firefox for android not accessible

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firefox for android not accessible

Kenny Hitt
Hi.  If this is the wrong list for this question, please point me to the correct list.
I've used firefox on my Linux desktop for a while now.  Thanks to firefox, I have good web access.
I've recently started using an Android smart phone.  Google's web browser isn't accessible at this time.
A few days ago, I found a release of firefox for Android.  I installed it hoping it would finally give me access to
the web.  It looks like it has no support for accessibility.  Will this be corrected in a future version?
If not, would someone from mozilla please explain why it won't be made accessible?
I'm available to help get firefox for Android accessible.  I'm not a developer, but I am an advanced user.
I'll be glad to help in any way possible to get web access on Android.

Thanks in advance for any info.
          Kenny

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Re: firefox for android not accessible

Steve Lee-3
Kenny said
> A few days ago, I found a release of firefox for Android.
> I installed it hoping it would finally give me access to
> the web.  It looks like it has no support for accessibility.

A big part of the problem is Google's failure to implement the basic
accessibility APIs required to give the complete accessibility
'stack'. The Android accessibility story has a long way to go - iOS is
way ahead right now which is a real shame, especially given Androids
projected market share.

I suggest you nag Google very hard :-)

--
Steve Lee

Full Measure - open source accessibility - http://fullmeasure.co.uk
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Re: firefox for android not accessible

Alexander Surkov
In reply to this post by Kenny Hitt
Hi, Kenny.

You're correct Firefox is not accessible on mobile now.

It's quite important for us to ship accessible browser for Android. It's new
platform for us and we're in investigation phase still. Hopefully the things
will be changed soon.

Thank you.
Alexander.


On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 1:17 AM, Kenny Hitt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi.  If this is the wrong list for this question, please point me to the
> correct list.
> I've used firefox on my Linux desktop for a while now.  Thanks to firefox,
> I have good web access.
> I've recently started using an Android smart phone.  Google's web browser
> isn't accessible at this time.
> A few days ago, I found a release of firefox for Android.  I installed it
> hoping it would finally give me access to
> the web.  It looks like it has no support for accessibility.  Will this be
> corrected in a future version?
> If not, would someone from mozilla please explain why it won't be made
> accessible?
> I'm available to help get firefox for Android accessible.  I'm not a
> developer, but I am an advanced user.
> I'll be glad to help in any way possible to get web access on Android.
>
> Thanks in advance for any info.
>          Kenny
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>
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Re: firefox for android not accessible

Kenny Hitt
In reply to this post by Steve Lee-3
Hi.
On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 05:28:09PM +0000, Steve Lee wrote:
>
> A big part of the problem is Google's failure to implement the basic
> accessibility APIs required to give the complete accessibility
> 'stack'. The Android accessibility story has a long way to go - iOS is
> way ahead right now which is a real shame, especially given Androids
> projected market share.
>
> I suggest you nag Google very hard :-)
>
I and others have been asking for almost a year now with no success.  Google and it's eyes-free project don't take input from users.  Even bug reports with there existing projects are ignored.
That was why I was hoping mozilla would have better luck.  At this point, I'll be happy with a self voicing firefox.  Anything to get web access on Android.
Because I can't afford to change phone companies, the iPhone isn't currently an option.  I'm stuck with Android.

          Kenny
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Re: firefox for android not accessible

Steve Lee-3
On 25 February 2011 17:46, Kenny Hitt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> That was why I was hoping mozilla would have better luck.  At this point, I'll be happy with a self voicing firefox.  Anything to get web access on Android.

Kenny

I don't know what the current state of Firevox is or if Fennec can run
it bit perhaps someone could hook it up to Android TTS?

Interestingly Charles Chen who created Firevox now works for Google
accessibility with TV Ramen.

Steve
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Re: firefox for android not accessible

Kenny Hitt
hi.
On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 06:30:53PM +0000, Steve Lee wrote:

> On 25 February 2011 17:46, Kenny Hitt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > That was why I was hoping mozilla would have better luck.  At this point, I'll be happy with a self voicing firefox.  Anything to get web access on Android.
>
> Kenny
>
> I don't know what the current state of Firevox is or if Fennec can run
> it bit perhaps someone could hook it up to Android TTS?
>
> Interestingly Charles Chen who created Firevox now works for Google
> accessibility with TV Ramen.
>
I know.  Raman accused me of "bad mouthing" his product when I tried reporting a bug.
At that point, I realized users won't have any luck contributing to google's accessibility like we can on the gnome desktop.

