/l10n repository frozen for Firefox 3 Beta 5

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/l10n repository frozen for Firefox 3 Beta 5

Axel Hecht
Hi all,

as announced previously, we're locking down the l10n rep for Beta 5 now.

After Beta 5 is cut, there will be another landing window. We'll follow
up on that later, when we know more. Something in the order of 2-3 weeks
until RC1 freeze date, though.

If you have stuff to land that does block Beta 5, please have a bug for
that specific issue and make it block
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=423635. Mic, I, or someone
else from the usual suspects will take a look and either approve or not
that check-in.

There are still some patches landing on the code side, though nothing of
l10n impact, of course.

On the l10n side, we'll be using the time to create the list of shipped
locales.

Thanks, and to those that care, happy easter.

Axel
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Re: /l10n repository frozen for Firefox 3 Beta 5

Rimas Kudelis-3
Hi Axel,

is mail/ also locked?

RQ


Axel Hecht rašė:

> Hi all,
>
> as announced previously, we're locking down the l10n rep for Beta 5 now.
>
> After Beta 5 is cut, there will be another landing window. We'll follow
> up on that later, when we know more. Something in the order of 2-3 weeks
> until RC1 freeze date, though.
>
> If you have stuff to land that does block Beta 5, please have a bug for
> that specific issue and make it block
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=423635. Mic, I, or someone
> else from the usual suspects will take a look and either approve or not
> that check-in.
>
> There are still some patches landing on the code side, though nothing of
> l10n impact, of course.
>
> On the l10n side, we'll be using the time to create the list of shipped
> locales.
>
> Thanks, and to those that care, happy easter.
>
> Axel
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Re: /l10n repository frozen for Firefox 3 Beta 5

Damjan Georgievski
In reply to this post by Axel Hecht
> After Beta 5 is cut, there will be another landing window. We'll follow
> up on that later, when we know more. Something in the order of 2-3 weeks
> until RC1 freeze date, though.

Do you expect there'll be a landing window for l10n after RC1?
Or the 2-3 weeks after b5 will be the last?


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Re: /l10n repository frozen for Firefox 3 Beta 5

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by Rimas Kudelis-3
Rimas Kudelis wrote:
> Hi Axel,
>
> is mail/ also locked?

I'd rather see you not check in to mail or suite. That's as rude as I get.

Is there a lot going on there?

Axel

> Axel Hecht rašė:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> as announced previously, we're locking down the l10n rep for Beta 5 now.
>>
>> After Beta 5 is cut, there will be another landing window. We'll follow
>> up on that later, when we know more. Something in the order of 2-3 weeks
>> until RC1 freeze date, though.
>>
>> If you have stuff to land that does block Beta 5, please have a bug for
>> that specific issue and make it block
>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=423635. Mic, I, or someone
>> else from the usual suspects will take a look and either approve or not
>> that check-in.
>>
>> There are still some patches landing on the code side, though nothing of
>> l10n impact, of course.
>>
>> On the l10n side, we'll be using the time to create the list of shipped
>> locales.
>>
>> Thanks, and to those that care, happy easter.
>>
>> Axel
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Re: /l10n repository frozen for Firefox 3 Beta 5

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by Damjan Georgievski
Damjan Georgievski wrote:
>> After Beta 5 is cut, there will be another landing window. We'll follow
>> up on that later, when we know more. Something in the order of 2-3 weeks
>> until RC1 freeze date, though.
>
> Do you expect there'll be a landing window for l10n after RC1?
> Or the 2-3 weeks after b5 will be the last?

An RC is a release candidate. There shouldn't be any scheduled work to
happen after RC1. It's a tad unrealistic to say that we're only going to
need one RC, but the point of an RC is that it's a release candidate,
not a milestone to get there.

Thus, don't plan for work to happen post RC1, web-work withstanding.
I'll let Pascal detail on that.

Axel
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Re: /l10n repository frozen for Firefox 3 Beta 5

Rimas Kudelis-3
In reply to this post by Axel Hecht
Axel Hecht rašė:
> Rimas Kudelis wrote:
>> Hi Axel,
>>
>> is mail/ also locked?
>
> I'd rather see you not check in to mail or suite. That's as rude as I get.
>
> Is there a lot going on there?


No, not much. Only one checkin so far.

Rimas
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Re: /l10n repository frozen for Firefox 3 Beta 5

Simon Paquet-3
In reply to this post by Axel Hecht
Axel Hecht wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>as announced previously, we're locking down the l10n rep for Beta 5 now.

Since when do you have the authority to lockdown the whole l10n
repository just for one single application? Did I miss the "Firefox
Superiority" post here or elsewhere?

