Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Aaron Leventhal-3
Bryan Garaventa wrote:
> I'm not familiar with ARIA, but was instead referring to the question
>
> Is there any common situation where text that should be delivered _only_
> to screen reader users?
>
> If ARIA can solve this, then more power to it. It is a real issue in
> standard web development however, which doesn't always have a definite
> right answer one way or the other, which is where policy decisions
> regarding what is chosen to be hidden vs visible come into play.

Bryan, ARIA has a way to do this with aria-labelledby pointing the id of
a hidden label, but Sri was asking for something that takes up fewer
bytes. The ultimate reason for this discussion is, do we want to add a
second shorter way to do this, like aria-name="string".

- Aaron

>
> Bryan
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Bryan Garaventa
> Senior Accessibility Engineer
> SSB + BART Group
> [hidden email]
> www.SSBBartGroup.com
> Accessibility-On-Demand
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Brunet" <[hidden email]>
> Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.accessibility
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 1:01 PM
> Subject: Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!
>
>
>> Believe it or not, not all phones have letters on them. I cannot make
>> these calls on my cell (a Treo) or via my VOIP program until I find a
>> regular phone to look up the mapping. In other words, the numerical
>> version is also valuable for sighted users.
>>
>> The other issues you mention, tabs, dialogs, etc, seem like semantic
>> information rather that actual information. I believe this semantic
>> information is what ARIA is trying to address. Ideally, none of this
>> should be a hard-coded string that the user hears. The markup indicates
>> the widget type, and the screen reader should describe the widget based
>> on the user's preferences, locale, etc.
>>
>> Bryan Garaventa wrote:
>>> Yes, there are practical uses for hidden text for screen reader users.
>>>
>>> We come across this issue a lot with our clients, especially when
>>> dealing with dynamic content driven web apps.
>>>
>>> This is often the case for visual components, such as simulated tab
>>> controls, inline menus, simulated dialogs, and various visually oriented
>>> web page components that are easy to understand when looking at them,
>>> but can be very unclear from a textual standpoint. This also comes into
>>> play regarding screen real estate, where many companies do not want an
>>> inordinate amount of textual information if a visual component will do
>>> the trick and save valuable space.
>>>
>>> As an example of this, on HP.com, near the logo, there is some text that
>>> tells users what number to call for additional service. This is "Buy
>>> online or Call 800-BUY-MYHP"
>>>
>>> Well, being blind myself, it is difficult for blind users to dial
>>> letters on telephones. We conveyed this to HP, but reasonably enough,
>>> they thought that adding a second numerical telephone number would be
>>> redundant information for sighted users. Instead, they added the
>>> following hidden text for screen reader users: "(800-289-6947)" Which
>>> appears directly after the first text string like so within a screen
>>> reader: "Buy online or Call 800-BUY-MYHP (800-289-6947)"
>>>
>>> Hidden text can be very valuable in many situations.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Bryan
>> _______________________________________________
>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>

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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Aaron Leventhal-3
In reply to this post by Tom Brunet
Another example of where ARIA wants to use a semantic is for the skip
links. Instead of a skip link, the idea is to mark role="main" on the
main content container.

- Aaron

Thomas Brunet wrote:

> Believe it or not, not all phones have letters on them.  I cannot make
> these calls on my cell (a Treo) or via my VOIP program until I find a
> regular phone to look up the mapping. In other words, the numerical
> version is also valuable for sighted users.
>
> The other issues you mention, tabs, dialogs, etc, seem like semantic
> information rather that actual information. I believe this semantic
> information is what ARIA is trying to address. Ideally, none of this
> should be a hard-coded string that the user hears. The markup indicates
> the widget type, and the screen reader should describe the widget based
> on the user's preferences, locale, etc.
>
> Bryan Garaventa wrote:
>> Yes, there are practical uses for hidden text for screen reader users.
>>
>> We come across this issue a lot with our clients, especially when
>> dealing with dynamic content driven web apps.
>>
>> This is often the case for visual components, such as simulated tab
>> controls, inline menus, simulated dialogs, and various visually
>> oriented web page components that are easy to understand when looking
>> at them, but can be very unclear from a textual standpoint. This also
>> comes into play regarding screen real estate, where many companies do
>> not want an inordinate amount of textual information if a visual
>> component will do the trick and save valuable space.
>>
>> As an example of this, on HP.com, near the logo, there is some text
>> that tells users what number to call for additional service. This is
>> "Buy online or Call 800-BUY-MYHP"
>>
>> Well, being blind myself, it is difficult for blind users to dial
>> letters on telephones. We conveyed this to HP, but reasonably enough,
>> they thought that adding a second numerical telephone number would be
>> redundant information for sighted users. Instead, they added the
>> following hidden text for screen reader users: "(800-289-6947)" Which
>> appears directly after the first text string like so within a screen
>> reader: "Buy online or Call 800-BUY-MYHP (800-289-6947)"
>>
>> Hidden text can be very valuable in many situations.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Bryan

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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Aaron Leventhal-3
In reply to this post by Tom Brunet
I do agree that using aria-labelledby with a hidden label is hacky. So
right there is a probably good reason to have aria-name. Using <label
for> with a hidden label also works now, at least in Firefox, to point
to an ARIA widget. It saves space but is also a hack.

The thing is, it would still be easier to argue for it if we could have
more realistic use cases. I really that that if a sighted user doesn't
have access to a visible label, that in almost all cases the screen
reader user doesn't need an additional label to be built. If there is an
image that needs to be described, that should be done with alt.

