Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

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Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Srinivas Annam
In my continuing series of ARIA discoveries :)

The current recommendation requires the usage of title attribute to provide
a name for widgets of the following roles: combobox, grid, group, img, list,
listbox, menu, menubar, progressbar, radiogroup, slider, spinbutton,
textbox, tree, treegrid.

Now imagine a listbox or a tree with lot of visible child elements and that
each of these widgets (lisbox and options) are being created using a div.
The outerdiv for the listbox having it's role as "listbox" and each of the
list items having a role of "option". Now, assume that the listbox has a
title defined on it (so it could provide an acc name per current
recommendation) like below:

<div role="listbox" title="My Own Listbox"
aria-activedescendant="listbox1-1">
  <div role="option" id="listbox1-1" class="selected"
aria-selected="true">item 1</div>
  <div role="option" id="listbox1-2" >item 2</div>
  <div role="option" id="listbox1-3" >item 3</div>
</div>

At this time you would notice that hovering over with mouse on anywhere over
the listbox area (including where the individual items are shown) would show
a tooltip with the title. This is coming in as a side effect of browser
usage of title for the tooltip. Given this major UI implication, IMO, this
makes the usage of title to get an acc name on the roles mentioned highly
impractical. I would like to hear other thoughts or ideas. Or if someone
knows a way of getting ARIA name without using a title.

Thanks,
Srinivas

--
Srinivas Annam
Software Engineer, Accessibility
Google, Inc.
Cell: 408.898.4928
Email: [hidden email]
_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Srinivas Annam
I have attached a modified version Mozilla.org Listbox example which shows
the issue.

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 1:02 PM, Srinivas Annam <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In my continuing series of ARIA discoveries :)
>
> The current recommendation requires the usage of title attribute to provide
> a name for widgets of the following roles: combobox, grid, group, img, list,
> listbox, menu, menubar, progressbar, radiogroup, slider, spinbutton,
> textbox, tree, treegrid.
>
> Now imagine a listbox or a tree with lot of visible child elements and that
> each of these widgets (lisbox and options) are being created using a div.
> The outerdiv for the listbox having it's role as "listbox" and each of the
> list items having a role of "option". Now, assume that the listbox has a
> title defined on it (so it could provide an acc name per current
> recommendation) like below:
>
> <div role="listbox" title="My Own Listbox"
> aria-activedescendant="listbox1-1">
>   <div role="option" id="listbox1-1" class="selected"
> aria-selected="true">item 1</div>
>   <div role="option" id="listbox1-2" >item 2</div>
>   <div role="option" id="listbox1-3" >item 3</div>
> </div>
>
> At this time you would notice that hovering over with mouse on anywhere
> over the listbox area (including where the individual items are shown) would
> show a tooltip with the title. This is coming in as a side effect of browser
> usage of title for the tooltip. Given this major UI implication, IMO, this
> makes the usage of title to get an acc name on the roles mentioned highly
> impractical. I would like to hear other thoughts or ideas. Or if someone
> knows a way of getting ARIA name without using a title.
>
> Thanks,
> Srinivas
>
> --
> Srinivas Annam
> Software Engineer, Accessibility
> Google, Inc.
> Cell: 408.898.4928
> Email: [hidden email]
>


--
Srinivas Annam
Software Engineer, Accessibility
Google, Inc.
Cell: 408.898.4928
Email: [hidden email]

_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility

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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Srinivas Annam
Thanks Thomas. I should have mentioned this before, but I am looking for a
technique that isn't as circuitous as aria-labelledby! :) Let me explain why
that is the case - it requires that for every name I want it would require
an additional div or other element to hold the label and I would need to
also ensure that the content is hidden (assuming that I don't want that text
to be seen).

Going back to the bigger issue, why is title being overloaded for providing
the acc name? Why isn't a new attribute (say, aria-name) introduced for that
purpose? My apologies if this already been discussed, a pointer to the old
archives is appreciated.

-- Srinivas

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Thomas Logan <[hidden email]>wrote:

>  Hi Srinivas attached is one way to label the listbox.
>
>
>
> Use a div and give it an id.  I am not sure if there is an ARIA-Role to
> mark something up as a label.  Then on the listbox set the aria-labelledby
> property to the id for your label.  I verified this to work with AccExplorer
> and Firefox 3.   Hopefully most web builders will be using controls from a
> widget library that could already have this relationship set up.
>
>
>
> I still hate the British spelling of labelled in the API but it works J
>
>
>
> *Thomas Logan*,
>
> *BayFirst Solutions LLC*
>
> Office: 206.524.4472
>
> Fax: 206.524.4497
>
> www.bayfirst.com
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] *On
> Behalf Of *Srinivas Annam
> *Sent:* Monday, July 21, 2008 1:06 PM
> *To:* [hidden email]
> *Cc:* [hidden email]
> *Subject:* Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!
>
>
>
> I have attached a modified version Mozilla.org Listbox example which shows
> the issue.
>
> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 1:02 PM, Srinivas Annam <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> In my continuing series of ARIA discoveries :)
>
> The current recommendation requires the usage of title attribute to provide
> a name for widgets of the following roles: combobox, grid, group, img, list,
> listbox, menu, menubar, progressbar, radiogroup, slider, spinbutton,
> textbox, tree, treegrid.
>
> Now imagine a listbox or a tree with lot of visible child elements and that
> each of these widgets (lisbox and options) are being created using a div.
> The outerdiv for the listbox having it's role as "listbox" and each of the
> list items having a role of "option". Now, assume that the listbox has a
> title defined on it (so it could provide an acc name per current
> recommendation) like below:
>
> <div role="listbox" title="My Own Listbox"
> aria-activedescendant="listbox1-1">
>   <div role="option" id="listbox1-1" class="selected"
> aria-selected="true">item 1</div>
>   <div role="option" id="listbox1-2" >item 2</div>
>   <div role="option" id="listbox1-3" >item 3</div>
> </div>
>
> At this time you would notice that hovering over with mouse on anywhere
> over the listbox area (including where the individual items are shown) would
> show a tooltip with the title. This is coming in as a side effect of browser
> usage of title for the tooltip. Given this major UI implication, IMO, this
> makes the usage of title to get an acc name on the roles mentioned highly
> impractical. I would like to hear other thoughts or ideas. Or if someone
> knows a way of getting ARIA name without using a title.
>
> Thanks,
> Srinivas
>
> --
> Srinivas Annam
> Software Engineer, Accessibility
> Google, Inc.
> Cell: 408.898.4928
> Email: [hidden email]
>
_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Srinivas Annam
In reply to this post by Srinivas Annam
Let me clarify this, my question is directly towards roles that support
title as a way of providing acc name -- getting name from child content or
aria-labelledby are different use cases which are not at discussion here.
Given the side effect of title to provide a tooltip for mouse hover can
there be or should there be an alternate mechanism? Why not have aria-name
which can provide the same purpose but without the side effect?

-- Srinivas

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Jon Gunderson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Srinivas,
>
> The "option" role will use the DOM subtree text nodes to generate an
> accessible name for each option.
>
> Jon
>
>
> ---- Original message ----
> >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:02:41 -0700
> >From: Srinivas Annam <[hidden email]>
> >Subject: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!
> >To: [hidden email]
> >Cc: [hidden email]
> >
> >In my continuing series of ARIA discoveries :)
> >
> >The current recommendation requires the usage of title attribute to
> provide
> >a name for widgets of the following roles: combobox, grid, group, img,
> list,
> >listbox, menu, menubar, progressbar, radiogroup, slider, spinbutton,
> >textbox, tree, treegrid.
> >
> >Now imagine a listbox or a tree with lot of visible child elements and
> that
> >each of these widgets (lisbox and options) are being created using a div.
> >The outerdiv for the listbox having it's role as "listbox" and each of the
> >list items having a role of "option". Now, assume that the listbox has a
> >title defined on it (so it could provide an acc name per current
> >recommendation) like below:
> >
> ><div role="listbox" title="My Own Listbox"
> >aria-activedescendant="listbox1-1">
> >  <div role="option" id="listbox1-1" class="selected"
> >aria-selected="true">item 1</div>
> >  <div role="option" id="listbox1-2" >item 2</div>
> >  <div role="option" id="listbox1-3" >item 3</div>
> ></div>
> >
> >At this time you would notice that hovering over with mouse on anywhere
> over
> >the listbox area (including where the individual items are shown) would
> show
> >a tooltip with the title. This is coming in as a side effect of browser
> >usage of title for the tooltip. Given this major UI implication, IMO, this
> >makes the usage of title to get an acc name on the roles mentioned highly
> >impractical. I would like to hear other thoughts or ideas. Or if someone
> >knows a way of getting ARIA name without using a title.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Srinivas
> >
> >--
> >Srinivas Annam
> >Software Engineer, Accessibility
> >Google, Inc.
> >Cell: 408.898.4928
> >Email: [hidden email]
> >_______________________________________________
> >dev-accessibility mailing list
> >[hidden email]
> >https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
> Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
> Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
> Disability Resources and Educational Services
>
> Rehabilitation Education Center
> Room 86
> 1207 S. Oak Street
> Champaign, Illinois 61821
>
> Voice: (217) 244-5870
>
> WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
> WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>
>
>


--
Srinivas Annam
Software Engineer, Accessibility
Google, Inc.
Cell: 408.898.4928
Email: [hidden email]
_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Srinivas Annam
In reply to this post by Srinivas Annam
Jon,

My point is aria-labelledby is a good work around but we should not *forced*
to use it all the time. Additionally, I can not imagine names of menus and
listboxes lying around in all of today's practical applications.

I think we all agreed that because of the tooltip overload title has become
unusable, given that I am proposing that we create an alternate and
equivalent, such as aria-name in its place.

Srinivas

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:02 AM, Jon Gunderson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Srinivas,
>
> Personally I like aria-labelledby by since it is very flexible to reuse
> content already on the page and could actually be configurable if the web
> application, if the developer provides an interface for the user to
> configure what is included in the aria-labelledby list of IDREFs.
>
> Example:
>
> http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/grid/grid2.php
>
> Jon
>
>
> ---- Original message ----
> >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:14:02 -0700
> >From: Srinivas Annam <[hidden email]>
> >Subject: Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!
> >To: Jon Gunderson <[hidden email]>
> >Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
> >
> >   Let me clarify this, my question is directly towards
> >   roles that support title as a way of providing acc
> >   name -- getting name from child content or
> >   aria-labelledby are different use cases which are
> >   not at discussion here. Given the side effect of
> >   title to provide a tooltip for mouse hover can there
> >   be or should there be an alternate mechanism? Why
> >   not have aria-name which can provide the same
> >   purpose but without the side effect?
> >
> >   -- Srinivas
> >
> >   On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Jon Gunderson
> >   <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >     Srinivas,
> >
> >     The "option" role will use the DOM subtree text
> >     nodes to generate an accessible name for each
> >     option.
> >     Jon
> >
> >     ---- Original message ----
> >     >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:02:41 -0700
> >     >From: Srinivas Annam <[hidden email]>
> >     >Subject: Using title for ARIA name is
> >     impractical!
> >     >To: [hidden email]
> >     >Cc: [hidden email]
> >     >
> >     >In my continuing series of ARIA discoveries :)
> >     >
> >     >The current recommendation requires the usage of
> >     title attribute to provide
> >     >a name for widgets of the following roles:
> >     combobox, grid, group, img, list,
> >     >listbox, menu, menubar, progressbar, radiogroup,
> >     slider, spinbutton,
> >     >textbox, tree, treegrid.
> >     >
> >     >Now imagine a listbox or a tree with lot of
> >     visible child elements and that
> >     >each of these widgets (lisbox and options) are
> >     being created using a div.
> >     >The outerdiv for the listbox having it's role as
> >     "listbox" and each of the
> >     >list items having a role of "option". Now, assume
> >     that the listbox has a
> >     >title defined on it (so it could provide an acc
> >     name per current
> >     >recommendation) like below:
> >     >
> >     ><div role="listbox" title="My Own Listbox"
> >     >aria-activedescendant="listbox1-1">
> >     >  <div role="option" id="listbox1-1"
> >     class="selected"
> >     >aria-selected="true">item 1</div>
> >     >  <div role="option" id="listbox1-2" >item
> >     2</div>
> >     >  <div role="option" id="listbox1-3" >item
> >     3</div>
> >     ></div>
> >     >
> >     >At this time you would notice that hovering over
> >     with mouse on anywhere over
> >     >the listbox area (including where the individual
> >     items are shown) would show
> >     >a tooltip with the title. This is coming in as a
> >     side effect of browser
> >     >usage of title for the tooltip. Given this major
> >     UI implication, IMO, this
> >     >makes the usage of title to get an acc name on
> >     the roles mentioned highly
> >     >impractical. I would like to hear other thoughts
> >     or ideas. Or if someone
> >     >knows a way of getting ARIA name without using a
> >     title.
> >     >
> >     >Thanks,
> >     >Srinivas
> >     >
> >     >--
> >     >Srinivas Annam
> >     >Software Engineer, Accessibility
> >     >Google, Inc.
> >     >Cell: 408.898.4928
> >     >Email: [hidden email]
> >     >_______________________________________________
> >     >dev-accessibility mailing list
> >     >[hidden email]
> >     >https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
> >     Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
> >     Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
> >     Disability Resources and Educational Services
> >
> >     Rehabilitation Education Center
> >     Room 86
> >     1207 S. Oak Street
> >     Champaign, Illinois 61821
> >
> >     Voice: (217) 244-5870
> >
> >     WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
> >     WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
> >
> >   --
> >   Srinivas Annam
> >   Software Engineer, Accessibility
> >   Google, Inc.
> >   Cell: 408.898.4928
> >   Email: [hidden email]
> Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
> Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
> Disability Resources and Educational Services
>
> Rehabilitation Education Center
> Room 86
> 1207 S. Oak Street
> Champaign, Illinois 61821
>
> Voice: (217) 244-5870
>
> WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
> WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>
>
>


--
Srinivas Annam
Software Engineer, Accessibility
Google, Inc.
Cell: 408.898.4928
Email: [hidden email]
_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Srinivas Annam
I would like to provide an additional example in the hopes of clarifying.
Take the scenario I would have used title which is also the case where I
don't have the text for acc name anywhere else. So by using aria-labelledby
for such case you would have to serve the additional bytes which when
multiplied by the number of times used in your application and repeated over
millions of downloads it can make a huge difference in application
performance.

Here I have code snippets for each case -

*<div class="ofscr" id="stid">*My menu name*</div>*
<div role="menu" *aria-labelledby="stid"*>
  ... items go here
</div>

vs.

**<div role="menu" *aria-name="*My menu name*"*>
  ... items go here
</div>

>From above you can see that there is a difference of 48 bytes per usage, now
multiply that by three. Now, assume that you have 1M page servings / day,
you get 144MB of extra bytes to be served, all because I couldn't use a
title! :) Hope you get the idea.

