Win2k support

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Win2k support

JoeS-3
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=563318
(msvc2010) switch trunk builds to use Visual C++ 2010

I understand that for TB release users, this will be 20 weeks or so down
the road.
IMO that's a very short lead time for Win2k users, given the lack of a
public declaration of dropping win2k support.
But, it is what it is.

Maybe I'm one of the few nightly testers using Win2k, but it might be
nice to publicize this to the TB community,
(rather than waiting for an "update failed" message "your system does
not support this version of Thunderbird")

I'm perfectly capable of migrating my testing to another system, but
still, It's something that will have to be done.

My point is that testers and even regular users should know that this is
coming with enough time to make whatever adjustments are needed.

Does anyone have any idea what percentage of TB users are on Win2k?


--
JoeS Using TB 11.0 as my everyday build

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Re: Win2k support

JoeS-3
On 12/2/2011 8:10 PM, JoeS wrote:

> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=563318
> (msvc2010) switch trunk builds to use Visual C++ 2010
>
> I understand that for TB release users, this will be 20 weeks or so down
> the road.
> IMO that's a very short lead time for Win2k users, given the lack of a
> public declaration of dropping win2k support.
> But, it is what it is.
>
> Maybe I'm one of the few nightly testers using Win2k, but it might be
> nice to publicize this to the TB community,
> (rather than waiting for an "update failed" message "your system does
> not support this version of Thunderbird")
>
> I'm perfectly capable of migrating my testing to another system, but
> still, It's something that will have to be done.
>
> My point is that testers and even regular users should know that this is
> coming with enough time to make whatever adjustments are needed.
>
> Does anyone have any idea what percentage of TB users are on Win2k?
>
>
So, I guess this is a matter of build config
and Firefox direction does not always completely dictate Thunderbird
direction.
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=707021#c7

So I gather it is still our choice.

--
JoeS
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Re: Win2k support

Justin Wood (Callek)-2
JoeS wrote:
> On 12/2/2011 8:10 PM, JoeS wrote:
>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=563318
>> (msvc2010) switch trunk builds to use Visual C++ 2010
>>
>> I understand that for TB release users, this will be 20 weeks or so down
>> the road.
>> IMO that's a very short lead time for Win2k users, given the lack of a
>> public declaration of dropping win2k support.
>> But, it is what it is.

There is also (at least for firefox) the ESR that is coming, I'm not
sure if Thunderbird has plans there.

>> Maybe I'm one of the few nightly testers using Win2k, but it might be
>> nice to publicize this to the TB community,
>> (rather than waiting for an "update failed" message "your system does
>> not support this version of Thunderbird")

I would have presumed that Microsoft did a good job of saying their 12
year old operating system is no longer supported, am I wrong?

>> I'm perfectly capable of migrating my testing to another system, but
>> still, It's something that will have to be done.

Given that you are already vulnerable to security exploits at the OS
level, its probably something that should be done now, rather than
simply waiting for Thunderbird to require it.

>> My point is that testers and even regular users should know that this is
>> coming with enough time to make whatever adjustments are needed.

Its unclear yet exactly when/what release the change is happening in,
once we know that we can scream it form the rooftops. How much lead-time
we can give depends fully on what concessions we make in doing this.

>> Does anyone have any idea what percentage of TB users are on Win2k?
>>

I don't but still an interesting point to get data about.

> So, I guess this is a matter of build config
> and Firefox direction does not always completely dictate Thunderbird
> direction.
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=707021#c7
>
> So I gather it is still our choice.
>

Not exactly, since the switch to MSVC2010 is actually blocking some
engineering work due to bugs in MSVC2005 as well as new features that
MSVC2010 exposes that makes engineering work easier.

Basically once Firefox switches we will have to switch very soon
thereafter to maintain the ability to build properly.

--
~Justin Wood (Callek)
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Re: Win2k support

JoeS-3
On 12/3/2011 12:06 PM, Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:
> Basically once Firefox switches we will have to switch very soon
> thereafter to maintain the ability to build properly.

Yeah, I figured as much.
I called myself looking out for the "low end" user by using Win2k on a
P3 CPU just to see how it would work perf-wise.
(Surprisingly well BTW, even with the Gloda overhead)

Thanks for the straight answer, I'll set up a more representative system
soon for daily testing.

There may be some value in keeping this old system alive though, just to
test how the obsolescence is "handled".

