Who's managing Thunderbird?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
7 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Who's managing Thunderbird?

flod
That's a question that has been bothering me since Simon Paquet [1] left
his role as l10n coordinator but it's become more pressing lately: who's
managing Thunderbird's localization? I have absolutely no clue.

Thunderbird moved from Mozilla to Mozilla Messaging and then back to
base as part of Mozilla Labs. Does this mean that Thunderbird is still
considered a main product (as Firefox)? All I know is that Thunderbird's
bugs are displayed as high priority on the web dashboard, but:

  * people are complaining in bugs and getting no clear answer [2].
    Looking at bugs I suppose that Andrei Hajdukewycz is managing web
    bugs, but again that something I'm deducing by myself.
  * reviews on sign-offs are incredibly slow. Who's managing this part?
    For example we lost one respin on beta channel, while on aurora we
    have a couple reviews pending, one being almost two weeks old.

The conclusion from the outside is that Thunderbird is clearly not ready
for rapid release cycle.

I hope you don't misunderstand the tone of this mail, but I think that
one of the main problems in the Mozilla Project lately has been the lack
of communication, and this is a clear example of that. With the current
status of Thunderbird's l10n I don't see new people getting involved,
while I see a big risk of people letting go.

Francesco

[1] gosh, it's already been one year http://thunderbird-l10n.blogspot.com/
[2] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678275#c7
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Who's managing Thunderbird?

Andrei Hajdukewycz-2
On 9/7/2011 1:55 AM, flod wrote:

> That's a question that has been bothering me since Simon Paquet [1] left
> his role as l10n coordinator but it's become more pressing lately: who's
> managing Thunderbird's localization? I have absolutely no clue.
>
> Thunderbird moved from Mozilla to Mozilla Messaging and then back to
> base as part of Mozilla Labs. Does this mean that Thunderbird is still
> considered a main product (as Firefox)? All I know is that Thunderbird's
> bugs are displayed as high priority on the web dashboard, but:
>
> * people are complaining in bugs and getting no clear answer [2].
> Looking at bugs I suppose that Andrei Hajdukewycz is managing web
> bugs, but again that something I'm deducing by myself.

Hi, I'm the one who's managing Thunderbird web l10n bugs at the moment.
Unfortunately this task fell into my lap when others became too busy to
handle it and I have many other things on my plate including managing
all of our web properties and our AMO presence, etc as well as doing all
the actual development on these things! So sometimes these bugs get lost
in the shuffle. I've been trying to fix the speed of response with web
l10n bugs and I believe I've mostly caught up at this point.

The particular bug you referenced, I didn't answer in the tracking bug
but Milos helped me out and a couple of the individual bugs had already
been merged and committed. Generally speaking, pinging in a tracking bug
will get your problems fixed. This shouldn't be necessary, and I hope
that we will be able to get more help with l10n things and other web
tasks as well so that I'm less overloaded.

Milos will be helping out with Thunderbird web l10n bugs until we do get
more help.

> * reviews on sign-offs are incredibly slow. Who's managing this part?
> For example we lost one respin on beta channel, while on aurora we
> have a couple reviews pending, one being almost two weeks old.
>
> The conclusion from the outside is that Thunderbird is clearly not ready
> for rapid release cycle.

I can say that we weren't really ready for this from a web standpoint,
no, but we're catching up. Unfortunately the very nature of rapid
release is that it could not be allowed to wait for everything to be
ready otherwise it most likely never would have happened :) Lots of
people are playing catch up.

As far as review sign-offs for product l10n itself, I'm not sure about
that but I'll try to get someone who can answer that to post here as well.

>
> I hope you don't misunderstand the tone of this mail, but I think that
> one of the main problems in the Mozilla Project lately has been the lack
> of communication, and this is a clear example of that. With the current
> status of Thunderbird's l10n I don't see new people getting involved,
> while I see a big risk of people letting go.

