What does bugzilla.mozilla.org actually do for you?

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What does bugzilla.mozilla.org actually do for you?

timeless-3
this btw highlights a bigger problem.

Bugzilla has lots of features about which many of our long time users
are entirely unaware.

Jesse/I have at times pondered giving tutorials about how to use Bugzilla.

Making changes to Bugzilla is fun, but we've already made many many
changes to bugzilla, and most people haven't noticed.

I'm not saying that bugzilla's UI is perfect, or that it can't be improved.

And certainly providing an AJAX version of completion would probably
help some people.

But before you guys all jump in and shred it, perhaps we could come up
with a list of actual problems and determine if they're solvable
without dismantling the current ui and rebuilding it.

So, how about a quick (ok, it isn't really quick) survey:

1. Please describe exactly how you file a bug (please indicate pages
you visit with URLs as well as Page or Heading Titles) (please
indicate steps you take before filing, do you search? how)
2. Please describe exactly how you triage a bug (please indicate what
you're trying to find beyond simply what you've done, but what you're
looking for as you do it)
3. Please indicate which parts of preferences you've visited (yes,
please feel free to say you've never visited preferences, and also
feel free to respond that you don't remember seeing the other pages)
4. Have you ever made a request? if so, how, for which purpose, why, etc.
5. Have you ever managed a request? if so, how,...
6. Have you ever tried to review requests? if so, how,...
7. Which kinds of user agents do you use with Bugzilla? (Firefox,
Safari, IE, Thunderbird, any java agents? any rss agents? excel?
iCal?)
8. Did you know that Excel can be used with Bugzilla?
9. Have you ever wanted to view someone else's search results? did you
know it's possible?
10. Have you ever wanted to share a search with someone else? did you
know it's possible?
11. Have you ever voted? if so, why?
12. Have you ever asked for help? how? where?
13. Have you looked for help on your own? which did you find?
14. How many ways do you know of to search bugzilla? how many do you
understand? how many do you like?
15. Have you ever used charts? which, why, how?
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Re: What does bugzilla.mozilla.org actually do for you?

Simon Bünzli
Is this really the best way to do such a survey? And wouldn't peeking
over the shoulders of people using b.m.o resp. collecting loads of
metrics be more effective than reading through the answers of those few
who bother (even with "few" being a few dozen, it'll still be a
non-representative sample) and try to make sense of them?

Nonetheless, in case it helps:

timeless schrieb am 14.06.09 22:47:
> 1. Please describe exactly how you file a bug

* Use a keyworded QuickSearch bookmark to see if the bug's already been
filed -> <a href="https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=%s">https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=%s
* Click "new" -> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi (log in if
needed)
* Select the appropriate product from the long list (scroll if it's a
Toolkit bug, use find-as-you-type to find anything not Firefox or Core)
-> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Firefox
* Select the appropriate component (directly in Firefox and Toolkit,
going through possible candidates and reading their mini-descriptions
for most other products) and version, reset Platform and OS to their
defaults (over 99% of my bugs aren't platform specific), fill in
summary, description and URL, occasionally also keywords, CC and
dependencies and a blocking flag (mostly for regressions).

> 2. Please describe exactly how you triage a bug

QuickSearch for what I consider relevant words (resp. their stems) to
find DUPEs and - if it isn't - either ask the reporter for further
information or set the appropriate keywords (qawanted, helpwanted,
regression, etc.) and occasionally bother to correct version, platform
(only if I make other changes anyway).

> 3. Please indicate which parts of preferences you've visited (yes,
> please feel free to say you've never visited preferences, and also
> feel free to respond that you don't remember seeing the other pages)

Most of them: I've got three non-standard general prefs, pretty much
reconfigured e-mail prefs, set up a watch list, maintain one or two
saved searches and occasionally change my display name to add a status bit.

I've never seen flags before and don't get the value of a separate
permissions tab, though.

> 4. Have you ever made a request? if so, how, for which purpose, why, etc.
> 5. Have you ever managed a request? if so, how,...
> 6. Have you ever tried to review requests? if so, how,...

Like setting code review?, ui-review?, etc. when that's what's needed,
updated the requests for new patches, done code review, etc.? Are there
different ways of doing these?

> 7. Which kinds of user agents do you use with Bugzilla?

Firefox for browsing and Thunderbird for being notified.

> 8. Did you know that Excel can be used with Bugzilla?

No. What for?

> 9. Have you ever wanted to view someone else's search results? did you
> know it's possible?

No and yes (unless you don't mean search sharing).

> 10. Have you ever wanted to share a search with someone else? did you
> know it's possible?

No and yes (that overlong list makes it annoyingly difficult to manage
my own saved searches as the only commit button is at the bottom of the
list).

> 11. Have you ever voted? if so, why?

Used to - for keeping track of a bug without sending a dozen CC mails.

> 12. Have you ever asked for help? how? where?

By setting the helpwanted keyword and occasionally CCing people who
might be able to help. Or wasn't that the question?

> 13. Have you looked for help on your own? which did you find?

?

> 14. How many ways do you know of to search bugzilla? how many do you
> understand? how many do you like?