--
JoeS Using TB 11
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Re: Win2k support

Justin Wood (Callek)-2
JoeS wrote:
>
> Yeah, I figured as much.
> I called myself looking out for the "low end" user by using Win2k on a
> P3 CPU just to see how it would work perf-wise.
> (Surprisingly well BTW, even with the Gloda overhead)

O I will say that for a testing-only machine, old computers come in
handy. I used to have a win98SE that I kept around just for old
Firefox/SeaMonkey testing before the OS support for that was dropped :-)

--
~Justin Wood (Callek)
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Re: Win2k support

Mark Banner-4
In reply to this post by JoeS-3
On 03/12/2011 04:06, JoeS wrote:
> So, I guess this is a matter of build config
> and Firefox direction does not always completely dictate Thunderbird
> direction.
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=707021#c7

That bug is only about enabling support to compile with MSVC2011 - it is
not about switching to MSVC2011.

Whilst we only do our release builds of Thunderbird with a specific msvc
version, we still support multiple versions so that developers can use
whichever of the versions they have.

Mark.
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Re: Win2k support

Gervase Markham
In reply to this post by JoeS-3
On 03/12/11 01:10, JoeS wrote:
> I understand that for TB release users, this will be 20 weeks or so down
> the road.
> IMO that's a very short lead time for Win2k users, given the lack of a
> public declaration of dropping win2k support.
> But, it is what it is.

Microsoft's support for Win2K ended, as far as I can tell, in July 2010.
http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3071

This means that it's very likely that there are unpatched security
vulnerabilities in Win2K, and you shouldn't be taking that machine
anywhere near the Internet.

https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/Unsupported_OSes#OS_Unsupported_By_Manufacturer

Gerv



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Re: Win2k support

Mark Banner-2
In reply to this post by JoeS-3
On 03/12/2011 01:10, JoeS wrote:
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=563318
> (msvc2010) switch trunk builds to use Visual C++ 2010
>
> I understand that for TB release users, this will be 20 weeks or so down
> the road.
> IMO that's a very short lead time for Win2k users, given the lack of a
> public declaration of dropping win2k support.

Although the bug has been filed, no decision has yet been made on
actually changing. Various factors are currently being considered.

> Maybe I'm one of the few nightly testers using Win2k, but it might be
> nice to publicize this to the TB community,
> (rather than waiting for an "update failed" message "your system does
> not support this version of Thunderbird")

Please remember this will affect Firefox as well as Thunderbird. It is
also worth noting that most of these discussions will happen on
mozilla.dev.planning before changes actually take place.

> Does anyone have any idea what percentage of TB users are on Win2k?

0.5%

Mark.
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Re: Win2k support

Robert Kaiser
In reply to this post by JoeS-3
JoeS schrieb:
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=563318
> (msvc2010) switch trunk builds to use Visual C++ 2010
>
> I understand that for TB release users, this will be 20 weeks or so down
> the road.
> IMO that's a very short lead time for Win2k users

Umm, 5 months is "a very short lead time"? In the IT and web world, it's
half an eternity... ;-)

Robert Kaiser


--
Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never
meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible
arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the
time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :)
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Re: Win2k support

Tranas
In reply to this post by Justin Wood (Callek)-2
On 2011.12.03 23:39, Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:

> JoeS wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, I figured as much.
>> I called myself looking out for the "low end" user by using Win2k on a
>> P3 CPU just to see how it would work perf-wise.
>> (Surprisingly well BTW, even with the Gloda overhead)
>
> O I will say that for a testing-only machine, old computers come in
> handy. I used to have a win98SE that I kept around just for old
> Firefox/SeaMonkey testing before the OS support for that was dropped :-)
>


Elitists like yourself presume Win2K users are either too ignorant to
think for themselves, have the money or choose to move up to your
obviously superior OS/hardware combo.

Now that Firefox has dropped to number three, that kind of attitude will
should help Tbird along in the same direction.
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Re: Win2k support

Justin Wood (Callek)-2
Tranas wrote:
> Elitists like yourself...

I really really fail to see how you come up with that conclusion based
on what I said in this thread. Please back up your accusations with
actual facts. Or just stop trolling.

Thanks
~Justin Wood (Callek)
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Re: Win2k support

Tranas
On 2011.12.05 21:04, Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:
> Tranas wrote:
>> Elitists like yourself...
>
> I really really fail to see how you come up with that conclusion based
> on what I said in this thread. Please back up your accusations with
> actual facts. Or just stop trolling.
>
> Thanks
> ~Justin Wood (Callek)


lol

read your own posts further up this thread.

