YUI 2.4.0

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YUI 2.4.0

Max Kanat-Alexander
        YUI 2.4.0 came out today:

        http://yuiblog.com/blog/2007/12/04/yuii-240/

        I was thinking that it might be cool to replace our current
GD-generated Charts and Graphs with the new YUI Chart control. It does
require Flash, but I would be OK with requiring Flash to see charts.

        YUI 2.4.0 also comes with some improvements to the Calendar,
which is the only part we currently use, so I'll probably upgrade tip
to YUI 2.4.0 some time soon.

        -Max
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Re: YUI 2.4.0

byron-2
> I was thinking that it might be cool to replace our current
> GD-generated Charts and Graphs with the new YUI Chart control. It does
> require Flash, but I would be OK with requiring Flash to see charts.

i'm against requiring flash to generate charts; it makes embedding of
generated charts harder, along with any sort of automation.



-b

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Re: YUI 2.4.0

Craig-79
In reply to this post by Max Kanat-Alexander
Max Kanat-Alexander wrote:
> I was thinking that it might be cool to replace our current
> GD-generated Charts and Graphs with the new YUI Chart control. It does
> require Flash, but I would be OK with requiring Flash to see charts.

Just FYI, the examples don't seem to work on my browser (Firefox
2.0.0.11 on Linux [CentOS 4.5]). Other flash sites seem to work.

http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/examples/charts/index.html
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Re: YUI 2.4.0

Dave Miller
In reply to this post by Max Kanat-Alexander
Max Kanat-Alexander wrote on 12/4/07 10:20 PM:
> YUI 2.4.0 came out today:
>
> http://yuiblog.com/blog/2007/12/04/yuii-240/
>
> I was thinking that it might be cool to replace our current
> GD-generated Charts and Graphs with the new YUI Chart control. It does
> require Flash, but I would be OK with requiring Flash to see charts.

I'd be okay with flash as long as it's an additional option and not a
replacement for the inline graphics (i.e. if the flash charts let you
click around and manipulate the chart, that'd be a cool feature, but let
me keep a static image for a normal chart somewhere so I can link them
and so forth).

--
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System Administrator, Mozilla Corporation      http://www.mozilla.com/
Project Leader, Bugzilla Bug Tracking System  http://www.bugzilla.org/
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Re: YUI 2.4.0

Myk Melez
In reply to this post by Max Kanat-Alexander
Max Kanat-Alexander wrote:
> YUI 2.4.0 came out today:
>
> http://yuiblog.com/blog/2007/12/04/yuii-240/
>
> I was thinking that it might be cool to replace our current
> GD-generated Charts and Graphs with the new YUI Chart control. It does
> require Flash
Hmm, that's unfortunate.  I'd think a canvas or SVG implementation would
have fit in better on the web, in YUI, and in Bugzilla.

-myk

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Re: YUI 2.4.0

Max Kanat-Alexander
On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 09:44:38 +0530 Myk Melez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hmm, that's unfortunate.  I'd think a canvas or SVG implementation
> would have fit in better on the web, in YUI, and in Bugzilla.

        Yeah, I agree. Maybe you could talk to the YUI developers about
that. I know that some of the Yahoo folks read this list and are pretty
close to the YUI folks.

        -Max
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Re: YUI 2.4.0

Max Kanat-Alexander
In reply to this post by Dave Miller
On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:43:51 -0500 David Miller <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> I'd be okay with flash as long as it's an additional option and not a
> replacement for the inline graphics (i.e. if the flash charts let you
> click around and manipulate the chart, that'd be a cool feature, but
> let me keep a static image for a normal chart somewhere so I can link
> them and so forth).

        Yeah. Maybe we could always have the YUI charts available, and
have static charts as an option if people have GD installed.

        Mostly I wanted to get away from the problems people have,
installing GD.

