new Mac theme for Firefox 3

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new Mac theme for Firefox 3

Josh Aas-3
Re: bug 397723, New Theme for Mac OS X

I don't have a problem with the content of this theme work in theory
but I find the timing pretty bad. We're a couple weeks out from beta,
now is not the time to be in the *mockup stage* of a major theme
overhaul when our release date has basically already slipped by almost
an entire quarter. Last time we redid the entire theme at the last
minute we ended up shipping with a lot of missing polish and the whole
process was a stressful disaster for everyone. Didn't we learn
anything from that poor planning? What breakdown in the extensive
planning process for Firefox 3 features led to this coming up now?

I'm really worried that if we decide to go for this we're going to
ship the theme with major issues just like we did for Firefox 2. A
huge portion of its theme's problems were caused by the lack of time
and resources for necessary revisions.

Furthermore it is going to add a huge amount of stress to the already
overburdened pool of resource we have for getting this release out the
door. This is going to eat up already-scarce QA and developer time. QA
is already overburdened and we really need more of their help testing
the changes we already made not to mention Firefox 2 and Firefox 3 on
10.5. As for core developers, thinking we can just put in a new theme
without requiring a significant allocation of core development
resources is naive - see bug 303110 for exhibit A, I'm sure there will
be more. That is a major platform feature that we only need for this
theme, and the Mac OS X team has plenty of more fundamental issues to
be working on so we can ship a solid Gecko 1.9 on time.

If we want to improve the theme situation on Mac we can only really
afford to just make minor incremental improvements to the current
theme at this point. That might be too bad but we had a plan, and
adding a whole new theme now is poor planning. We all went over that
Firefox 3 PRD so many times, that was the time to push for this so we
could plan for it. I did bring it up during the PRD process and we
decided not to do a new theme so we could focus on other things like
native form controls (which were our major contribution to visual Mac
OS X platform integration for FF3). We just can't do everything,
especially not this late in the game. Push the schedule back another
couple months (April?) and I'm all for it.

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Re: new Mac theme for Firefox 3

beltzner
On Sep 28, 1:52 am, [hidden email] wrote:
> I don't have a problem with the content of this theme work in theory
> but I find the timing pretty bad. We're a couple weeks out from beta,
> now is not the time to be in the *mockup stage* of a major theme

Josh, I appreciate your concern, and you're right to bring it up, but
I don't think that the timing is as bad as you think it is.

For example, we're way beyond mockup stage. Stephen and Kevin have
been working pretty hard on things for the past few weeks, even though
we only put up a tracking bug recently. There's an in-progress diff
posted to the bug, a patch pending to get unified landed, and from
what I understand, they're almost ready to put the whole thing up for
review and landing.

> overhaul when our release date has basically already slipped by almost
> an entire quarter. Last time we redid the entire theme at the last
> minute we ended up shipping with a lot of missing polish and the whole

Last time it was, indeed, really at the last minute, landing only a
few weeks before Beta 2 (http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox2/
StatusMeetings/2006-08-08) meaning that we had to work out the kinks
mostly in RCs. We're looking to land this before M9 (the earliest
possible beta milestone) after which point we'll have 2 full beta
cycles to deal with polish issues. Also, the people working on the
theme are very experienced with Mac theme work, as opposed to the
vendor for Firefox 2 who was new to theme development (which turned
out to be the issue with that landing which caused the most pain).

The slip to date is an entirely separate issue, and our ship date has
always been "when it's ready" with readiness decided by product
drivers and module owners acting on behalf of and with the feedback of
the entire development team and community.

> process was a stressful disaster for everyone. Didn't we learn
> anything from that poor planning? What breakdown in the extensive
> planning process for Firefox 3 features led to this coming up now?

No breakdown in the planning process, just in my communication
outbound, as I haven't updated the "Makeover!" page in a while with
scope or progress. It's been a P1 PRD item (http://wiki.mozilla.org/
Firefox3/Product_Requirements_Document#P1_10) since the beginning and
I've been mentioning it during the weekly meetings, mconnor's been
talking about it at the Mozilla Project meetings as well.

Now that we have something that's worth reviewing and landing, there's
a bug, and that bug will be treated like any other in terms of review
and approval process.