I think the tone of your mail is fine, and I completely understand the
complaints. Right now Thunderbird l10n and webdev is understaffed and
has also been further hurt by the increased load on Firefox l10n people
who used to help out. These problems won't be fixed overnight, but we
are not ignoring them and we are well aware that the current situation
is not acceptable.

I agree communication in this area has been bad, we need some
Thunderbird web-related blog posts and more announcements so that people
can more easily find out what's going on. I am really going to try to
improve this as soon as possible. For starters, I'll be watching this
newsgroup and the web-l10n one.

>
> Francesco
>
> [1] gosh, it's already been one year http://thunderbird-l10n.blogspot.com/
> [2] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678275#c7


--
Andrei Hajdukewycz
Thunderbird Web Developer
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Who's managing Thunderbird?

flod
Hi Andrei,
thanks a lot for your answer (I'm leaving your original reply below
since you didn't add the mail address for the list), now the situation
is much clearer.

Another thing that should be updated is MDC
https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Thunderbird_Localization

Francesco

> On 9/7/2011 1:55 AM, flod wrote:
>> That's a question that has been bothering me since Simon Paquet [1] left
>> his role as l10n coordinator but it's become more pressing lately: who's
>> managing Thunderbird's localization? I have absolutely no clue.
>>
>> Thunderbird moved from Mozilla to Mozilla Messaging and then back to
>> base as part of Mozilla Labs. Does this mean that Thunderbird is still
>> considered a main product (as Firefox)? All I know is that Thunderbird's
>> bugs are displayed as high priority on the web dashboard, but:
>>
>> * people are complaining in bugs and getting no clear answer [2].
>> Looking at bugs I suppose that Andrei Hajdukewycz is managing web
>> bugs, but again that something I'm deducing by myself.
>
> Hi, I'm the one who's managing Thunderbird web l10n bugs at the
> moment. Unfortunately this task fell into my lap when others became
> too busy to handle it and I have many other things on my plate
> including managing all of our web properties and our AMO presence, etc
> as well as doing all the actual development on these things! So
> sometimes these bugs get lost in the shuffle. I've been trying to fix
> the speed of response with web l10n bugs and I believe I've mostly
> caught up at this point.
>
> The particular bug you referenced, I didn't answer in the tracking bug
> but Milos helped me out and a couple of the individual bugs had
> already been merged and committed. Generally speaking, pinging in a
> tracking bug will get your problems fixed. This shouldn't be
> necessary, and I hope that we will be able to get more help with l10n
> things and other web tasks as well so that I'm less overloaded.
>
> Milos will be helping out with Thunderbird web l10n bugs until we do
> get more help.
>
>> * reviews on sign-offs are incredibly slow. Who's managing this part?
>> For example we lost one respin on beta channel, while on aurora we
>> have a couple reviews pending, one being almost two weeks old.
>>
>> The conclusion from the outside is that Thunderbird is clearly not ready
>> for rapid release cycle.
>
> I can say that we weren't really ready for this from a web standpoint,
> no, but we're catching up. Unfortunately the very nature of rapid
> release is that it could not be allowed to wait for everything to be
> ready otherwise it most likely never would have happened :) Lots of
> people are playing catch up.
>
> As far as review sign-offs for product l10n itself, I'm not sure about
> that but I'll try to get someone who can answer that to post here as
> well.
>
>>
>> I hope you don't misunderstand the tone of this mail, but I think that
>> one of the main problems in the Mozilla Project lately has been the lack
>> of communication, and this is a clear example of that. With the current
>> status of Thunderbird's l10n I don't see new people getting involved,
>> while I see a big risk of people letting go.
>
> I think the tone of your mail is fine, and I completely understand the
> complaints. Right now Thunderbird l10n and webdev is understaffed and
> has also been further hurt by the increased load on Firefox l10n
> people who used to help out. These problems won't be fixed overnight,
> but we are not ignoring them and we are well aware that the current
> situation is not acceptable.
>
> I agree communication in this area has been bad, we need some
> Thunderbird web-related blog posts and more announcements so that
> people can more easily find out what's going on. I am really going to
> try to improve this as soon as possible. For starters, I'll be
> watching this newsgroup and the web-l10n one.
>
>>
>> Francesco
>>
>> [1] gosh, it's already been one year
>> http://thunderbird-l10n.blogspot.com/
>> [2] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678275#c7
>
>

_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Who's managing Thunderbird?