        -Max
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Re: YUI 2.4.0

Jochen Wiedmann
On Dec 5, 2007 7:52 AM, Max Kanat-Alexander <[hidden email]> wrote:

>         Mostly I wanted to get away from the problems people have,
> installing GD.

I agree, that these are nasty. Nevertheless, I tend to prefer problems
that *one* person can fix (presence of GD on the server) over those
that mulitple persons might have (presence of Flash in the browser).

Apart from that, I do believe that the GD related problems are mostly
the result of using the Perl module.with its tight binding to a
particular version of GD. I always wondered, whether it wouldn't be
possible to rely on the libgd-tools instead (or another command line
frontend), which is much easier to install.

Jochen

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Re: YUI 2.4.0

Max Kanat-Alexander
On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 08:00:14 +0100 "Jochen Wiedmann"
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Apart from that, I do believe that the GD related problems are mostly
> the result of using the Perl module.with its tight binding to a
> particular version of GD. I always wondered, whether it wouldn't be
> possible to rely on the libgd-tools instead (or another command line
> frontend), which is much easier to install.

        That's an interesting thought. We do that with GraphViz, and
people don't have nearly as many problems with it.

        My concern would be having it work well on all platforms,
including Windows.

        -Max
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Re: YUI 2.4.0

Myk Melez
In reply to this post by Max Kanat-Alexander
Max Kanat-Alexander wrote:
> Yeah. Maybe we could always have the YUI charts available, and
> have static charts as an option if people have GD installed.
>  
I think it would be better to use YUI for other things but a canvas/SVG
solution for the graphs.

> Mostly I wanted to get away from the problems people have,
> installing GD.
>  
Sure, that's a good goal.

-myk

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Re: YUI 2.4.0

Frédéric Buclin
In reply to this post by byron-2
byron a écrit :
> i'm against requiring flash to generate charts; it makes embedding of
> generated charts harder, along with any sort of automation.


I'm with Byron, I also don't want to use Flash to view charts. You
cannot easily save charts in the Flash format on your HD and then edit
them with an image editor, or to include them e.g. in your blog where
not all formats are accepted.

Because YUI lets you do it doesn't mean we should do it.


LpSolit
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Re: YUI 2.4.0

Emmanuel Seyman
In reply to this post by Max Kanat-Alexander
* Max Kanat-Alexander :
>
> I was thinking that it might be cool to replace our current
> GD-generated Charts and Graphs with the new YUI Chart control. It does
> require Flash, but I would be OK with requiring Flash to see charts.

While I'm against *replacing* the current graph code with something
Flash-based, I wonder if we couldn't use this opportunity to tidy it up.

In an ideal world, we'ld have the graph-data-gathering code on one hand
and the GD-specific part of our codebase elsewhere.
We'ld then be able to ship Bugzilla with a number of frontends (GD, YUI
Chart, ...), admins could chose which ones they enable and
users would choose between those formats the ones they went to use.

Emmanuek

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Re: YUI 2.4.0

Fergus Sullivan
In reply to this post by Max Kanat-Alexander
In my experience, Flash components are best seen as an optional  
extra, with a graceful failover to non-Flash equivalents.  There will  
always be devices and OSes that don't have adequate support for Flash  
and Bugzilla should absolutely continue to support those.

That said, I'd hate to see any application avoid *optional* use of  
newer technologies where those technologies add value.  To give a  
related example, take a look at Yahoo's newest Flash version of stock  
quote charts.  Notice that you can drag the chart to change its date  
range.  You can mouse over to get details, including time-stamped  
news articles.  I'd argue that this adds enormous benefits.
http://finance.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=YHOO

Of course, a lot of this can also be done with AJAXy goodness and  
DHTML.  I'd never argue that there's one right answer in the Flash  
versus DHTML debate.  However I do know that many providers of image-
heavy dynamic web apps, Yahoo included, tend to find that DHTML  
consumes significantly more server and client resource than does  
Flash.  Full featured web apps like Yahoo Maps have recently shifted  
from DHTML to Flash. My team owns a huge corporate Bugzilla instance  
- 1.6 million bugs, 8,000 daily users, 10 servers.  For us,  
performance is everything.