"...I would have presumed that Microsoft did a good job of saying their
12 year old operating system is no longer supported, am I wrong?
...Given that you are already vulnerable to security exploits at the OS
level, its probably something that should be done now, rather than
simply waiting for Thunderbird to require it. ...I will say that for a
testing-only machine, old computers come in handy...."

Justin, self appointed commissar for OS correctness, Wood

Got a link to where we can get some of them postage pre-paid free,
invulnerable to security exploit, windows7 boxen?
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Re: Win2k support

Justin Wood (Callek)-2
Tranas wrote:

> On 2011.12.05 21:04, Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:
>> Tranas wrote:
>>> Elitists like yourself...
>>
>> I really really fail to see how you come up with that conclusion based
>> on what I said in this thread. Please back up your accusations with
>> actual facts. Or just stop trolling.
>>
>> Thanks
>> ~Justin Wood (Callek)
>
>
> lol
>
> read your own posts further up this thread.
>
> "...I would have presumed that Microsoft did a good job of saying their
> 12 year old operating system is no longer supported, am I wrong?
> ...Given that you are already vulnerable to security exploits at the OS
> level, its probably something that should be done now, rather than
> simply waiting for Thunderbird to require it. ...I will say that for a
> testing-only machine, old computers come in handy...."

Yes I said all those things.

But for your own edification lets expand on your quote that I I
truncated: "Elitists like yourself presume Win2K users are either too
ignorant to think for themselves, have the money or choose to move up to
your obviously superior OS/hardware combo."

Please point out for me where in any of the above I said anything even
remarkably close to "too ignorant to think for themselves", or where I
presumed "have the money" etc.

I know there *are* reasons people don't move up in OS Releases, money
being one of them. There are also reasons why you are HURTING yourself
and others when you use an old OS, especially one no longer supported by
the OS Manufacturer. Quite your diatribe it does not belong on this
list. -- Thanks.

> Justin, self appointed commissar for OS correctness, Wood
>
> Got a link to where we can get some of them postage pre-paid free,
> invulnerable to security exploit, windows7 boxen?

I'm sure some hacker would happily provide you with a hacked Win7 box,
that comes equipped with keyloggers etc so they can get your data. *OR*
you can upgrade to a Linux OS, that *is* free and current, and
Security-Supported.

--
~Justin Wood (Callek)

...this is the last message I respond to in this thread, unless you
start actually making some sense and providing real proof/arguments that
are beneficial to all.

p.p.s. I'm not a Thunderbird Dev, am not representative of their team,
and not a paid employee by mozilla at this time, and my words are
strictly my own, though I assume the views I express are shared by others.
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Re: Win2k support

JoeS-3
In reply to this post by Robert Kaiser
On 12/5/2011 9:56 AM, Robert Kaiser wrote:

> JoeS schrieb:
>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=563318
>> (msvc2010) switch trunk builds to use Visual C++ 2010
>>
>> I understand that for TB release users, this will be 20 weeks or so down
>> the road.
>> IMO that's a very short lead time for Win2k users
>
> Umm, 5 months is "a very short lead time"? In the IT and web world, it's
> half an eternity... ;-)
>
> Robert Kaiser
>
>

For some folks 20 _months_ wouldn't be enough time :)
AFAIK there has been no official announcement for dropping support.
I think that should come sooner, rather than later.
(The only reason I knew about it was stumbling upon the bug)

--
JoeS Using TB 11.0
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Re: Win2k support

Simon Paquet-2
JoeS wrote on 06. Dec 2011:

> For some folks 20 _months_ wouldn't be enough time :)
> AFAIK there has been no official announcement for dropping support.
> I think that should come sooner, rather than later.
> (The only reason I knew about it was stumbling upon the bug)

IMO the announcement should come from Mozilla as a whole, not just from
the TB folks. Therefore I would suggest that you raise this issue in
md.planning instead.

--
Simon
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Re: Win2k support

Robert Kaiser
In reply to this post by JoeS-3
JoeS schrieb:
> AFAIK there has been no official announcement for dropping support.

Mostly because there is no final decision yet.

> I think that should come sooner, rather than later.

I'm sure it will be made known once an actual decision is made.

Robert Kaiser
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