Mark Banner-4
In reply to this post by flod
On 07/09/2011 06:55, flod wrote:
> That's a question that has been bothering me since Simon Paquet [1] left
> his role as l10n coordinator but it's become more pressing lately: who's
> managing Thunderbird's localization? I have absolutely no clue.

I've been managing the product side of Thunderbird's localization. I've
done some announcements, but I've generally been emailing people direct
since the start of rapid release so you may not have seen too much from
me if you've been keeping up to date.

> * reviews on sign-offs are incredibly slow. Who's managing this part?
> For example we lost one respin on beta channel, while on aurora we
> have a couple reviews pending, one being almost two weeks old.

Unfortunately I'm not exclusively L10n, so I have release work and other
development work to continue on.

The review for sign-off you've got on the beta channel was actually
requested the day after I gave the go for the second beta (respin as you
call it) of 7.0. We were actually delayed in producing that respin due
to the security releases, so it has only just been released.

I always check the pending review queue for L10n before sending out a go
for a beta build to ensure I get that latest from everyone, and
generally I try and look at it every couple of days as well.

As I mentioned, the last week or so we've been tied up with security
releases, so I've let L10n reviews slip whilst that has been happening -
which is why some of the ones on aurora are quite old - however I should
be able to catch up on them again this week.

> The conclusion from the outside is that Thunderbird is clearly not ready
> for rapid release cycle.

It is true that there has been a lot of work to do, and we've been
playing catch-up. Whilst we're not quite in the place where we're
running smoothly, I think it is only to be expected as this is only the
second time round the actual cycle for us. We are also in a much better
position this time round overall, than we were last cycle at this stage.

We are also still looking at getting someone dedicated for L10n on
Thunderbird, I'm hoping this will actually happen before the end of this
year.

> With the current
> status of Thunderbird's l10n I don't see new people getting involved,
> while I see a big risk of people letting go.

I was more concerned with teams not keeping up due to the rapid release
cycle. As it is, I've only heard from one team where this has been the
case, and I've been impressed with the effort and speed at which all the
other Thunderbird localisations have switched to and kept up to date
with the rapid release. For which we owe you all a great big thanks.

Hopefully this helps explain a bit about where we are. I'm sure we'll
get better over the next couple of months as we all get more used to the
process and learn what needs doing when.

Mark.
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Who's managing Thunderbird?

flod
Il 07/09/11 11.02, Mark Banner ha scritto:
> Hopefully this helps explain a bit about where we are. I'm sure we'll
> get better over the next couple of months as we all get more used to
> the process and learn what needs doing when.
Yep, your message together with Andrei's reply explain a lot of the
situation.

To be honest, while I'm responsible for the web stuff, I'm not even in
charge of Thunderbird localization for our team, but I tried to help our
localizer to port some changes from aurora to beta (with some problems)
and I was quite puzzled by the situation.

At this point, I really hope you'll be able to find a l10n dedicated
person to work (or help) on both sides ;-)

Francesco
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Who's managing Thunderbird?

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by flod
I'd like to add a bit to what Mark and Andrei said.

The corporate structure was at best a lame excuse to limit the scope of
things that I worked on. When Simon left, Mark stepped up as much as his
time permitted, thanks to both of them. So much for the history of things.

Going forward, I'm torn, to be frank. There are pieces in what we do
that are probably better done for all apps on the release cycle at once.
There are also a host of things where the folks coordinating actually
need in-depth knowledge about the specific part of the project.

