What's going on?

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What's going on?

Cédric Corazza
Hi,

Sorry, this is a rant.

What about this new l10n process that were supposed to be more agile?
In my opinion, this is more agile for coders, certainly not for
localizers. Some beta localized versions are going to be spread world
wide and we hadn't any chance to test them before.
Code freeze is now equivalent to string freeze.
Does Mozilla put aside again l10n effort like ot was the case in early
times?
We are a community, and as far I understood, reading the manifesto and
all the good words, l10n is part of the project, and this hectic and
fuzzy move is insane, and will let the local communities receive reports
about non-localized strings, window widths issues and so on.
Please, reconsider the current l10n policy: this is not manageable as is.
Regards

PS: I don't care to be the black sheep, whenever there will be a l10n
problem that raise that nobody dare to point, I will ;-) .

Cédric
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Re: What's going on?

Kadir Topal
Am 03.08.10 23:49, schrieb Cédric Corazza:

> Hi,
>
> Sorry, this is a rant.
>
> What about this new l10n process that were supposed to be more agile?
> In my opinion, this is more agile for coders, certainly not for
> localizers. Some beta localized versions are going to be spread world
> wide and we hadn't any chance to test them before.
> Code freeze is now equivalent to string freeze.
> Does Mozilla put aside again l10n effort like ot was the case in early
> times?
> We are a community, and as far I understood, reading the manifesto and
> all the good words, l10n is part of the project, and this hectic and
> fuzzy move is insane, and will let the local communities receive reports
> about non-localized strings, window widths issues and so on.
> Please, reconsider the current l10n policy: this is not manageable as is.
> Regards
>
> PS: I don't care to be the black sheep, whenever there will be a l10n
> problem that raise that nobody dare to point, I will ;-) .

I agree with Cedric that it really is a problem to release Firefox with
non-localized strings in countries where localized versions are the
norm. People will blame localizers of sloppiness for that, or much
worse: not be able to understand how to use a feature (case in point: sync).

I also see the need for development to be agile and iterate fast for the
beta process, and waiting for all 75 locales to catch up before
releasing a beta version can not be an option.

So, maybe we could compromise: As a localizer I see the beta cycle as an
exception rather than the rule. How about keeping the fast development
process, but also giving localizers a 24 hour string freeze window to
catch up? Of course with the normal string freeze and time span for the
final Firefox 4 release.

--Kadir

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Re: What's going on?

Kadir Topal
In reply to this post by Cédric Corazza
Am 03.08.10 23:49, schrieb Cédric Corazza:

> Hi,
>
> Sorry, this is a rant.
>
> What about this new l10n process that were supposed to be more agile?
> In my opinion, this is more agile for coders, certainly not for
> localizers. Some beta localized versions are going to be spread world
> wide and we hadn't any chance to test them before.
> Code freeze is now equivalent to string freeze.
> Does Mozilla put aside again l10n effort like ot was the case in early
> times?
> We are a community, and as far I understood, reading the manifesto and
> all the good words, l10n is part of the project, and this hectic and
> fuzzy move is insane, and will let the local communities receive reports
> about non-localized strings, window widths issues and so on.
> Please, reconsider the current l10n policy: this is not manageable as is.
> Regards
>
> PS: I don't care to be the black sheep, whenever there will be a l10n
> problem that raise that nobody dare to point, I will ;-) .

I agree with Cedric that it really is a problem to release Firefox with
non-localized strings in countries where localized versions are the
norm. People will blame localizers of sloppiness for that, or much
worse: not be able to understand how to use a feature (case in point: sync).

I also see the need for development to be agile and iterate fast for the
beta process, and waiting for all 75 locales to catch up before
releasing a beta version can not be an option.

So, maybe we could compromise: As a localizer I see the beta cycle as an
exception rather than the rule. How about keeping the fast development
process, but also giving localizers a 24 hour string freeze window to
catch up? Of course with the normal string freeze and time span for the
final Firefox 4 release.

--Kadir

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Re: What's going on?