Thanks,
Srinivas

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Srinivas Annam <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Jon,
>
> My point is aria-labelledby is a good work around but we should not
> *forced* to use it all the time. Additionally, I can not imagine names of
> menus and listboxes lying around in all of today's practical applications.
>
> I think we all agreed that because of the tooltip overload title has become
> unusable, given that I am proposing that we create an alternate and
> equivalent, such as aria-name in its place.
>
> Srinivas
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:02 AM, Jon Gunderson <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> Srinivas,
>>
>> Personally I like aria-labelledby by since it is very flexible to reuse
>> content already on the page and could actually be configurable if the web
>> application, if the developer provides an interface for the user to
>> configure what is included in the aria-labelledby list of IDREFs.
>>
>> Example:
>>
>> http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/grid/grid2.php
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>> ---- Original message ----
>> >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:14:02 -0700
>> >From: Srinivas Annam <[hidden email]>
>> >Subject: Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!
>> >To: Jon Gunderson <[hidden email]>
>> >Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
>> >
>> >   Let me clarify this, my question is directly towards
>> >   roles that support title as a way of providing acc
>> >   name -- getting name from child content or
>> >   aria-labelledby are different use cases which are
>> >   not at discussion here. Given the side effect of
>> >   title to provide a tooltip for mouse hover can there
>> >   be or should there be an alternate mechanism? Why
>> >   not have aria-name which can provide the same
>> >   purpose but without the side effect?
>> >
>> >   -- Srinivas
>> >
>> >   On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Jon Gunderson
>> >   <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> >     Srinivas,
>> >
>> >     The "option" role will use the DOM subtree text
>> >     nodes to generate an accessible name for each
>> >     option.
>> >     Jon
>> >
>> >     ---- Original message ----
>> >     >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:02:41 -0700
>> >     >From: Srinivas Annam <[hidden email]>
>> >     >Subject: Using title for ARIA name is
>> >     impractical!
>> >     >To: [hidden email]
>> >     >Cc: [hidden email]
>> >     >
>> >     >In my continuing series of ARIA discoveries :)
>> >     >
>> >     >The current recommendation requires the usage of
>> >     title attribute to provide
>> >     >a name for widgets of the following roles:
>> >     combobox, grid, group, img, list,
>> >     >listbox, menu, menubar, progressbar, radiogroup,
>> >     slider, spinbutton,
>> >     >textbox, tree, treegrid.
>> >     >
>> >     >Now imagine a listbox or a tree with lot of
>> >     visible child elements and that
>> >     >each of these widgets (lisbox and options) are
>> >     being created using a div.
>> >     >The outerdiv for the listbox having it's role as
>> >     "listbox" and each of the
>> >     >list items having a role of "option". Now, assume
>> >     that the listbox has a
>> >     >title defined on it (so it could provide an acc
>> >     name per current
>> >     >recommendation) like below:
>> >     >
>> >     ><div role="listbox" title="My Own Listbox"
>> >     >aria-activedescendant="listbox1-1">
>> >     >  <div role="option" id="listbox1-1"
>> >     class="selected"
>> >     >aria-selected="true">item 1</div>
>> >     >  <div role="option" id="listbox1-2" >item
>> >     2</div>
>> >     >  <div role="option" id="listbox1-3" >item
>> >     3</div>
>> >     ></div>
>> >     >
>> >     >At this time you would notice that hovering over
>> >     with mouse on anywhere over
>> >     >the listbox area (including where the individual
>> >     items are shown) would show
>> >     >a tooltip with the title. This is coming in as a
>> >     side effect of browser
>> >     >usage of title for the tooltip. Given this major
>> >     UI implication, IMO, this
>> >     >makes the usage of title to get an acc name on
>> >     the roles mentioned highly
>> >     >impractical. I would like to hear other thoughts
>> >     or ideas. Or if someone
>> >     >knows a way of getting ARIA name without using a
>> >     title.
>> >     >
>> >     >Thanks,
>> >     >Srinivas
>> >     >
>> >     >--
>> >     >Srinivas Annam
>> >     >Software Engineer, Accessibility
>> >     >Google, Inc.
>> >     >Cell: 408.898.4928
>> >     >Email: [hidden email]
>> >     >_______________________________________________
>> >     >dev-accessibility mailing list
>> >     >[hidden email]
>> >     >https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>> >     Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>> >     Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>> >     Disability Resources and Educational Services
>> >
>> >     Rehabilitation Education Center
>> >     Room 86
>> >     1207 S. Oak Street
>> >     Champaign, Illinois 61821
>> >
>> >     Voice: (217) 244-5870
>> >
>> >     WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>> >     WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>> >
>> >   --
>> >   Srinivas Annam
>> >   Software Engineer, Accessibility
>> >   Google, Inc.
>> >   Cell: 408.898.4928
>> >   Email: [hidden email]
>> Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>> Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>> Disability Resources and Educational Services
>>
>> Rehabilitation Education Center
>> Room 86
>> 1207 S. Oak Street
>> Champaign, Illinois 61821
>>
>> Voice: (217) 244-5870
>>
>> WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>> WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Srinivas Annam
> Software Engineer, Accessibility
> Google, Inc.
> Cell: 408.898.4928
> Email: [hidden email]
>



--
Srinivas Annam
Software Engineer, Accessibility
Google, Inc.
Cell: 408.898.4928
Email: [hidden email]
_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Aaron Leventhal-3
In reply to this post by Srinivas Annam
Hi Sri,

I have the idea, although I had not seen a scenario where you want the
menu text to be different from what's shown visually yet. How common do
you think that is? I take your idea seriously but would like to know
when/why that happens.  Is it because of the Firefox bug where the
hidden descendants are showing up in the name? (Because, if it's because
of a bug I don't think we should add a new feature; we should
just fix the bug instead).

- Aaron

Srinivas Annam wrote:

> I would like to provide an additional example in the hopes of clarifying.
> Take the scenario I would have used title which is also the case where I
> don't have the text for acc name anywhere else. So by using aria-labelledby
> for such case you would have to serve the additional bytes which when
> multiplied by the number of times used in your application and repeated over
> millions of downloads it can make a huge difference in application
> performance.
>
> Here I have code snippets for each case -
>
> *<div class="ofscr" id="stid">*My menu name*</div>*
> <div role="menu" *aria-labelledby="stid"*>
>    ... items go here
> </div>
>
> vs.
>
> **<div role="menu" *aria-name="*My menu name*"*>
>    ... items go here
> </div>
>
>> From above you can see that there is a difference of 48 bytes per usage, now
> multiply that by three. Now, assume that you have 1M page servings / day,
> you get 144MB of extra bytes to be served, all because I couldn't use a
> title! :) Hope you get the idea.
>
> Thanks,
> Srinivas
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>> Jon,
>>
>> My point is aria-labelledby is a good work around but we should not
>> *forced* to use it all the time. Additionally, I can not imagine names of
>> menus and listboxes lying around in all of today's practical applications.
>>
>> I think we all agreed that because of the tooltip overload title has become
>> unusable, given that I am proposing that we create an alternate and
>> equivalent, such as aria-name in its place.
>>
>> Srinivas
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:02 AM, Jon Gunderson<[hidden email]>wrote:
>>
>>> Srinivas,
>>>
>>> Personally I like aria-labelledby by since it is very flexible to reuse
>>> content already on the page and could actually be configurable if the web
>>> application, if the developer provides an interface for the user to
>>> configure what is included in the aria-labelledby list of IDREFs.
>>>
>>> Example:
>>>
>>> http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/grid/grid2.php
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>>>
>>> ---- Original message ----
>>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:14:02 -0700
>>>> From: Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]>
>>>> Subject: Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!
>>>> To: Jon Gunderson<[hidden email]>
>>>> Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>>    Let me clarify this, my question is directly towards
>>>>    roles that support title as a way of providing acc
>>>>    name -- getting name from child content or
>>>>    aria-labelledby are different use cases which are
>>>>    not at discussion here. Given the side effect of
>>>>    title to provide a tooltip for mouse hover can there
>>>>    be or should there be an alternate mechanism? Why
>>>>    not have aria-name which can provide the same
>>>>    purpose but without the side effect?
>>>>
>>>>    -- Srinivas
>>>>
>>>>    On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Jon Gunderson
>>>>    <[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>      Srinivas,
>>>>
>>>>      The "option" role will use the DOM subtree text
>>>>      nodes to generate an accessible name for each
>>>>      option.
>>>>      Jon
>>>>
>>>>      ---- Original message ----
>>>>      >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:02:41 -0700
>>>>      >From: Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]>
>>>>      >Subject: Using title for ARIA name is
>>>>      impractical!
>>>>      >To: [hidden email]
>>>>      >Cc: [hidden email]
>>>>      >
>>>>      >In my continuing series of ARIA discoveries :)
>>>>      >
>>>>      >The current recommendation requires the usage of
>>>>      title attribute to provide
>>>>      >a name for widgets of the following roles:
>>>>      combobox, grid, group, img, list,
>>>>      >listbox, menu, menubar, progressbar, radiogroup,
>>>>      slider, spinbutton,
>>>>      >textbox, tree, treegrid.
>>>>      >
>>>>      >Now imagine a listbox or a tree with lot of
>>>>      visible child elements and that
>>>>      >each of these widgets (lisbox and options) are
>>>>      being created using a div.
>>>>      >The outerdiv for the listbox having it's role as
>>>>      "listbox" and each of the
>>>>      >list items having a role of "option". Now, assume
>>>>      that the listbox has a
>>>>      >title defined on it (so it could provide an acc
>>>>      name per current
>>>>      >recommendation) like below:
>>>>      >
>>>>      ><div role="listbox" title="My Own Listbox"
>>>>      >aria-activedescendant="listbox1-1">
>>>>      >   <div role="option" id="listbox1-1"
>>>>      class="selected"
>>>>      >aria-selected="true">item 1</div>
>>>>      >   <div role="option" id="listbox1-2">item
>>>>      2</div>
>>>>      >   <div role="option" id="listbox1-3">item
>>>>      3</div>
>>>>      ></div>
>>>>      >
>>>>      >At this time you would notice that hovering over
>>>>      with mouse on anywhere over
>>>>      >the listbox area (including where the individual
>>>>      items are shown) would show
>>>>      >a tooltip with the title. This is coming in as a
>>>>      side effect of browser
>>>>      >usage of title for the tooltip. Given this major
>>>>      UI implication, IMO, this
>>>>      >makes the usage of title to get an acc name on
>>>>      the roles mentioned highly
>>>>      >impractical. I would like to hear other thoughts
>>>>      or ideas. Or if someone
>>>>      >knows a way of getting ARIA name without using a
>>>>      title.
>>>>      >
>>>>      >Thanks,
>>>>      >Srinivas
>>>>      >
>>>>      >--
>>>>      >Srinivas Annam
>>>>      >Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>>>      >Google, Inc.
>>>>      >Cell: 408.898.4928
>>>>      >Email: [hidden email]
>>>>      >_______________________________________________
>>>>      >dev-accessibility mailing list
>>>>      >[hidden email]
>>>>      >https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>>>>      Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>>>>      Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>>>>      Disability Resources and Educational Services
>>>>
>>>>      Rehabilitation Education Center
>>>>      Room 86
>>>>      1207 S. Oak Street
>>>>      Champaign, Illinois 61821
>>>>
>>>>      Voice: (217) 244-5870
>>>>
>>>>      WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>>>>      WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>>>>
>>>>    --
>>>>    Srinivas Annam
>>>>    Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>>>    Google, Inc.
>>>>    Cell: 408.898.4928
>>>>    Email: [hidden email]
>>> Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>>> Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>>> Disability Resources and Educational Services
>>>
>>> Rehabilitation Education Center
>>> Room 86
>>> 1207 S. Oak Street
>>> Champaign, Illinois 61821
>>>
>>> Voice: (217) 244-5870
>>>
>>> WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>>> WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Srinivas Annam
>> Software Engineer, Accessibility
>> Google, Inc.
>> Cell: 408.898.4928
>> Email: [hidden email]
>>
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Srinivas Annam
Hi Aaron,

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Aaron Leventhal <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> Hi Sri,
>
> I have the idea, although I had not seen a scenario where you want the
> menu text to be different from what's shown visually yet.


Not different, but the text is not being shown visually at all in these
cases. Here are some scenarios -

   1. You have a listbox (visually not titled), which takes focus on itself
   and subsequently on it's list items. Provide a title on the listbox which
   has the outermost div and the option items being inside. The title provided
   on the listbox bleeds through as I hover over on any of the option items.
   (see the modified listbox example I sent earlier)
   2. Have a menu button (with a role of button and haspopup is set to
   true), the button has it's own text and drop down arrow will show a popup
   menu and set the focus to popup. Adding a title on the popup menu will
   introduce a tooltip as I hover over any of the menu items.
   3. Similarly a tree having the outermost div and a title. Hovering on the
   tree items will show the title as tooltip.

When I first encountered the issue I did not see it so much as a bug in the
browser, but I do want to understand why you think it is. What is the
expected behavior when you have a title on a div, should the tooltip be
shown across the entire area that the div is covering or not (since there is
no title for the child elements)? Would love to hear your thoughts.