And in the case of the chat listbox, the idea is that ARIA 2.0 will
eventually address this by allowing for role extensibility. A new role
buddylist would be created that inherits from listbox, and that new role
would have a localized name. But instead of just having a meaningless
new name you have additional semantics for ATs to use for scripts. You
would also be able to create the buddy role with new properties such as
idle, away, etc.

- Aaron

Willie Walker wrote:

>  > Is there any common situation where text that should be delivered
> _only_ to screen reader users?
>
> It's not a common situation, but T.V. Raman and Charles Chen were
> showing me some of their experimental stuff at CSUN that was doing focus
> blurs and making 0-sized objects with names on them strictly for the
> purposes of fooling a screen reader into speaking something. The result
> was that a screen reader could be fooled into reading something, but I
> believe the interface ended up being inaccessible to keyboard-only users.
>
> Mind you, this was experimental. In Raman's words, he was peeing into
> the cesspool of hacks. I agreed. I think we'd rather try to solve
> problems rather than add to the list.
>
> Will
>
> Thomas Brunet wrote:
>>>> In fact that makes me ask, why do screen reader users even need a name
>>>> for something if sighted people don't have one?
>>
>> Given Rich's response, let me rephrase Aaron's question. If a name is
>> useful to screen reader users, why wouldn't it be useful to sighted
>> users?
>>
>> There are few things that I can justify as keeping hidden from sighted
>> users:
>> * Alt text: It is sometimes visible (if the image hasn't loaded /
>> broken link). In fact, I've found that a good way to see if alt text
>> is sensible is to disable images in Firefox.
>> * Skip links: I have seen arguments that skip links are equally
>> important to keyboard-only users, and therefore should be visible. One
>> technique that we use is to hide this text, but use CSS to show it
>> when it gains focus.
>>
>> Is there any common situation where text that should be delivered
>> _only_ to screen reader users?
>> _______________________________________________
>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>

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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

mozilla accessibility
In reply to this post by Srinivas Annam
Aaron wrote:
> The ultimate reason for this discussion is, do we want to add a second
> shorter way to do this, like aria-name="string".

In my humble opinion, yes. I believe there will always be a need for
screen-reader-only text. I'm sure there are (or will be) cases where aria
fails due to circumstances either out of the author's control (our budget
won't allow for adding aria site-wide so need quick fixes), or unforseen
situations in which aria doesn't work or doesn't provide enough info.

The problem I see with this approach is that if Firefox has something like
this and author's begin using it, then we have a situation where the
accessibility depends on nonstandard features of one particular browser. At
least with CSS positioning, we can move things off-screen in just about all
browsers which support CSS positioning and get the results we want.

My two cents...
-- Rich

"Aaron Leventhal" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:[hidden email]...

> Bryan Garaventa wrote:
>> I'm not familiar with ARIA, but was instead referring to the question
>>
>> Is there any common situation where text that should be delivered _only_
>> to screen reader users?
>>
>> If ARIA can solve this, then more power to it. It is a real issue in
>> standard web development however, which doesn't always have a definite
>> right answer one way or the other, which is where policy decisions
>> regarding what is chosen to be hidden vs visible come into play.
>
> Bryan, ARIA has a way to do this with aria-labelledby pointing the id of
> a hidden label, but Sri was asking for something that takes up fewer
> bytes. The ultimate reason for this discussion is, do we want to add a
> second shorter way to do this, like aria-name="string".
>
> - Aaron
>
>>
>> Bryan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Bryan Garaventa
>> Senior Accessibility Engineer
>> SSB + BART Group
>> [hidden email]
>> www.SSBBartGroup.com
>> Accessibility-On-Demand
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Brunet" <[hidden email]>
>> Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.accessibility
>> To: <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 1:01 PM
>> Subject: Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!
>>
>>
>>> Believe it or not, not all phones have letters on them. I cannot make
>>> these calls on my cell (a Treo) or via my VOIP program until I find a
>>> regular phone to look up the mapping. In other words, the numerical
>>> version is also valuable for sighted users.
>>>
>>> The other issues you mention, tabs, dialogs, etc, seem like semantic
>>> information rather that actual information. I believe this semantic
>>> information is what ARIA is trying to address. Ideally, none of this
>>> should be a hard-coded string that the user hears. The markup indicates
>>> the widget type, and the screen reader should describe the widget based
>>> on the user's preferences, locale, etc.
>>>
>>> Bryan Garaventa wrote:
>>>> Yes, there are practical uses for hidden text for screen reader users.
>>>>
>>>> We come across this issue a lot with our clients, especially when
>>>> dealing with dynamic content driven web apps.
>>>>
>>>> This is often the case for visual components, such as simulated tab
>>>> controls, inline menus, simulated dialogs, and various visually
>>>> oriented
>>>> web page components that are easy to understand when looking at them,
>>>> but can be very unclear from a textual standpoint. This also comes into
>>>> play regarding screen real estate, where many companies do not want an
>>>> inordinate amount of textual information if a visual component will do
>>>> the trick and save valuable space.
>>>>
>>>> As an example of this, on HP.com, near the logo, there is some text
>>>> that
>>>> tells users what number to call for additional service. This is "Buy
>>>> online or Call 800-BUY-MYHP"
>>>>
>>>> Well, being blind myself, it is difficult for blind users to dial
>>>> letters on telephones. We conveyed this to HP, but reasonably enough,
>>>> they thought that adding a second numerical telephone number would be
>>>> redundant information for sighted users. Instead, they added the
>>>> following hidden text for screen reader users: "(800-289-6947)" Which
>>>> appears directly after the first text string like so within a screen
>>>> reader: "Buy online or Call 800-BUY-MYHP (800-289-6947)"
>>>>
>>>> Hidden text can be very valuable in many situations.
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>>
>>>> Bryan
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>

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