I'd invite you guys to comment on where you see which dominating, and
where you'd see gaps. Either manpower or tooling.

Here are some areas and my thoughts about them.

Outreach emails are in probably in the bucket crossing products. I'm not
really systematic about those, mostly because we only gather experience
every six weeks. But I'm pretty sure that one mail per team along the
lines of "this is to do on aurora" is a better setup for that messaging
than a mail per product to some overlapping groups. This is also a field
where I hope we'll soon get more manpower.

Sign-off reviews require a good deal of understanding of the code
involved, and also a good connection back to the dev community to bring
the experience of things going wrong back to code reviews. Thus, I
personally favor having specialists like me for fx/fennec or Mark for TB
and Callek for SM to do those reviews.

Web bugs is probably the piece that's currently the biggest hack in our
setup.
http://blog.mozilla.com/webdev/2011/08/22/how-apache-some-magic-helped-move-mozilla-to-org/ 
has the gory details about how unified our site really is behind the
scenes. In other words, for you out there. As always, "we're working on
it", but it's not a small problem to solve. The folks coordinating the
work here need a good deal of product-specific knowledge around why a
particular message is as it is, etc. That favors having specialists per
product handle this. On the other hand, if 5,6,7 different guys start
pulling a single localizer into all kinds of direction ... you know the
feeling.

New locales, oh, hard. I think we're making some progress with relying
on more mentors to get new locales in. With our diverse and edgy tool
ecosystem, there are no universally good answers, and giving OK answers
within the context is something that just needs time, and people that
are fond of how they're doing it. I'm optimistic that we'll get some
help with the docs soon, though.

That'd be my thinking these days.

Some context, we're willing to add manpower, volunteer and paid,
contracting/hired. That said, "more of the same" isn't realistic,
different people do things differently. Also, this is more of a problem
of opportunity than anything else. That is, we're looking for
opportunities with significant impact, "willingness" of an individual to
make that impact, and that individual being neither under- nor
over-qualified.

Axel

On 07.09.11 07:55, flod wrote:

> That's a question that has been bothering me since Simon Paquet [1] left
> his role as l10n coordinator but it's become more pressing lately: who's
> managing Thunderbird's localization? I have absolutely no clue.
>
> Thunderbird moved from Mozilla to Mozilla Messaging and then back to
> base as part of Mozilla Labs. Does this mean that Thunderbird is still
> considered a main product (as Firefox)? All I know is that Thunderbird's
> bugs are displayed as high priority on the web dashboard, but:
>
> * people are complaining in bugs and getting no clear answer [2].
> Looking at bugs I suppose that Andrei Hajdukewycz is managing web
> bugs, but again that something I'm deducing by myself.
> * reviews on sign-offs are incredibly slow. Who's managing this part?
> For example we lost one respin on beta channel, while on aurora we
> have a couple reviews pending, one being almost two weeks old.
>
> The conclusion from the outside is that Thunderbird is clearly not ready
> for rapid release cycle.
>
> I hope you don't misunderstand the tone of this mail, but I think that
> one of the main problems in the Mozilla Project lately has been the lack
> of communication, and this is a clear example of that. With the current
> status of Thunderbird's l10n I don't see new people getting involved,
> while I see a big risk of people letting go.
>
> Francesco
>
> [1] gosh, it's already been one year http://thunderbird-l10n.blogspot.com/
> [2] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678275#c7

_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Who's managing Thunderbird?