-- Srinivas


> How common do
> you think that is? I take your idea seriously but would like to know
> when/why that happens.  Is it because of the Firefox bug where the
> hidden descendants are showing up in the name? (Because, if it's because
> of a bug I don't think we should add a new feature; we should
> just fix the bug instead).
>
> - Aaron
>
> Srinivas Annam wrote:
> > I would like to provide an additional example in the hopes of clarifying.
> > Take the scenario I would have used title which is also the case where I
> > don't have the text for acc name anywhere else. So by using
> aria-labelledby
> > for such case you would have to serve the additional bytes which when
> > multiplied by the number of times used in your application and repeated
> over
> > millions of downloads it can make a huge difference in application
> > performance.
> >
> > Here I have code snippets for each case -
> >
> > *<div class="ofscr" id="stid">*My menu name*</div>*
> > <div role="menu" *aria-labelledby="stid"*>
> >    ... items go here
> > </div>
> >
> > vs.
> >
> > **<div role="menu" *aria-name="*My menu name*"*>
> >    ... items go here
> > </div>
> >
> >> From above you can see that there is a difference of 48 bytes per usage,
> now
> > multiply that by three. Now, assume that you have 1M page servings / day,
> > you get 144MB of extra bytes to be served, all because I couldn't use a
> > title! :) Hope you get the idea.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Srinivas
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]>
>  wrote:
> >
> >> Jon,
> >>
> >> My point is aria-labelledby is a good work around but we should not
> >> *forced* to use it all the time. Additionally, I can not imagine names
> of
> >> menus and listboxes lying around in all of today's practical
> applications.
> >>
> >> I think we all agreed that because of the tooltip overload title has
> become
> >> unusable, given that I am proposing that we create an alternate and
> >> equivalent, such as aria-name in its place.
> >>
> >> Srinivas
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:02 AM, Jon Gunderson<[hidden email]
> >wrote:
> >>
> >>> Srinivas,
> >>>
> >>> Personally I like aria-labelledby by since it is very flexible to reuse
> >>> content already on the page and could actually be configurable if the
> web
> >>> application, if the developer provides an interface for the user to
> >>> configure what is included in the aria-labelledby list of IDREFs.
> >>>
> >>> Example:
> >>>
> >>> http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/grid/grid2.php
> >>>
> >>> Jon
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ---- Original message ----
> >>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:14:02 -0700
> >>>> From: Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]>
> >>>> Subject: Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!
> >>>> To: Jon Gunderson<[hidden email]>
> >>>> Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
> >>>>
> >>>>    Let me clarify this, my question is directly towards
> >>>>    roles that support title as a way of providing acc
> >>>>    name -- getting name from child content or
> >>>>    aria-labelledby are different use cases which are
> >>>>    not at discussion here. Given the side effect of
> >>>>    title to provide a tooltip for mouse hover can there
> >>>>    be or should there be an alternate mechanism? Why
> >>>>    not have aria-name which can provide the same
> >>>>    purpose but without the side effect?
> >>>>
> >>>>    -- Srinivas
> >>>>
> >>>>    On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Jon Gunderson
> >>>>    <[hidden email]>  wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>      Srinivas,
> >>>>
> >>>>      The "option" role will use the DOM subtree text
> >>>>      nodes to generate an accessible name for each
> >>>>      option.
> >>>>      Jon
> >>>>
> >>>>      ---- Original message ----
> >>>>      >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:02:41 -0700
> >>>>      >From: Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]>
> >>>>      >Subject: Using title for ARIA name is
> >>>>      impractical!
> >>>>      >To: [hidden email]
> >>>>      >Cc: [hidden email]
> >>>>      >
> >>>>      >In my continuing series of ARIA discoveries :)
> >>>>      >
> >>>>      >The current recommendation requires the usage of
> >>>>      title attribute to provide
> >>>>      >a name for widgets of the following roles:
> >>>>      combobox, grid, group, img, list,
> >>>>      >listbox, menu, menubar, progressbar, radiogroup,
> >>>>      slider, spinbutton,
> >>>>      >textbox, tree, treegrid.
> >>>>      >
> >>>>      >Now imagine a listbox or a tree with lot of
> >>>>      visible child elements and that
> >>>>      >each of these widgets (lisbox and options) are
> >>>>      being created using a div.
> >>>>      >The outerdiv for the listbox having it's role as
> >>>>      "listbox" and each of the
> >>>>      >list items having a role of "option". Now, assume
> >>>>      that the listbox has a
> >>>>      >title defined on it (so it could provide an acc
> >>>>      name per current
> >>>>      >recommendation) like below:
> >>>>      >
> >>>>      ><div role="listbox" title="My Own Listbox"
> >>>>      >aria-activedescendant="listbox1-1">
> >>>>      >   <div role="option" id="listbox1-1"
> >>>>      class="selected"
> >>>>      >aria-selected="true">item 1</div>
> >>>>      >   <div role="option" id="listbox1-2">item
> >>>>      2</div>
> >>>>      >   <div role="option" id="listbox1-3">item
> >>>>      3</div>
> >>>>      ></div>
> >>>>      >
> >>>>      >At this time you would notice that hovering over
> >>>>      with mouse on anywhere over
> >>>>      >the listbox area (including where the individual
> >>>>      items are shown) would show
> >>>>      >a tooltip with the title. This is coming in as a
> >>>>      side effect of browser
> >>>>      >usage of title for the tooltip. Given this major
> >>>>      UI implication, IMO, this
> >>>>      >makes the usage of title to get an acc name on
> >>>>      the roles mentioned highly
> >>>>      >impractical. I would like to hear other thoughts
> >>>>      or ideas. Or if someone
> >>>>      >knows a way of getting ARIA name without using a
> >>>>      title.
> >>>>      >
> >>>>      >Thanks,
> >>>>      >Srinivas
> >>>>      >
> >>>>      >--
> >>>>      >Srinivas Annam
> >>>>      >Software Engineer, Accessibility
> >>>>      >Google, Inc.
> >>>>      >Cell: 408.898.4928
> >>>>      >Email: [hidden email]
> >>>>      >_______________________________________________
> >>>>      >dev-accessibility mailing list
> >>>>      >[hidden email]
> >>>>      >https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
> >>>>      Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
> >>>>      Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
> >>>>      Disability Resources and Educational Services
> >>>>
> >>>>      Rehabilitation Education Center
> >>>>      Room 86
> >>>>      1207 S. Oak Street
> >>>>      Champaign, Illinois 61821
> >>>>
> >>>>      Voice: (217) 244-5870
> >>>>
> >>>>      WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
> >>>>      WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
> >>>>
> >>>>    --
> >>>>    Srinivas Annam
> >>>>    Software Engineer, Accessibility
> >>>>    Google, Inc.
> >>>>    Cell: 408.898.4928
> >>>>    Email: [hidden email]
> >>> Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
> >>> Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
> >>> Disability Resources and Educational Services
> >>>
> >>> Rehabilitation Education Center
> >>> Room 86
> >>> 1207 S. Oak Street
> >>> Champaign, Illinois 61821
> >>>
> >>> Voice: (217) 244-5870
> >>>
> >>> WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
> >>> WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Srinivas Annam
> >> Software Engineer, Accessibility
> >> Google, Inc.
> >> Cell: 408.898.4928
> >> Email: [hidden email]
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>



--
Srinivas Annam
Software Engineer, Accessibility
Google, Inc.
Cell: 408.898.4928
Email: [hidden email]
_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
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https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Aaron Leventhal-3
That's definitely the expected behavior for title (being part of HTML
not ARIA).

My question was really, when do you need to have an accessible name
different from what's shown?

- Aaron

Srinivas Annam wrote:

> Hi Aaron,
>
> On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Aaron Leventhal
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Sri,
>
>     I have the idea, although I had not seen a scenario where you want the
>     menu text to be different from what's shown visually yet.
>
>
> Not different, but the text is not being shown visually at all in
> these cases. Here are some scenarios -
>
>    1. You have a listbox (visually not titled), which takes focus on
>       itself and subsequently on it's list items. Provide a title on
>       the listbox which has the outermost div and the option items
>       being inside. The title provided on the listbox bleeds through
>       as I hover over on any of the option items. (see the modified
>       listbox example I sent earlier)
>    2. Have a menu button (with a role of button and haspopup is set to
>       true), the button has it's own text and drop down arrow will
>       show a popup menu and set the focus to popup. Adding a title on
>       the popup menu will introduce a tooltip as I hover over any of
>       the menu items.
>    3. Similarly a tree having the outermost div and a title. Hovering
>       on the tree items will show the title as tooltip.
>
> When I first encountered the issue I did not see it so much as a bug
> in the browser, but I do want to understand why you think it is. What
> is the expected behavior when you have a title on a div, should the
> tooltip be shown across the entire area that the div is covering or
> not (since there is no title for the child elements)? Would love to
> hear your thoughts.
>
> -- Srinivas
>
>     How common do
>     you think that is? I take your idea seriously but would like to know
>     when/why that happens.  Is it because of the Firefox bug where the
>     hidden descendants are showing up in the name? (Because, if it's
>     because
>     of a bug I don't think we should add a new feature; we should
>     just fix the bug instead).
>
>     - Aaron
>
>     Srinivas Annam wrote:
>     > I would like to provide an additional example in the hopes of
>     clarifying.
>     > Take the scenario I would have used title which is also the case
>     where I
>     > don't have the text for acc name anywhere else. So by using
>     aria-labelledby
>     > for such case you would have to serve the additional bytes which
>     when
>     > multiplied by the number of times used in your application and
>     repeated over
>     > millions of downloads it can make a huge difference in application
>     > performance.
>     >
>     > Here I have code snippets for each case -
>     >
>     > *<div class="ofscr" id="stid">*My menu name*</div>*
>     > <div role="menu" *aria-labelledby="stid"*>
>     >    ... items go here
>     > </div>
>     >
>     > vs.
>     >
>     > **<div role="menu" *aria-name="*My menu name*"*>
>     >    ... items go here
>     > </div>
>     >
>     >> From above you can see that there is a difference of 48 bytes
>     per usage, now
>     > multiply that by three. Now, assume that you have 1M page
>     servings / day,
>     > you get 144MB of extra bytes to be served, all because I
>     couldn't use a
>     > title! :) Hope you get the idea.
>     >
>     > Thanks,
>     > Srinivas
>     >
>     > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Srinivas
>     Annam<[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>  wrote:
>     >
>     >> Jon,
>     >>
>     >> My point is aria-labelledby is a good work around but we should not
>     >> *forced* to use it all the time. Additionally, I can not
>     imagine names of
>     >> menus and listboxes lying around in all of today's practical
>     applications.
>     >>
>     >> I think we all agreed that because of the tooltip overload
>     title has become
>     >> unusable, given that I am proposing that we create an alternate and
>     >> equivalent, such as aria-name in its place.
>     >>
>     >> Srinivas
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:02 AM, Jon
>     Gunderson<[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>wrote:
>     >>
>     >>> Srinivas,
>     >>>
>     >>> Personally I like aria-labelledby by since it is very flexible
>     to reuse
>     >>> content already on the page and could actually be configurable
>     if the web
>     >>> application, if the developer provides an interface for the
>     user to
>     >>> configure what is included in the aria-labelledby list of IDREFs.
>     >>>
>     >>> Example:
>     >>>
>     >>> http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/grid/grid2.php
>     >>>
>     >>> Jon
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> ---- Original message ----
>     >>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:14:02 -0700
>     >>>> From: Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     >>>> Subject: Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!
>     >>>> To: Jon Gunderson<[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     >>>> Cc: [hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     >>>>
>     >>>>    Let me clarify this, my question is directly towards
>     >>>>    roles that support title as a way of providing acc
>     >>>>    name -- getting name from child content or
>     >>>>    aria-labelledby are different use cases which are
>     >>>>    not at discussion here. Given the side effect of
>     >>>>    title to provide a tooltip for mouse hover can there
>     >>>>    be or should there be an alternate mechanism? Why
>     >>>>    not have aria-name which can provide the same
>     >>>>    purpose but without the side effect?
>     >>>>
>     >>>>    -- Srinivas
>     >>>>
>     >>>>    On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Jon Gunderson
>     >>>> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>  wrote:
>     >>>>
>     >>>>      Srinivas,
>     >>>>
>     >>>>      The "option" role will use the DOM subtree text
>     >>>>      nodes to generate an accessible name for each
>     >>>>      option.
>     >>>>      Jon
>     >>>>
>     >>>>      ---- Original message ----
>     >>>> >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:02:41 -0700
>     >>>> >From: Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     >>>> >Subject: Using title for ARIA name is
>     >>>>      impractical!
>     >>>> >To: [hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     >>>> >Cc: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     >>>> >
>     >>>> >In my continuing series of ARIA discoveries :)
>     >>>> >
>     >>>> >The current recommendation requires the usage of
>     >>>>      title attribute to provide
>     >>>> >a name for widgets of the following roles:
>     >>>>      combobox, grid, group, img, list,
>     >>>> >listbox, menu, menubar, progressbar, radiogroup,
>     >>>>      slider, spinbutton,
>     >>>> >textbox, tree, treegrid.
>     >>>> >
>     >>>> >Now imagine a listbox or a tree with lot of
>     >>>>      visible child elements and that
>     >>>> >each of these widgets (lisbox and options) are
>     >>>>      being created using a div.
>     >>>> >The outerdiv for the listbox having it's role as
>     >>>>      "listbox" and each of the
>     >>>> >list items having a role of "option". Now, assume
>     >>>>      that the listbox has a
>     >>>> >title defined on it (so it could provide an acc
>     >>>>      name per current
>     >>>> >recommendation) like below:
>     >>>> >
>     >>>> ><div role="listbox" title="My Own Listbox"
>     >>>> >aria-activedescendant="listbox1-1">
>     >>>> > <div role="option" id="listbox1-1"
>     >>>>      class="selected"
>     >>>> >aria-selected="true">item 1</div>
>     >>>> > <div role="option" id="listbox1-2">item
>     >>>>      2</div>
>     >>>> > <div role="option" id="listbox1-3">item
>     >>>>      3</div>
>     >>>> ></div>
>     >>>> >
>     >>>> >At this time you would notice that hovering over
>     >>>>      with mouse on anywhere over
>     >>>> >the listbox area (including where the individual
>     >>>>      items are shown) would show
>     >>>> >a tooltip with the title. This is coming in as a
>     >>>>      side effect of browser
>     >>>> >usage of title for the tooltip. Given this major
>     >>>>      UI implication, IMO, this
>     >>>> >makes the usage of title to get an acc name on
>     >>>>      the roles mentioned highly
>     >>>> >impractical. I would like to hear other thoughts
>     >>>>      or ideas. Or if someone
>     >>>> >knows a way of getting ARIA name without using a
>     >>>>      title.
>     >>>> >
>     >>>> >Thanks,
>     >>>> >Srinivas
>     >>>> >
>     >>>> >--
>     >>>> >Srinivas Annam
>     >>>> >Software Engineer, Accessibility
>     >>>> >Google, Inc.
>     >>>> >Cell: 408.898.4928
>     >>>> >Email: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     >>>> >_______________________________________________
>     >>>> >dev-accessibility mailing list
>     >>>> >[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     >>>> >https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>     >>>>      Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>     >>>>      Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>     >>>>      Disability Resources and Educational Services
>     >>>>
>     >>>>      Rehabilitation Education Center
>     >>>>      Room 86
>     >>>>      1207 S. Oak Street
>     >>>>      Champaign, Illinois 61821
>     >>>>
>     >>>>      Voice: (217) 244-5870
>     >>>>
>     >>>>      WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>     >>>>      WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>     >>>>
>     >>>>    --
>     >>>>    Srinivas Annam
>     >>>>    Software Engineer, Accessibility
>     >>>>    Google, Inc.
>     >>>>    Cell: 408.898.4928
>     >>>>    Email: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     >>> Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>     >>> Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>     >>> Disability Resources and Educational Services
>     >>>
>     >>> Rehabilitation Education Center
>     >>> Room 86
>     >>> 1207 S. Oak Street
>     >>> Champaign, Illinois 61821
>     >>>
>     >>> Voice: (217) 244-5870
>     >>>
>     >>> WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>     >>> WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>
>     >> --
>     >> Srinivas Annam
>     >> Software Engineer, Accessibility
>     >> Google, Inc.
>     >> Cell: 408.898.4928
>     >> Email: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     >>
>     >
>     >
>     >
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     dev-accessibility mailing list
>     [hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>
>
>
>
> --
> Srinivas Annam
> Software Engineer, Accessibility
> Google, Inc.
> Cell: 408.898.4928
> Email: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>


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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Srinivas Annam
In all the scenarios I explained there is nothing being shown, so I do need
an accessible name for all of them. Please take a look at the sample I
provided which showcases the problem.

