months ago on my local Bugzilla about creating an
installer for Windows. Then I had no time to look at it in greater
details, so I still have no idea whether it's relatively simple or not
to build. When I filed my bug, I had three ideas in mind:
- NSIS
- Inno Setup
- Perl::Win32::GUI on Win32 and Gtk2 on Linux.

Then it seemed to me that NSIS was more powerful than Inno Setup.


I don't think we need to update our installer for each new release. What
I had in mind was to combine the current Bugzilla tarball with the
installer in a single NSIS executable, and the executable would untar
the Bugzilla tarball, then do what Joel proposed:
1) Check for Perl. If no Perl installed, suggest to install it (with a
URL to the download page of ActivePerl). We should only point to the
download page rather than to a specific Perl version so that we always
point to the more recent ActivePerl release.
2) Check for Perl modules, and call PPM itself if needed to install
missing modules.
3) If the MySQL is not running, offer to download it, and offer a URL to
the MySQL download page, again to always point to the more recent release.
4) Same for Apache.

So the installer wouldn't need to be updated as it wouldn't include any
specific software with it. It would simply point to the download pages
of MySQL, Apache and ActivePerl when they are missing.

I don't know if NSIS can do it. Else I don't know how MSI works, but I
would be happy to try. I would just need some free time and why not
someone with some experience with MSI to help. :)

LpSolit
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: post FOSDEM

Jean-Marc Desperrier
In reply to this post by Jean-Marc Desperrier
Max Kanat-Alexander wrote:
> I absolutely care about whether or not it's easy to
> install. It's currently far easier to install on *nix than it is on
> Windows, though, and that's something that I want to fix.

OK, I need to check again under *nix.

- I hope it's now, as much as possible, *obvious* that ImageMagick only
brings a really minor functionality, so that people know that if they
have some problem with it, it's no use spending time solving them

- that the "Just tell me what to install to get everything" option is
clearly documented and the default, in all the doc and not just in some
parts of it

- that the "Just tell me what to install to get everything" option in
fact does *not* really get everything, and instead in the first steps
leads to choosing the db format used, instead of by default leading you
to install everything for every supported db format
_______________________________________________
dev-apps-bugzilla mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-bugzilla
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: post FOSDEM

Frédéric Buclin
Le 17. 02. 10 14:21, Jean-Marc Desperrier a écrit :
> - I hope it's now, as much as possible, *obvious* that ImageMagick only
> brings a really minor functionality

ImageMagick has been removed from Bugzilla 3.6. I moved it into an
extension.

LpSolit
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: post FOSDEM

Dan Wierenga-2
In reply to this post by Byron Jones-4
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Byron Jones <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> when i was looking at building a windows installer for bugzilla i emailed
> mysql for clarification.  the response was that unless the open source
> product is licensed as gpl, you're not able to bundle mysql in your
> installer.  this was several years ago however.

Ok, fine.  MySQL has issues. However, PostgreSQL is released under a
MIT/BSD style license.

The idea of a Windows installer isn't to give the full-fledged
spectrum of choices to the naive Windows user.  The idea is to give
them SOMETHING that's fully supported by the Bugzilla Project, and
give it to them in an easy to install clickable package.

So, the installer gives them Apache, and PostgreSQL, and
ActiveState/Strawberry Perl as well. Those who truly need the
installer won't care what DB or webserver they use, those who like the
installer probably won't either, and those who are technically savvy
enough to not need and not like the installer can configure things
manually.

Sure, it'd be nice if the installer grew to something that offered the
full array of choices (assuming licensing can be worked out in the
future).  But seriously... baby steps!  Let's get SOMETHING working
before we try to get everything working.
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: post FOSDEM

Jean-Marc Desperrier-2
In reply to this post by Jean-Marc Desperrier
On 17/02/2010 14:34, Frédéric Buclin wrote:
> Le 17. 02. 10 14:21, Jean-Marc Desperrier a écrit :
>> - I hope it's now, as much as possible, *obvious* that ImageMagick only
>> brings a really minor functionality
>
> ImageMagick has been removed from Bugzilla 3.6. I moved it into an
> extension.