I have the source for firevox, but don't know how or waht to do to get it working with Android.
I'm glad to help anyone with this.  I'm willing to try it myself, but don't know where to start.
As I rememver, firevox hasn't been used since firefox 1.5.

          Kenny
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Re: firefox for android not accessible

David Bolter-3
In reply to this post by Steve Lee-3
On 25/02/11 1:30 PM, Steve Lee wrote:
> On 25 February 2011 17:46, Kenny Hitt<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> That was why I was hoping mozilla would have better luck.  At this point, I'll be happy with a self voicing firefox.  Anything to get web access on Android.
> Kenny
>
> I don't know what the current state of Firevox is or if Fennec can run
> it bit perhaps someone could hook it up to Android TTS?
>

Accessibility via extension is a way to move forward on
Firefox-for-Android accessibility in my opinion. It isn't the only
strategy we're considering.

Kenny, I've been hoping for an Android accessibility roadmap from
Google, but I haven't seen one yet. I think the right way to move
forward is in collaboration with Google and I encourage us all to think
about ways to take positive steps forward.

Cheers,
David
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Re: firefox for android not accessible

Kenny Hitt
Hi.
On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 01:55:56PM -0500, David Bolter wrote:

>
> Accessibility via extension is a way to move forward on
> Firefox-for-Android accessibility in my opinion. It isn't the only
> strategy we're considering.
>
> Kenny, I've been hoping for an Android accessibility roadmap from
> Google, but I haven't seen one yet. I think the right way to move
> forward is in collaboration with Google and I encourage us all to
> think about ways to take positive steps forward.
>
I would agree.  The problem is google doesn't seem to be interested in working with others.
Over the last year, I've seen developers as well as users try to move Android accessibility forward only to get ignored.  One of these people has produced an alternative screen reader as well as
an accessible on screen keyboard.  Neither effort have been excepted by google.  Worse, this guy has filed several bugs that have been ignored.
The accessibility api hasn't had any changes since it's first release in Android 1.6.  Other google programmers ignore the existing accessibility apis.
I've watched more than one google app become less accessible with new releases.  It's to the point where I'm afraid to update google apps because I'm afraid I'll loose access to more features.

At this point, I don't know what else to do but try to get access to Android despite google.  Sorry for the negative attitude in this post.
I started out with a positive attitude toward Android, but the last year has been one disappointment after another.

          Kenny
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Re: firefox for android not accessible

Steve Lee-3
In reply to this post by Kenny Hitt
On 25 February 2011 18:46, Kenny Hitt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I know.  Raman accused me of "bad mouthing" his product when I tried reporting a bug.
> At that point, I realized users won't have any luck contributing to google's accessibility like we can on the gnome desktop.

Sorry to hear that. The fact that so much is done behind closed doors
before the code is released doesn't help

> I have the source for firevox, but don't know how or waht to do to get it working with Android

Nor do I but I suspect at least 3 areas
a) be to get it to work with Fennec as an addon
b) Build an XPCOM component to access TTS on Android, the equivalent
of those form Windows and Linux

> I'm glad to help anyone with this

I really don't have any spare cycles at the moment. Hopefully someone else does.

> As I rememver, firevox hasn't been used since firefox 1.5.

Yes I think so. Thus it might need quite a bit of work for 3.5 / 4.
This will probably be new DOM features rather that Firefox specifics.

Steve
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Re: firefox for android not accessible

Steve Lee-3
In reply to this post by Kenny Hitt
[re sending to list]

On 25 February 2011 19:21, Kenny Hitt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi.
> On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 01:55:56PM -0500, David Bolter wrote:
>>
>> Accessibility via extension is a way to move forward on
>> Firefox-for-Android accessibility in my opinion. It isn't the only
>> strategy we're considering.

Complete platform accessibility usable by any app and AT would be so
much better...