QuickSearch, the seemingly pointless simple search form (can't this one
be disabled or made non-default?) and the overly complex advanced search
form. I by far prefer QuickSearch and fall back to the advanced search
form for things not (yet) possible through QuickSearch (like searching
for bugs modified within the last week or bugs with a specific commenter).

> 15. Have you ever used charts? which, why, how?

Boolean search charts? Sure - mostly for searching for flags (which is
also possible through QuickSearch) and for excluding bugs which I'm
already tracking.

Cheers,
Simon
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Re: What does bugzilla.mozilla.org actually do for you?

Michael Kohler
On 06/15/2009 12:27 AM, Simon Bünzli wrote:
> Is this really the best way to do such a survey? And wouldn't peeking
> over the shoulders of people using b.m.o resp. collecting loads of
> metrics be more effective than reading through the answers of those few
> who bother (even with "few" being a few dozen, it'll still be a
> non-representative sample) and try to make sense of them?
>

I agree with Simon Bünzli. I think a online survey would be better.

>> 8. Did you know that Excel can be used with Bugzilla?
>
> No. What for?

You can download a CSV file. Click on the CSV button on the search
results page on b.m.o. Although as far as I can see there is no obvious
reason to have the search list in Excel. I don't think there are many
people who use this feature.
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Re: What does bugzilla.mozilla.org actually do for you?

timeless-3
In reply to this post by Simon Bünzli
2009/6/15 Simon Bünzli <[hidden email]>:
> Is this really the best way to do such a survey?

probably not :)

> And wouldn't peeking over
> the shoulders of people using b.m.o resp. collecting loads of metrics be
> more effective than reading through the answers of those few who bother

probably, although I'm not sure people would really read the results.
I'd have to ask if it's possible and spend time trying to decant the
results.

>> 1. Please describe exactly how you file a bug
>
> * Use a keyworded QuickSearch bookmark to see if the bug's already been
> filed -> <a href="https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=%s">https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=%s
> * Click "new" -> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi (log in if
> needed)
> * Select the appropriate product from the long list (scroll if it's a
> Toolkit bug, use find-as-you-type to find anything not Firefox or Core) ->
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Firefox

Note to self: you've turned off the fancy product chooser for expediency.
for everyone else, this is:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/userprefs.cgi
Product chooser to use when entering bugs "Full chooser with all products"

> * Select the appropriate component (directly in Firefox and Toolkit, going
> through possible candidates and reading their mini-descriptions for most
> other products)

So you're taking advantage of the javascript on enter_bug.
Would it be easier if you could see a larger list, search through the
descriptions and click on the description you want to get the
component you need?

An example of such a list is here:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/describecomponents.cgi?product=Toolkit

> and version, reset Platform and OS to their defaults (over
> 99% of my bugs aren't platform specific), fill in summary, description and
> URL, occasionally also keywords, CC and dependencies and a blocking flag
> (mostly for regressions).
>
>> 2. Please describe exactly how you triage a bug
>
> QuickSearch for what I consider relevant words (resp. their stems) to find
> DUPEs and - if it isn't - either ask the reporter for further information or
> set the appropriate keywords (qawanted, helpwanted, regression, etc.) and
> occasionally bother to correct version, platform (only if I make other
> changes anyway).
>
>> 3. Please indicate which parts of preferences you've visited (yes,
>> please feel free to say you've never visited preferences, and also
>> feel free to respond that you don't remember seeing the other pages)
>
> Most of them: I've got three non-standard general prefs, pretty much
> reconfigured e-mail prefs, set up a watch list, maintain one or two saved
> searches and occasionally change my display name to add a status bit.
>
> I've never seen flags before and don't get the value of a separate
> permissions tab, though.

Someone else will explain, I think the right thing to do was to
default to all of them being "off" for everyone, and then do a search
through bugzilla archives and turn on any bit for any person who set a
given flag. Followed by explaining to people how to opt into flags.

>> 4. Have you ever made a request? if so, how, for which purpose, why, etc.
>> 5. Have you ever managed a request? if so, how,...
>> 6. Have you ever tried to review requests? if so, how,...
>
> Like setting code review?, ui-review?, etc. when that's what's needed,
> updated the requests for new patches, done code review, etc.? Are there
> different ways of doing these?

there's: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/requests.cgi

>> 7. Which kinds of user agents do you use with Bugzilla?
>
> Firefox for browsing and Thunderbird for being notified.
>
>> 8. Did you know that Excel can be used with Bugzilla?
>
> No. What for?

Management types or better sorting.

>> 9. Have you ever wanted to view someone else's search results? did you
>> know it's possible?
>
> No and yes (unless you don't mean search sharing).
>
>> 10. Have you ever wanted to share a search with someone else? did you
>> know it's possible?
>
> No and yes (that overlong list makes it annoyingly difficult to manage my
> own saved searches as the only commit button is at the bottom of the list).

Please file a bug :)

>> 11. Have you ever voted? if so, why?
>
> Used to - for keeping track of a bug without sending a dozen CC mails.
>
>> 12. Have you ever asked for help? how? where?
>
> By setting the helpwanted keyword and occasionally CCing people who might be
> able to help. Or wasn't that the question?

using bugzilla itself :), so no :)

>> 13. Have you looked for help on your own? which did you find?

