Why I am asking for standards.

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Why I am asking for standards.

David Farning
I would like to apologize to Alex. I'm not intending to attack you
personally.

Why this is important to me?  Firefox is a great product.  Currently
there appear to be around 30 official translations.

Lauchpad currently has 7500 translators working on around 190 languages
via a very simple web interface.  

As it stands, we will soon be able to import translations from
any .dtd/.proprities tree or .xpi for our translators to work on.  From
there, we will be able to make language pack for our users.

My efforts are aimed at determining how best to move the work done in
launchpad back upstream to mozilla where it will help the most mozilla
users.

thanks
-dtf

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Re: Why I am asking for standards.

Hung-Te Lin
* David Farning <[hidden email]> [051116 07:02]:
> As it stands, we will soon be able to import translations from
> any .dtd/.proprities tree or .xpi for our translators to work on.  From
> there, we will be able to make language pack for our users.
   We do have standards - DTD as XML and properties as Java resource
   format. All tools with good parsers (at least moz2po, mozlcdb, and
   human brain with diff and utf8 editors) can handle most files
   correctly right now (except some preprocessing commands like
   #expand).

May the source be with you,
--
    Hung-Te Lin <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]>
    Traditional Chinese Localization for Mozilla (zh-TW)
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Re: Why I am asking for standards.

davidf (Bugzilla)
In reply to this post by David Farning
David Farning wrote:

>I would like to apologize to Alex. I'm not intending to attack you
>personally.
>
>Why this is important to me?  Firefox is a great product.  Currently
>there appear to be around 30 official translations.
>
>Lauchpad currently has 7500 translators working on around 190 languages
>via a very simple web interface.  
>
>As it stands, we will soon be able to import translations from
>any .dtd/.proprities tree or .xpi for our translators to work on.  From
>there, we will be able to make language pack for our users.
>
>My efforts are aimed at determining how best to move the work done in
>launchpad back upstream to mozilla where it will help the most mozilla
>users.
>  
>
Of course, opensourcing launchpad will help :-)

I think at the moment its important to recognise that this is an
*incredibly* busy time for Firefox localization, and post-1.5 would be a
better time to look at addressing those issues that don't have a simple
fix or require discussing standards.

I speak as one intimately aware of the nuances of file formats :-)

David
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Re: Why I am asking for standards.

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by David Farning
David Farning wrote:

> I would like to apologize to Alex. I'm not intending to attack you
> personally.
>
> Why this is important to me?  Firefox is a great product.  Currently
> there appear to be around 30 official translations.
>
> Lauchpad currently has 7500 translators working on around 190 languages
> via a very simple web interface.  
>
> As it stands, we will soon be able to import translations from
> any .dtd/.proprities tree or .xpi for our translators to work on.  From
> there, we will be able to make language pack for our users.

This in itself is a HUGE item for discussion. For the l10n impact of it,
be sure to keep me on the line.
If this means that ubuntu intends to ship builds coming from modified
sources, this comes with a few loose ends, which should be discussed in
depth with mozilla.org and Mozilla Corporation. If you need contacts, I
can help. There are both technical and licensing parts to discuss here.

> My efforts are aimed at determining how best to move the work done in
> launchpad back upstream to mozilla where it will help the most mozilla
> users.

I have been shaving (which is one of the situations where men have time
to think, alongside going potty and buying beer), so I came up with the
right fix (TM) to your problem:

You shouldn't just serialize all your po to files and then compare,
rather, you should create a key->value mapping from your pos for each of
the mozilla source files, create a parser for the files with source
information, compare your version of the value with the deserialized
value of the original, and if it differs, write the changed value back
where it belongs in the original source.

Deserialized means unescaping all \.. for properties, and it probably
means to normalize-space for DTDs.

This way your round trip is totally transparent, and cannot interfere
with other tools, as long as they stick to the dataformat.

This process cannot add new key->value pairs, though, which may be a
good thing, because finding the right source position (including
localization note, in case of doubt) is hard. You could trick around
this problem by getting a source format from the en-US file, but that
may not work in all cases.

But for getting spell fixes or accesskey fixes or wording improvements
into nice patches, this will yield the best results.

Axel
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Re: Why I am asking for standards.

David Farning
In reply to this post by David Farning
On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 20:27 +0100, Axel Hecht wrote:
> David Farning wrote:
> > I would like to apologize to Alex. I'm not intending to attack you
> > personally.
> >
> > Why this is important to me?  Firefox is a great product.  Currently
> > there appear to be around 30 official translations.
> >
> > Lauchpad currently has 7500 translators working on around 190
languages
> > via a very simple web interface.  
> >
> > As it stands, we will soon be able to import translations from
> > any .dtd/.proprities tree or .xpi for our translators to work on.
From
> > there, we will be able to make language pack for our users.
>
> This in itself is a HUGE item for discussion. For the l10n impact of
it,
> be sure to keep me on the line.
> If this means that ubuntu intends to ship builds coming from modified
> sources, this comes with a few loose ends, which should be discussed
in
> depth with mozilla.org and Mozilla Corporation. If you need contacts,
I
> can help. There are both technical and licensing parts to discuss
here.

The Ubuntu legal and trademark guys have worked it out with mozilla.org.
I think it involves referring to our 'branded' firefox as a derived
product.  Not Using the name Mozilla-Firefox name, we are just firefox.
Not using the official logo, we leave off the fox on the globe....

> I have been shaving (which is one of the situations where men have
time
> to think, alongside going potty and buying beer), so I came up with
the
> right fix (TM) to your problem:
>
> You shouldn't just serialize all your po to files and then compare,
> rather, you should create a key->value mapping from your pos for each
of
> the mozilla source files, create a parser for the files with source
> information, compare your version of the value with the deserialized
> value of the original, and if it differs, write the changed value
back
> where it belongs in the original source.

I too am coming up with something along these lines.  Currently moz2po
makes a
.po file for each individual .dtd or properties files.  Launchpad works
better with with one (or a few .po files per application.)  This mean
that rather than just doing straight conversions on a per file basis, We
will need to create a large .po file containing all the message strings.

After the translators have done their work, We can walk through the
en-US template.  Replacing each English value with its correct
translated value.  This should eliminate a lot of the little formatting
issues.  

> This way your round trip is totally transparent, and cannot interfere
> with other tools, as long as they stick to the dataformat.

I am hoping that this allow for using en-US as a reference to which we
always comply.  There will be a few issues left, such as when ever .dtd
or .properties allow for some flexibility in how to represent a value.
As each of these issues comes up will can deal with them one at a time.

The parser is good.  It is very flexible in it's input.  But there going
to be times when I ask for decisions on how you would prefer us to write
the value back out.  

This is going to require a pretty significant rewrite of the moz2po and
po2moz logic.  The translation tools guys have already done most of the
heavy lifting.  Hopefully, I can get some patches together in the next
few weeks which meet your/our needs as well as their standards.

I'll keep you abreast of my progress.

Thanks
-dtf

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Re: Why I am asking for standards.

Andras Timar
In reply to this post by David Farning
David Farning írta:
>
> After the translators have done their work, We can walk through the
> en-US template.  Replacing each English value with its correct
> translated value.  This should eliminate a lot of the little formatting
> issues.  

Please keep in mind that the same English string can have different
translations depending on context. The PO format is not very suitable
for this scenario. I know there are hacks like prefixes in the msgid's
etc. I suggest you handle all strings independently when you import them
into Launchpad.

Cheers,
Andras
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