> I'm really worried that if we decide to go for this we're going to
> ship the theme with major issues just like we did for Firefox 2. A
> huge portion of its theme's problems were caused by the lack of time
> and resources for necessary revisions.

Again, part of the problem there was that it was too late to pull any
changes out, and the people working on it were new to theming, so they
required a lot of help. Neither of those things are true this time
around, so while the concern based on history is warranted, I don't
think it's particularly valid.

> Furthermore it is going to add a huge amount of stress to the already
> overburdened pool of resource we have for getting this release out the
> door. This is going to eat up already-scarce QA and developer time. QA
> is already overburdened and we really need more of their help testing
> the changes we already made not to mention Firefox 2 and Firefox 3 on
> 10.5. As for core developers, thinking we can just put in a new theme
> without requiring a significant allocation of core development
> resources is naive - see bug 303110 for exhibit A, I'm sure there will
> be more. That is a major platform feature that we only need for this
> theme, and the Mac OS X team has plenty of more fundamental issues to
> be working on so we can ship a solid Gecko 1.9 on time.

As far as I know, that bug is the only one that's required to make
this theme work. If there's evidence of this becoming a major time
sink, or if you need someone else to review that bug, please let us
know. For now, I'd appreciate it if you'd consider this to be a front-
end M9 blocker, since it does relate back to a P1 issue. Connor and I
talked about this for a long time when 303110 was nominated for
triage, and we ended up deciding (mconnor arguing for it more than me,
perhaps surprisingly!) that the lack of unified toolbar was a
significant barrier to our uptake on OSX, which is a "mover and
shaker" audience in terms of computer industry influencers. So there's
some strategic importance here, not just a desire to gussy up the
front end :)

cheers,
mike

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Re: new Mac theme for Firefox 3

L. David Baron
On Friday 2007-09-28 12:10 -0700, Mike Beltzner wrote:
> Last time it was, indeed, really at the last minute, landing only a
> few weeks before Beta 2 (http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox2/
> StatusMeetings/2006-08-08) meaning that we had to work out the kinks
> mostly in RCs. We're looking to land this before M9 (the earliest
> possible beta milestone) after which point we'll have 2 full beta
> cycles to deal with polish issues. Also, the people working on the
> theme are very experienced with Mac theme work, as opposed to the
> vendor for Firefox 2 who was new to theme development (which turned
> out to be the issue with that landing which caused the most pain).

Speaking of which, what ever happened to fixing the performance
regressions from that landing [1]?  (This is one of the reasons some
of us are skeptical about promises to fix performance regressions
from front-end landings "later".)

And are there any plans to consider some of the other feedback about
those new theme changes, like [2]?

-David

[1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=353757
[2] http://dbaron.org/log/2006-09#e20060921a

--
L. David Baron                                 http://dbaron.org/
Mozilla Corporation                       http://www.mozilla.com/
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Re: new Mac theme for Firefox 3

Josh Aas-3
In reply to this post by beltzner
On Sep 28, 3:10 pm, Mike Beltzner <[hidden email]> wrote:
> For example, we're way beyond mockup stage. Stephen and Kevin have
> been working pretty hard on things for the past few weeks, even though
> we only put up a tracking bug recently. There's an in-progress diff
> posted to the bug, a patch pending to get unified landed, and from
> what I understand, they're almost ready to put the whole thing up for
> review and landing.

I didn't see any diffs or anything other than a mockup on the bug when
I looked. What bug are you talking about?

The patch pending for unified toolbar, if it is acceptable at all, is
most likely going to require at least a couple more revisions and even
when it lands I'm going to predict that we end up having at least 3-5
more serious followup bugs to fix related to that. Its not as simple
as "we have a patch." I'm also pretty sure that won't end up being the
only bug that comes out of this. That's most likely a nice handful of
blockers added to our list because of the theme.

> Last time it was, indeed, really at the last minute, landing only a
> few weeks before Beta 2 (http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox2/
> StatusMeetings/2006-08-08) meaning that we had to work out the kinks
> mostly in RCs. We're looking to land this before M9

Going from doing this in beta 2 to the tail end of the beta 1 cycle
doesn't seem like enough of an improvement. We're talking 3-4 weeks
time difference here. My feeling is that this work should be done when
the rest of us are expected to have our major features completed.

> Also, the people working on the
> theme are very experienced with Mac theme work, as opposed to the
> vendor for Firefox 2 who was new to theme development (which turned
> out to be the issue with that landing which caused the most pain).