>> Kenny, I've been hoping for an Android accessibility roadmap from
>> Google, but I haven't seen one yet. I think the right way to move
>> forward is in collaboration with Google and I encourage us all to
>> think about ways to take positive steps forward.
>>
> I would agree.  The problem is google doesn't seem to be interested in working with others.

Being polite, Android is not open development. They kindly dump code
at certain points.

> Over the last year, I've seen developers as well as users try to move Android accessibility forward only to get ignored.  One of these people has produced an alternative screen reader as well as
> an accessible on screen keyboard.  Neither effort have been excepted by google.  Worse, this guy has filed several bugs that have been ignored.

Sigh!

> At this point, I don't know what else to do but try to get access to Android despite google.

That seems to be the only game Google want to play. Trouble is you'll
get to take the hit merging the next official release

>Sorry for the negative attitude in this post.
> I started out with a positive attitude toward Android, but the last year has been one disappointment after another.

You are not alone I know other users like @ppatel who just can't use
Android as it stands.

I also feel this is really important but can see a way forward.

Steve
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Re: firefox for android not accessible

Kenny Hitt
In reply to this post by Steve Lee-3
Hi.
On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 07:41:57PM +0000, Steve Lee wrote:

> On 25 February 2011 18:46, Kenny Hitt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I have the source for firevox, but don't know how or waht to do to get it working with Android
>
> Nor do I but I suspect at least 3 areas
> a) be to get it to work with Fennec as an addon
> b) Build an XPCOM component to access TTS on Android, the equivalent
> of those form Windows and Linux
>
> > I'm glad to help anyone with this
>
> I really don't have any spare cycles at the moment. Hopefully someone else does.
>
> > As I rememver, firevox hasn't been used since firefox 1.5.
>
> Yes I think so. Thus it might need quite a bit of work for 3.5 / 4.
> This will probably be new DOM features rather that Firefox specifics.
Trying to get it working might be beyond my ability, but I'm willing to try.
My first step will be to learn javascript.  Do you know of a good online source for a newbie to start learning?
The code is already split up into parts, so that should make it easier to get something working eventually.  For example, the tts specific code is in it's own
bundle.

          Kenny

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Re: firefox for android not accessible

Kenny Hitt
In reply to this post by Steve Lee-3
On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 07:42:36PM +0000, Steve Lee wrote:
> [re sending to list]
>
> That seems to be the only game Google want to play. Trouble is you'll
> get to take the hit merging the next official release
>
For making firefox self voicing, newer versions of Android won't make any difference.  Remember, the accessibility api hasn't changed since 1.6,
and the tts api hasn't changed since Android 2.0.  Actually, you don't want to try extended features of the tts api on any Android version earlier than 2.2.
The tts-extended package has a nasty bug with speech rate.  It was reported before final release and ignored.
I don't like the idea of a self voicing solution because it excludes so many disabilities, but Google doesn't seem
to give any other option.

          Kenny
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Re: firefox for android not accessible

Kenny Hitt
In reply to this post by Kenny Hitt
Sorry for replying to myself.
On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 02:32:03PM -0600, Kenny Hitt wrote:
> My first step will be to learn javascript.  Do you know of a good online source for a newbie to start learning?

https://developer.mozilla.org

Should have looked here long ago.

          Kenny

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Re: firefox for android not accessible

Jason White-14
In reply to this post by Kenny Hitt
Kenny Hitt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> At this point, I'll be happy with a self voicing firefox.  Anything to get web access on Android.

There's an svn repository here:
http://eyes-free.googlecode.com/svn/trunk
which includes a directory called WebAccess, containing source code that may
help you.

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Re: firefox for android not accessible

Kenny Hitt
Hi.
On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 11:59:50AM +1100, Jason White wrote:
> Kenny Hitt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > At this point, I'll be happy with a self voicing firefox.  Anything to get web access on Android.
>
> There's an svn repository here:
> http://eyes-free.googlecode.com/svn/trunk
> which includes a directory called WebAccess, containing source code that may
> help you.
>
Unfortunately, that app doesn't work for me.  Some users have had limmited success using it with a few sites.
Someone did try to improve it, but there patches weren't accepted.  Unless I'm willing to fork it, anything I do to fix it's problems
won't be available for other users.  At this point, I feel I'll have better success getting firefox accessible.
I know mozilla will accept my work if it is good.