-- Srinivas

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Aaron Leventhal <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> That's definitely the expected behavior for title (being part of HTML not
> ARIA).
>
> My question was really, when do you need to have an accessible name
> different from what's shown?
>
> - Aaron
>
> Srinivas Annam wrote:
>
>> Hi Aaron,
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Aaron Leventhal <
>> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>    Hi Sri,
>>
>>    I have the idea, although I had not seen a scenario where you want the
>>    menu text to be different from what's shown visually yet.
>>
>> Not different, but the text is not being shown visually at all in these
>> cases. Here are some scenarios -
>>
>>   1. You have a listbox (visually not titled), which takes focus on
>>      itself and subsequently on it's list items. Provide a title on
>>      the listbox which has the outermost div and the option items
>>      being inside. The title provided on the listbox bleeds through
>>      as I hover over on any of the option items. (see the modified
>>      listbox example I sent earlier)
>>   2. Have a menu button (with a role of button and haspopup is set to
>>      true), the button has it's own text and drop down arrow will
>>      show a popup menu and set the focus to popup. Adding a title on
>>      the popup menu will introduce a tooltip as I hover over any of
>>      the menu items.
>>   3. Similarly a tree having the outermost div and a title. Hovering
>>
>>      on the tree items will show the title as tooltip.
>>
>> When I first encountered the issue I did not see it so much as a bug in
>> the browser, but I do want to understand why you think it is. What is the
>> expected behavior when you have a title on a div, should the tooltip be
>> shown across the entire area that the div is covering or not (since there is
>> no title for the child elements)? Would love to hear your thoughts.
>>
>> -- Srinivas
>>
>>    How common do
>>    you think that is? I take your idea seriously but would like to know
>>    when/why that happens.  Is it because of the Firefox bug where the
>>    hidden descendants are showing up in the name? (Because, if it's
>>    because
>>    of a bug I don't think we should add a new feature; we should
>>    just fix the bug instead).
>>
>>    - Aaron
>>
>>    Srinivas Annam wrote:
>>    > I would like to provide an additional example in the hopes of
>>    clarifying.
>>    > Take the scenario I would have used title which is also the case
>>    where I
>>    > don't have the text for acc name anywhere else. So by using
>>    aria-labelledby
>>    > for such case you would have to serve the additional bytes which
>>    when
>>    > multiplied by the number of times used in your application and
>>    repeated over
>>    > millions of downloads it can make a huge difference in application
>>    > performance.
>>    >
>>    > Here I have code snippets for each case -
>>    >
>>    > *<div class="ofscr" id="stid">*My menu name*</div>*
>>    > <div role="menu" *aria-labelledby="stid"*>
>>    >    ... items go here
>>    > </div>
>>    >
>>    > vs.
>>    >
>>    > **<div role="menu" *aria-name="*My menu name*"*>
>>    >    ... items go here
>>    > </div>
>>    >
>>    >> From above you can see that there is a difference of 48 bytes
>>    per usage, now
>>    > multiply that by three. Now, assume that you have 1M page
>>    servings / day,
>>    > you get 144MB of extra bytes to be served, all because I
>>    couldn't use a
>>    > title! :) Hope you get the idea.
>>    >
>>    > Thanks,
>>    > Srinivas
>>    >
>>    > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Srinivas
>>    Annam<[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>  wrote:
>>    >
>>    >> Jon,
>>    >>
>>    >> My point is aria-labelledby is a good work around but we should not
>>    >> *forced* to use it all the time. Additionally, I can not
>>    imagine names of
>>    >> menus and listboxes lying around in all of today's practical
>>    applications.
>>    >>
>>    >> I think we all agreed that because of the tooltip overload
>>    title has become
>>    >> unusable, given that I am proposing that we create an alternate and
>>    >> equivalent, such as aria-name in its place.
>>    >>
>>    >> Srinivas
>>    >>
>>    >>
>>    >> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:02 AM, Jon
>>    Gunderson<[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>wrote:
>>    >>
>>    >>> Srinivas,
>>    >>>
>>    >>> Personally I like aria-labelledby by since it is very flexible
>>    to reuse
>>    >>> content already on the page and could actually be configurable
>>    if the web
>>    >>> application, if the developer provides an interface for the
>>    user to
>>    >>> configure what is included in the aria-labelledby list of IDREFs.
>>    >>>
>>    >>> Example:
>>    >>>
>>    >>> http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/grid/grid2.php
>>    >>>
>>    >>> Jon
>>    >>>
>>    >>>
>>    >>> ---- Original message ----
>>    >>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:14:02 -0700
>>    >>>> From: Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]
>>    <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>    >>>> Subject: Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!
>>    >>>> To: Jon Gunderson<[hidden email]
>>    <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>    >>>> Cc: [hidden email]
>>    <mailto:[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
>>    <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>    >>>>
>>    >>>>    Let me clarify this, my question is directly towards
>>    >>>>    roles that support title as a way of providing acc
>>    >>>>    name -- getting name from child content or
>>    >>>>    aria-labelledby are different use cases which are
>>    >>>>    not at discussion here. Given the side effect of
>>    >>>>    title to provide a tooltip for mouse hover can there
>>    >>>>    be or should there be an alternate mechanism? Why
>>    >>>>    not have aria-name which can provide the same
>>    >>>>    purpose but without the side effect?
>>    >>>>
>>    >>>>    -- Srinivas
>>    >>>>
>>    >>>>    On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Jon Gunderson
>>    >>>> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>  wrote:
>>    >>>>
>>    >>>>      Srinivas,
>>    >>>>
>>    >>>>      The "option" role will use the DOM subtree text
>>    >>>>      nodes to generate an accessible name for each
>>    >>>>      option.
>>    >>>>      Jon
>>    >>>>
>>    >>>>      ---- Original message ----
>>    >>>> >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:02:41 -0700
>>    >>>> >From: Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]
>>    <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>    >>>> >Subject: Using title for ARIA name is
>>    >>>>      impractical!
>>    >>>> >To: [hidden email]
>>    <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>    >>>> >Cc: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>    >>>> >
>>    >>>> >In my continuing series of ARIA discoveries :)
>>    >>>> >
>>    >>>> >The current recommendation requires the usage of
>>    >>>>      title attribute to provide
>>    >>>> >a name for widgets of the following roles:
>>    >>>>      combobox, grid, group, img, list,
>>    >>>> >listbox, menu, menubar, progressbar, radiogroup,
>>    >>>>      slider, spinbutton,
>>    >>>> >textbox, tree, treegrid.
>>    >>>> >
>>    >>>> >Now imagine a listbox or a tree with lot of
>>    >>>>      visible child elements and that
>>    >>>> >each of these widgets (lisbox and options) are
>>    >>>>      being created using a div.
>>    >>>> >The outerdiv for the listbox having it's role as
>>    >>>>      "listbox" and each of the
>>    >>>> >list items having a role of "option". Now, assume
>>    >>>>      that the listbox has a
>>    >>>> >title defined on it (so it could provide an acc
>>    >>>>      name per current
>>    >>>> >recommendation) like below:
>>    >>>> >
>>    >>>> ><div role="listbox" title="My Own Listbox"
>>    >>>> >aria-activedescendant="listbox1-1">
>>    >>>> > <div role="option" id="listbox1-1"
>>    >>>>      class="selected"
>>    >>>> >aria-selected="true">item 1</div>
>>    >>>> > <div role="option" id="listbox1-2">item
>>    >>>>      2</div>
>>    >>>> > <div role="option" id="listbox1-3">item
>>    >>>>      3</div>
>>    >>>> ></div>
>>    >>>> >
>>    >>>> >At this time you would notice that hovering over
>>    >>>>      with mouse on anywhere over
>>    >>>> >the listbox area (including where the individual
>>    >>>>      items are shown) would show
>>    >>>> >a tooltip with the title. This is coming in as a
>>    >>>>      side effect of browser
>>    >>>> >usage of title for the tooltip. Given this major
>>    >>>>      UI implication, IMO, this
>>    >>>> >makes the usage of title to get an acc name on
>>    >>>>      the roles mentioned highly
>>    >>>> >impractical. I would like to hear other thoughts
>>    >>>>      or ideas. Or if someone
>>    >>>> >knows a way of getting ARIA name without using a
>>    >>>>      title.
>>    >>>> >
>>    >>>> >Thanks,
>>    >>>> >Srinivas
>>    >>>> >
>>    >>>> >--
>>    >>>> >Srinivas Annam
>>    >>>> >Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>    >>>> >Google, Inc.
>>    >>>> >Cell: 408.898.4928
>>    >>>> >Email: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>    >>>> >_______________________________________________
>>    >>>> >dev-accessibility mailing list
>>    >>>> >[hidden email]
>>    <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>    >>>> >https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>>    >>>>      Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>>    >>>>      Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>>    >>>>      Disability Resources and Educational Services
>>    >>>>
>>    >>>>      Rehabilitation Education Center
>>    >>>>      Room 86
>>    >>>>      1207 S. Oak Street
>>    >>>>      Champaign, Illinois 61821
>>    >>>>
>>    >>>>      Voice: (217) 244-5870
>>    >>>>
>>    >>>>      WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>>    >>>>      WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>>    >>>>
>>    >>>>    --
>>    >>>>    Srinivas Annam
>>    >>>>    Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>    >>>>    Google, Inc.
>>    >>>>    Cell: 408.898.4928
>>    >>>>    Email: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>    >>> Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>>    >>> Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>>    >>> Disability Resources and Educational Services
>>    >>>
>>    >>> Rehabilitation Education Center
>>    >>> Room 86
>>    >>> 1207 S. Oak Street
>>    >>> Champaign, Illinois 61821
>>    >>>
>>    >>> Voice: (217) 244-5870
>>    >>>
>>    >>> WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>>    >>> WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>>    >>>
>>    >>>
>>    >>>
>>    >>
>>    >> --
>>    >> Srinivas Annam
>>    >> Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>    >> Google, Inc.
>>    >> Cell: 408.898.4928
>>    >> Email: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>    >>
>>    >
>>    >
>>    >
>>
>>    _______________________________________________
>>    dev-accessibility mailing list
>>    [hidden email]
>>    <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>    https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Srinivas Annam
>> Software Engineer, Accessibility
>> Google, Inc.
>> Cell: 408.898.4928
>> Email: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>
>
>
>


--
Srinivas Annam
Software Engineer, Accessibility
Google, Inc.
Cell: 408.898.4928
Email: [hidden email]
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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Al Gilman
In reply to this post by Srinivas Annam

On 23 Jul 2008, at 12:53 PM, Srinivas Annam wrote:

> Hi Aaron,
>
> On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Aaron Leventhal  
> <[hidden email]
>> wrote:
>
>> Hi Sri,
>>
>> I have the idea, although I had not seen a scenario where you want  
>> the
>> menu text to be different from what's shown visually yet.
>
>
> Not different, but the text is not being shown visually at all in  
> these
> cases. Here are some scenarios -
>
>    1. You have a listbox (visually not titled),

Why?  Why would you do this?

If there is no explicit label for the listbox, is it because of  
information
in the context?

Can't admit this is a use case we should address unless I understand why
there is an unlabeled control on the page.

Can you give examples from the live Web of such a circumstance (that we
wouldn't all rewrite to include a label text)?

> which takes focus on itself
>    and subsequently on it's list items. Provide a title on the  
> listbox which
>    has the outermost div and the option items being inside. The  
> title provided
>    on the listbox bleeds through as I hover over on any of the  
> option items.
>    (see the modified listbox example I sent earlier)
>    2. Have a menu button (with a role of button and haspopup is set to
>    true), the button has it's own text and drop down arrow will  
> show a popup
>    menu and set the focus to popup. Adding a title on the popup  
> menu will
>    introduce a tooltip as I hover over any of the menu items.

if you give it @role="button" then the 'own text' that the button has is
used for the accessible name *in preference to* any @title value,  
already.
So you don't need an @title to give this button an accessible name.  If
'subtree' is acceptable, it takes precedence over @title.

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#nameref

We have a rewrite in process of the 'nameFrom' discussion in the spec
that should make this even clearer.

>    3. Similarly a tree having the outermost div and a title.  
> Hovering on the
>    tree items will show the title as tooltip.

Why is the identification of this tree not visible in the context?  Live
examples, please?

I think that you have an important issue, in terms of destructive  
interference between
the tooltip behavior that the browser will implement with @title and the
action of @aria-labelledby or nameFrom='subtree' under the covers.  
But so far
the leaves should be covered by roles that allow nameFrom='subtree'  
and the
roots should have visible text usable as a label in the context that  
you can
hook with @aria-labelledby.

Using @title to give an element an accessible name can be awkward,  
but when
this is so, there would seem to usually be a better option using  
'subtree'
(where allowed) or @aria-labelledby text.