>> 14. How many ways do you know of to search bugzilla? how many do you
>> understand? how many do you like?
>
> QuickSearch, the seemingly pointless simple search form (can't this one be
> disabled or made non-default?) and the overly complex advanced search form.
> I by far prefer QuickSearch and fall back to the advanced search form for
> things not (yet) possible through QuickSearch (like searching for bugs
> modified within the last week or bugs with a specific commenter).

there are a few others :)

>> 15. Have you ever used charts? which, why, how?
>
> Boolean search charts? Sure - mostly for searching for flags (which is also
> possible through QuickSearch) and for excluding bugs which I'm already
> tracking.

the other charts :)
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/report.cgi
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Re: What does bugzilla.mozilla.org actually do for you?

Kevin Brosnan
In reply to this post by timeless-3
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 16:47, timeless<[hidden email]> wrote:

> this btw highlights a bigger problem.
>
> Bugzilla has lots of features about which many of our long time users
> are entirely unaware.
>
> Jesse/I have at times pondered giving tutorials about how to use Bugzilla.
>
> Making changes to Bugzilla is fun, but we've already made many many
> changes to bugzilla, and most people haven't noticed.
>
> I'm not saying that bugzilla's UI is perfect, or that it can't be improved.
>
> And certainly providing an AJAX version of completion would probably
> help some people.
>
> But before you guys all jump in and shred it, perhaps we could come up
> with a list of actual problems and determine if they're solvable
> without dismantling the current ui and rebuilding it.
>
> So, how about a quick (ok, it isn't really quick) survey:
>
> 1. Please describe exactly how you file a bug (please indicate pages
> you visit with URLs as well as Page or Heading Titles) (please
> indicate steps you take before filing, do you search? how)

search for bugs
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/query.cgi?format=advanced
Product: try to narrow the search with this
Component: only if I'm sure it can be narrowed to this
Resolution: Invalid/Wontfix/---
Only bugs changed between: if i know a regression range

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi - full chooser with all products
Check the default fields
Provide as much detail as possible while still having a compact and
digestible bug comment.
CC people who might be useful in advancing the bug

> 2. Please describe exactly how you triage a bug (please indicate what
> you're trying to find beyond simply what you've done, but what you're
> looking for as you do it)

Chunk the summary to key words perform a query on the key words from the summary
My default search is https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/query.cgi?format=advanced
Product: Core/Firefox/Toolkit
Resolution: Invalid/Wontfix/Duplicate/---
Occasionally use the OS, url or date range to narrow the search
Rarely use the 'Email Addresses, Bug Numbers, and Votes' or Comment fields
Everything else is even more rarely used

If the search does not turn up anything useful re-search using more
general terms or  synonyms of the key words.

> 3. Please indicate which parts of preferences you've visited (yes,
> please feel free to say you've never visited preferences, and also
> feel free to respond that you don't remember seeing the other pages)

I've used elements on all the preference pages except for Flags and Permissions

> 4. Have you ever made a request? if so, how, for which purpose, why, etc.
Yes, blocking bugs and a couple reviews.

> 5. Have you ever managed a request? if so, how,...
no

> 6. Have you ever tried to review requests? if so, how,...
no

> 7. Which kinds of user agents do you use with Bugzilla? (Firefox,
> Safari, IE, Thunderbird, any java agents? any rss agents? excel?
> iCal?)

Nearly always a Gecko desktop browser

> 8. Did you know that Excel can be used with Bugzilla?
Vaguely

> 9. Have you ever wanted to view someone else's search results? did you
> know it's possible?
Yes, yes (hint it is in the prefs)

> 10. Have you ever wanted to share a search with someone else? did you
> know it's possible?

Yes, yes see above

> 11. Have you ever voted? if so, why?
No. In all my years being around the Mozilla project I can't recall a
developer ever saying bug x has y votes we should fix it. If I care
about a bug I'll cc myself.

> 12. Have you ever asked for help? how? where?
Assuming this is have you ever asked for help using bugzilla
Learned a bit from bugdays, scavenging interesting queries, lurking
and trial and error

> 13. Have you looked for help on your own? which did you find?
Not so much recently but I tend to point people at various pages at
developer.mozilla.org or quality.mozilla.org ex.
https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Bug_writing_guidelines or
http://quality.mozilla.org/documents-home/bugs-docs/bug-writing-guidelines

> 14. How many ways do you know of to search bugzilla? how many do you
> understand? how many do you like?

Basic/advanced search forms
find (header/footer)
bookmark keyword search
sidebar search
search engine addon
Various APIs for querying from programs or scripts. e.g. irc bots

I have a basic understanding of most but the APIs
Though I only use the advanced search and a bookmark keyword search
<a href="https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=%s">https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=%s which I only
use for looking up bugs by number.

> 15. Have you ever used charts? which, why, how?
Once I think to estimate bugs filed a day for Gerv's bugzilla contest
a couple years ago.