Vito Smolej-3
I can just add a plus to all the contributions here - as a sign of  my
concern. I hope this will be among the subjects at the AllHands and
if not (sigh), then at least at the MozCamp. To show, how this all
looks from "down there", see

http:/vitosmo.tumblr.com/post/6824248939/

Regards

smo

On 7 Sep., 13:39, Axel Hecht <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'd like to add a bit to what Mark and Andrei said.
>
> The corporate structure was at best a lame excuse to limit the scope of
> things that I worked on. When Simon left, Mark stepped up as much as his
> time permitted, thanks to both of them. So much for the history of things.
>
> Going forward, I'm torn, to be frank. There are pieces in what we do
> that are probably better done for all apps on the release cycle at once.
> There are also a host of things where the folks coordinating actually
> need in-depth knowledge about the specific part of the project.
>
> I'd invite you guys to comment on where you see which dominating, and
> where you'd see gaps. Either manpower or tooling.
>
> Here are some areas and my thoughts about them.
>
> Outreach emails are in probably in the bucket crossing products. I'm not
> really systematic about those, mostly because we only gather experience
> every six weeks. But I'm pretty sure that one mail per team along the
> lines of "this is to do on aurora" is a better setup for that messaging
> than a mail per product to some overlapping groups. This is also a field
> where I hope we'll soon get more manpower.
>
> Sign-off reviews require a good deal of understanding of the code
> involved, and also a good connection back to the dev community to bring
> the experience of things going wrong back to code reviews. Thus, I
> personally favor having specialists like me for fx/fennec or Mark for TB
> and Callek for SM to do those reviews.
>
> Web bugs is probably the piece that's currently the biggest hack in our
> setup.http://blog.mozilla.com/webdev/2011/08/22/how-apache-some-magic-helpe...
> has the gory details about how unified our site really is behind the
> scenes. In other words, for you out there. As always, "we're working on
> it", but it's not a small problem to solve. The folks coordinating the
> work here need a good deal of product-specific knowledge around why a
> particular message is as it is, etc. That favors having specialists per
> product handle this. On the other hand, if 5,6,7 different guys start
> pulling a single localizer into all kinds of direction ... you know the
> feeling.
>
> New locales, oh, hard. I think we're making some progress with relying
> on more mentors to get new locales in. With our diverse and edgy tool
> ecosystem, there are no universally good answers, and giving OK answers
> within the context is something that just needs time, and people that
> are fond of how they're doing it. I'm optimistic that we'll get some
> help with the docs soon, though.
>
> That'd be my thinking these days.
>
> Some context, we're willing to add manpower, volunteer and paid,
> contracting/hired. That said, "more of the same" isn't realistic,
> different people do things differently. Also, this is more of a problem
> of opportunity than anything else. That is, we're looking for
> opportunities with significant impact, "willingness" of an individual to
> make that impact, and that individual being neither under- nor
> over-qualified.
>
> Axel
>
> On 07.09.11 07:55, flod wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > That's a question that has been bothering me since Simon Paquet [1] left
> > his role as l10n coordinator but it's become more pressing lately: who's
> > managing Thunderbird's localization? I have absolutely no clue.
>
> > Thunderbird moved from Mozilla to Mozilla Messaging and then back to
> > base as part of Mozilla Labs. Does this mean that Thunderbird is still
> > considered a main product (as Firefox)? All I know is that Thunderbird's
> > bugs are displayed as high priority on the web dashboard, but:
>
> > * people are complaining in bugs and getting no clear answer [2].
> > Looking at bugs I suppose that Andrei Hajdukewycz is managing web
> > bugs, but again that something I'm deducing by myself.
> > * reviews on sign-offs are incredibly slow. Who's managing this part?
> > For example we lost one respin on beta channel, while on aurora we
> > have a couple reviews pending, one being almost two weeks old.
>
> > The conclusion from the outside is that Thunderbird is clearly not ready
> > for rapid release cycle.
>
> > I hope you don't misunderstand the tone of this mail, but I think that
> > one of the main problems in the Mozilla Project lately has been the lack
> > of communication, and this is a clear example of that. With the current
> > status of Thunderbird's l10n I don't see new people getting involved,
> > while I see a big risk of people letting go.
>
> > Francesco
>
> > [1] gosh, it's already been one yearhttp://thunderbird-l10n.blogspot.com/
> > [2]https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678275#c7

_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n