As far as I'm concerned (and I'm speaking for the Calendar Project here)
calendar is still open and will stay open for l10n checkins.

If you want to lockdown the repository in the future, then please try to
coordinate this with me beforehand, if you want calendar to be part of
the lockdown.

Simon
--
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Calendar Website Maintainer: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar
Calendar developer blog:     http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/calendar
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Re: /l10n repository frozen for Firefox 3 Beta 5

Axel Hecht
Simon Paquet wrote:

> Axel Hecht wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> as announced previously, we're locking down the l10n rep for Beta 5 now.
>
> Since when do you have the authority to lockdown the whole l10n
> repository just for one single application? Did I miss the "Firefox
> Superiority" post here or elsewhere?
>
> As far as I'm concerned (and I'm speaking for the Calendar Project here)
> calendar is still open and will stay open for l10n checkins.
>
> If you want to lockdown the repository in the future, then please try to
> coordinate this with me beforehand, if you want calendar to be part of
> the lockdown.
>
> Simon

I didn't, the Firefox release team did. Take this up with beltzner?

Axel
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Re: /l10n repository frozen for Firefox 3 Beta 5

Robert Kaiser
In reply to this post by Axel Hecht
Axel Hecht wrote:
> Rimas Kudelis wrote:
>> Hi Axel,
>>
>> is mail/ also locked?
>
> I'd rather see you not check in to mail or suite. That's as rude as I get.
>
> Is there a lot going on there?

There may be at any time, as the main CVS tree is in no way restricted
for those at the moment.

So I hope such times where you want everything in l10n/ closed are kept
down to one or two days at max at any time in any development cycle.

Robert Kaiser
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Re: /l10n repository frozen for Firefox 3 Beta 5

Axel Hecht
Robert Kaiser wrote:

> Axel Hecht wrote:
>> Rimas Kudelis wrote:
>>> Hi Axel,
>>>
>>> is mail/ also locked?
>>
>> I'd rather see you not check in to mail or suite. That's as rude as I
>> get.
>>
>> Is there a lot going on there?
>
> There may be at any time, as the main CVS tree is in no way restricted
> for those at the moment.
>
> So I hope such times where you want everything in l10n/ closed are kept
> down to one or two days at max at any time in any development cycle.
>
> Robert Kaiser

If you guys have suggestions, or even patches, on how to close down just
one app, I'm all ears. I haven't come up with something that doesn't suck.

Axel
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Re: /l10n repository frozen for Firefox 3 Beta 5

Robert Kaiser
Axel Hecht wrote:
> If you guys have suggestions, or even patches, on how to close down just
> one app, I'm all ears. I haven't come up with something that doesn't suck.

I don't yet know the problem you have with checkins going into the L10n
repository - on the main CVS tree there seems to be no problem with
checkins going on in non-Firefox directories while a FF freeze is going on.

Robert Kaiser
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Re: /l10n repository frozen for Firefox 3 Beta 5

Damjan Georgievski
In reply to this post by Axel Hecht
>>> After Beta 5 is cut, there will be another landing window. We'll follow
>>> up on that later, when we know more. Something in the order of 2-3 weeks
>>> until RC1 freeze date, though.
>>
>> Do you expect there'll be a landing window for l10n after RC1?
>> Or the 2-3 weeks after b5 will be the last?
>
> An RC is a release candidate. There shouldn't be any scheduled work to
> happen after RC1.

yeah but a code freeze and l10n freeze is not the same thing...
You can't realistically test all of the l10n with non-finished code!

The thing is, I expect to have much more testers with the RC1 release, so
that will surrely mean much more input on the l10n front too.


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Re: /l10n repository frozen for Firefox 3 Beta 5

Simon Paquet-3
In reply to this post by Robert Kaiser
Robert Kaiser wrote:

>Axel Hecht wrote:
>> If you guys have suggestions, or even patches, on how to close down just
>> one app, I'm all ears. I haven't come up with something that doesn't suck.
>
>I don't yet know the problem you have with checkins going into the L10n
>repository - on the main CVS tree there seems to be no problem with
>checkins going on in non-Firefox directories while a FF freeze is going on.