Toni Hermoso Pulido-2
In reply to this post by Cédric Corazza
Al 03/08/10 23:49, En/na Cédric Corazza ha escrit:

> Hi,
>
> Sorry, this is a rant.
>
> What about this new l10n process that were supposed to be more agile?
> In my opinion, this is more agile for coders, certainly not for
> localizers. Some beta localized versions are going to be spread world
> wide and we hadn't any chance to test them before.
> Code freeze is now equivalent to string freeze.
> Does Mozilla put aside again l10n effort like ot was the case in early
> times?
> We are a community, and as far I understood, reading the manifesto and
> all the good words, l10n is part of the project, and this hectic and
> fuzzy move is insane, and will let the local communities receive reports
> about non-localized strings, window widths issues and so on.
> Please, reconsider the current l10n policy: this is not manageable as is.
> Regards
>
> PS: I don't care to be the black sheep, whenever there will be a l10n
> problem that raise that nobody dare to point, I will ;-) .

One opinion/suggestion,

in betas (at least first ones), in order to minimize the stress on
localizers but, at the same time, make their builds be part in these
preliminary releases, I think incomplete translations should be accepted.
A threshold should be defined, let's say, up to 50-100 untranslated strings…
My only concern would be that these untranslated strings did not end up
accidentally in stable releases. Good checking would be needed before RCs.

My 2 cents,
--
Toni Hermoso Pulido
http://www.cau.cat
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Re: What's going on?

Benjamin Smedberg
In reply to this post by Cédric Corazza
On 8/4/10 11:38 AM, Toni Hermoso Pulido wrote:

> One opinion/suggestion,
>
> in betas (at least first ones), in order to minimize the stress on
> localizers but, at the same time, make their builds be part in these
> preliminary releases, I think incomplete translations should be accepted.
> A threshold should be defined, let's say, up to 50-100 untranslated strings…
> My only concern would be that these untranslated strings did not end up
> accidentally in stable releases. Good checking would be needed before RCs.

Aren't we already doing this? It is my understanding that there is no
requirement that the betas be fully translated.

--BDS

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Re: What's going on?

Cédric Corazza
In reply to this post by Cédric Corazza
Le 04/08/2010 17:38, Toni Hermoso Pulido a écrit :

> One opinion/suggestion,
>
> in betas (at least first ones), in order to minimize the stress on
> localizers but, at the same time, make their builds be part in these
> preliminary releases, I think incomplete translations should be accepted.
> A threshold should be defined, let's say, up to 50-100 untranslated strings…
> My only concern would be that these untranslated strings did not end up
> accidentally in stable releases. Good checking would be needed before RCs.
>
> My 2 cents,

If we have no other solution than the current one in terms of timing, it
would be nice to write a warning in the beta download page about
possible strings not localized.
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Re: What's going on?

Toni Hermoso Pulido-2
In reply to this post by Benjamin Smedberg
Al 04/08/10 17:51, En/na Benjamin Smedberg ha escrit:

> On 8/4/10 11:38 AM, Toni Hermoso Pulido wrote:
>
>> One opinion/suggestion,
>>
>> in betas (at least first ones), in order to minimize the stress on
>> localizers but, at the same time, make their builds be part in these
>> preliminary releases, I think incomplete translations should be accepted.
>> A threshold should be defined, let's say, up to 50-100 untranslated
>> strings…
>> My only concern would be that these untranslated strings did not end up
>> accidentally in stable releases. Good checking would be needed before
>> RCs.
>
> Aren't we already doing this? It is my understanding that there is no
> requirement that the betas be fully translated.
>

Well, maybe you are right but, AFAIK in present scenario, the localizer
must copy the strings from English version to the target locale if
he/she does want builds not to fail.
Indeed, I was suggesting this could be done somehow automatically and
localizers could keep watching missing / fuzzy string in the dashboard
for next versions.

--
Toni Hermoso Pulido
http://www.cau.cat
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Re: What's going on?