Al

> When I first encountered the issue I did not see it so much as a  
> bug in the
> browser, but I do want to understand why you think it is. What is the
> expected behavior when you have a title on a div, should the  
> tooltip be
> shown across the entire area that the div is covering or not (since  
> there is
> no title for the child elements)? Would love to hear your thoughts.
>
> -- Srinivas
>
>
>> How common do
>> you think that is? I take your idea seriously but would like to know
>> when/why that happens.  Is it because of the Firefox bug where the
>> hidden descendants are showing up in the name? (Because, if it's  
>> because
>> of a bug I don't think we should add a new feature; we should
>> just fix the bug instead).
>>
>> - Aaron
>>
>> Srinivas Annam wrote:
>>> I would like to provide an additional example in the hopes of  
>>> clarifying.
>>> Take the scenario I would have used title which is also the case  
>>> where I
>>> don't have the text for acc name anywhere else. So by using
>> aria-labelledby
>>> for such case you would have to serve the additional bytes which  
>>> when
>>> multiplied by the number of times used in your application and  
>>> repeated
>> over
>>> millions of downloads it can make a huge difference in application
>>> performance.
>>>
>>> Here I have code snippets for each case -
>>>
>>> *<div class="ofscr" id="stid">*My menu name*</div>*
>>> <div role="menu" *aria-labelledby="stid"*>
>>>    ... items go here
>>> </div>
>>>
>>> vs.
>>>
>>> **<div role="menu" *aria-name="*My menu name*"*>
>>>    ... items go here
>>> </div>
>>>
>>>> From above you can see that there is a difference of 48 bytes  
>>>> per usage,
>> now
>>> multiply that by three. Now, assume that you have 1M page  
>>> servings / day,
>>> you get 144MB of extra bytes to be served, all because I couldn't  
>>> use a
>>> title! :) Hope you get the idea.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Srinivas
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]>
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jon,
>>>>
>>>> My point is aria-labelledby is a good work around but we should not
>>>> *forced* to use it all the time. Additionally, I can not imagine  
>>>> names
>> of
>>>> menus and listboxes lying around in all of today's practical
>> applications.
>>>>
>>>> I think we all agreed that because of the tooltip overload title  
>>>> has
>> become
>>>> unusable, given that I am proposing that we create an alternate and
>>>> equivalent, such as aria-name in its place.
>>>>
>>>> Srinivas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:02 AM, Jon Gunderson<[hidden email]
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Srinivas,
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally I like aria-labelledby by since it is very flexible  
>>>>> to reuse
>>>>> content already on the page and could actually be configurable  
>>>>> if the
>> web
>>>>> application, if the developer provides an interface for the  
>>>>> user to
>>>>> configure what is included in the aria-labelledby list of IDREFs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Example:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/grid/grid2.php
>>>>>
>>>>> Jon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---- Original message ----
>>>>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:14:02 -0700
>>>>>> From: Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!
>>>>>> To: Jon Gunderson<[hidden email]>
>>>>>> Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Let me clarify this, my question is directly towards
>>>>>>    roles that support title as a way of providing acc
>>>>>>    name -- getting name from child content or
>>>>>>    aria-labelledby are different use cases which are
>>>>>>    not at discussion here. Given the side effect of
>>>>>>    title to provide a tooltip for mouse hover can there
>>>>>>    be or should there be an alternate mechanism? Why
>>>>>>    not have aria-name which can provide the same
>>>>>>    purpose but without the side effect?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    -- Srinivas
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Jon Gunderson
>>>>>>    <[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Srinivas,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      The "option" role will use the DOM subtree text
>>>>>>      nodes to generate an accessible name for each
>>>>>>      option.
>>>>>>      Jon
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      ---- Original message ----
>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:02:41 -0700
>>>>>>> From: Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> Subject: Using title for ARIA name is
>>>>>>      impractical!
>>>>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>>>> Cc: [hidden email]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my continuing series of ARIA discoveries :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The current recommendation requires the usage of
>>>>>>      title attribute to provide
>>>>>>> a name for widgets of the following roles:
>>>>>>      combobox, grid, group, img, list,
>>>>>>> listbox, menu, menubar, progressbar, radiogroup,
>>>>>>      slider, spinbutton,
>>>>>>> textbox, tree, treegrid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now imagine a listbox or a tree with lot of
>>>>>>      visible child elements and that
>>>>>>> each of these widgets (lisbox and options) are
>>>>>>      being created using a div.
>>>>>>> The outerdiv for the listbox having it's role as
>>>>>>      "listbox" and each of the
>>>>>>> list items having a role of "option". Now, assume
>>>>>>      that the listbox has a
>>>>>>> title defined on it (so it could provide an acc
>>>>>>      name per current
>>>>>>> recommendation) like below:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <div role="listbox" title="My Own Listbox"
>>>>>>> aria-activedescendant="listbox1-1">
>>>>>>>   <div role="option" id="listbox1-1"
>>>>>>      class="selected"
>>>>>>> aria-selected="true">item 1</div>
>>>>>>>   <div role="option" id="listbox1-2">item
>>>>>>      2</div>
>>>>>>>   <div role="option" id="listbox1-3">item
>>>>>>      3</div>
>>>>>>> </div>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At this time you would notice that hovering over
>>>>>>      with mouse on anywhere over
>>>>>>> the listbox area (including where the individual
>>>>>>      items are shown) would show
>>>>>>> a tooltip with the title. This is coming in as a
>>>>>>      side effect of browser
>>>>>>> usage of title for the tooltip. Given this major
>>>>>>      UI implication, IMO, this
>>>>>>> makes the usage of title to get an acc name on
>>>>>>      the roles mentioned highly
>>>>>>> impractical. I would like to hear other thoughts
>>>>>>      or ideas. Or if someone
>>>>>>> knows a way of getting ARIA name without using a
>>>>>>      title.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Srinivas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Srinivas Annam
>>>>>>> Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>>>>>> Google, Inc.
>>>>>>> Cell: 408.898.4928
>>>>>>> Email: [hidden email]
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>>>>>>      Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>>>>>>      Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>>>>>>      Disability Resources and Educational Services
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Rehabilitation Education Center
>>>>>>      Room 86
>>>>>>      1207 S. Oak Street
>>>>>>      Champaign, Illinois 61821
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Voice: (217) 244-5870
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>>>>>>      WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    --
>>>>>>    Srinivas Annam
>>>>>>    Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>>>>>    Google, Inc.
>>>>>>    Cell: 408.898.4928
>>>>>>    Email: [hidden email]
>>>>> Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>>>>> Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>>>>> Disability Resources and Educational Services
>>>>>
>>>>> Rehabilitation Education Center
>>>>> Room 86
>>>>> 1207 S. Oak Street
>>>>> Champaign, Illinois 61821
>>>>>
>>>>> Voice: (217) 244-5870
>>>>>
>>>>> WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>>>>> WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Srinivas Annam
>>>> Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>>> Google, Inc.
>>>> Cell: 408.898.4928
>>>> Email: [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Srinivas Annam
> Software Engineer, Accessibility
> Google, Inc.
> Cell: 408.898.4928
> Email: [hidden email]
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility

_______________________________________________
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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Srinivas Annam
On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Al Gilman <[hidden email]>wrote:

>
> On 23 Jul 2008, at 12:53 PM, Srinivas Annam wrote:
>
>  Hi Aaron,
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Aaron Leventhal <
>> [hidden email]
>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>
>>  Hi Sri,
>>>
>>> I have the idea, although I had not seen a scenario where you want the
>>> menu text to be different from what's shown visually yet.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Not different, but the text is not being shown visually at all in these
>> cases. Here are some scenarios -
>>
>>   1. You have a listbox (visually not titled),
>>
>
> Why?  Why would you do this?


Because the listbox is part of another complex widget which has a label of
it's own. The outer complex widget has no suitable ARIA role and in fact,
contains more than one ARIA widget.


>
>
> If there is no explicit label for the listbox, is it because of information
> in the context?


Yes.


>
>
> Can't admit this is a use case we should address unless I understand why
> there is an unlabeled control on the page.
>
> Can you give examples from the live Web of such a circumstance (that we
> wouldn't all rewrite to include a label text)?


Yes, in Gmail the Chat widget on the left consists of a contact list which
is part of the Chat widget. Only label that is available here is that of the
complex widget, namely "Chat".


>
>
>  which takes focus on itself
>>   and subsequently on it's list items. Provide a title on the listbox
>> which
>>   has the outermost div and the option items being inside. The title
>> provided
>>   on the listbox bleeds through as I hover over on any of the option
>> items.
>>   (see the modified listbox example I sent earlier)
>>   2. Have a menu button (with a role of button and haspopup is set to
>>   true), the button has it's own text and drop down arrow will show a
>> popup
>>   menu and set the focus to popup. Adding a title on the popup menu will
>>   introduce a tooltip as I hover over any of the menu items.
>>
>
> if you give it @role="button" then the 'own text' that the button has is
> used for the accessible name *in preference to* any @title value, already.
> So you don't need an @title to give this button an accessible name.  If
> 'subtree' is acceptable, it takes precedence over @title.
>
> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#nameref
>
> We have a rewrite in process of the 'nameFrom' discussion in the spec
> that should make this even clearer.
>
>    3. Similarly a tree having the outermost div and a title. Hovering on
>> the
>>   tree items will show the title as tooltip.
>>
>
> Why is the identification of this tree not visible in the context?  Live
> examples, please?


Again, because it's part of a complex widget and doesn't have a visible
title.


>
>
> I think that you have an important issue, in terms of destructive
> interference between
> the tooltip behavior that the browser will implement with @title and the
> action of @aria-labelledby or nameFrom='subtree' under the covers.  But so
> far
> the leaves should be covered by roles that allow nameFrom='subtree' and the
> roots should have visible text usable as a label in the context that you
> can
> hook with @aria-labelledby.
>
> Using @title to give an element an accessible name can be awkward, but when
> this is so, there would seem to usually be a better option using 'subtree'
> (where allowed) or @aria-labelledby text.


Again, we are going back @aria-labelledby as a workaround for the
awkwardsness of @title usage. So, rather than fixing the source of the
problem which is that we are re-using a HTML attribute with an obvious and
unwanted visual side-effect we are arguing why one can't use an available
work around.

I have given my reasons as to how many bytes each aria-labelledby usage will
increase, which I still feel unnecessary and avoidable (by fixing the @title
problem).


>
>
> Al
>
>
>  When I first encountered the issue I did not see it so much as a bug in
>> the
>> browser, but I do want to understand why you think it is. What is the
>> expected behavior when you have a title on a div, should the tooltip be
>> shown across the entire area that the div is covering or not (since there
>> is
>> no title for the child elements)? Would love to hear your thoughts.
>>
>> -- Srinivas
>>
>>
>>  How common do
>>> you think that is? I take your idea seriously but would like to know
>>> when/why that happens.  Is it because of the Firefox bug where the
>>> hidden descendants are showing up in the name? (Because, if it's because
>>> of a bug I don't think we should add a new feature; we should
>>> just fix the bug instead).
>>>
>>> - Aaron
>>>
>>> Srinivas Annam wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would like to provide an additional example in the hopes of
>>>> clarifying.
>>>> Take the scenario I would have used title which is also the case where I
>>>> don't have the text for acc name anywhere else. So by using
>>>>
>>> aria-labelledby
>>>
>>>> for such case you would have to serve the additional bytes which when
>>>> multiplied by the number of times used in your application and repeated
>>>>
>>> over
>>>
>>>> millions of downloads it can make a huge difference in application
>>>> performance.
>>>>
>>>> Here I have code snippets for each case -
>>>>
>>>> *<div class="ofscr" id="stid">*My menu name*</div>*
>>>> <div role="menu" *aria-labelledby="stid"*>
>>>>   ... items go here
>>>> </div>
>>>>
>>>> vs.
>>>>
>>>> **<div role="menu" *aria-name="*My menu name*"*>
>>>>   ... items go here
>>>> </div>
>>>>
>>>>  From above you can see that there is a difference of 48 bytes per
>>>>> usage,
>>>>>
>>>> now
>>>
>>>> multiply that by three. Now, assume that you have 1M page servings /
>>>> day,
>>>> you get 144MB of extra bytes to be served, all because I couldn't use a
>>>> title! :) Hope you get the idea.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Srinivas
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]>
>>>>
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Jon,
>>>>>
>>>>> My point is aria-labelledby is a good work around but we should not
>>>>> *forced* to use it all the time. Additionally, I can not imagine names
>>>>>
>>>> of
>>>
>>>> menus and listboxes lying around in all of today's practical
>>>>>
>>>> applications.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I think we all agreed that because of the tooltip overload title has
>>>>>
>>>> become
>>>
>>>> unusable, given that I am proposing that we create an alternate and
>>>>> equivalent, such as aria-name in its place.
>>>>>
>>>>> Srinivas
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:02 AM, Jon Gunderson<[hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  Srinivas,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personally I like aria-labelledby by since it is very flexible to
>>>>>> reuse
>>>>>> content already on the page and could actually be configurable if the
>>>>>>
>>>>> web
>>>
>>>> application, if the developer provides an interface for the user to
>>>>>> configure what is included in the aria-labelledby list of IDREFs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Example:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/grid/grid2.php
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---- Original message ----
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:14:02 -0700
>>>>>>> From: Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!
>>>>>>> To: Jon Gunderson<[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Let me clarify this, my question is directly towards
>>>>>>>   roles that support title as a way of providing acc
>>>>>>>   name -- getting name from child content or
>>>>>>>   aria-labelledby are different use cases which are
>>>>>>>   not at discussion here. Given the side effect of
>>>>>>>   title to provide a tooltip for mouse hover can there
>>>>>>>   be or should there be an alternate mechanism? Why
>>>>>>>   not have aria-name which can provide the same
>>>>>>>   purpose but without the side effect?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   -- Srinivas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Jon Gunderson
>>>>>>>   <[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Srinivas,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     The "option" role will use the DOM subtree text
>>>>>>>     nodes to generate an accessible name for each
>>>>>>>     option.
>>>>>>>     Jon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     ---- Original message ----
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:02:41 -0700
>>>>>>>> From: Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Using title for ARIA name is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     impractical!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>>>>> Cc: [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In my continuing series of ARIA discoveries :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The current recommendation requires the usage of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     title attribute to provide
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> a name for widgets of the following roles:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     combobox, grid, group, img, list,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> listbox, menu, menubar, progressbar, radiogroup,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     slider, spinbutton,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> textbox, tree, treegrid.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now imagine a listbox or a tree with lot of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     visible child elements and that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> each of these widgets (lisbox and options) are
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     being created using a div.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The outerdiv for the listbox having it's role as
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "listbox" and each of the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> list items having a role of "option". Now, assume
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     that the listbox has a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> title defined on it (so it could provide an acc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     name per current
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> recommendation) like below:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <div role="listbox" title="My Own Listbox"
>>>>>>>> aria-activedescendant="listbox1-1">
>>>>>>>>  <div role="option" id="listbox1-1"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     class="selected"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> aria-selected="true">item 1</div>
>>>>>>>>  <div role="option" id="listbox1-2">item
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     2</div>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  <div role="option" id="listbox1-3">item
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     3</div>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> </div>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At this time you would notice that hovering over
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     with mouse on anywhere over
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the listbox area (including where the individual
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     items are shown) would show
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> a tooltip with the title. This is coming in as a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     side effect of browser
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> usage of title for the tooltip. Given this major
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     UI implication, IMO, this
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> makes the usage of title to get an acc name on
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     the roles mentioned highly
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> impractical. I would like to hear other thoughts
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     or ideas. Or if someone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> knows a way of getting ARIA name without using a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     title.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Srinivas
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Srinivas Annam
>>>>>>>> Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>>>>>>> Google, Inc.
>>>>>>>> Cell: 408.898.4928
>>>>>>>> Email: [hidden email]
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>     Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>>>>>>>     Disability Resources and Educational Services
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Rehabilitation Education Center
>>>>>>>     Room 86
>>>>>>>     1207 S. Oak Street
>>>>>>>     Champaign, Illinois 61821
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Voice: (217) 244-5870
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>>>>>>>     WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   --
>>>>>>>   Srinivas Annam
>>>>>>>   Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>>>>>>   Google, Inc.
>>>>>>>   Cell: 408.898.4928
>>>>>>>   Email: [hidden email]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>>>>>> Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>>>>>> Disability Resources and Educational Services
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rehabilitation Education Center
>>>>>> Room 86
>>>>>> 1207 S. Oak Street
>>>>>> Champaign, Illinois 61821
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Voice: (217) 244-5870
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>>>>>> WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Srinivas Annam
>>>>> Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>>>> Google, Inc.
>>>>> Cell: 408.898.4928
>>>>> Email: [hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Srinivas Annam
>> Software Engineer, Accessibility
>> Google, Inc.
>> Cell: 408.898.4928
>> Email: [hidden email]
>> _______________________________________________
>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>>
>
>


--
Srinivas Annam
Software Engineer, Accessibility
Google, Inc.
Cell: 408.898.4928
Email: [hidden email]
_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Srinivas Annam
In reply to this post by Srinivas Annam
On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 12:15 PM, Sailesh Panchang <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>  I went back to the first email and read the issue had noted:
>
> "At this time you would notice that hovering over with mouse on anywhere
> over the listbox area (including where the individual items are shown) would
> show a tooltip with the title. This is coming in as a side effect of browser
> usage of title for the tooltip. Given this major UI implication, IMO, this
> makes the usage of title to get an acc name on the roles mentioned highly
> impractical. I would like to hear other thoughts or ideas".
>
> Comment:
>
> The title is read  by the screen reader not while arrowing up and down the
> list box items but as one tabs in and out of the list box along with the
> item selected which is ok for a keyboard user.
>
> So my question is : What is impractical about the tool tip being displayed
> as one mouses over the items in a list box?
>
The tooltip is useful when you see it once, but it becomes an annoyance when
it shows up every time you are hovering for some other reason. Going back to
my Gmail example there is a popup that shows as hover over a single contact,
now imagine seeing two things one the hover popup you wanted and the second
is the tooltip. This is clearly a UI nightmare.