This is comforting news indeed! I wasn't aware of who was working on
this because the bug I saw basically had no information except for
mockup screenshots.

> The slip to date is an entirely separate issue, and our ship date has
> always been "when it's ready" with readiness decided by product
> drivers and module owners acting on behalf of and with the feedback of
> the entire development team and community.

That's a pretty fluffy argument. Of course we don't ship until we're
ready but we set planned ship dates for a reason, which is so we can
help both users and developers plan in the preceding year or so. We
can't just keep adding new features while ignoring the schedule
because "it's OK, we won't ship until we're ready anyway!" or we
defeat the purpose of setting a date in the first place.

Clearly we shipped before the theme was ready last time because
everything else was ready and our release date constraints trumped the
lack of theme polish. So it hasn't "always been 'when it's ready'"
realistically. The Firefox 2 theme was only "ready" in the sense that
it didn't practically impede functionality. That's not a good bar to
set.

> As far as I know, that bug is the only one that's required to make
> this theme work. If there's evidence of this becoming a major time
> sink, or if you need someone else to review that bug, please let us
> know. For now, I'd appreciate it if you'd consider this to be a front-
> end M9 blocker, since it does relate back to a P1 issue.

See above about how much developer time this is probably going to
involve (though I hope you're right   since apparently we're going
forward with this). QA is still going to have to spend a bunch of
extra time on this, as are you and other front-end developers. That
stuff doesn't involve me directly but since all of those people are so
critical to a great release I hate to see them even more overburdened
than they already are.

> Connor and I
> talked about this for a long time when 303110 was nominated for
> triage, and we ended up deciding (mconnor arguing for it more than me,
> perhaps surprisingly!) that the lack of unified toolbar was a
> significant barrier to our uptake on OSX, which is a "mover and
> shaker" audience in terms of computer industry influencers. So there's
> some strategic importance here, not just a desire to gussy up the
> front end :)

Like I said, I don't have any issues with what you're trying to do,
there are many reasons this is a good idea, my only problems are with
the timing and communication. Those issues aside, I really like the
execution I'm seeing so far. Looks great!

-Josh

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Re: new Mac theme for Firefox 3

Mike Connor-4

On 28-Sep-07, at 4:11 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> I didn't see any diffs or anything other than a mockup on the bug when
> I looked. What bug are you talking about?

There was another bug that was restricted due to some communication  
snafus, so we split this off and started over.  We're waiting on  
Kevin to finish up the sidebar/tab bar/findbar theming and we'll have  
a real patch.  That's looking like this weekend, so I'm hoping to get  
things in good shape

> The patch pending for unified toolbar, if it is acceptable at all, is
> most likely going to require at least a couple more revisions and even
> when it lands I'm going to predict that we end up having at least 3-5
> more serious followup bugs to fix related to that. Its not as simple
> as "we have a patch." I'm also pretty sure that won't end up being the
> only bug that comes out of this. That's most likely a nice handful of
> blockers added to our list because of the theme.

I think that's possible, but anything we might do will add blockers  
if the platform has limitations.

> Going from doing this in beta 2 to the tail end of the beta 1 cycle
> doesn't seem like enough of an improvement. We're talking 3-4 weeks
> time difference here. My feeling is that this work should be done when
> the rest of us are expected to have our major features completed.

If we were only doing two betas, sure.  We're in the midst of a  
longer cycle than Fx2, we're expecting three betas, and we're going  
to be landing in better shape than we did then.  Don't think for a  
second that I'm making light of the overhead in doing theme work, I  
was where that buck stopped last year, and I basically lost a month  
of my life to getting it done.  I wouldn't have greenlighted this  
work if I wasn't very confident that the risk could be contained.

> This is comforting news indeed! I wasn't aware of who was working on
> this because the bug I saw basically had no information except for
> mockup screenshots.

Its Kevin Gerich and Stephen Horlander, FWIW.  They have done every  
Mac Firefox and Thunderbird theme rev except for Firefox 2, and the  
Windows 1.0/1.5 theme revs, and Kevin's had CVS access since forever,  
so there isn't a lot of overhead on developers.  QA will likely need  
to poke and prod a little, but our Mac users will pick stuff apart  
and pick up issues in great detail, so I don't think QA needs to  
devote a ton of resources here.