That's a good thing !
_______________________________________________
dev-apps-bugzilla mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-bugzilla
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: post FOSDEM

Gervase Markham
In reply to this post by Jean-Marc Desperrier
On 16/02/10 21:29, Gabor Szabo wrote:
> On Ubuntu I can just type
>
> $ sudo aptitude install bugzilla3
>
> but I have not tried it yet so I am not sure what will be the end result.

As Max says, the price of that is that Debian rearrange our stuff to
conform to their file system standard, and things have a tendency to
break. :-(

Gerv
_______________________________________________
dev-apps-bugzilla mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-bugzilla
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: post FOSDEM

Gervase Markham
In reply to this post by Jean-Marc Desperrier
On 16/02/10 17:43, Jean-Marc Desperrier wrote:
> At my company, that's one of the reason we're not using it. Not the only
> reason, there's also the fact it had from start the image of being ugly
> looking and complex

This is another complexity penalty we pay, even before people get it
installed and try to use it. Having 20 or more fields on the default
show_bug page scares people away.

> (and based on perl I have to say, but if all the
> rest had been right ...) , but when the person in charge of having a go
> at all the tools tried to install it, failed, spent more time trying,
> failed again, then ended the report with "I couldn't install it", when
> he had had success installing most of the other tools in minutes, it was
> the final nail in the coffin.

It doesn't help that our install documentation is hard to follow due to
layout limitations caused by our technical solution, and that's hard to
fix because the technical solution also makes refactoring it hard. (And
because it's compiled, we review it like code rather than like
documentation - or, at least, we used to last time I tried to refactor it.)

All of these little bumps in the road add up. If people can just install
trac using a single command, many people will just be happy with that.

Gerv
_______________________________________________
dev-apps-bugzilla mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-bugzilla
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: post FOSDEM

Gervase Markham
In reply to this post by Dan Wierenga-2
On 16/02/10 22:31, Max Kanat-Alexander wrote:
> You can't--it depends on the version of MySQL in use. (It might also
> depend on the Windows version in use? I'm not sure. I suspect 32-bit vs.
> 64-bit would be an issue, but Perl is already compiled differently for
> those, so that's not a problem.) If we bundled MySQL also, we could
> build a DBD::mysql. But then if people wanted to use PostgreSQL, they'd
> have a hard time.

If people want to choose particular database software, then this sort of
bundle isn't for them anyway.

I suspect at least 90%, and maybe even 95% of people installing Bugzilla
don't give a stuff which database it uses, they just want it to work. I
myself certainly didn't care when I started hacking on Bugzilla that it
used MySQL as opposed to PostgreSQL. I still use MySQL out of habit, but
it doesn't matter to me.

Gerv

_______________________________________________
dev-apps-bugzilla mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-bugzilla
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: post FOSDEM

Gervase Markham
In reply to this post by Max Kanat-Alexander
On 17/02/10 00:38, Dan Wierenga wrote:
> Hi Max (noticably, not to the list),

There wasn't anything in this email that wasn't list-appropriate. It was
fine to post it (even if it was accidental).

Gerv
_______________________________________________
dev-apps-bugzilla mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-bugzilla
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: post FOSDEM

Byron Jones-4
In reply to this post by Gervase Markham
> I suspect at least 90%, and maybe even 95% of people installing Bugzilla
> don't give a stuff which database it uses, they just want it to work. I
> myself certainly didn't care when I started hacking on Bugzilla that it
> used MySQL as opposed to PostgreSQL. I still use MySQL out of habit, but
> it doesn't matter to me.

i agree that most users won't care about the bundled database, however
there will be a significant impact on support.

as we are currently most familiar with mysql, it would make sense to try
getting mysql as the bundled database first.



--

byron.jones :: http://glob.com.au
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
123