Again, one point I am trying to make is why is that an application developer
is being forced to get the side effect of tooltip when the intent is to
provide the aria name.

> The title attribute in HTML on the opening container tag  (even on FORM or
> UL or map) is displayed on all contained items if one mouses over them. This
> is standard behavior in IE and Firefox for a long time and no one has
> objected to this.
>
> (It is another matter that screen readers do not read title on all elements
>  and I have in the past suggested to FS and GWMicro to change this).
>
> I understand the more serious issue for a mouse user is that one has to
> double click to make a selection which is not the convention in a list box.
>
> Sailesh Panchang
> Accessibility Services Manager (Web and Software)
> Deque Systems Inc. (www.deque.com)
> 11130 Sunrise Valley Drive, Suite #140,
> Reston VA 20191
> Phone: 703-225-0380 (ext 105)
> E-mail: [hidden email]
>   ------------------------------
>
> *From:* [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] *On
> Behalf Of *Srinivas Annam
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2008 12:53 PM
> *To:* Aaron Leventhal
> *Cc:* [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> *Subject:* Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!
>
>
>
> Hi Aaron,
>
> On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Aaron Leventhal <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Sri,
>
> I have the idea, although I had not seen a scenario where you want the
> menu text to be different from what's shown visually yet.
>
>
> Not different, but the text is not being shown visually at all in these
> cases. Here are some scenarios -
>
>    1. You have a listbox (visually not titled), which takes focus on
>    itself and subsequently on it's list items. Provide a title on the listbox
>    which has the outermost div and the option items being inside. The title
>    provided on the listbox bleeds through as I hover over on any of the option
>    items. (see the modified listbox example I sent earlier)
>    2. Have a menu button (with a role of button and haspopup is set to
>    true), the button has it's own text and drop down arrow will show a popup
>    menu and set the focus to popup. Adding a title on the popup menu will
>    introduce a tooltip as I hover over any of the menu items.
>    3. Similarly a tree having the outermost div and a title. Hovering on
>    the tree items will show the title as tooltip.
>
> When I first encountered the issue I did not see it so much as a bug in the
> browser, but I do want to understand why you think it is. What is the
> expected behavior when you have a title on a div, should the tooltip be
> shown across the entire area that the div is covering or not (since there is
> no title for the child elements)? Would love to hear your thoughts.
>
> -- Srinivas
>
>
> How common do
> you think that is? I take your idea seriously but would like to know
> when/why that happens.  Is it because of the Firefox bug where the
> hidden descendants are showing up in the name? (Because, if it's because
> of a bug I don't think we should add a new feature; we should
> just fix the bug instead).
>
> - Aaron
>
>
> Srinivas Annam wrote:
> > I would like to provide an additional example in the hopes of clarifying.
> > Take the scenario I would have used title which is also the case where I
> > don't have the text for acc name anywhere else. So by using
> aria-labelledby
> > for such case you would have to serve the additional bytes which when
> > multiplied by the number of times used in your application and repeated
> over
> > millions of downloads it can make a huge difference in application
> > performance.
> >
> > Here I have code snippets for each case -
> >
> > *<div class="ofscr" id="stid">*My menu name*</div>*
> > <div role="menu" *aria-labelledby="stid"*>
> >    ... items go here
> > </div>
> >
> > vs.
> >
> > **<div role="menu" *aria-name="*My menu name*"*>
> >    ... items go here
> > </div>
> >
> >> From above you can see that there is a difference of 48 bytes per usage,
> now
> > multiply that by three. Now, assume that you have 1M page servings / day,
> > you get 144MB of extra bytes to be served, all because I couldn't use a
> > title! :) Hope you get the idea.
> >
> > Thanks,
>
> > Srinivas
>
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]>
>  wrote:
> >
> >> Jon,
> >>
> >> My point is aria-labelledby is a good work around but we should not
> >> *forced* to use it all the time. Additionally, I can not imagine names
> of
> >> menus and listboxes lying around in all of today's practical
> applications.
> >>
> >> I think we all agreed that because of the tooltip overload title has
> become
> >> unusable, given that I am proposing that we create an alternate and
> >> equivalent, such as aria-name in its place.
> >>
> >> Srinivas
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:02 AM, Jon Gunderson<[hidden email]
> >wrote:
> >>
> >>> Srinivas,
> >>>
> >>> Personally I like aria-labelledby by since it is very flexible to reuse
> >>> content already on the page and could actually be configurable if the
> web
> >>> application, if the developer provides an interface for the user to
> >>> configure what is included in the aria-labelledby list of IDREFs.
> >>>
> >>> Example:
> >>>
> >>> http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/grid/grid2.php
> >>>
> >>> Jon
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ---- Original message ----
> >>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:14:02 -0700
> >>>> From: Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]>
> >>>> Subject: Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!
> >>>> To: Jon Gunderson<[hidden email]>
> >>>> Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
> >>>>
> >>>>    Let me clarify this, my question is directly towards
> >>>>    roles that support title as a way of providing acc
> >>>>    name -- getting name from child content or
> >>>>    aria-labelledby are different use cases which are
> >>>>    not at discussion here. Given the side effect of
> >>>>    title to provide a tooltip for mouse hover can there
> >>>>    be or should there be an alternate mechanism? Why
> >>>>    not have aria-name which can provide the same
> >>>>    purpose but without the side effect?
> >>>>
> >>>>    -- Srinivas
> >>>>
> >>>>    On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Jon Gunderson
> >>>>    <[hidden email]>  wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>      Srinivas,
> >>>>
> >>>>      The "option" role will use the DOM subtree text
> >>>>      nodes to generate an accessible name for each
> >>>>      option.
> >>>>      Jon
> >>>>
> >>>>      ---- Original message ----
> >>>>      >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:02:41 -0700
> >>>>      >From: Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]>
> >>>>      >Subject: Using title for ARIA name is
> >>>>      impractical!
> >>>>      >To: [hidden email]
> >>>>      >Cc: [hidden email]
> >>>>      >
> >>>>      >In my continuing series of ARIA discoveries :)
> >>>>      >
> >>>>      >The current recommendation requires the usage of
> >>>>      title attribute to provide
> >>>>      >a name for widgets of the following roles:
> >>>>      combobox, grid, group, img, list,
> >>>>      >listbox, menu, menubar, progressbar, radiogroup,
> >>>>      slider, spinbutton,
> >>>>      >textbox, tree, treegrid.
> >>>>      >
> >>>>      >Now imagine a listbox or a tree with lot of
> >>>>      visible child elements and that
> >>>>      >each of these widgets (lisbox and options) are
> >>>>      being created using a div.
> >>>>      >The outerdiv for the listbox having it's role as
> >>>>      "listbox" and each of the
> >>>>      >list items having a role of "option". Now, assume
> >>>>      that the listbox has a
> >>>>      >title defined on it (so it could provide an acc
> >>>>      name per current
> >>>>      >recommendation) like below:
> >>>>      >
> >>>>      ><div role="listbox" title="My Own Listbox"
> >>>>      >aria-activedescendant="listbox1-1">
> >>>>      >   <div role="option" id="listbox1-1"
> >>>>      class="selected"
> >>>>      >aria-selected="true">item 1</div>
> >>>>      >   <div role="option" id="listbox1-2">item
> >>>>      2</div>
> >>>>      >   <div role="option" id="listbox1-3">item
> >>>>      3</div>
> >>>>      ></div>
> >>>>      >
> >>>>      >At this time you would notice that hovering over
> >>>>      with mouse on anywhere over
> >>>>      >the listbox area (including where the individual
> >>>>      items are shown) would show
> >>>>      >a tooltip with the title. This is coming in as a
> >>>>      side effect of browser
> >>>>      >usage of title for the tooltip. Given this major
> >>>>      UI implication, IMO, this
> >>>>      >makes the usage of title to get an acc name on
> >>>>      the roles mentioned highly
> >>>>      >impractical. I would like to hear other thoughts
> >>>>      or ideas. Or if someone
> >>>>      >knows a way of getting ARIA name without using a
> >>>>      title.
> >>>>      >
> >>>>      >Thanks,
> >>>>      >Srinivas
> >>>>      >
> >>>>      >--
> >>>>      >Srinivas Annam
> >>>>      >Software Engineer, Accessibility
> >>>>      >Google, Inc.
> >>>>      >Cell: 408.898.4928
> >>>>      >Email: [hidden email]
> >>>>      >_______________________________________________
> >>>>      >dev-accessibility mailing list
> >>>>      >[hidden email]
> >>>>      >https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
> >>>>      Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
> >>>>      Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
> >>>>      Disability Resources and Educational Services
> >>>>
> >>>>      Rehabilitation Education Center
> >>>>      Room 86
> >>>>      1207 S. Oak Street
> >>>>      Champaign, Illinois 61821
> >>>>
> >>>>      Voice: (217) 244-5870
> >>>>
> >>>>      WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
> >>>>      WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
> >>>>
> >>>>    --
> >>>>    Srinivas Annam
> >>>>    Software Engineer, Accessibility
> >>>>    Google, Inc.
> >>>>    Cell: 408.898.4928
> >>>>    Email: [hidden email]
> >>> Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
> >>> Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
> >>> Disability Resources and Educational Services
> >>>
> >>> Rehabilitation Education Center
> >>> Room 86
> >>> 1207 S. Oak Street
> >>> Champaign, Illinois 61821
> >>>
> >>> Voice: (217) 244-5870
> >>>
> >>> WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
> >>> WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Srinivas Annam
> >> Software Engineer, Accessibility
> >> Google, Inc.
> >> Cell: 408.898.4928
> >> Email: [hidden email]
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>
>
>
>
> --
> Srinivas Annam
> Software Engineer, Accessibility
> Google, Inc.
> Cell: 408.898.4928
> Email: [hidden email]
>



--
Srinivas Annam
Software Engineer, Accessibility
Google, Inc.
Cell: 408.898.4928
Email: [hidden email]
_______________________________________________
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https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Aaron Leventhal-3
In reply to this post by Srinivas Annam
Personally I'm wavering back and forth on this one.

Pro:
I can see Sri's point. As a developer, if I'm writing a chat app, I
might like the screen reader users to get a nice name for the listbox.
It just makes the experience smoother.

Con:
OTOH this is one more thing to localize, so I personally might avoid it.
In fact that makes me ask, why do screen reader users even need a name
for something if sighted people don't have one? To me the use case of
showing something to one set of users and not another is not so major.
If sighted users are figuring it out from context then why not screen
reader users? (There may very well be an answer for that, I just don't
know it as I'm not a screen reader user myself).

Also, adding aria-name does make the accessible name processing
algorithm slightly more complicated.