> See above about how much developer time this is probably going to
> involve (though I hope you're right   since apparently we're going
> forward with this). QA is still going to have to spend a bunch of
> extra time on this, as are you and other front-end developers. That
> stuff doesn't involve me directly but since all of those people are so
> critical to a great release I hate to see them even more overburdened
> than they already are.

I think we're containing and scoping this well.  I'm the one with a  
target on his chest if this blows up, but I don't expect that to be  
the case.

-- Mike


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Re: new Mac theme for Firefox 3

Robert Kaiser
In reply to this post by beltzner
Mike Beltzner wrote:
> For example, we're way beyond mockup stage. Stephen and Kevin have
> been working pretty hard on things for the past few weeks, even though
> we only put up a tracking bug recently. There's an in-progress diff
> posted to the bug, a patch pending to get unified landed, and from
> what I understand, they're almost ready to put the whole thing up for
> review and landing.

I hope that
1) most of the stuff concerning look of platform things is actually done
via nsITheme and not another hacky hardcoded override such as we already
have for Mac toolbars right now and
2) this is done in a way that other apps that don't have a special Mac
icon theme will still look alright.

Robert Kaiser

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Re: new Mac theme for Firefox 3

Mike Connor-4
In reply to this post by L. David Baron

On 28-Sep-07, at 3:37 PM, L. David Baron wrote:

> On Friday 2007-09-28 12:10 -0700, Mike Beltzner wrote:
>> Last time it was, indeed, really at the last minute, landing only a
>> few weeks before Beta 2 (http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox2/
>> StatusMeetings/2006-08-08) meaning that we had to work out the kinks
>> mostly in RCs. We're looking to land this before M9 (the earliest
>> possible beta milestone) after which point we'll have 2 full beta
>> cycles to deal with polish issues. Also, the people working on the
>> theme are very experienced with Mac theme work, as opposed to the
>> vendor for Firefox 2 who was new to theme development (which turned
>> out to be the issue with that landing which caused the most pain).
>
> Speaking of which, what ever happened to fixing the performance
> regressions from that landing [1]?  (This is one of the reasons some
> of us are skeptical about promises to fix performance regressions
> from front-end landings "later".)

Its pretty hard at this point to identify how much of a regression  
there is/isn't at this point.  We never really got a concrete answer  
on what was and was not causing the regression, the leading suspects  
were poor perf using transparent images, which cairo was expected to  
nullify to some extent, and the general XUL/CSS/image overhead  
involved in rendering the tabstrip, including having to use images  
instead of -moz-border-radius.  This is planned to be cleaned up [1]  
for Firefox 3 (I haven't forgotten, its just been simmering for a  
while longer than expected).

> And are there any plans to consider some of the other feedback about
> those new theme changes, like [2]?

Right now  there's no plans to change revisit the tabstrip look and  
feel on Windows/Linux for Firefox 3.  There's been overall positive  
feedback on the change, and at least on Windows (last I looked) none  
of the tabbed browsers used tabbox-style native tabs where we used to  
(the orange on XP looked old, actually).  On GNOME that's a little  
different, but until we go with stock icons for the closebutton as  
well that tends to randomly look strange and mismatched, which is  
part of why we changed there as well.  There's a lot of discussion  
about what direction to go in on Linux with the theme, I think it'd  
be quite interesting to switch to a pure stock tabs and icons setup,  
but that's not in scope for Firefox 3.

-- Mike

[1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387345


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Re: new Mac theme for Firefox 3

Mike Connor-4
In reply to this post by Robert Kaiser

On 28-Sep-07, at 6:04 PM, Robert Kaiser wrote:

> Mike Beltzner wrote:
>> For example, we're way beyond mockup stage. Stephen and Kevin have
>> been working pretty hard on things for the past few weeks, even  
>> though
>> we only put up a tracking bug recently. There's an in-progress diff
>> posted to the bug, a patch pending to get unified landed, and from
>> what I understand, they're almost ready to put the whole thing up for
>> review and landing.
>
> I hope that
> 1) most of the stuff concerning look of platform things is actually  
> done
> via nsITheme and not another hacky hardcoded override such as we  
> already
> have for Mac toolbars right now

Do we have nsITheme support for leopard-style dark unified?  We  
don't, afaik, and I don't expect to get that for 1.9.