It seems to me that the one deficiency Bugzilla really suffers from  
is a lack of 'sexiness'.  Every week or two I have users coming to me  
suggesting we shift to Jira, Trac, Fogbugz, or whatever else is  
perceived as sexy.  In many ways, they have a point.  We're still  
very table-centric, very synchronous, and our back end is not exactly  
a model of oo-goodness. I'd hate for any of us to have to put on a  
marketing hat, but if we do we need to look at why people go for the  
new kids on the block instead of Bugzilla.  A more dynamic front-end  
would go a long way to addressing that.

As to missing features in any YUI modules, please either let me know  
or chase the YUI guys directly via their website's preferred  
channels.  I sit 20 meters from them and always find them super-
responsive to requests.  Heretofore, they've always been JS/CSS/DHTML  
centric, but earlier this year they hired five Flash guys.  What  
you're seeing in YUI 2.4.0 is the first generation of Flash  
offerings.  Features such as 'save image as...' may well be  
legitimate enhancement requests.

   /ferg

--
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inc.com | o. 408.349.6807 | m. 408.203.FERG

On Dec 4, 2007, at 7:20 PM, Max Kanat-Alexander wrote:

>
> YUI 2.4.0 came out today:
>
> http://yuiblog.com/blog/2007/12/04/yuii-240/
>
> I was thinking that it might be cool to replace our current
> GD-generated Charts and Graphs with the new YUI Chart control. It does
> require Flash, but I would be OK with requiring Flash to see charts.
>
> YUI 2.4.0 also comes with some improvements to the Calendar,
> which is the only part we currently use, so I'll probably upgrade tip
> to YUI 2.4.0 some time soon.
>
> -Max
> --
> http://www.everythingsolved.com/
> Competent, Friendly Bugzilla and Perl Services. Everything Else, too.
> -
> To view or change your list settings, click here:
> <http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=fergus@...>

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Re: YUI 2.4.0

Max Kanat-Alexander
On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:43:07 -0800 Fergus Sullivan
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> In my experience, Flash components are best seen as an optional  
> extra, with a graceful failover to non-Flash equivalents.  There
> will always be devices and OSes that don't have adequate support for
> Flash and Bugzilla should absolutely continue to support those.
>
> That said, I'd hate to see any application avoid *optional* use of  
> newer technologies where those technologies add value.

        Yes. The problem for us is development resources. Maintaining
two charting systems is more work than maintaining one charting system.
Also, the people with Perl/GD expertise are not normally the people
with JavaScript expertise. And with Bugzilla, getting two people to
work on one bug is not easy.

        Also, one of my goals for getting away from GD was to remove
the hassle of interacting with and installing GD, so having YUI and
then a fallback to GD would be twice as much work, instead of removing
the hassle.

        I agree that it would be a lot "sexier" to use the Flash
charts, though, and that we could definitely use a lot of "spiffing up"
in the UI area.

        -Max
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Re: Bugzilla sexiness (was: YUI 2.4.0)

Frédéric Buclin
In reply to this post by Fergus Sullivan
Fergus Sullivan a écrit :
> It seems to me that the one deficiency Bugzilla really suffers from is a
> lack of 'sexiness'.


You are probably right about its lack of sexiness. Now due to our
limited ressources, we have to choose the right compromise between
sexiness (a.k.a look less oldish, i.e. HTML 3.2-like), new features and
bugfixes, and server load generated by sexiness. If there is a real gain
to use Flash to view charts, then why not. If the goal is only to use
Flash to have the same rendering, then I don't see any interest to move
to Flash. Also, what would be the load on the server if we have more
dynamic and interactive pages? I'm not a performance guru, most of you
probably have a better experience in this area than me, so maybe not
everything I said is relevant here.