Toni Hermoso Pulido-2
In reply to this post by Cédric Corazza
Al 04/08/10 17:57, En/na Cédric Corazza ha escrit:

> Le 04/08/2010 17:38, Toni Hermoso Pulido a écrit :
>
>> One opinion/suggestion,
>>
>> in betas (at least first ones), in order to minimize the stress on
>> localizers but, at the same time, make their builds be part in these
>> preliminary releases, I think incomplete translations should be accepted.
>> A threshold should be defined, let's say, up to 50-100 untranslated strings…
>> My only concern would be that these untranslated strings did not end up
>> accidentally in stable releases. Good checking would be needed before RCs.
>>
>> My 2 cents,
>
> If we have no other solution than the current one in terms of timing, it
> would be nice to write a warning in the beta download page about
> possible strings not localized.

+1
I think users can accept the existence of a few untranslated strings in
first beta versions. Even, if they complain about untranslated strings
through the feedback system, this may not be so negative in the end,
because accidentally this could encourage them to provide other kind of
non-l10n feedback as well and get involved in the very translation
community.

Just some thoughts,
--
Toni Hermoso Pulido
http://www.cau.cat
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Re: What's going on?

flod
In reply to this post by Toni Hermoso Pulido-2
  Il 04/08/10 18.01, Toni Hermoso Pulido ha scritto:
> Well, maybe you are right but, AFAIK in present scenario, the localizer
> must copy the strings from English version to the target locale if
> he/she does want builds not to fail.
If I'm not wrong, all current nightly builds and fx4 beta releases are
using l10n-merge, so they're automatically taking missing strings from
en-US.

Francesco
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Re: What's going on?

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by Benjamin Smedberg
On 04.08.10 18:01, Toni Hermoso Pulido wrote:

> Al 04/08/10 17:51, En/na Benjamin Smedberg ha escrit:
>> On 8/4/10 11:38 AM, Toni Hermoso Pulido wrote:
>>
>>> One opinion/suggestion,
>>>
>>> in betas (at least first ones), in order to minimize the stress on
>>> localizers but, at the same time, make their builds be part in these
>>> preliminary releases, I think incomplete translations should be accepted.
>>> A threshold should be defined, let's say, up to 50-100 untranslated
>>> strings…
>>> My only concern would be that these untranslated strings did not end up
>>> accidentally in stable releases. Good checking would be needed before
>>> RCs.
>>
>> Aren't we already doing this? It is my understanding that there is no
>> requirement that the betas be fully translated.
>>
>
> Well, maybe you are right but, AFAIK in present scenario, the localizer
> must copy the strings from English version to the target locale if
> he/she does want builds not to fail.
> Indeed, I was suggesting this could be done somehow automatically and
> localizers could keep watching missing / fuzzy string in the dashboard
> for next versions.

That's not right, we're using l10n-merge just like in the nightlies.

Axel


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Re: What's going on?

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by Cédric Corazza
On 04.08.10 18:09, Toni Hermoso Pulido wrote:

> Al 04/08/10 17:57, En/na Cédric Corazza ha escrit:
>> Le 04/08/2010 17:38, Toni Hermoso Pulido a écrit :
>>
>>> One opinion/suggestion,
>>>
>>> in betas (at least first ones), in order to minimize the stress on
>>> localizers but, at the same time, make their builds be part in these
>>> preliminary releases, I think incomplete translations should be accepted.
>>> A threshold should be defined, let's say, up to 50-100 untranslated strings…
>>> My only concern would be that these untranslated strings did not end up
>>> accidentally in stable releases. Good checking would be needed before RCs.
>>>
>>> My 2 cents,
>>
>> If we have no other solution than the current one in terms of timing, it
>> would be nice to write a warning in the beta download page about
>> possible strings not localized.
>
> +1
> I think users can accept the existence of a few untranslated strings in
> first beta versions. Even, if they complain about untranslated strings
> through the feedback system, this may not be so negative in the end,
> because accidentally this could encourage them to provide other kind of
> non-l10n feedback as well and get involved in the very translation
> community.
>
> Just some thoughts,

Would "Known Issues" on the release notes be good enough?

Axel
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Re: What's going on?