Defaults can be overridden by apps, there's nothing truly hardcoded  
in toolkit by any standard I'd consider hardcoded.

> and
> 2) this is done in a way that other apps that don't have a special Mac
> icon theme will still look alright.

We'll see how Kevin's doing it, but we've always had this issue with  
toolkit to some extent for anyone depending on the base styling.  I  
don't know what the right answer is here, since I don't think there's  
a definiive look that something like -moz-appearance could provide  
and work well on different versions/apps.

-- Mike


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Re: new Mac theme for Firefox 3

Justin Dolske-2
In reply to this post by beltzner
Mike Beltzner wrote:

> Last time it was, indeed, really at the last minute, landing only a
> few weeks before Beta 2 (http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox2/
> StatusMeetings/2006-08-08) meaning that we had to work out the kinks
> mostly in RCs.

I'm second-handwaving a bit here, but... My impression of the FF2 theme
work was that it involved (or was in parallel-with) some fairly deep,
major changes to how the UI's XUL was structured (eg, tabs and the tab
strip). From what I've heard of the FF3 theme work, there's a effort
constrain the changes to avoid what happened with FF2. [Hence the
original title of "visual refresh" and not "new FF3 theme".]

The draft patch I saw was mostly CSS changes (and images), and was
actually smaller than the current theme... :-)

browser/themes/pinstripe/browser/browser.css (-445/+175 lines)
browser/themes/pinstripe/browser/browser.xml (-13/+27 lines)
browser/themes/pinstripe/browser/jar.mn (-1/+2 lines)
browser/themes/pinstripe/browser/searchbar.css (-20/+11 lines)

Justin
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Re: new Mac theme for Firefox 3

Robert Kaiser
Justin Dolske wrote:
> The draft patch I saw was mostly CSS changes (and images), and was
> actually smaller than the current theme... :-)
>
> browser/themes/pinstripe/browser/browser.css (-445/+175 lines)
> browser/themes/pinstripe/browser/browser.xml (-13/+27 lines)
> browser/themes/pinstripe/browser/jar.mn (-1/+2 lines)
> browser/themes/pinstripe/browser/searchbar.css (-20/+11 lines)

Wow, only in browser/? Then I probably just can ignore it ;-)

Robert Kaiser

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Re: new Mac theme for Firefox 3

Robert Kaiser
In reply to this post by Robert Kaiser
Mike Connor wrote:

> On 28-Sep-07, at 6:04 PM, Robert Kaiser wrote:
>> I hope that
>> 1) most of the stuff concerning look of platform things is actually done
>> via nsITheme and not another hacky hardcoded override such as we already
>> have for Mac toolbars right now
>
> Do we have nsITheme support for leopard-style dark unified?  We don't,
> afaik, and I don't expect to get that for 1.9.
>
> Defaults can be overridden by apps, there's nothing truly hardcoded in
> toolkit by any standard I'd consider hardcoded.

Well, for one thing, we probably should fit in well with Tiger as well
as Leopard, as I think the former will still be around for a while.
For the other, I think there was such a thing as different customizable
themes and/or system colors in OS X just like there are on other OSes,
and such customizations tend to make non-nsITheme stuff look out of
place usually. But then such customizations may very well be so
underused on Mac that we just can ignore them on that platform.

Robert Kaiser

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Re: new Mac theme for Firefox 3

Mike Beltzner
On 28-Sep-07, at 9:09 PM, Robert Kaiser wrote:

> Well, for one thing, we probably should fit in well with Tiger as well
> as Leopard, as I think the former will still be around for a while.

I actually disagree here. Uptake on new versions of OSX is pretty  
quick in the Mac world, and the primary OSX applications (iWork,  
iLife, iTunes) have already started to take on Leopard-like appearance.

> For the other, I think there was such a thing as different  
> customizable
> themes and/or system colors in OS X just like there are on other OSes,
> and such customizations tend to make non-nsITheme stuff look out of
> place usually. But then such customizations may very well be so
> underused on Mac that we just can ignore them on that platform.

