alt text and float

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alt text and float

mozilla accessibility
  http://narita.mit.edu/ncam/firefox/t.html

  I was reviewing a set of recently updated pages for WGBH when I discovered something that seems strange to me. I ran into a page which, when images were turned off, did not pass some of the altText to the screen reader. I am using the latest Firefox, and tried it with NVDA 0.6, Jaws 9.0, and Window-eyes 6.1.  

  Even stranger  is that I got different results when displaying a local copy of the page as opposed to one located on a remote web server. When displaying the version on the remote server, all altText was missing when images were turned off in the browser. When displaying a local copy of the same page, there is no difference between what I hear with images turned on or off.

  I've simplified the page, and put it up at the above link. Might anyone be able to try this out and let me know if they see  similar behavior?  As far as I can tell, it has to do with a float in the style sheet; if the float is commented out, all this weirdness goes away.  


  -- Rich


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Re: alt text and float

Steve Faulkner-2
Hi Rich, tested the page with JAWS 9,
with IE7 announced alt texts with images off.
with Firefox 3 did not.
disabled styles in firefox 3 announced  alt.

regards
stevef

On Jul 25, 5:12 pm, Rich Caloggero <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  http://narita.mit.edu/ncam/firefox/t.html
>
>   I was reviewing a set of recently updated pages for WGBH when I discovered something that seems strange to me. I ran into a page which, when images were turned off, did not pass some of the altText to the screen reader. I am using the latest Firefox, and tried it with NVDA 0.6, Jaws 9.0, and Window-eyes 6.1.  
>
>   Even stranger  is that I got different results when displaying a local copy of the page as opposed to one located on a remote web server. When displaying the version on the remote server, all altText was missing when images were turned off in the browser. When displaying a local copy of the same page, there is no difference between what I hear with images turned on or off.
>
>   I've simplified the page, and put it up at the above link. Might anyone be able to try this out and let me know if they see  similar behavior?  As far as I can tell, it has to do with a float in the style sheet; if the float is commented out, all this weirdness goes away.  
>
>   -- Rich

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Re: alt text and float

mozilla accessibility
So, is this a bug in Firefox (something I should file a bug report on), or
is it the way floats are supposed to work?  I was under the impression that
altText should be available even if the image is not displayed (because its
off-screen because of explicit CSS commands or because image display is
turned off in the browser).

Thanx.
-- Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "stevef" <[hidden email]>
Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.accessibility
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 6:12 AM
Subject: Re: alt text and float


Hi Rich, tested the page with JAWS 9,
with IE7 announced alt texts with images off.
with Firefox 3 did not.
disabled styles in firefox 3 announced  alt.

regards
stevef

On Jul 25, 5:12 pm, Rich Caloggero <[hidden email]> wrote:

> http://narita.mit.edu/ncam/firefox/t.html
>
> I was reviewing a set of recently updated pages for WGBH when I discovered
> something that seems strange to me. I ran into a page which, when images
> were turned off, did not pass some of the altText to the screen reader. I
> am using the latest Firefox, and tried it with NVDA 0.6, Jaws 9.0, and
> Window-eyes 6.1.
>
> Even stranger is that I got different results when displaying a local copy
> of the page as opposed to one located on a remote web server. When
> displaying the version on the remote server, all altText was missing when
> images were turned off in the browser. When displaying a local copy of the
> same page, there is no difference between what I hear with images turned
> on or off.
>
> I've simplified the page, and put it up at the above link. Might anyone be
> able to try this out and let me know if they see similar behavior? As far
> as I can tell, it has to do with a float in the style sheet; if the float
> is commented out, all this weirdness goes away.
>
> -- Rich

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Re: alt text and float

Gregory J. Rosmaita
aloha, rich!

from a meta-level, alt text SHOULD always be available for exposure
to the user whether or not image loading is turned on or off -- often,
people are working under circumstances that preclude their tailoring
the browser they are currently using to "show images" or not to render
images...  whether or not the image is physically rendered on the visual
canvas, the value of the alt attribute for that image MUST be available
to be passed onto an AT or to be displayed in accordance with user
settings...

whether the graphic itself is displayed is irrelevant -- what is
relevant is ensuring that, no matter what mode the UA is set to, the
value defined for the alt attribute for that image is available under
any and ALL circumstances: show images, don't render images,
placeholders instead of images...

gregory.

