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accessible JS drop down list

Jonathan Chetwynd
accessible JS drop down list

Aaron,

perhaps you could provide a pointer?
perhaps you've succeeded where so many failed...
cheers

Jonathan Chetwynd

 >>Accessible JS drop down lists are possible in Firefox.


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Re: accessible JS drop down list

Aaron Leventhal-3
This editable combo box example is not 100%
complete, but it should give you an idea that
anything is possible:
http://www.mozilla.org/access/dhtml/combo

You'll notice it has no incremental find as you
type feature, but that would not be hard to add,
and has been done before.

This is actually part of the suite of examples
listed here:
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Accessible_DHTML

There aren't any plans currently to spend more
time developing these examples, because efforts
are currently in the Dojo toolkit space. In fact
if anyone is interested in working on Dojo
accessibility for a Mozilla mini grant please let
me know.

- Aaron
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Re: accessible JS drop down list

Jonathan Chetwynd
Aaron,

in past discussions most interest is in respect of a drop down list  
of web links for navigation.

what is the purpose of the blinking caret navigating through all text  
letter by letter using right arrow?



cheers

Jonathan Chetwynd



On 28 Nov 2006, at 19:01, Aaron Leventhal wrote:

This editable combo box example is not 100% complete, but it should  
give you an idea that anything is possible:
http://www.mozilla.org/access/dhtml/combo

You'll notice it has no incremental find as you type feature, but  
that would not be hard to add, and has been done before.

This is actually part of the suite of examples listed here:
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Accessible_DHTML

There aren't any plans currently to spend more time developing these  
examples, because efforts are currently in the Dojo toolkit space. In  
fact if anyone is interested in working on Dojo accessibility for a  
Mozilla mini grant please let me know.

- Aaron
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Re: accessible JS drop down list

Aaron Leventhal-3
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
You can do it either way. A dropdown with links is
no problem. As you can see, the textfield/caret is
something that was chosen for this particular
example, but the dropdown itself is what's under
discussion.

What's it useful for? An editable combo box is
useful for something like a search engine's
suggest feature.

- Aaron



Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:

> Aaron,
>
> in past discussions most interest is in respect of a drop down list of
> web links for navigation.
>
> what is the purpose of the blinking caret navigating through all text
> letter by letter using right arrow?
>
>
>
> cheers
>
> Jonathan Chetwynd
>
>
>
> On 28 Nov 2006, at 19:01, Aaron Leventhal wrote:
>
> This editable combo box example is not 100% complete, but it should give
> you an idea that anything is possible:
> http://www.mozilla.org/access/dhtml/combo
>
> You'll notice it has no incremental find as you type feature, but that
> would not be hard to add, and has been done before.
>
> This is actually part of the suite of examples listed here:
> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Accessible_DHTML
>
> There aren't any plans currently to spend more time developing these
> examples, because efforts are currently in the Dojo toolkit space. In
> fact if anyone is interested in working on Dojo accessibility for a
> Mozilla mini grant please let me know.
>
> - Aaron
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>
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Re: accessible JS drop down list

Jonathan Chetwynd
Aaron,

perhaps you'd re-read my previous email as you've misunderstood it....

did you try turning js off?
because in minefield 3.0a1 on OS X there is no combobox drop down  
list functionality without js.
aywk: a primary  accessibility requirement is that degradation should  
be gentle and one cant assume js support.

this is sufficient in itself to reject this solution :-(

cheers

Jonathan Chetwynd



On 28 Nov 2006, at 21:37, Aaron Leventhal wrote:

You can do it either way. A dropdown with links is no problem. As you  
can see, the textfield/caret is something that was chosen for this  
particular example, but the dropdown itself is what's under discussion.

What's it useful for? An editable combo box is useful for something  
like a search engine's suggest feature.