Yup, I'm pretty sure that's the right way to look at things.

cheers,
mike
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Re: new Mac theme for Firefox 3

Alex Faaborg-3
In reply to this post by Robert Kaiser
> Well, for one thing, we probably should fit in well with Tiger as well
> as Leopard, as I think the former will still be around for a while.

iTunes is currently using the Leopard look on Tiger, so there is some  
precedent for us having the same appearance on both versions.  Also,  
there are a lot of little differences, so without doing things like  
creating two different sets of toolbar buttons, we would just end up  
creating some type of Leopard-Tiger hybrid app.  I think internal  
consistency problems are usually more jarring than external  
consistency problems.

> such customizations may very well be so
> underused on Mac that we just can ignore them on that platform.

My impression is that themers will be able to change the color of the  
unified toolbar if they want, but you're right that Firefox isn't  
going to immediately reflect customizations to the OS theme.  
However, spending an incredible amount of time for such a small  
fraction of our user base doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.

-Alex


On Sep 28, 2007, at 6:09 PM, Robert Kaiser wrote:

> Mike Connor wrote:
>> On 28-Sep-07, at 6:04 PM, Robert Kaiser wrote:
>>> I hope that
>>> 1) most of the stuff concerning look of platform things is  
>>> actually done
>>> via nsITheme and not another hacky hardcoded override such as we  
>>> already
>>> have for Mac toolbars right now
>>
>> Do we have nsITheme support for leopard-style dark unified?  We  
>> don't,
>> afaik, and I don't expect to get that for 1.9.
>>
>> Defaults can be overridden by apps, there's nothing truly  
>> hardcoded in
>> toolkit by any standard I'd consider hardcoded.
>
> Well, for one thing, we probably should fit in well with Tiger as well
> as Leopard, as I think the former will still be around for a while.
> For the other, I think there was such a thing as different  
> customizable
> themes and/or system colors in OS X just like there are on other OSes,
> and such customizations tend to make non-nsITheme stuff look out of
> place usually. But then such customizations may very well be so
> underused on Mac that we just can ignore them on that platform.
>
> Robert Kaiser
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-planning mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-planning

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Re: new Mac theme for Firefox 3

Michael Lefevre
In reply to this post by beltzner
On 2007-09-28, Mike Beltzner <[hidden email]> wrote:
[snip]
> For example, we're way beyond mockup stage. Stephen and Kevin have
> been working pretty hard on things for the past few weeks, even though
> we only put up a tracking bug recently. There's an in-progress diff
> posted to the bug, a patch pending to get unified landed, and from
> what I understand, they're almost ready to put the whole thing up for
> review and landing.

Which bug has an in-progress diff? As far as I can see from bug 397723, so
far there are only PNG images of mockups, which only appeared last
Wednesday, and as of yesterday various people (other than Stephen and
Kevin) are still throwing around different mockup ideas, including UI
changes, on the wiki and discussing them in the bug.  If things are as far
along as you say, then someone should put that info on the bug and/or on
the wiki page...

--
Michael
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Re: new Mac theme for Firefox 3

Mike Pinkerton
>From what I've seen of the mockups, it looks like an extremely cluttered
Safari clone. Shouldn't there be a movement to keep it clean and simple?

On 9/29/07, Michael Lefevre <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 2007-09-28, Mike Beltzner <[hidden email]> wrote:
> [snip]
> > For example, we're way beyond mockup stage. Stephen and Kevin have
> > been working pretty hard on things for the past few weeks, even though
> > we only put up a tracking bug recently. There's an in-progress diff
> > posted to the bug, a patch pending to get unified landed, and from
> > what I understand, they're almost ready to put the whole thing up for
> > review and landing.
>
> Which bug has an in-progress diff? As far as I can see from bug 397723, so
> far there are only PNG images of mockups, which only appeared last
> Wednesday, and as of yesterday various people (other than Stephen and
> Kevin) are still throwing around different mockup ideas, including UI
> changes, on the wiki and discussing them in the bug.  If things are as far
> along as you say, then someone should put that info on the bug and/or on
> the wiki page...
>
> --
> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> dev-planning mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-planning
>
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Re: new Mac theme for Firefox 3

Rob Sayre-2
In reply to this post by Michael Lefevre
Mike Pinkerton wrote:
>>From what I've seen of the mockups, it looks like an extremely cluttered

It looks somewhat cluttered.

> Safari clone.

I agree that it loses a bit of the Firefox personality, and comes off a
little cold. Looks more like iTunes than Safari, though.

> Shouldn't there be a movement to keep it clean and simple?