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Re: What does bugzilla.mozilla.org actually do for you?

timeless-3
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 9:09 AM, Kevin Brosnan<[hidden email]> wrote:

>> 12. Have you ever asked for help? how? where?
> Assuming this is have you ever asked for help using bugzilla
> Learned a bit from bugdays, scavenging interesting queries, lurking
> and trial and error
>
>> 13. Have you looked for help on your own? which did you find?
> Not so much recently but I tend to point people at various pages at
> developer.mozilla.org or quality.mozilla.org ex.
> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Bug_writing_guidelines or
> http://quality.mozilla.org/documents-home/bugs-docs/bug-writing-guidelines

so, among the things i was wondering (but fairly certain people hadn't
found) was:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/query.cgi?help=1
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/page.cgi?id=quicksearchhack.html
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Re: What does bugzilla.mozilla.org actually do for you?

Simon Bünzli
In reply to this post by Simon Bünzli
timeless schrieb am 15.06.09 07:31:
> probably, although I'm not sure people would really read the results.

Gerv would, I'm sure, and that'd be what matters here.

> Note to self: you've turned off the fancy product chooser for expediency.

Yeah, because the pretty chooser doesn't bother showing Toolkit, Core
and (ironically) Bugzilla - and I still have to scroll to see
everything. At least it's got icons, right? (16x16 icons would surely
look nice in the advanced chooser as well.)

> Would it be easier if you could see a larger list, search through the
> descriptions and click on the description you want to get the
> component you need?

Only in the case where I don't immediately see where to file (which now
is only a minority of cases). Otherwise such a list seems quite
overwhelming.

>>> 5. Have you ever managed a request? if so, how,...

Now that you mention it: Doing code review inside an attachment's detail
view - i.e. edit attachment as comment - gets annoying by how narrow the
textarea is (especially when a review? flag is still set). I always copy
the whole thing into my favorite editor, review there and then copy
things back. And the textarea for just adding a comment to an attachment
is even smaller... Is there a better way for doing these?

> there's: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/requests.cgi

For getting an overview of how many (of my) requests others have still
got open, sure. Not as much for managing my own, that's what my inbox is
for.

> Management types or better sorting.

Bug list sorting has proven to be good enough (if only it'd stick - is
there really no way of having Bugzilla default to sorting newest first?).

> Please file a bug :)

Bug 498289.

> using bugzilla itself :), so no :)
>
>>> 13. Have you looked for help on your own? which did you find?

Never asked for any. Searched for a QuickSearch overview
(https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/page.cgi?id=quicksearch.htm; which I had
to use Google for - why isn't there a smallish "?" help link right
besides the feature?) and read Jesse's and Frédéric's blog posts.

The only way I see to get to
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/page.cgi?id=quicksearchhack.html is by
searching for an invalid field (e.g. x:x) and then clicking the link to
get information Bugzilla doesn't bother showing me right away. (Right,
there's a tiny link at the top of quicksearch.htm.)

> there are a few others :)

There are? Anything I might find useful?

> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/report.cgi

Right, I've heard of them once, I guess...

Cheers,
Simon
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Re: What does bugzilla.mozilla.org actually do for you?

timeless-3
2009/6/15 Simon Bünzli <[hidden email]>:
> Yeah, because the pretty chooser doesn't bother showing Toolkit, Core and
> (ironically) Bugzilla - and I still have to scroll to see everything. At
> least it's got icons, right? (16x16 icons would surely look nice in the
> advanced chooser as well.)

the advanced chooser comes from upstream. that upstream doesn't
support icons is an upstream bug (i sure hope it's filed)

> Now that you mention it: Doing code review inside an attachment's detail
> view - i.e. edit attachment as comment - gets annoying by how narrow the
> textarea is (especially when a review? flag is still set). I always copy the
> whole thing into my favorite editor, review there and then copy things back.
> And the textarea for just adding a comment to an attachment is even
> smaller... Is there a better way for doing these?

use a browser that lets you stretch the fields :)
(file a bug?)

> Bug list sorting has proven to be good enough (if only it'd stick - is there
> really no way of having Bugzilla default to sorting newest first?).

probably not, find/file a bug?

> Never asked for any. Searched for a QuickSearch overview
> (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/page.cgi?id=quicksearch.htm; which I had to
> use Google for - why isn't there a smallish "?" help link right besides the
> feature?) and read Jesse's and Frédéric's blog posts.

> The only way I see to get to
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/page.cgi?id=quicksearchhack.html is by
> searching for an invalid field (e.g. x:x) and then clicking the link to get
> information Bugzilla doesn't bother showing me right away. (Right, there's a
> tiny link at the top of quicksearch.htm.)

ironically, it's here:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/

Find a bug: [THIS IS NOT A QUICK SEARCH FIELD] (find)    [Help]

The help link there is to quicksearch help

>> there are a few others :)
> There are? Anything I might find useful?

I'm trying to get other people to comment on this area. I'll probably
answer my own questions for myself later.
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Re: What does bugzilla.mozilla.org actually do for you?