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by Cédric Corazza
On 04.08.10 17:38, Toni Hermoso Pulido wrote:

> Al 03/08/10 23:49, En/na Cédric Corazza ha escrit:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Sorry, this is a rant.
>>
>> What about this new l10n process that were supposed to be more agile?
>> In my opinion, this is more agile for coders, certainly not for
>> localizers. Some beta localized versions are going to be spread world
>> wide and we hadn't any chance to test them before.
>> Code freeze is now equivalent to string freeze.
>> Does Mozilla put aside again l10n effort like ot was the case in early
>> times?
>> We are a community, and as far I understood, reading the manifesto and
>> all the good words, l10n is part of the project, and this hectic and
>> fuzzy move is insane, and will let the local communities receive reports
>> about non-localized strings, window widths issues and so on.
>> Please, reconsider the current l10n policy: this is not manageable as is.
>> Regards
>>
>> PS: I don't care to be the black sheep, whenever there will be a l10n
>> problem that raise that nobody dare to point, I will ;-) .
>
> One opinion/suggestion,
>
> in betas (at least first ones), in order to minimize the stress on
> localizers but, at the same time, make their builds be part in these
> preliminary releases, I think incomplete translations should be accepted.
> A threshold should be defined, let's say, up to 50-100 untranslated strings…
> My only concern would be that these untranslated strings did not end up
> accidentally in stable releases. Good checking would be needed before RCs.

Yes, I expect at least the last beta to be 0 non-localized strings only.

I'll also look into nagging individual locales into actually updating on
their strings, and potentially remove them from a beta cycle, if
compare-locales gets too out of hand. Not exactly trivial when we have
new sources but no new sign-off.

Axel
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Re: What's going on?

Mike Beltzner
In reply to this post by Kadir Topal
Hi everyone,

I don't regularly track this newsgroup, but Seth and Axel brought this
thread to my attention and hoped that I could help answer the key
question of: "what's going on?". For what it's worth, this is also
being discussed in mozilla.dev.planning, and everyone here is welcome
to ask questions in that group, which is used for product planning. Or
you can have a representative such as Axel or Seth bring your views
forward. Or you can just email me ([hidden email]) if you'd
prefer that.

We are a single team, with a shared goal of shipping Firefox to a
global audience. I'm extremely interested in ensuring that we have as
many locales as possible participating in our beta program, as we want
to ensure that our beta testing audience is globally representative,
not focused on en-US only. I've worked with Axel, Seth and others to
this end since I started participating in Firefox releases, and the
result has been that in recent years we've produced localized beta
builds, and had much better co-ordination on string freezes. I want
everyone here to know that I appreciate the hard work that you put
into the product, and recognize the passion and pride you take in the
products themselves.

During development, we expect the code and user interface to change
frequently. We are doing our best to communicate these expected
changes up front, and in cases of large landings with user-visible
changes in interaction or interface, they are called out at the weekly
development (Tuesday) and planning (Wednesday) meetings. I encourage
everyone to read the notes from those meetings, and to feel free to
leave questions to be answered.

Frequent milestones are the easiest way for us to maintain checkpoints
on shipping schedule. We need to stabilize and update our beta
audience frequently as well to spot regressions, as well as to get
early feedback which may result in us once again changing the code,
including the user interface. This includes strings.

So this creates a situation where we have frequent milestone
iterations with ever-changing code. That's not ideal for people trying
to translate strings, so we looked for a way to be agile there, too.
The solution was to use l10n-merge which would allow localized builds
to be "partially localized" but also update as frequently as our beta
milestones to improve.

Yes, there's a chicken-and-egg problem where if strings land late in
the cycle, a string you've translated could get changed at the last
minute. We can try to resolve that by saying that for every beta cycle
there will be a string freeze the day before the code freeze (great
suggestion, Kadir!) and I'll take that forward. I do think that
ultimately we need to change our expectations for localized beta
builds, and understand that they *will* contain bugs, both functional
and in terms of localization. I don't think that needs to make the
localizers look back - in fact, I think it makes them look awesome. It
means that our localization teams are tracking closer-than-ever to
nightly builds, and giving their beta testing audiences the best
possible experience.