Well, there should be concrete criticism and steps taken to reduce the
clutter. Here's what I think about the current mockup; see if you agree
or disagree. Let's use this attachment as an example:

<https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=282748>

* Overall background colors/gradients work well.

* Button icons are a little too much like Safari. I really like Safari's
back/forward button layout, and I want to keep that part. Glad the drop
arrows around the buttons are gone. Icons with a little more whimsy
would probably fit us better.

* Button icons are not vertically aligned, or appear that way because
the shapes have different weights.

* Too many favicons. Nonverbal queues are good, but we have to be
careful not to cover our interface in ugly little bitmaps. For one
thing, we could switch to using the magnifying glass as a selection
mechanism for search engines, like Camino does. This would make the
search box fit OS X better.

* Roundy widget in search box is pretty ugly and noisy. Reminds me of
controls

* Right side of URL bar is way busy. In particular, the star feature is
really in-your-face.

* Drop shadow on search box is different than location bar.

* Don't like that little thing next to the single bookmark. Is it a
chain? Users know those words are links, so we don't need an icon.

* Not too clear what's going on the right side of the tabstrip. Some
combination of a dropdown and sliding, I take it. Doesn't pair up with
the left side very well, which has no little divider around the arrow.

- Rob
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Re: new Mac theme for Firefox 3

Mike Beltzner
On 30-Sep-07, at 4:43 PM, Robert Sayre wrote:

>> Well, there should be concrete criticism and steps taken to reduce  
>> the
> clutter. Here's what I think about the current mockup; see if you  
> agree
> or disagree. Let's use this attachment as an example:

As much as I want to encourage this sort of discussion, dev-planning  
is the wrong newsgroup/mailing list for this sort of feedback.

There's been some discussion in the bug (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/ 
show_bug.cgi?id=397723), and a lot of alternative ideas and debate on  
a wiki page (http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox3/Theme/MacOSX) linked to  
from that bug. Let's try to keep the discussion in those forums, or  
if email/NNTP is your preference, in dev-apps-firefox.

cheers,
mike
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Re: new Mac theme for Firefox 3

Mike Pinkerton
Part of my point was that if we're still having these types of discussions,
isn't it a little late to be pushing this in?

On 10/1/07, Mike Beltzner <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 30-Sep-07, at 4:43 PM, Robert Sayre wrote:
>
> >> Well, there should be concrete criticism and steps taken to reduce
> >> the
> > clutter. Here's what I think about the current mockup; see if you
> > agree
> > or disagree. Let's use this attachment as an example:
>
> As much as I want to encourage this sort of discussion, dev-planning
> is the wrong newsgroup/mailing list for this sort of feedback.
>
> There's been some discussion in the bug (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/
> show_bug.cgi?id=397723), and a lot of alternative ideas and debate on
> a wiki page (http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox3/Theme/MacOSX) linked to
> from that bug. Let's try to keep the discussion in those forums, or
> if email/NNTP is your preference, in dev-apps-firefox.
>
> cheers,
> mike
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> dev-planning mailing list
> [hidden email]
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Re: new Mac theme for Firefox 3

Mike Shaver
On 10/1/07, Mike Pinkerton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Part of my point was that if we're still having these types of discussions,
> isn't it a little late to be pushing this in?

That part of your point was pretty hard to detect in your original
message (about clutter and Safari and the need for a movement), I must
admit.  We'll always be having these discussions, so waiting for them
to subside before checking things in is a recipe for never shipping.
People are still giving feedback on the Fx2 theme, for example!

Mike
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Re: new Mac theme for Firefox 3

Mike Beltzner
In reply to this post by Mike Pinkerton
On 1-Oct-07, at 1:18 PM, Mike Pinkerton wrote:

> Part of my point was that if we're still having these types of  
> discussions, isn't it a little late to be pushing this in?

If we were only having discussions, and hadn't gotten a start on  
implementation with the core ideals (unified toolbar, more mac-native  
look and feel for widgets) then yes, since we'd be talking about  
vapor-ware.

We've got experienced people working on a good direction. Getting  
feedback and new ideas is fantastic at this stage, IMO. As Shaver  
pointed out, though, waiting for discussion and debate on a new theme  
to achieve closure or conclusion is perhaps the best way to ensure it  
never changes! :)

cheers,
mike

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