Sebastian Hengst
In reply to this post by timeless-3
> 1. Please describe exactly how you file a bug (please indicate pages
> you visit with URLs as well as Page or Heading Titles) (please
> indicate steps you take before filing, do you search? how)
i) Go to the advanced search page (by typing keyword "b")
ii) Choose product(s) and component(s)
iii) perform some searches with different terms which could be used in
the bug title (or sometimes a bug comment)
iv) If it wasn't necessary for searching, I now try to gather more infos
about the bug and file it.
> 2. Please describe exactly how you triage a bug (please indicate what
> you're trying to find beyond simply what you've done, but what you're
> looking for as you do it)
i) Search for duplicates like in 1.
ii) If they exist, dupe and tell to reopen and provide information if
they think that is something different.
iii) If there are no dupes, try to reproduce. If there is no success,
ask for further information (I use no CLOSEME in the whiteboard).
> 3. Please indicate which parts of preferences you've visited (yes,
> please feel free to say you've never visited preferences, and also
> feel free to respond that you don't remember seeing the other pages)
All, but I only nowadays use the email preferences for changing watching
of components.
> 4. Have you ever made a request? if so, how, for which purpose, why, etc.
Request for patch review or translation review.
> 5. Have you ever managed a request? if so, how,...
Yes, translation review. I replied inline and commented.
> 6. Have you ever tried to review requests? if so, how,...
See 5.
> 7. Which kinds of user agents do you use with Bugzilla? (Firefox,
> Safari, IE, Thunderbird, any java agents? any rss agents? excel?
> iCal?)
Firefox, Thunderbird (Bugmail extension, reading bugs with
ThunderBrowse, subscribed to some bug queries by RSS because there is
only one global setting for watching components).
> 8. Did you know that Excel can be used with Bugzilla?
No.
> 9. Have you ever wanted to view someone else's search results? did you
> know it's possible?
No, no.
> 10. Have you ever wanted to share a search with someone else? did you
> know it's possible?
No, yes.
> 11. Have you ever voted? if so, why?
Yes, because I only get mail for status changes of voted bugs (so I am
passive on these).
> 12. Have you ever asked for help? how? where?
Yes, on testdays in the responsible channels.
> 13. Have you looked for help on your own? which did you find?
Not really, got some links when I got canconfirm and editbugs flags.
> 14. How many ways do you know of to search bugzilla? how many do you
> understand? how many do you like?
I only use the advanced search, nearly always with product and component
limitation, sometimes with age restriction, rarely searching for a
reporter or cc.
> 15. Have you ever used charts? which, why, how?
Only for the bugzilla sweepstake.
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Re: What does bugzilla.mozilla.org actually do for you?

Mark Banner-2
In reply to this post by timeless-3
On 14/06/2009 21:47, timeless wrote:
> Bugzilla has lots of features about which many of our long time users
> are entirely unaware.

I think the question here is, is there any documentation on how to get
to them except via looking through the source? Is there a short-list
anywhere?

> 1. Please describe exactly how you file a bug (please indicate pages
> you visit with URLs as well as Page or Heading Titles) (please
> indicate steps you take before filing, do you search? how)

See 2. for search before filing. For bugs I just use enter_bug.cgi. I do
now have a couple of bookmarks to go straight to product variants. The
biggest issues I have with that page:

a) as a developer I can't set the status-whiteboard, I have to do that
later. I probably want to do this most in my driver-bug-filing mode
which is occasional.
b) no autocomplete on the keywords search (thankfully I know most of the
ones I use when filing a bug).

> 2. Please describe exactly how you triage a bug (please indicate what
> you're trying to find beyond simply what you've done, but what you're
> looking for as you do it)

This varies a lot depending on what I'm doing. If I'm looking for dupes,
then I'll usually do a search for a couple of words in the summary and
filter down from there as necessary, though frequently I end up looking
through long lists. The main issue here is different ways people have of
describing things e.g. "mail list", "mailing list", "group", "list".

> 3. Please indicate which parts of preferences you've visited (yes,
> please feel free to say you've never visited preferences, and also
> feel free to respond that you don't remember seeing the other pages)

All of them. The permissions page could do with improvement. a) I have
no idea of all the possibilities for permissions (and who would have
them), b) I have no idea how to request ones I don't have.

> 4. Have you ever made a request? if so, how, for which purpose, why, etc.

Lots! approval, requests etc. The hardest thing is knowing who. Bugzilla
gives no hints from its request page, so go to the product/area review
pages, then maybe the module owner page, then fallback to mxr.

Note: comm-central devmo page now has a list of the review pages
relevant to comm-central
(https://developer.mozilla.org/en/comm-central#comm-central_tree_rules),
maybe someone could do something similar for the mozilla-central page?

> 5. Have you ever managed a request? if so, how,...

Yes, but not quite sure what you're asking here.

> 6. Have you ever tried to review requests? if so, how,...

ditto

> 7. Which kinds of user agents do you use with Bugzilla? (Firefox,
> Safari, IE, Thunderbird, any java agents? any rss agents? excel?
> iCal?)

Firefox. I sometimes use TB with rss to help track bug nominations for
blocking.

> 8. Did you know that Excel can be used with Bugzilla?

Given I knew about cvs export, then yes. OpenOffice.org spreadsheet can
also be used ;-)

> 9. Have you ever wanted to view someone else's search results? did you
> know it's possible?

Yes and yes. Biggest issue is that for the sharer to give someone a
link, they have to append their sharer_id onto the end of the link, but
there's no-way of finding that out.