- Aaron

Srinivas Annam wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 12:15 PM, Sailesh Panchang<
> [hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>>   I went back to the first email and read the issue had noted:
>>
>> "At this time you would notice that hovering over with mouse on anywhere
>> over the listbox area (including where the individual items are shown) would
>> show a tooltip with the title. This is coming in as a side effect of browser
>> usage of title for the tooltip. Given this major UI implication, IMO, this
>> makes the usage of title to get an acc name on the roles mentioned highly
>> impractical. I would like to hear other thoughts or ideas".
>>
>> Comment:
>>
>> The title is read  by the screen reader not while arrowing up and down the
>> list box items but as one tabs in and out of the list box along with the
>> item selected which is ok for a keyboard user.
>>
>> So my question is : What is impractical about the tool tip being displayed
>> as one mouses over the items in a list box?
>>
> The tooltip is useful when you see it once, but it becomes an annoyance when
> it shows up every time you are hovering for some other reason. Going back to
> my Gmail example there is a popup that shows as hover over a single contact,
> now imagine seeing two things one the hover popup you wanted and the second
> is the tooltip. This is clearly a UI nightmare.
>
> Again, one point I am trying to make is why is that an application developer
> is being forced to get the side effect of tooltip when the intent is to
> provide the aria name.
>
>> The title attribute in HTML on the opening container tag  (even on FORM or
>> UL or map) is displayed on all contained items if one mouses over them. This
>> is standard behavior in IE and Firefox for a long time and no one has
>> objected to this.
>>
>> (It is another matter that screen readers do not read title on all elements
>>   and I have in the past suggested to FS and GWMicro to change this).
>>
>> I understand the more serious issue for a mouse user is that one has to
>> double click to make a selection which is not the convention in a list box.
>>
>> Sailesh Panchang
>> Accessibility Services Manager (Web and Software)
>> Deque Systems Inc. (www.deque.com)
>> 11130 Sunrise Valley Drive, Suite #140,
>> Reston VA 20191
>> Phone: 703-225-0380 (ext 105)
>> E-mail: [hidden email]
>>    ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] *On
>> Behalf Of *Srinivas Annam
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2008 12:53 PM
>> *To:* Aaron Leventhal
>> *Cc:* [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>> *Subject:* Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Aaron,
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Aaron Leventhal<
>> [hidden email]>  wrote:
>>
>> Hi Sri,
>>
>> I have the idea, although I had not seen a scenario where you want the
>> menu text to be different from what's shown visually yet.
>>
>>
>> Not different, but the text is not being shown visually at all in these
>> cases. Here are some scenarios -
>>
>>     1. You have a listbox (visually not titled), which takes focus on
>>     itself and subsequently on it's list items. Provide a title on the listbox
>>     which has the outermost div and the option items being inside. The title
>>     provided on the listbox bleeds through as I hover over on any of the option
>>     items. (see the modified listbox example I sent earlier)
>>     2. Have a menu button (with a role of button and haspopup is set to
>>     true), the button has it's own text and drop down arrow will show a popup
>>     menu and set the focus to popup. Adding a title on the popup menu will
>>     introduce a tooltip as I hover over any of the menu items.
>>     3. Similarly a tree having the outermost div and a title. Hovering on
>>     the tree items will show the title as tooltip.
>>
>> When I first encountered the issue I did not see it so much as a bug in the
>> browser, but I do want to understand why you think it is. What is the
>> expected behavior when you have a title on a div, should the tooltip be
>> shown across the entire area that the div is covering or not (since there is
>> no title for the child elements)? Would love to hear your thoughts.
>>
>> -- Srinivas
>>
>>
>> How common do
>> you think that is? I take your idea seriously but would like to know
>> when/why that happens.  Is it because of the Firefox bug where the
>> hidden descendants are showing up in the name? (Because, if it's because
>> of a bug I don't think we should add a new feature; we should
>> just fix the bug instead).
>>
>> - Aaron
>>
>>
>> Srinivas Annam wrote:
>>> I would like to provide an additional example in the hopes of clarifying.
>>> Take the scenario I would have used title which is also the case where I
>>> don't have the text for acc name anywhere else. So by using
>> aria-labelledby
>>> for such case you would have to serve the additional bytes which when
>>> multiplied by the number of times used in your application and repeated
>> over
>>> millions of downloads it can make a huge difference in application
>>> performance.
>>>
>>> Here I have code snippets for each case -
>>>
>>> *<div class="ofscr" id="stid">*My menu name*</div>*
>>> <div role="menu" *aria-labelledby="stid"*>
>>>     ... items go here
>>> </div>
>>>
>>> vs.
>>>
>>> **<div role="menu" *aria-name="*My menu name*"*>
>>>     ... items go here
>>> </div>
>>>
>>>>  From above you can see that there is a difference of 48 bytes per usage,
>> now
>>> multiply that by three. Now, assume that you have 1M page servings / day,
>>> you get 144MB of extra bytes to be served, all because I couldn't use a
>>> title! :) Hope you get the idea.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Srinivas
>>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]>
>>   wrote:
>>>> Jon,
>>>>
>>>> My point is aria-labelledby is a good work around but we should not
>>>> *forced* to use it all the time. Additionally, I can not imagine names
>> of
>>>> menus and listboxes lying around in all of today's practical
>> applications.
>>>> I think we all agreed that because of the tooltip overload title has
>> become
>>>> unusable, given that I am proposing that we create an alternate and
>>>> equivalent, such as aria-name in its place.
>>>>
>>>> Srinivas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:02 AM, Jon Gunderson<[hidden email]
>>> wrote:
>>>>> Srinivas,
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally I like aria-labelledby by since it is very flexible to reuse
>>>>> content already on the page and could actually be configurable if the
>> web
>>>>> application, if the developer provides an interface for the user to
>>>>> configure what is included in the aria-labelledby list of IDREFs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Example:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/grid/grid2.php
>>>>>
>>>>> Jon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---- Original message ----
>>>>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:14:02 -0700
>>>>>> From: Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!
>>>>>> To: Jon Gunderson<[hidden email]>
>>>>>> Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Let me clarify this, my question is directly towards
>>>>>>     roles that support title as a way of providing acc
>>>>>>     name -- getting name from child content or
>>>>>>     aria-labelledby are different use cases which are
>>>>>>     not at discussion here. Given the side effect of
>>>>>>     title to provide a tooltip for mouse hover can there
>>>>>>     be or should there be an alternate mechanism? Why
>>>>>>     not have aria-name which can provide the same
>>>>>>     purpose but without the side effect?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     -- Srinivas
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Jon Gunderson
>>>>>>     <[hidden email]>   wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       Srinivas,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       The "option" role will use the DOM subtree text
>>>>>>       nodes to generate an accessible name for each
>>>>>>       option.
>>>>>>       Jon
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       ---- Original message ----
>>>>>>       >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:02:41 -0700
>>>>>>       >From: Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]>
>>>>>>       >Subject: Using title for ARIA name is
>>>>>>       impractical!
>>>>>>       >To: [hidden email]
>>>>>>       >Cc: [hidden email]
>>>>>>       >
>>>>>>       >In my continuing series of ARIA discoveries :)
>>>>>>       >
>>>>>>       >The current recommendation requires the usage of
>>>>>>       title attribute to provide
>>>>>>       >a name for widgets of the following roles:
>>>>>>       combobox, grid, group, img, list,
>>>>>>       >listbox, menu, menubar, progressbar, radiogroup,
>>>>>>       slider, spinbutton,
>>>>>>       >textbox, tree, treegrid.
>>>>>>       >
>>>>>>       >Now imagine a listbox or a tree with lot of
>>>>>>       visible child elements and that
>>>>>>       >each of these widgets (lisbox and options) are
>>>>>>       being created using a div.
>>>>>>       >The outerdiv for the listbox having it's role as
>>>>>>       "listbox" and each of the
>>>>>>       >list items having a role of "option". Now, assume
>>>>>>       that the listbox has a
>>>>>>       >title defined on it (so it could provide an acc
>>>>>>       name per current
>>>>>>       >recommendation) like below:
>>>>>>       >
>>>>>>       ><div role="listbox" title="My Own Listbox"
>>>>>>       >aria-activedescendant="listbox1-1">
>>>>>>       >    <div role="option" id="listbox1-1"
>>>>>>       class="selected"
>>>>>>       >aria-selected="true">item 1</div>
>>>>>>       >    <div role="option" id="listbox1-2">item
>>>>>>       2</div>
>>>>>>       >    <div role="option" id="listbox1-3">item
>>>>>>       3</div>
>>>>>>       ></div>
>>>>>>       >
>>>>>>       >At this time you would notice that hovering over
>>>>>>       with mouse on anywhere over
>>>>>>       >the listbox area (including where the individual
>>>>>>       items are shown) would show
>>>>>>       >a tooltip with the title. This is coming in as a
>>>>>>       side effect of browser
>>>>>>       >usage of title for the tooltip. Given this major
>>>>>>       UI implication, IMO, this
>>>>>>       >makes the usage of title to get an acc name on
>>>>>>       the roles mentioned highly
>>>>>>       >impractical. I would like to hear other thoughts
>>>>>>       or ideas. Or if someone
>>>>>>       >knows a way of getting ARIA name without using a
>>>>>>       title.
>>>>>>       >
>>>>>>       >Thanks,
>>>>>>       >Srinivas
>>>>>>       >
>>>>>>       >--
>>>>>>       >Srinivas Annam
>>>>>>       >Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>>>>>       >Google, Inc.
>>>>>>       >Cell: 408.898.4928
>>>>>>       >Email: [hidden email]
>>>>>>       >_______________________________________________
>>>>>>       >dev-accessibility mailing list
>>>>>>       >[hidden email]
>>>>>>       >https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>>>>>>       Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>>>>>>       Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>>>>>>       Disability Resources and Educational Services
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       Rehabilitation Education Center
>>>>>>       Room 86
>>>>>>       1207 S. Oak Street
>>>>>>       Champaign, Illinois 61821
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       Voice: (217) 244-5870
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>>>>>>       WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     --
>>>>>>     Srinivas Annam
>>>>>>     Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>>>>>     Google, Inc.
>>>>>>     Cell: 408.898.4928
>>>>>>     Email: [hidden email]
>>>>> Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>>>>> Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>>>>> Disability Resources and Educational Services
>>>>>
>>>>> Rehabilitation Education Center
>>>>> Room 86
>>>>> 1207 S. Oak Street
>>>>> Champaign, Illinois 61821
>>>>>
>>>>> Voice: (217) 244-5870
>>>>>
>>>>> WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>>>>> WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Srinivas Annam
>>>> Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>>> Google, Inc.
>>>> Cell: 408.898.4928
>>>> Email: [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Srinivas Annam
>> Software Engineer, Accessibility
>> Google, Inc.
>> Cell: 408.898.4928
>> Email: [hidden email]
>>
>
>
>

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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

mozilla accessibility
In reply to this post by Srinivas Annam
Aaron asked:
>In fact that makes me ask, why do screen reader users even need a name
>for something if sighted people don't have one? To me the use case of
>showing something to one set of users and not another is not so major.
>If sighted users are figuring it out from context then why not screen
>reader users? (There may very well be an answer for that, I just don't
>know it as I'm not a screen reader user myself).


Discovering something from context is easy when you can see more than just
one thing at a time (i.e. your sighted and the page is sitting there before
you). When your using a screen reader:
* the content is presented one item at a time
* to discover more content, you need to manipulate the keyboard
+ a sighted person needs to move their eyes, but that generally takes less
time and is more "automatic" than messing with the keyboard (says the blind
guy who doesn't know squat about the experience of sight)
* in some sense, the content only exists while the synthesizer is speaking
+ if your using braille, then the experience is more akin to a sighted
person's experience, but still much more limited in scope

Just my 2 cents.
-- Rich


"Aaron Leventhal" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:[hidden email]...

> Personally I'm wavering back and forth on this one.
>
> Pro:
> I can see Sri's point. As a developer, if I'm writing a chat app, I
> might like the screen reader users to get a nice name for the listbox.
> It just makes the experience smoother.
>
> Con:
> OTOH this is one more thing to localize, so I personally might avoid it.
> In fact that makes me ask, why do screen reader users even need a name
> for something if sighted people don't have one? To me the use case of
> showing something to one set of users and not another is not so major.
> If sighted users are figuring it out from context then why not screen
> reader users? (There may very well be an answer for that, I just don't
> know it as I'm not a screen reader user myself).
>
> Also, adding aria-name does make the accessible name processing
> algorithm slightly more complicated.
>
> - Aaron
>
> Srinivas Annam wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 12:15 PM, Sailesh Panchang<
>> [hidden email]>  wrote:
>>
>>>   I went back to the first email and read the issue had noted:
>>>
>>> "At this time you would notice that hovering over with mouse on anywhere
>>> over the listbox area (including where the individual items are shown)
>>> would
>>> show a tooltip with the title. This is coming in as a side effect of
>>> browser
>>> usage of title for the tooltip. Given this major UI implication, IMO,
>>> this
>>> makes the usage of title to get an acc name on the roles mentioned
>>> highly
>>> impractical. I would like to hear other thoughts or ideas".
>>>
>>> Comment:
>>>
>>> The title is read  by the screen reader not while arrowing up and down
>>> the
>>> list box items but as one tabs in and out of the list box along with the
>>> item selected which is ok for a keyboard user.
>>>
>>> So my question is : What is impractical about the tool tip being
>>> displayed
>>> as one mouses over the items in a list box?
>>>
>> The tooltip is useful when you see it once, but it becomes an annoyance
>> when
>> it shows up every time you are hovering for some other reason. Going back
>> to
>> my Gmail example there is a popup that shows as hover over a single
>> contact,
>> now imagine seeing two things one the hover popup you wanted and the
>> second
>> is the tooltip. This is clearly a UI nightmare.
>>
>> Again, one point I am trying to make is why is that an application
>> developer
>> is being forced to get the side effect of tooltip when the intent is to
>> provide the aria name.
>>
>>> The title attribute in HTML on the opening container tag  (even on FORM
>>> or
>>> UL or map) is displayed on all contained items if one mouses over them.
>>> This
>>> is standard behavior in IE and Firefox for a long time and no one has
>>> objected to this.
>>>
>>> (It is another matter that screen readers do not read title on all
>>> elements
>>>   and I have in the past suggested to FS and GWMicro to change this).
>>>
>>> I understand the more serious issue for a mouse user is that one has to
>>> double click to make a selection which is not the convention in a list
>>> box.
>>>
>>> Sailesh Panchang
>>> Accessibility Services Manager (Web and Software)
>>> Deque Systems Inc. (www.deque.com)
>>> 11130 Sunrise Valley Drive, Suite #140,
>>> Reston VA 20191
>>> Phone: 703-225-0380 (ext 105)
>>> E-mail: [hidden email]
>>>    ------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:* [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] *On
>>> Behalf Of *Srinivas Annam
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2008 12:53 PM
>>> *To:* Aaron Leventhal
>>> *Cc:* [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>>> *Subject:* Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Aaron,
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Aaron Leventhal<
>>> [hidden email]>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Sri,
>>>
>>> I have the idea, although I had not seen a scenario where you want the
>>> menu text to be different from what's shown visually yet.
>>>
>>>
>>> Not different, but the text is not being shown visually at all in these
>>> cases. Here are some scenarios -
>>>
>>>     1. You have a listbox (visually not titled), which takes focus on
>>>     itself and subsequently on it's list items. Provide a title on the
>>> listbox
>>>     which has the outermost div and the option items being inside. The
>>> title
>>>     provided on the listbox bleeds through as I hover over on any of the
>>> option
>>>     items. (see the modified listbox example I sent earlier)
>>>     2. Have a menu button (with a role of button and haspopup is set to
>>>     true), the button has it's own text and drop down arrow will show a
>>> popup
>>>     menu and set the focus to popup. Adding a title on the popup menu
>>> will
>>>     introduce a tooltip as I hover over any of the menu items.
>>>     3. Similarly a tree having the outermost div and a title. Hovering
>>> on
>>>     the tree items will show the title as tooltip.
>>>
>>> When I first encountered the issue I did not see it so much as a bug in
>>> the
>>> browser, but I do want to understand why you think it is. What is the
>>> expected behavior when you have a title on a div, should the tooltip be
>>> shown across the entire area that the div is covering or not (since
>>> there is
>>> no title for the child elements)? Would love to hear your thoughts.
>>>
>>> -- Srinivas
>>>
>>>
>>> How common do
>>> you think that is? I take your idea seriously but would like to know
>>> when/why that happens.  Is it because of the Firefox bug where the
>>> hidden descendants are showing up in the name? (Because, if it's because
>>> of a bug I don't think we should add a new feature; we should
>>> just fix the bug instead).
>>>
>>> - Aaron
>>>
>>>
>>> Srinivas Annam wrote:
>>>> I would like to provide an additional example in the hopes of
>>>> clarifying.
>>>> Take the scenario I would have used title which is also the case where
>>>> I
>>>> don't have the text for acc name anywhere else. So by using
>>> aria-labelledby
>>>> for such case you would have to serve the additional bytes which when
>>>> multiplied by the number of times used in your application and repeated
>>> over
>>>> millions of downloads it can make a huge difference in application
>>>> performance.
>>>>
>>>> Here I have code snippets for each case -
>>>>
>>>> *<div class="ofscr" id="stid">*My menu name*</div>*
>>>> <div role="menu" *aria-labelledby="stid"*>
>>>>     ... items go here
>>>> </div>
>>>>
>>>> vs.
>>>>
>>>> **<div role="menu" *aria-name="*My menu name*"*>
>>>>     ... items go here
>>>> </div>
>>>>
>>>>>  From above you can see that there is a difference of 48 bytes per
>>>>> usage,
>>> now
>>>> multiply that by three. Now, assume that you have 1M page servings /
>>>> day,
>>>> you get 144MB of extra bytes to be served, all because I couldn't use a
>>>> title! :) Hope you get the idea.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Srinivas
>>>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]>
>>>   wrote:
>>>>> Jon,
>>>>>
>>>>> My point is aria-labelledby is a good work around but we should not
>>>>> *forced* to use it all the time. Additionally, I can not imagine names
>>> of
>>>>> menus and listboxes lying around in all of today's practical
>>> applications.
>>>>> I think we all agreed that because of the tooltip overload title has
>>> become
>>>>> unusable, given that I am proposing that we create an alternate and
>>>>> equivalent, such as aria-name in its place.
>>>>>
>>>>> Srinivas
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:02 AM, Jon Gunderson<[hidden email]
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Srinivas,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personally I like aria-labelledby by since it is very flexible to
>>>>>> reuse
>>>>>> content already on the page and could actually be configurable if the
>>> web
>>>>>> application, if the developer provides an interface for the user to
>>>>>> configure what is included in the aria-labelledby list of IDREFs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Example:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/grid/grid2.php
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---- Original message ----
>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:14:02 -0700
>>>>>>> From: Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!
>>>>>>> To: Jon Gunderson<[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Let me clarify this, my question is directly towards
>>>>>>>     roles that support title as a way of providing acc
>>>>>>>     name -- getting name from child content or
>>>>>>>     aria-labelledby are different use cases which are
>>>>>>>     not at discussion here. Given the side effect of
>>>>>>>     title to provide a tooltip for mouse hover can there
>>>>>>>     be or should there be an alternate mechanism? Why
>>>>>>>     not have aria-name which can provide the same
>>>>>>>     purpose but without the side effect?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     -- Srinivas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Jon Gunderson
>>>>>>>     <[hidden email]>   wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       Srinivas,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       The "option" role will use the DOM subtree text
>>>>>>>       nodes to generate an accessible name for each
>>>>>>>       option.
>>>>>>>       Jon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       ---- Original message ----
>>>>>>>       >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:02:41 -0700
>>>>>>>       >From: Srinivas Annam<[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>       >Subject: Using title for ARIA name is
>>>>>>>       impractical!
>>>>>>>       >To: [hidden email]
>>>>>>>       >Cc: [hidden email]
>>>>>>>       >
>>>>>>>       >In my continuing series of ARIA discoveries :)
>>>>>>>       >
>>>>>>>       >The current recommendation requires the usage of
>>>>>>>       title attribute to provide
>>>>>>>       >a name for widgets of the following roles:
>>>>>>>       combobox, grid, group, img, list,
>>>>>>>       >listbox, menu, menubar, progressbar, radiogroup,
>>>>>>>       slider, spinbutton,
>>>>>>>       >textbox, tree, treegrid.
>>>>>>>       >
>>>>>>>       >Now imagine a listbox or a tree with lot of
>>>>>>>       visible child elements and that
>>>>>>>       >each of these widgets (lisbox and options) are
>>>>>>>       being created using a div.
>>>>>>>       >The outerdiv for the listbox having it's role as
>>>>>>>       "listbox" and each of the
>>>>>>>       >list items having a role of "option". Now, assume
>>>>>>>       that the listbox has a
>>>>>>>       >title defined on it (so it could provide an acc
>>>>>>>       name per current
>>>>>>>       >recommendation) like below:
>>>>>>>       >
>>>>>>>       ><div role="listbox" title="My Own Listbox"
>>>>>>>       >aria-activedescendant="listbox1-1">
>>>>>>>       >    <div role="option" id="listbox1-1"
>>>>>>>       class="selected"
>>>>>>>       >aria-selected="true">item 1</div>
>>>>>>>       >    <div role="option" id="listbox1-2">item
>>>>>>>       2</div>
>>>>>>>       >    <div role="option" id="listbox1-3">item
>>>>>>>       3</div>
>>>>>>>       ></div>
>>>>>>>       >
>>>>>>>       >At this time you would notice that hovering over
>>>>>>>       with mouse on anywhere over
>>>>>>>       >the listbox area (including where the individual
>>>>>>>       items are shown) would show
>>>>>>>       >a tooltip with the title. This is coming in as a
>>>>>>>       side effect of browser
>>>>>>>       >usage of title for the tooltip. Given this major
>>>>>>>       UI implication, IMO, this
>>>>>>>       >makes the usage of title to get an acc name on
>>>>>>>       the roles mentioned highly
>>>>>>>       >impractical. I would like to hear other thoughts
>>>>>>>       or ideas. Or if someone
>>>>>>>       >knows a way of getting ARIA name without using a
>>>>>>>       title.
>>>>>>>       >
>>>>>>>       >Thanks,
>>>>>>>       >Srinivas
>>>>>>>       >
>>>>>>>       >--
>>>>>>>       >Srinivas Annam
>>>>>>>       >Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>>>>>>       >Google, Inc.
>>>>>>>       >Cell: 408.898.4928
>>>>>>>       >Email: [hidden email]
>>>>>>>       >_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>       >dev-accessibility mailing list
>>>>>>>       >[hidden email]
>>>>>>>       >https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>>>>>>>       Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>       Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>>>>>>>       Disability Resources and Educational Services
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       Rehabilitation Education Center
>>>>>>>       Room 86
>>>>>>>       1207 S. Oak Street
>>>>>>>       Champaign, Illinois 61821
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       Voice: (217) 244-5870
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>>>>>>>       WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     --
>>>>>>>     Srinivas Annam
>>>>>>>     Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>>>>>>     Google, Inc.
>>>>>>>     Cell: 408.898.4928
>>>>>>>     Email: [hidden email]
>>>>>> Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>>>>>> Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>>>>>> Disability Resources and Educational Services
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rehabilitation Education Center
>>>>>> Room 86
>>>>>> 1207 S. Oak Street
>>>>>> Champaign, Illinois 61821
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Voice: (217) 244-5870
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>>>>>> WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Srinivas Annam
>>>>> Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>>>> Google, Inc.
>>>>> Cell: 408.898.4928
>>>>> Email: [hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Srinivas Annam
>>> Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>> Google, Inc.
>>> Cell: 408.898.4928
>>> Email: [hidden email]
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>