I raised this issue in mozilla.dev.planning. Here's Mike Shaver's take on
the situation:

|Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
|From: "Mike Shaver" <[hidden email]>
|Subject: Re: Tree locking down tonight for Beta 5 bake-off!
|
|On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Simon Paquet <[hidden email]> wrote:
|>  |I didn't, the Firefox release team did. Take this up with beltzner?
|>
|>  If I read something into this, that's clearly not there, then please tell
|>  me, but for me, this sounds an awful lot like "Tree is closed. Period."
|>  And this message seems to come (according to Axel) from the Firefox
|>  release team and not from him personally.
|
|I am 100% certain that Beltzner has the same position on this that I
|do.  We release drivers must have erred and miscommunicated to Axel,
|for which I apologize (to him and you, and to localizers
|inconvenienced by the misunderstanding).
|
|Please localize and develop and commit to your hearts' content in
|non-Firefox code -- subject to whatever strictures may be place for
|other apps, of course!

So, the lockdown does only affect strings for Firefox (e.g. browser,
toolkit, dom, netwerk, security, dom).

It does not affect the other apps, so strings for calendar, suite, mail
or mailnews can be changed by localizers.

Simon
--
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Calendar Website Maintainer: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar
Calendar developer blog:     http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/calendar
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Re: /l10n repository frozen for Firefox 3 Beta 5

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by Damjan Georgievski
Damjan Georgievski wrote:

>>>> After Beta 5 is cut, there will be another landing window. We'll follow
>>>> up on that later, when we know more. Something in the order of 2-3 weeks
>>>> until RC1 freeze date, though.
>>> Do you expect there'll be a landing window for l10n after RC1?
>>> Or the 2-3 weeks after b5 will be the last?
>> An RC is a release candidate. There shouldn't be any scheduled work to
>> happen after RC1.
>
> yeah but a code freeze and l10n freeze is not the same thing...
> You can't realistically test all of the l10n with non-finished code!
>
> The thing is, I expect to have much more testers with the RC1 release, so
> that will surrely mean much more input on the l10n front too.

If there are tricks with which we can get you more coverage and exposure
on B5, and thus testers, we should use those.

The RC is going to be an RC, and unless you come back to us with
"please, please, that's embarrassing, don't ship", we'd want to take it
from the point of view that we'd be able to ship it. The "don't ship"
would mean that we'd either have to have another cycle of l10n builds on
3.0, which is hard, or wait for 3.0.1, or whatever it's called.

Axel
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Re: /l10n repository frozen for Firefox 3 Beta 5

Damjan Georgievski
>> The thing is, I expect to have much more testers with the RC1 release, so
>> that will surrely mean much more input on the l10n front too.
>
> If there are tricks with which we can get you more coverage and exposure
> on B5, and thus testers, we should use those.

I don't know af any.

Anyway, at least you (mozilla, whoever) should make sure l10n checkins would
be imidiatelly allowed for 3.0.1. This was a problem with 2.0 when l10n
updates were not allowed for some time after 2.0 shipped. KDE and Gnome
follow this practice for ex. After a major release there's a .1 release
that mostly updates l10n.



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Re: /l10n repository frozen for Firefox 3 Beta 5

Axel Hecht
Damjan Georgievski wrote:

>>> The thing is, I expect to have much more testers with the RC1 release, so
>>> that will surrely mean much more input on the l10n front too.
>> If there are tricks with which we can get you more coverage and exposure
>> on B5, and thus testers, we should use those.
>
> I don't know af any.
>
> Anyway, at least you (mozilla, whoever) should make sure l10n checkins would
> be imidiatelly allowed for 3.0.1. This was a problem with 2.0 when l10n
> updates were not allowed for some time after 2.0 shipped. KDE and Gnome
> follow this practice for ex. After a major release there's a .1 release
> that mostly updates l10n.

I don't really mind what KDE and Gnome do. To me, an open tree implies
an opt-in for the following milestone/release. Our dot releases are for
security and stability, and I don't see us taking any chances in opening
the tree and then not being able to push out a security update.

This goes by the same argument that I gave in my reply to Cedric's post,
we just can't tell if something's broken or not by just looking at
tinderbox. I'm not a great friend of those approvals myself, as it's me
who's doing them. But I do find bugs in the patches, so it's not just an
academic thing.

 From another point of view, we're shipping the 5th localized milestone
in a bit for some of our languages. Granted, the first for Mongolian.

If you, or others, think that your 3.0 final release will receive a
significant amount of feedback and changes for 3.0.1, maybe we should
open the discussion on whether to release all languages that are green
as final localizations, or if we should add some set of languages as
Beta. I'm not picking on Mongolian here, but there are a bunch of other
languages in CVS that are shipping for the first time, or haven't
shipped yet at all. We do label some languages Beta on the stable
branch, I would think that we could do so for Fx3.0, too.