> 10. Have you ever wanted to share a search with someone else? did you
> know it's possible?

Yes and Yes. However you can't globally share searches (or with
not-logged in people). So for instance, we can't create a
blocking-thunderbird3+ shared search and have *anyone* access it.

> 11. Have you ever voted? if so, why?

Possibly, ages ago.

> 12. Have you ever asked for help? how? where?
> 13. Have you looked for help on your own? which did you find?

Not sure. I think generally I haven't needed it except in the early days
of working out what the fields were which you can get from the links on
the pages.

> 14. How many ways do you know of to search bugzilla? how many do you
> understand? how many do you like?

Quick, Advanced, Specific.

Quick search just brings up too many bugs and isn't product focused.

Specific I don't use, because advanced generally copes with everything.

Advanced is the most useful to me and is what I typically use.

> 15. Have you ever used charts? which, why, how?

Yes. Old charts are by far easiest, we've used these to monitor how
we're doing on open bugs etc e.g.
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/reports.cgi?product=Thunderbird&datasets=NEW%3A&datasets=ASSIGNED%3A&datasets=REOPENED%3A&datasets=UNCONFIRMED%3A&datasets=FIXED%3A

New charts I found very difficult. I wanted to monitor in-testsuite+ for
Thunderbird and Mailnews Core. First you have to understand that the
data sets are generated every so often. Then you have to ponder why you
can't see all the sub-categories (Select MailNews Core for instance,
today 4 categories listed, under search, 26 categories).

Then you created a data set and you got it wrong - no way to edit or
delete (afaict) except by filing bug (where?).

In my in-testsuite+ case, I had to create two datasets, one for
Thunderbird one for MailNews Core (rather than one and apply it to
both). I think I must have created these a day apart (or changed
something on the second day), because the results are a day apart, and
again, no edit, and I haven't been bothered to file a bug about it, so
they remain one day apart at the moment, which confuses the total:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/chart.cgi?category=-All-&subcategory=-All-&name=1183&label0=Thunderbird+in-testsuite%2B&line0=1764&label1=MailNews+Core+in-testsuite%2B&line1=1765&gt=1&labelgt=Grand+Total&datefrom=2009-03-18&dateto=&action-wrap=Chart+This+List


Standard8
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Re: What does bugzilla.mozilla.org actually do for you?

Jean-Marc Desperrier
In reply to this post by timeless-3
timeless wrote:
> 11. Have you ever voted? if so, why?

I second what has already been said about that.

I use votes often, but really it's in order to *star* bugs, and AFAIC it
could just be renamed "star" or "follow" in the GUI, with little need
for changing anything else in the way it works, except removing the
number limits and making it a one-click option.
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Re: What does bugzilla.mozilla.org actually do for you?

armenzg
In reply to this post by timeless-3
> 1. Please describe exactly how you file a bug (please indicate pages
> you visit with URLs as well as Page or Heading Titles) (please
> indicate steps you take before filing, do you search? how)
I start typing "Enter a bug" since I know it is the title for this URL
(https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=mozilla.org). Most
of my bugs are Rel Eng related
> 2. Please describe exactly how you triage a bug (please indicate what
> you're trying to find beyond simply what you've done, but what you're
> looking for as you do it)
Check from the query we have for NEW bugs filed for Rel Eng and
determine who should be assigned to and if we are going to deal with
it now or in the future. If to be dealt in the future, we change the
component to "Release Engineering: Future"
> 3. Please indicate which parts of preferences you've visited (yes,
> please feel free to say you've never visited preferences, and also
> feel free to respond that you don't remember seeing the other pages)
1) Changing the circumstances in which I get an email
2) To follow someone
3) To change my nickname - added between brackets my IRC nickname
after a colon -> [:armenzg]
4) Changed theme
5) Checked saved searches

> 4. Have you ever made a request? if so, how, for which purpose, why, etc.
Yes. Patch reviews.

> 5. Have you ever managed a request? if so, how,...
I don't what you mean.

> 6. Have you ever tried to review requests? if so, how,...
I have reviewed many patches by using the DIFF view

> 7. Which kinds of user agents do you use with Bugzilla? (Firefox,
> Safari, IE, Thunderbird, any java agents? any rss agents? excel?
> iCal?)
Just Firefox and Apple Mail

> 8. Did you know that Excel can be used with Bugzilla?
No

> 9. Have you ever wanted to view someone else's search results? did you
> know it's possible?
What do you mean? We have searches shared in our team but that is all
I am aware of

> 10. Have you ever wanted to share a search with someone else? did you
> know it's possible?
Yes, we have done it in our team

> 11. Have you ever voted? if so, why?
Yes, trying to get people's attention that I wanted a feature to be
added

> 12. Have you ever asked for help? how? where?
Maybe. On IRC.

> 13. Have you looked for help on your own? which did you find?
Not really

> 14. How many ways do you know of to search bugzilla? how many do you
> understand? how many do you like?
There are two search boxes and a search link on the main page. I don't
really search too much unless I want to revisit an old bug that I
can't find in my awesome bar.

> 15. Have you ever used charts? which, why, how?
I have used the tree of dependencies and specially the graph.
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Re: What does bugzilla.mozilla.org actually do for you?