----------------------------------------------------------------
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as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them
with others.         -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
----------------------------------------------------------------
             Gregory J. Rosmaita, [hidden email]
  Camera Obscura: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html
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---------- Original Message -----------
From: Rich Caloggero <[hidden email]>
To: stevef <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Sent: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:52:50 -0400
Subject: Re: alt text and float

> So, is this a bug in Firefox (something I should file a bug
> report on), or is it the way floats are supposed to work?  I was
> under the impression that altText should be available even if
> the image is not displayed (because its off-screen because of
> explicit CSS commands or because image display is turned off in
> the browser).
>
> Thanx.
> -- Rich

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Re: alt text and float

mozilla accessibility
In reply to this post by mozilla accessibility
http://narita.mit.edu/ncam/firefox/floatTest.html
If you goto the above link with Firefox3 and Jaws, with images turned off,
you will see a heading, followed by a blank line, followed by a paragraph
containing the text "--end--".
Now, switch to the jaws cursor and read the page; you will hear the weekday
names followed by "--end--"; this is the missing altText. Seems to be a bug
in Jaws.

However, I get similar results with Window-eyes. I turn browse mode off with
control+shift+a and hit numpad minus key until it says "mouse cursor" then
read the page. Again I hear the missing altText.

Perhaps float is moving the image outside the viewing area and the screen
reader is interpretting that CSS and moving the altText for that image
outside the view area which means its not getting into the virtual buffer.
So, is this a bug in the way information is being passed to the screen
reader, or a misshandling of float and alt, or something specific to the
screen reader which just happens to be simmilarly malfunctioning in both
screen readers? Anyone hazzard a guess?

I don't know NVDA very well so don't know how to read the screen in mouse
mode; can anyone confirm these results with NVDA's mouse mode? NVDA in
virtual buffer mode does not show the altText.

Am I missing something here? Its perfectly plausible that I'm not
understanding something that others may find completely obvious! <smile>
-- Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Caloggero" <[hidden email]>
To: "stevef" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: alt text and float


So, is this a bug in Firefox (something I should file a bug report on), or
is it the way floats are supposed to work?  I was under the impression that
altText should be available even if the image is not displayed (because its
off-screen because of explicit CSS commands or because image display is
turned off in the browser).

Thanx.
-- Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "stevef" <[hidden email]>
Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.accessibility
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 6:12 AM
Subject: Re: alt text and float


Hi Rich, tested the page with JAWS 9,
with IE7 announced alt texts with images off.
with Firefox 3 did not.
disabled styles in firefox 3 announced  alt.

regards
stevef

On Jul 25, 5:12 pm, Rich Caloggero <[hidden email]> wrote:

> http://narita.mit.edu/ncam/firefox/t.html
>
> I was reviewing a set of recently updated pages for WGBH when I discovered
> something that seems strange to me. I ran into a page which, when images
> were turned off, did not pass some of the altText to the screen reader. I
> am using the latest Firefox, and tried it with NVDA 0.6, Jaws 9.0, and
> Window-eyes 6.1.
>
> Even stranger is that I got different results when displaying a local copy
> of the page as opposed to one located on a remote web server. When
> displaying the version on the remote server, all altText was missing when
> images were turned off in the browser. When displaying a local copy of the
> same page, there is no difference between what I hear with images turned
> on or off.
>
> I've simplified the page, and put it up at the above link. Might anyone be
> able to try this out and let me know if they see similar behavior? As far
> as I can tell, it has to do with a float in the style sheet; if the float
> is commented out, all this weirdness goes away.
>
> -- Rich

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Re: alt text and float

Michael Curran-2
Hi,

With latest trunk revisions of NVDA, NVDA can see the graphics with
their alt attributes perfectly on that page with Firefox 3. This is
using NVDA's virtualBuffers, no mouse tricks.