          Kenny
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Re: firefox for android not accessible

Steve Lee-3
In reply to this post by Kenny Hitt
On 25 February 2011 20:44, Kenny Hitt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 07:42:36PM +0000, Steve Lee wrote:
>> [re sending to list]
>>
>> That seems to be the only game Google want to play. Trouble is you'll
>> get to take the hit merging the next official release
>>

My point here was that to work on ANY Android accessibility you can't
engage in open  development with Google. Rather you have to adapt the
source they occaisionaly make public, submit patches and hope, and
when next version comes out merge your work back in. All very painful.
Plus handset retailers who uses Android probably won't even see your
work. The only realistic way as David says is for Google to work with
the accessibility community and get it in core.

> For making firefox self voicing, newer versions of Android won't make any difference.  Remember, the accessibility api hasn't changed since 1.6,
> and the tts api hasn't changed since Android 2.0.

The point of self voicing is it doesn't use the APIs (unless I'm mis
understanding you). Rather it's a JS Firefox extension that examines
the page DOM and responds to events while driving speech directly
itself (through a special XPCOM component that has platform access).
It doesn't go near the platform a11y apis. and is only usable if
standard input interactions with browser are usable.

> Actually, you don't want to try extended features of the tts api on any Android version earlier than 2.2.

That's not good but actually I think all you need is 'say text' and
'stop speech'. At least that's all I use in Maavis.

> The tts-extended package has a nasty bug with speech rate.  It was reported before final release and ignored.

Sigh, again

> I don't like the idea of a self voicing solution because it excludes so many disabilities, but Google doesn't seem
> to give any other option.

+1
Proper platform APIs allow choice of user appropriate AT with any app


So the question remains - how the hell can we move on from this stupid
situation where any users of accessibility will not use Android?

Steve
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Re: firefox for android not accessible

James Teh-2
In reply to this post by Steve Lee-3
On 26/02/2011 3:46 AM, Kenny Hitt wrote:
>> A big part of the problem is Google's failure to implement the basic
>> accessibility APIs required to give the complete accessibility
>> 'stack'. The Android accessibility story has a long way to go
> I and others have been asking for almost a year now with no success.  ...
> At this point, I'll be happy with a self voicing firefox.  Anything to get web access on Android.
I blogged about the poor state of Android accessibility a while ago:
http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/10/poor-state-of-android-accessibility.html
Among other things, the problem is that the kind of changes required to
make Android more accessible really need to be made in the core, which
means that most users can't really do this unless they have a developer
(or hacked) phone.
Also, while I'd generally prefer not to promote non-Mozilla products on
a Mozilla forum, that post also discusses one possible self-voicing web
access solution for Android.

Jamie

--
James Teh
Email/MSN Messenger/Jabber: [hidden email]
Web site: http://www.jantrid.net/
Twitter: jcsteh
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Re: firefox for android not accessible

Kenny Hitt
Hi.
On Sat, Mar 05, 2011 at 01:12:22PM +1000, James Teh wrote:

> I blogged about the poor state of Android accessibility a while ago:
> http://blog.jantrid.net/2010/10/poor-state-of-android-accessibility.html
> Among other things, the problem is that the kind of changes required
> to make Android more accessible really need to be made in the core,
> which means that most users can't really do this unless they have a
> developer (or hacked) phone.
> Also, while I'd generally prefer not to promote non-Mozilla products
> on a Mozilla forum, that post also discusses one possible
> self-voicing web access solution for Android.
>
I agree.  It looks like the only way to improve Android accessibility is to work with one of the custom roms.  That's bad because it
means you will have to root and install the custom rom, but it seems the only option for now.
I did try ideal's web solution.  I have very limited success using it.
Just like google, ideal doesn't want patches to improve there product.

          Kenny

> Jamie
>
> --
> James Teh
> Email/MSN Messenger/Jabber: [hidden email]
> Web site: http://www.jantrid.net/
> Twitter: jcsteh
> _______________________________________________
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