David McRitchie-2
>> 11. Have you ever voted? if so, why?
> Yes, trying to get people's attention that I wanted a feature

best way of tracking what I'm interested in getting fixed.
Sometimes  I think a separate negative vote option might have prevented
a lot of bad stuff from happening with user interface and appearance,
but overall would do more harm than good.
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Re: What does bugzilla.mozilla.org actually do for you?

Mike Beltzner
In reply to this post by timeless-3
If the point of this survey is simply to tell people to go file bugs,  
I think it's pretty useless. I would suggest you collect the  
information and then report back to us in aggregate.

cheers,
mike

On 14-Jun-09, at 10:31 PM, timeless wrote:

> 2009/6/15 Simon Bünzli <[hidden email]>:
>> Is this really the best way to do such a survey?
>
> probably not :)
>
>> And wouldn't peeking over
>> the shoulders of people using b.m.o resp. collecting loads of  
>> metrics be
>> more effective than reading through the answers of those few who  
>> bother
>
> probably, although I'm not sure people would really read the results.
> I'd have to ask if it's possible and spend time trying to decant the
> results.
>
>>> 1. Please describe exactly how you file a bug
>>
>> * Use a keyworded QuickSearch bookmark to see if the bug's already  
>> been
>> filed -> <a href="https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=%s">https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=%s
>> * Click "new" -> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi (log in  
>> if
>> needed)
>> * Select the appropriate product from the long list (scroll if it's a
>> Toolkit bug, use find-as-you-type to find anything not Firefox or  
>> Core) ->
>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Firefox
>
> Note to self: you've turned off the fancy product chooser for  
> expediency.
> for everyone else, this is:
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/userprefs.cgi
> Product chooser to use when entering bugs "Full chooser with all  
> products"
>
>> * Select the appropriate component (directly in Firefox and  
>> Toolkit, going
>> through possible candidates and reading their mini-descriptions for  
>> most
>> other products)
>
> So you're taking advantage of the javascript on enter_bug.
> Would it be easier if you could see a larger list, search through the
> descriptions and click on the description you want to get the
> component you need?
>
> An example of such a list is here:
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/describecomponents.cgi?product=Toolkit
>
>> and version, reset Platform and OS to their defaults (over
>> 99% of my bugs aren't platform specific), fill in summary,  
>> description and
>> URL, occasionally also keywords, CC and dependencies and a blocking  
>> flag
>> (mostly for regressions).
>>
>>> 2. Please describe exactly how you triage a bug
>>
>> QuickSearch for what I consider relevant words (resp. their stems)  
>> to find
>> DUPEs and - if it isn't - either ask the reporter for further  
>> information or
>> set the appropriate keywords (qawanted, helpwanted, regression,  
>> etc.) and
>> occasionally bother to correct version, platform (only if I make  
>> other
>> changes anyway).
>>
>>> 3. Please indicate which parts of preferences you've visited (yes,
>>> please feel free to say you've never visited preferences, and also
>>> feel free to respond that you don't remember seeing the other pages)
>>
>> Most of them: I've got three non-standard general prefs, pretty much
>> reconfigured e-mail prefs, set up a watch list, maintain one or two  
>> saved
>> searches and occasionally change my display name to add a status bit.
>>
>> I've never seen flags before and don't get the value of a separate
>> permissions tab, though.
>
> Someone else will explain, I think the right thing to do was to
> default to all of them being "off" for everyone, and then do a search
> through bugzilla archives and turn on any bit for any person who set a
> given flag. Followed by explaining to people how to opt into flags.
>
>>> 4. Have you ever made a request? if so, how, for which purpose,  
>>> why, etc.
>>> 5. Have you ever managed a request? if so, how,...
>>> 6. Have you ever tried to review requests? if so, how,...
>>
>> Like setting code review?, ui-review?, etc. when that's what's  
>> needed,
>> updated the requests for new patches, done code review, etc.? Are  
>> there
>> different ways of doing these?
>
> there's: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/requests.cgi
>
>>> 7. Which kinds of user agents do you use with Bugzilla?
>>
>> Firefox for browsing and Thunderbird for being notified.
>>
>>> 8. Did you know that Excel can be used with Bugzilla?
>>
>> No. What for?
>
> Management types or better sorting.
>
>>> 9. Have you ever wanted to view someone else's search results? did  
>>> you
>>> know it's possible?
>>
>> No and yes (unless you don't mean search sharing).
>>
>>> 10. Have you ever wanted to share a search with someone else? did  
>>> you
>>> know it's possible?
>>
>> No and yes (that overlong list makes it annoyingly difficult to  
>> manage my
>> own saved searches as the only commit button is at the bottom of  
>> the list).
>
> Please file a bug :)
>
>>> 11. Have you ever voted? if so, why?
>>
>> Used to - for keeping track of a bug without sending a dozen CC  
>> mails.
>>
>>> 12. Have you ever asked for help? how? where?
>>
>> By setting the helpwanted keyword and occasionally CCing people who  
>> might be
>> able to help. Or wasn't that the question?
>
> using bugzilla itself :), so no :)
>
>>> 13. Have you looked for help on your own? which did you find?
>
>>> 14. How many ways do you know of to search bugzilla? how many do you
>>> understand? how many do you like?
>>
>> QuickSearch, the seemingly pointless simple search form (can't this  
>> one be
>> disabled or made non-default?) and the overly complex advanced  
>> search form.
>> I by far prefer QuickSearch and fall back to the advanced search  
>> form for
>> things not (yet) possible through QuickSearch (like searching for  
>> bugs
>> modified within the last week or bugs with a specific commenter).
>
> there are a few others :)
>
>>> 15. Have you ever used charts? which, why, how?
>>
>> Boolean search charts? Sure - mostly for searching for flags (which  
>> is also
>> possible through QuickSearch) and for excluding bugs which I'm  
>> already
>> tracking.
>
> the other charts :)
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/report.cgi
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Re: What does bugzilla.mozilla.org actually do for you?