- Aaron



Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:

> Aaron,
> in past discussions most interest is in respect of a drop down list  
> of web links for navigation.
> what is the purpose of the blinking caret navigating through all  
> text letter by letter using right arrow?
> cheers
> Jonathan Chetwynd
> On 28 Nov 2006, at 19:01, Aaron Leventhal wrote:
> This editable combo box example is not 100% complete, but it should  
> give you an idea that anything is possible:
> http://www.mozilla.org/access/dhtml/combo
> You'll notice it has no incremental find as you type feature, but  
> that would not be hard to add, and has been done before.
> This is actually part of the suite of examples listed here:
> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Accessible_DHTML
> There aren't any plans currently to spend more time developing  
> these examples, because efforts are currently in the Dojo toolkit  
> space. In fact if anyone is interested in working on Dojo  
> accessibility for a Mozilla mini grant please let me know.
> - Aaron
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
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Re: accessible JS drop down list

Aaron Leventhal-3
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
Jonothan,

It is indeed possible to have a solution that
degrades when JS is not available. As I pointed
out this is merely sample code and not a complete
solution, but it certainly does not preclude what
you say. We've shown how to do the hard part.

- Aaron

Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:

> Aaron,
>
> perhaps you'd re-read my previous email as you've misunderstood it....
>
> did you try turning js off?
> because in minefield 3.0a1 on OS X there is no combobox drop down list
> functionality without js.
> aywk: a primary  accessibility requirement is that degradation should be
> gentle and one cant assume js support.
>
> this is sufficient in itself to reject this solution :-(
>
> cheers
>
> Jonathan Chetwynd
>
>
>
> On 28 Nov 2006, at 21:37, Aaron Leventhal wrote:
>
> You can do it either way. A dropdown with links is no problem. As you
> can see, the textfield/caret is something that was chosen for this
> particular example, but the dropdown itself is what's under discussion.
>
> What's it useful for? An editable combo box is useful for something like
> a search engine's suggest feature.
>
> - Aaron
>
>
>
> Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:
>> Aaron,
>> in past discussions most interest is in respect of a drop down list of
>> web links for navigation.
>> what is the purpose of the blinking caret navigating through all text
>> letter by letter using right arrow?
>> cheers
>> Jonathan Chetwynd
>> On 28 Nov 2006, at 19:01, Aaron Leventhal wrote:
>> This editable combo box example is not 100% complete, but it should
>> give you an idea that anything is possible:
>> http://www.mozilla.org/access/dhtml/combo
>> You'll notice it has no incremental find as you type feature, but that
>> would not be hard to add, and has been done before.
>> This is actually part of the suite of examples listed here:
>> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Accessible_DHTML
>> There aren't any plans currently to spend more time developing these
>> examples, because efforts are currently in the Dojo toolkit space. In
>> fact if anyone is interested in working on Dojo accessibility for a
>> Mozilla mini grant please let me know.
>> - Aaron
>> _______________________________________________
>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>
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Re: accessible JS drop down list

Jonathan Chetwynd
You may have a hard time convincing others, with this sample.

regards

Jonathan Chetwynd



On 29 Nov 2006, at 14:14, Aaron Leventhal wrote:

Jonothan,

It is indeed possible to have a solution that degrades when JS is not  
available. As I pointed out this is merely sample code and not a  
complete solution, but it certainly does not preclude what you say.  
We've shown how to do the hard part.

- Aaron

Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:

> Aaron,
> perhaps you'd re-read my previous email as you've misunderstood it....
> did you try turning js off?
> because in minefield 3.0a1 on OS X there is no combobox drop down  
> list functionality without js.
> aywk: a primary  accessibility requirement is that degradation  
> should be gentle and one cant assume js support.
> this is sufficient in itself to reject this solution :-(
> cheers
> Jonathan Chetwynd
> On 28 Nov 2006, at 21:37, Aaron Leventhal wrote:
> You can do it either way. A dropdown with links is no problem. As  
> you can see, the textfield/caret is something that was chosen for  
> this particular example, but the dropdown itself is what's under  
> discussion.
> What's it useful for? An editable combo box is useful for something  
> like a search engine's suggest feature.
> - Aaron
> Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:
>> Aaron,
>> in past discussions most interest is in respect of a drop down  
>> list of web links for navigation.
>> what is the purpose of the blinking caret navigating through all  
>> text letter by letter using right arrow?
>> cheers
>> Jonathan Chetwynd
>> On 28 Nov 2006, at 19:01, Aaron Leventhal wrote:
>> This editable combo box example is not 100% complete, but it  
>> should give you an idea that anything is possible:
>> http://www.mozilla.org/access/dhtml/combo
>> You'll notice it has no incremental find as you type feature, but  
>> that would not be hard to add, and has been done before.
>> This is actually part of the suite of examples listed here:
>> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Accessible_DHTML
>> There aren't any plans currently to spend more time developing  
>> these examples, because efforts are currently in the Dojo toolkit  
>> space. In fact if anyone is interested in working on Dojo  
>> accessibility for a Mozilla mini grant please let me know.
>> - Aaron
>> _______________________________________________
>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
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Re: accessible JS drop down list

Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
On Wed, 2006-11-29 at 09:14 -0500, Aaron Leventhal wrote:
> It is indeed possible to have a solution that
> degrades when JS is not available. As I pointed
> out this is merely sample code and not a complete
> solution, but it certainly does not preclude what
> you say. We've shown how to do the hard part.

Based on the responses to those examples both in this thread and when
you introduced them to the WHATWG list, I think it might be politic to
try and ensure they're accessible in the traditional way too, by making
them work without JS or without images, and with user/default styling.

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis

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Re: accessible JS drop down list

Aaron Leventhal-3
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
The industry strength widgets with fallbacks are
being created by companies who need this
technology. Theree needs to be a fallback fo
customers with JS or CSS turned off and who are
running in a browser which does not support WAI-ARIA.

My believe is that we as a community need to be
the leaders. Up until now there have been many
people pointing out that AJAX has huge problems
for accessibility. Meanwhile, use of AJAX marches
forward. So, what to do about it?

This community can and should take the lead to
make Web2.0/AJAX accessible by working together on
it. The initial proof of concept has been created.
Now I hope that many developers will see the
potential for what it is, and help lead those who
don't by providing widget examples that simply
rock, yet fallback to something reasonable when
necessary.

- Aaron
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RE: accessible JS drop down list

Sina Bahram
Is this example supposed to be useable via jaws 8 and firefox 2.0?

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Aaron
Leventhal
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 11:28 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: accessible JS drop down list

The industry strength widgets with fallbacks are being created by companies
who need this technology. Theree needs to be a fallback fo customers with JS
or CSS turned off and who are running in a browser which does not support
WAI-ARIA.

My believe is that we as a community need to be the leaders. Up until now
there have been many people pointing out that AJAX has huge problems for
accessibility. Meanwhile, use of AJAX marches forward. So, what to do about
it?

This community can and should take the lead to make Web2.0/AJAX accessible
by working together on it. The initial proof of concept has been created.
Now I hope that many developers will see the potential for what it is, and
help lead those who don't by providing widget examples that simply rock, yet
fallback to something reasonable when necessary.

- Aaron
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Re: accessible JS drop down list

Aaron Leventhal
Sina,

I haven't tested it with that combination, but until JAWS gets 100%
Firefox support, I am using Window-Eyes as the baseline to test with.

What happens when you use it with JAWS 8?