Our developers take the same pride in their work, and have gotten much
better at being able to predict when code changes will land and stick.
Sometimes unexpected problems arise, and we all have to be
understanding when that happens, and think about what the best path
forward is in order to accomplish our goals. That's what's happened
recently with Sync. All indications from the tryserver and mobile
builds said that it was safe to land, but starting on Thursday we
found test problems which delayed that landing. We tried to save it
with 11th hour actions, but all for naught. Nobody's happy about it,
but from time to time it happens.

I think we should focus on the bright spots - the things that are
working - and how we can achieve our shared goals of co-ordinating
work and remaining agile, instead of throwing up our hands and
assuming that it's impossible.

cheers,
mike
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Re: What's going on?

Benjamin Smedberg
In reply to this post by Axel Hecht
On 8/4/10 1:29 PM, Axel Hecht wrote:

> Yes, I expect at least the last beta to be 0 non-localized strings only.

Why can't this wait until release candidates? It sounds like we're
artificially shortening the timeframe for translations by two weeks. Last
beta is after string freeze, but I don't know why we can't allow a few
untranslated strings.

--BDS
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Re: What's going on?

Cédric Corazza
In reply to this post by Axel Hecht
Le 04/08/2010 19:27, Axel Hecht a écrit :

> On 04.08.10 18:09, Toni Hermoso Pulido wrote:
>> Al 04/08/10 17:57, En/na Cédric Corazza ha escrit:
>>> Le 04/08/2010 17:38, Toni Hermoso Pulido a écrit :
>>>
>>>> One opinion/suggestion,
>>>>
>>>> in betas (at least first ones), in order to minimize the stress on
>>>> localizers but, at the same time, make their builds be part in these
>>>> preliminary releases, I think incomplete translations should be
>>>> accepted.
>>>> A threshold should be defined, let's say, up to 50-100 untranslated
>>>> strings…
>>>> My only concern would be that these untranslated strings did not end up
>>>> accidentally in stable releases. Good checking would be needed
>>>> before RCs.
>>>>
>>>> My 2 cents,
>>>
>>> If we have no other solution than the current one in terms of timing, it
>>> would be nice to write a warning in the beta download page about
>>> possible strings not localized.
>>
>> +1
>> I think users can accept the existence of a few untranslated strings in
>> first beta versions. Even, if they complain about untranslated strings
>> through the feedback system, this may not be so negative in the end,
>> because accidentally this could encourage them to provide other kind of
>> non-l10n feedback as well and get involved in the very translation
>> community.
>>
>> Just some thoughts,
>
> Would "Known Issues" on the release notes be good enough?
>
> Axel

Yes, Known Issues would be a good option for the beta download page,
indicating something like: "Our localizers haven't yet thouroughly
tested the beta and some untranslated strings might appear in the interface.
If so, this will be fixed in next release..."
This along with the 24-hour window for localizers suggested by Kadir
would be a good compromise.

Cédric
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Re: What's going on?

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by Benjamin Smedberg
On 04.08.10 19:37, Benjamin Smedberg wrote:
> On 8/4/10 1:29 PM, Axel Hecht wrote:
>
>> Yes, I expect at least the last beta to be 0 non-localized strings only.
>
> Why can't this wait until release candidates? It sounds like we're
> artificially shortening the timeframe for translations by two weeks.
> Last beta is after string freeze, but I don't know why we can't allow a
> few untranslated strings.
>

Looking at the beta schedule, we're having two betas after string
freeze, so we'd have one beta with l10n-merge and one without.

But yeah, it's still a call we can make when we get there.

Axel
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Re: What's going on?