Gervase Markham
In reply to this post by Mark Banner-2
On 15/06/09 10:18, Mark Banner wrote:
> I think the question here is, is there any documentation on how to get
> to them except via looking through the source? Is there a short-list
> anywhere?

A full list of Bugzilla features would be very long. Perhaps I should do
a "Bugzilla Tip of the Day" blog for a month or two?

> New charts I found very difficult. I wanted to monitor in-testsuite+ for
> Thunderbird and Mailnews Core. First you have to understand that the
> data sets are generated every so often. Then you have to ponder why you
> can't see all the sub-categories (Select MailNews Core for instance,
> today 4 categories listed, under search, 26 categories).

Yes; there isn't automatically a category created for each component,
because then you'd have a lot of empty categories, which might be
confusing in a different way.

> In my in-testsuite+ case, I had to create two datasets, one for
> Thunderbird one for MailNews Core (rather than one and apply it to
> both). I think I must have created these a day apart (or changed
> something on the second day),

Nope; if they have a period of N days, then Bugzilla runs the query at
<chart_id> % N, to prevent all the weekly ones being run on the same
day. Premature optimization on my part during implementation, I suspect
:-( I didn't think about the use case you mention.

Gerv
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Re: What does bugzilla.mozilla.org actually do for you?

Wayne Mery
In reply to this post by Mark Banner-2
On 6/15/2009 5:18 AM, Mark Banner wrote:

> On 14/06/2009 21:47, timeless wrote:
>> Bugzilla has lots of features about which many of our long time users
>> are entirely unaware.
>..
>> 15. Have you ever used charts? which, why, how?
>
> Yes. Old charts are by far easiest, we've used these to monitor how
> we're doing on open bugs etc e.g.
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/reports.cgi?product=Thunderbird&datasets=NEW%3A&datasets=ASSIGNED%3A&datasets=REOPENED%3A&datasets=UNCONFIRMED%3A&datasets=FIXED%3A
>
>
> New charts I found very difficult. I wanted to monitor in-testsuite+ for
> Thunderbird and Mailnews Core. First you have to understand that the
> data sets are generated every so often. Then you have to ponder why you
> can't see all the sub-categories (Select MailNews Core for instance,
> today 4 categories listed, under search, 26 categories).
>
> Then you created a data set and you got it wrong - no way to edit or
> delete (afaict) except by filing bug (where?).
>
> In my in-testsuite+ case, I had to create two datasets, one for
> Thunderbird one for MailNews Core (rather than one and apply it to
> both). I think I must have created these a day apart (or changed
> something on the second day), because the results are a day apart, and
> again, no edit, and I haven't been bothered to file a bug about it, so
> they remain one day apart at the moment, which confuses the total:
>
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/chart.cgi?category=-All-&subcategory=-All-&name=1183&label0=Thunderbird+in-testsuite%2B&line0=1764&label1=MailNews+Core+in-testsuite%2B&line1=1765&gt=1&labelgt=Grand+Total&datefrom=2009-03-18&dateto=&action-wrap=Chart+This+List
>
> Standard8

new charts is indeed arcane!
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Re: What does bugzilla.mozilla.org actually do for you?

Wayne Mery
In reply to this post by Kevin Brosnan
On 6/15/2009 3:52 AM, timeless wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 9:09 AM, Kevin Brosnan<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>> 12. Have you ever asked for help? how? where?
>> Assuming this is have you ever asked for help using bugzilla
>> Learned a bit from bugdays, scavenging interesting queries, lurking
>> and trial and error
>>
>>> 13. Have you looked for help on your own? which did you find?
>> Not so much recently but I tend to point people at various pages at
>> developer.mozilla.org or quality.mozilla.org ex.
>> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Bug_writing_guidelines or
>> http://quality.mozilla.org/documents-home/bugs-docs/bug-writing-guidelines
>
> so, among the things i was wondering (but fairly certain people hadn't
> found) was:
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/query.cgi?help=1
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/page.cgi?id=quicksearchhack.html

There is also Jesse's references at

  http://www.squarefree.com/bugzilla/quicksearch-help.html
  https://www.squarefree.com/bookmarklets/mozilla.html


3 search choices seems like too much. But if all 3 are needed, their
presentation needs to be reworked. Can rough usage stats be gotten about
how many people use https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/query.cgi?format=specific
compared to the other searches?
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