- Aaron

Sina Bahram wrote:

> Is this example supposed to be useable via jaws 8 and firefox 2.0?
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Aaron
> Leventhal
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 11:28 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: accessible JS drop down list
>
> The industry strength widgets with fallbacks are being created by companies
> who need this technology. Theree needs to be a fallback fo customers with JS
> or CSS turned off and who are running in a browser which does not support
> WAI-ARIA.
>
> My believe is that we as a community need to be the leaders. Up until now
> there have been many people pointing out that AJAX has huge problems for
> accessibility. Meanwhile, use of AJAX marches forward. So, what to do about
> it?
>
> This community can and should take the lead to make Web2.0/AJAX accessible
> by working together on it. The initial proof of concept has been created.
> Now I hope that many developers will see the potential for what it is, and
> help lead those who don't by providing widget examples that simply rock, yet
> fallback to something reasonable when necessary.
>
> - Aaron
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>
>  
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RE: accessible JS drop down list

Sina Bahram
If you can resend the URL: I'll let you know.


Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Aaron
Leventhal
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 11:48 AM
To: Sina Bahram
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: accessible JS drop down list

Sina,

I haven't tested it with that combination, but until JAWS gets 100% Firefox
support, I am using Window-Eyes as the baseline to test with.

What happens when you use it with JAWS 8?

- Aaron

Sina Bahram wrote:

> Is this example supposed to be useable via jaws 8 and firefox 2.0?
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> Aaron Leventhal
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 11:28 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: accessible JS drop down list
>
> The industry strength widgets with fallbacks are being created by
> companies who need this technology. Theree needs to be a fallback fo
> customers with JS or CSS turned off and who are running in a browser
> which does not support WAI-ARIA.
>
> My believe is that we as a community need to be the leaders. Up until
> now there have been many people pointing out that AJAX has huge
> problems for accessibility. Meanwhile, use of AJAX marches forward.
> So, what to do about it?
>
> This community can and should take the lead to make Web2.0/AJAX
> accessible by working together on it. The initial proof of concept has
been created.

> Now I hope that many developers will see the potential for what it is,
> and help lead those who don't by providing widget examples that simply
> rock, yet fallback to something reasonable when necessary.
>
> - Aaron
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>
>  
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Re: accessible JS drop down list

Aaron Leventhal
Here is the combo:
http://www.mozilla.org/access/dhtml/combo

Other accessible widgets are here:
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Accessible_DHTML
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RE: accessible JS drop down list

Sina Bahram
I can't even explain this with words.

Suffice it to say this does not work what-so-ever, in any way, shape, or
form with jaws 8 and firefox 2.0.

It recognizes it's a combo box ... That's about it.

I've rarely seen jaws so utterly confused actually.

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Leventhal [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 12:26 PM
To: Sina Bahram
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: accessible JS drop down list

Here is the combo:
http://www.mozilla.org/access/dhtml/combo

Other accessible widgets are here:
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Accessible_DHTML

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Re: accessible JS drop down list

Aaron Leventhal-3
In reply to this post by Jonathan Chetwynd
I don't know why it's not working with JAWS, but I
will say that completely satisfactory JAWS support
is known to not exist yet.

- Aaron
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Re: accessible JS drop down list

Aaron Leventhal-3
In reply to this post by Jonathan Chetwynd
Hmm, I just noticed it seems to be working fine in
JAWS 7.1. Either it's a regression in JAWS 8 or we
have differing expectations about how it should
work :)

You're trying it in Firefox, correct? There is
currently no DHTML accessibility support in IE
(WAI-ARIA to be specific).

- Aaron
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RE: accessible JS drop down list

Sina Bahram
I'll try with jaws 7.1

I just did ...

Aaron, I don't know what you're doing, but this does not work for someone
who can't see.


When I hit enter to go into forms mode on that edit combo ... It doesn't
even act like I'm in forms mode as I can arrow across the page. Furthermore,
if I try to type something, I can never get it back ... And hitting enter
only takes me out of forms mode, but doesn't seem to change anything on the
page.

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Aaron
Leventhal
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 1:52 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: accessible JS drop down list

Hmm, I just noticed it seems to be working fine in JAWS 7.1. Either it's a
regression in JAWS 8 or we have differing expectations about how it should
work :)

You're trying it in Firefox, correct? There is currently no DHTML
accessibility support in IE (WAI-ARIA to be specific).

- Aaron
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