LpSolit
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Re: Bugzilla sexiness (was: YUI 2.4.0)

Max Kanat-Alexander
On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 19:08:08 +0100 Frédéric Buclin <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> What would be the load on the server
> if we have more dynamic and interactive pages?

        It's a really important thing to consider.

        For something like Flash charts, it would be no difference,
really, because we'd only make one additional request to the server, to
get some data for YUI.

        However, general AJAX can kill a server if you're not careful.
Where before the average user was doing one page load every 30 seconds,
now they could be doing 10 "page loads" (including AJAX calls) in 5
seconds. Multiply that by your total users, and you can see a huge
spike in load.

        -Max
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Re: YUI 2.4.0

Frédéric Buclin
In reply to this post by Fergus Sullivan
Fergus Sullivan a écrit :
> In my experience, Flash components are best seen as an optional extra,
> with a graceful failover to non-Flash equivalents.  There will always be
> devices and OSes that don't have adequate support for Flash and Bugzilla
> should absolutely continue to support those.


Note that we didn't define, at least recently, which devices/OSes we are
supposed to support. I think the last time we talked about this (maybe 2
years ago), we mostly agree to not worry about Netscape 3 and 4 anymore.
But besides this old browser, no idea.

LpSolit
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Re: YUI 2.4.0

Myk Melez
In reply to this post by Fergus Sullivan
Fergus Sullivan wrote:
> I'd hate to see any application avoid *optional* use of newer
> technologies where those technologies add value.
I can appreciate this argument.  Flash has made some features easier to
develop.  So there are upsides and downsides to either approach.

By way of comparison, here's a Zoho developer explaining why Zoho chose
web standards over Flash in their web application suite:

http://blogs.zoho.com/general/ask-zoho-why-ajax-why-not-flash/

And Zoho shows a variety of sample charts in their sample spreadsheets:

http://sheet.zoho.com/samples.do

All things being equal, I'll pick the open source, standards-based
solution.  When all things aren't equal, I can understand picking a
proprietary technology to solve a problem.  I do it myself sometimes.

But in this case it seems to me that given all the momentum behind AJAX
library development, web standard solutions are likely to be easier to
develop and more powerful in the long run, even if Flash has the edge at
the moment.

Nevertheless, I'm not hacking on Bugzilla these days, so this is just
food for thought.  Active Bugzilla hackers should make this decision.

-myk

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Re: YUI 2.4.0

Craig Sebenik-2
Myk Melez wrote:
> Fergus Sullivan wrote:
>> I'd hate to see any application avoid *optional* use of newer
>> technologies where those technologies add value.
> I can appreciate this argument.  Flash has made some features easier to
> develop.  So there are upsides and downsides to either approach.

Doesn't this get away from the basic problem: GD is a PITA.

Whether it is because of the perl modules or not, GD is causing problems
and a different solution needs to be found. (My $0.02.)

Another server-side solution would be the Image Magick libraries.
(Personally, I've had fewer problems with Image Magick than with GD.)

I think it would be really cool to generate SVG and then convert them
using the IM apps to, say, PNGs for display on the web. (Caveat: I have
*NO* idea what the performance cost of this would be.)

Since people log into bugzilla, wouldn't it be a simple "personal
option" to use Flash vs "static" graphs? If the bugzilla admin at a site
  installs the Flash graphs and a user prefers to see them, couldn't
they just choose to use those pages instead?

Just some random thoughts. :)

Craig
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Re: YUI 2.4.0

Max Kanat-Alexander
On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 04:07:03 -0800 Craig Sebenik <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> Since people log into bugzilla, wouldn't it be a simple "personal
> option" to use Flash vs "static" graphs?

        Yeah. But as I said in another post on this thread, I don't
really want to maintain two types of graphs, and I don't think anybody
else does either, particularly not when one of them is as complex as
GD. :-)

        ImageMagick is a bit troublesome to get working on Windows,
FWIW. And I don't know if there are Perl charting modules built around
it.

        -Max
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