Axel
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Re: /l10n repository frozen for Firefox 3 Beta 5

Damjan Georgievski
> I don't really mind what KDE and Gnome do.

maybe you need to mind... obviously they solved some problems that Mozilla
is strugling with. Please don't dismiss them.

> To me, an open tree implies
> an opt-in for the following milestone/release. Our dot releases are for
> security and stability, and I don't see us taking any chances in opening
> the tree and then not being able to push out a security update.

Why would l10n block security updates?
 
> This goes by the same argument that I gave in my reply to Cedric's post,
> we just can't tell if something's broken or not by just looking at
> tinderbox. I'm not a great friend of those approvals myself, as it's me
> who's doing them. But I do find bugs in the patches, so it's not just an
> academic thing.

The way I see it.. this implies that the mozilla processes or infrastructure
or technology is broken here.

L10n should in no way affect the workability of the browser.
(of course changed words might confuse the user, but the l10n people are
aware of that - I'm talking about stupid "yellow screen of death" problems
or charset conversions in the windows installer).
 

>  From another point of view, we're shipping the 5th localized milestone
> in a bit for some of our languages. Granted, the first for Mongolian.
>
> If you, or others, think that your 3.0 final release will receive a
> significant amount of feedback and changes for 3.0.1, maybe we should
> open the discussion on whether to release all languages that are green
> as final localizations, or if we should add some set of languages as
> Beta.

label it Beta .. and we receive a lot less testing

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Re: /l10n repository frozen for Firefox 3 Beta 5

Axel Hecht
Damjan Georgievski wrote:

>> I don't really mind what KDE and Gnome do.
>
> maybe you need to mind... obviously they solved some problems that Mozilla
> is strugling with. Please don't dismiss them.
>
>> To me, an open tree implies
>> an opt-in for the following milestone/release. Our dot releases are for
>> security and stability, and I don't see us taking any chances in opening
>> the tree and then not being able to push out a security update.
>
> Why would l10n block security updates?

What else?

>> This goes by the same argument that I gave in my reply to Cedric's post,
>> we just can't tell if something's broken or not by just looking at
>> tinderbox. I'm not a great friend of those approvals myself, as it's me
>> who's doing them. But I do find bugs in the patches, so it's not just an
>> academic thing.
>
> The way I see it.. this implies that the mozilla processes or infrastructure
> or technology is broken here.
>
> L10n should in no way affect the workability of the browser.
> (of course changed words might confuse the user, but the l10n people are
> aware of that - I'm talking about stupid "yellow screen of death" problems
> or charset conversions in the windows installer).

Duh. Or do you expect me to say more?

>
>>  From another point of view, we're shipping the 5th localized milestone
>> in a bit for some of our languages. Granted, the first for Mongolian.
>>
>> If you, or others, think that your 3.0 final release will receive a
>> significant amount of feedback and changes for 3.0.1, maybe we should
>> open the discussion on whether to release all languages that are green
>> as final localizations, or if we should add some set of languages as
>> Beta.
>
> label it Beta .. and we receive a lot less testing
>

I'll try to get numbers about the current testers on fx3 and users on 2,
maybe that'll help.


Anyway, your points are moot, we're a few weeks to release and you
phantasise about how the world could be. That's just not relevant to the
issues at hand.

Axel
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Re: /l10n repository frozen for Firefox 3 Beta 5

Damjan Georgievski
> Anyway, your points are moot, we're a few weeks to release and you
> phantasise about how the world could be. That's just not relevant to the
> issues at hand.

We had contentions like this in the 2.0 release too. Nothing changed .. Now
we are in the same situation.

What do you expect me to do? Just not say anything?
The problems will not go away.



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Re: /l10n repository frozen for Firefox 3 Beta 5

Rimas Kudelis-3
Damjan Georgievski rašė:
>> Anyway, your points are moot, we're a few weeks to release and you
>> phantasise about how the world could be. That's just not relevant to the
>> issues at hand.
>
> We had contentions like this in the 2.0 release too. Nothing changed .. Now
> we are in the same situation.
>
> What do you expect me to do? Just not say anything?
> The problems will not go away.

Hmm... Confronting each other will not solve your problems either.

IMHO, if you expect many testers for RC1, that's great. And if you're
afraid you won't be able to land any changes post RC1, you shouldn't.

There always are bugs, here and there, and that's what Bugzilla is for.
When you have changes you want to incorporate past any release (be that
an RC or x.x.x) you have to simply file a bug (or a few of them) for
your localization component. I'm not sure how Axel would react to some
major change, but I'm sure that at least fixes for true bugs (such as
missed %s, or maybe even grammar mistakes) would get a check-in approval.

RQ
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