However, I think the reason that Jaws etc are ignoring it in their
virtualBuffers is because, according to the Gecko accessibility
hyerarchy, The div containing the graphics has state_invisible in its
accessibility states, plus it has a width and height of 0 pixels.

No doubt Gecko does this because the div itself contains no physical
content, as the graphics have been floated outside it.

NVDA takes care not to ignore these containers where children have been
floated. However, to make sure it doesn't render truely hidden things,
it does not render invisible nodes that have no children of their own.
If there was an invisible node that truely also had invisible children,
then the children would also have the invisible state.

Mick

Rich Caloggero wrote:

> http://narita.mit.edu/ncam/firefox/floatTest.html
> If you goto the above link with Firefox3 and Jaws, with images turned off,
> you will see a heading, followed by a blank line, followed by a paragraph
> containing the text "--end--".
> Now, switch to the jaws cursor and read the page; you will hear the weekday
> names followed by "--end--"; this is the missing altText. Seems to be a bug
> in Jaws.
>
> However, I get similar results with Window-eyes. I turn browse mode off with
> control+shift+a and hit numpad minus key until it says "mouse cursor" then
> read the page. Again I hear the missing altText.
>
> Perhaps float is moving the image outside the viewing area and the screen
> reader is interpretting that CSS and moving the altText for that image
> outside the view area which means its not getting into the virtual buffer.
> So, is this a bug in the way information is being passed to the screen
> reader, or a misshandling of float and alt, or something specific to the
> screen reader which just happens to be simmilarly malfunctioning in both
> screen readers? Anyone hazzard a guess?
>
> I don't know NVDA very well so don't know how to read the screen in mouse
> mode; can anyone confirm these results with NVDA's mouse mode? NVDA in
> virtual buffer mode does not show the altText.
>
> Am I missing something here? Its perfectly plausible that I'm not
> understanding something that others may find completely obvious!<smile>
> -- Rich
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Caloggero"<[hidden email]>
> To: "stevef"<[hidden email]>
> Cc:<[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 12:52 PM
> Subject: Re: alt text and float
>
>
> So, is this a bug in Firefox (something I should file a bug report on), or
> is it the way floats are supposed to work?  I was under the impression that
> altText should be available even if the image is not displayed (because its
> off-screen because of explicit CSS commands or because image display is
> turned off in the browser).
>
> Thanx.
> -- Rich
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "stevef"<[hidden email]>
> Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.accessibility
> To:<[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 6:12 AM
> Subject: Re: alt text and float
>
>
> Hi Rich, tested the page with JAWS 9,
> with IE7 announced alt texts with images off.
> with Firefox 3 did not.
> disabled styles in firefox 3 announced  alt.
>
> regards
> stevef
>
> On Jul 25, 5:12 pm, Rich Caloggero<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> http://narita.mit.edu/ncam/firefox/t.html
>>
>> I was reviewing a set of recently updated pages for WGBH when I discovered
>> something that seems strange to me. I ran into a page which, when images
>> were turned off, did not pass some of the altText to the screen reader. I
>> am using the latest Firefox, and tried it with NVDA 0.6, Jaws 9.0, and
>> Window-eyes 6.1.
>>
>> Even stranger is that I got different results when displaying a local copy
>> of the page as opposed to one located on a remote web server. When
>> displaying the version on the remote server, all altText was missing when
>> images were turned off in the browser. When displaying a local copy of the
>> same page, there is no difference between what I hear with images turned
>> on or off.
>>
>> I've simplified the page, and put it up at the above link. Might anyone be
>> able to try this out and let me know if they see similar behavior? As far
>> as I can tell, it has to do with a float in the style sheet; if the float
>> is commented out, all this weirdness goes away.
>>
>> -- Rich
>
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
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Re: alt text and float

Tom Brunet
In reply to this post by mozilla accessibility
> hierarchy, The div containing the graphics has state_invisible in its
> accessibility states, plus it has a width and height of 0 pixels.

Unless I'm doing something wrong, it has state_invisible whether the
images are showing or not.  However, when I look at this with AccProbe,
the img's have no accessibleName when the images are off.  Firefox bug?
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