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by Cédric Corazza
On 04.08.10 20:01, Cédric Corazza wrote:

> Le 04/08/2010 19:27, Axel Hecht a écrit :
>> On 04.08.10 18:09, Toni Hermoso Pulido wrote:
>>> Al 04/08/10 17:57, En/na Cédric Corazza ha escrit:
>>>> Le 04/08/2010 17:38, Toni Hermoso Pulido a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>> One opinion/suggestion,
>>>>>
>>>>> in betas (at least first ones), in order to minimize the stress on
>>>>> localizers but, at the same time, make their builds be part in these
>>>>> preliminary releases, I think incomplete translations should be
>>>>> accepted.
>>>>> A threshold should be defined, let's say, up to 50-100 untranslated
>>>>> strings…
>>>>> My only concern would be that these untranslated strings did not end up
>>>>> accidentally in stable releases. Good checking would be needed
>>>>> before RCs.
>>>>>
>>>>> My 2 cents,
>>>>
>>>> If we have no other solution than the current one in terms of timing, it
>>>> would be nice to write a warning in the beta download page about
>>>> possible strings not localized.
>>>
>>> +1
>>> I think users can accept the existence of a few untranslated strings in
>>> first beta versions. Even, if they complain about untranslated strings
>>> through the feedback system, this may not be so negative in the end,
>>> because accidentally this could encourage them to provide other kind of
>>> non-l10n feedback as well and get involved in the very translation
>>> community.
>>>
>>> Just some thoughts,
>>
>> Would "Known Issues" on the release notes be good enough?
>>
>> Axel
>
> Yes, Known Issues would be a good option for the beta download page,
> indicating something like: "Our localizers haven't yet thouroughly
> tested the beta and some untranslated strings might appear in the interface.
> If so, this will be fixed in next release..."
> This along with the 24-hour window for localizers suggested by Kadir
> would be a good compromise.


I just filed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=584444 on the
relnote piece.

Axel
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Re: What's going on?

Cédric Corazza
In reply to this post by Mike Beltzner
Hi,

Thanks Mike for these clarifications.
Just to be clear about my post, as I might have offended someone by not
choosing the right words to express my thoughts (I should definitely
attend to English improvement course):
I was pointing out a current issue for localizers, due to the rush
before release (as usual :-) ), where everyone (contributors and
employees) is focussing on its own area to get things done timely, and
may be a little upset when something doesn't go smoothly as usual.
I titillate (this is almost the same term in French) a bit to get a
little attention about this issue, and well, attention I got!
I state this again, as I did in the past, and still think: Mozilla
(l10n, RelEng, IT, Mozilla Europe,...) and also contributors made huge
improvements for l10n over the years, with tools, facilities, hiring
people, and still continue to enhance the process.
My post wasn't an attack, far from this.
The issue is on its way to be solved, so everything is going to purr
again in Mozilla land.
Thanks to everyone who participated in this thread.

Regards

Cédric
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Re: What's going on?

Cédric Corazza
Le 04/08/2010 22:07, Cédric Corazza a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> Thanks Mike for these clarifications.
> Just to be clear about my post, as I might have offended someone by not
> choosing the right words to express my thoughts (I should definitely
> attend to English improvement course):
> I was pointing out a current issue for localizers, due to the rush
> before release (as usual :-) ), where everyone (contributors and
> employees) is focussing on its own area to get things done timely, and
> may be a little upset when something doesn't go smoothly as usual.
> I titillate (this is almost the same term in French) a bit to get a
> little attention about this issue, and well, attention I got!
> I state this again, as I did in the past, and still think: Mozilla
> (l10n, RelEng, IT, Mozilla Europe,...) and also contributors made huge
> improvements for l10n over the years, with tools, facilities, hiring
> people, and still continue to enhance the process.
> My post wasn't an attack, far from this.
> The issue is on its way to be solved, so everything is going to purr
> again in Mozilla land.
> Thanks to everyone who participated in this thread.
>
> Regards
>
> Cédric
argh, this missed from my copy-paste:
And I've never seen another project (FOSS or proprietary) putting so
many resources and attention to l10n process.

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Re: What's going on?

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by Cédric Corazza
Hi all,

I've been in the delivery meeting "tonight", and the takeaways that
beltzner had from B3 are even stronger than what he has in his post
here. He's putting pressure on "features" to be really landing on
nightlies before code freeze, and to have some sort of string freeze on
Fridays. (I'd personally not pick on single strings for the latter.)
Also, thingies as big as sync should not only land a few days before,
but early in the two week cycle. Beltzner did regret that he didn't drop
the plan to get sync into B3 on Friday.

Axel
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