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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Tom Brunet
In reply to this post by Srinivas Annam
>> In fact that makes me ask, why do screen reader users even need a name
>> for something if sighted people don't have one?

Given Rich's response, let me rephrase Aaron's question.  If a name is
useful to screen reader users, why wouldn't it be useful to sighted users?

There are few things that I can justify as keeping hidden from sighted
users:
* Alt text: It is sometimes visible (if the image hasn't loaded / broken
link).  In fact, I've found that a good way to see if alt text is
sensible is to disable images in Firefox.
* Skip links: I have seen arguments that skip links are equally
important to keyboard-only users, and therefore should be visible.  One
technique that we use is to hide this text, but use CSS to show it when
it gains focus.

Is there any common situation where text that should be delivered _only_
to screen reader users?
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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Willie Walker
 > Is there any common situation where text that should be delivered
_only_ to screen reader users?

It's not a common situation, but T.V. Raman and Charles Chen were
showing me some of their experimental stuff at CSUN that was doing focus
blurs and making 0-sized objects with names on them strictly for the
purposes of fooling a screen reader into speaking something.  The result
was that a screen reader could be fooled into reading something, but I
believe the interface ended up being inaccessible to keyboard-only users.

Mind you, this was experimental.  In Raman's words, he was peeing into
the cesspool of hacks.  I agreed.  I think we'd rather try to solve
problems rather than add to the list.

Will

Thomas Brunet wrote:

>>> In fact that makes me ask, why do screen reader users even need a name
>>> for something if sighted people don't have one?
>
> Given Rich's response, let me rephrase Aaron's question.  If a name is
> useful to screen reader users, why wouldn't it be useful to sighted users?
>
> There are few things that I can justify as keeping hidden from sighted
> users:
> * Alt text: It is sometimes visible (if the image hasn't loaded / broken
> link).  In fact, I've found that a good way to see if alt text is
> sensible is to disable images in Firefox.
> * Skip links: I have seen arguments that skip links are equally
> important to keyboard-only users, and therefore should be visible.  One
> technique that we use is to hide this text, but use CSS to show it when
> it gains focus.
>
> Is there any common situation where text that should be delivered _only_
> to screen reader users?
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility

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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Bryan Garaventa-2
Yes, there are practical uses for hidden text for screen reader users.

We come across this issue a lot with our clients, especially when dealing
with dynamic content driven web apps.

This is often the case for visual components, such as simulated tab
controls, inline menus, simulated dialogs, and various visually oriented web
page components that are easy to understand when looking at them, but can be
very unclear from a textual standpoint. This also comes into play regarding
screen real estate, where many companies do not want an inordinate amount of
textual information if a visual component will do the trick and save
valuable space.

As an example of this, on HP.com, near the logo, there is some text that
tells users what number to call for additional service. This is "Buy online
or Call 800-BUY-MYHP"

Well, being blind myself, it is difficult for blind users to dial letters on
telephones. We conveyed this to HP, but reasonably enough, they thought that
adding a second numerical telephone number would be redundant information
for sighted users. Instead, they added the following hidden text for screen
reader users: "(800-289-6947)" Which appears directly after the first text
string like so within a screen reader: "Buy online or Call 800-BUY-MYHP
(800-289-6947)"

Hidden text can be very valuable in many situations.

All the best,

Bryan


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bryan Garaventa
Senior Accessibility Engineer
SSB + BART Group
[hidden email]
www.SSBBartGroup.com
Accessibility-On-Demand


----- Original Message -----
From: "Willie Walker" <[hidden email]>
To: "Thomas Brunet" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!


> > Is there any common situation where text that should be delivered
> _only_ to screen reader users?
>
> It's not a common situation, but T.V. Raman and Charles Chen were
> showing me some of their experimental stuff at CSUN that was doing focus
> blurs and making 0-sized objects with names on them strictly for the
> purposes of fooling a screen reader into speaking something.  The result
> was that a screen reader could be fooled into reading something, but I
> believe the interface ended up being inaccessible to keyboard-only users.
>
> Mind you, this was experimental.  In Raman's words, he was peeing into
> the cesspool of hacks.  I agreed.  I think we'd rather try to solve
> problems rather than add to the list.
>
> Will
>
> Thomas Brunet wrote:
>>>> In fact that makes me ask, why do screen reader users even need a name
>>>> for something if sighted people don't have one?
>>
>> Given Rich's response, let me rephrase Aaron's question.  If a name is
>> useful to screen reader users, why wouldn't it be useful to sighted
>> users?
>>
>> There are few things that I can justify as keeping hidden from sighted
>> users:
>> * Alt text: It is sometimes visible (if the image hasn't loaded / broken
>> link).  In fact, I've found that a good way to see if alt text is
>> sensible is to disable images in Firefox.
>> * Skip links: I have seen arguments that skip links are equally
>> important to keyboard-only users, and therefore should be visible.  One
>> technique that we use is to hide this text, but use CSS to show it when
>> it gains focus.
>>
>> Is there any common situation where text that should be delivered _only_
>> to screen reader users?
>> _______________________________________________
>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility 

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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Tom Brunet
In reply to this post by Willie Walker
Believe it or not, not all phones have letters on them.  I cannot make
these calls on my cell (a Treo) or via my VOIP program until I find a
regular phone to look up the mapping.  In other words, the numerical
version is also valuable for sighted users.

The other issues you mention, tabs, dialogs, etc, seem like semantic
information rather that actual information.  I believe this semantic
information is what ARIA is trying to address.  Ideally, none of this
should be a hard-coded string that the user hears.  The markup indicates
the widget type, and the screen reader should describe the widget based
on the user's preferences, locale, etc.

Bryan Garaventa wrote:

> Yes, there are practical uses for hidden text for screen reader users.
>
> We come across this issue a lot with our clients, especially when
> dealing with dynamic content driven web apps.
>
> This is often the case for visual components, such as simulated tab
> controls, inline menus, simulated dialogs, and various visually oriented
> web page components that are easy to understand when looking at them,
> but can be very unclear from a textual standpoint. This also comes into
> play regarding screen real estate, where many companies do not want an
> inordinate amount of textual information if a visual component will do
> the trick and save valuable space.
>
> As an example of this, on HP.com, near the logo, there is some text that
> tells users what number to call for additional service. This is "Buy
> online or Call 800-BUY-MYHP"
>
> Well, being blind myself, it is difficult for blind users to dial
> letters on telephones. We conveyed this to HP, but reasonably enough,
> they thought that adding a second numerical telephone number would be
> redundant information for sighted users. Instead, they added the
> following hidden text for screen reader users: "(800-289-6947)" Which
> appears directly after the first text string like so within a screen
> reader: "Buy online or Call 800-BUY-MYHP (800-289-6947)"
>
> Hidden text can be very valuable in many situations.
>
> All the best,
>
> Bryan
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Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

Bryan Garaventa-2
I'm not familiar with ARIA, but was instead referring to the question

Is there any common situation where text that should be delivered _only_ to
screen reader users?

If ARIA can solve this, then more power to it. It is a real issue in
standard web development however, which doesn't always have a definite right
answer one way or the other, which is where policy decisions regarding what
is chosen to be hidden vs visible come into play.

Bryan





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bryan Garaventa
Senior Accessibility Engineer
SSB + BART Group
[hidden email]
www.SSBBartGroup.com
Accessibility-On-Demand

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Brunet" <[hidden email]>
Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.accessibility
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!


> Believe it or not, not all phones have letters on them.  I cannot make
> these calls on my cell (a Treo) or via my VOIP program until I find a
> regular phone to look up the mapping.  In other words, the numerical
> version is also valuable for sighted users.
>
> The other issues you mention, tabs, dialogs, etc, seem like semantic
> information rather that actual information.  I believe this semantic
> information is what ARIA is trying to address.  Ideally, none of this
> should be a hard-coded string that the user hears.  The markup indicates
> the widget type, and the screen reader should describe the widget based
> on the user's preferences, locale, etc.
>
> Bryan Garaventa wrote:
>> Yes, there are practical uses for hidden text for screen reader users.
>>
>> We come across this issue a lot with our clients, especially when
>> dealing with dynamic content driven web apps.
>>
>> This is often the case for visual components, such as simulated tab
>> controls, inline menus, simulated dialogs, and various visually oriented
>> web page components that are easy to understand when looking at them,
>> but can be very unclear from a textual standpoint. This also comes into
>> play regarding screen real estate, where many companies do not want an
>> inordinate amount of textual information if a visual component will do
>> the trick and save valuable space.
>>
>> As an example of this, on HP.com, near the logo, there is some text that
>> tells users what number to call for additional service. This is "Buy
>> online or Call 800-BUY-MYHP"
>>
>> Well, being blind myself, it is difficult for blind users to dial
>> letters on telephones. We conveyed this to HP, but reasonably enough,
>> they thought that adding a second numerical telephone number would be
>> redundant information for sighted users. Instead, they added the
>> following hidden text for screen reader users: "(800-289-6947)" Which
>> appears directly after the first text string like so within a screen
>> reader: "Buy online or Call 800-BUY-MYHP (800-289-6947)"
>>
>> Hidden text can be very valuable in many situations.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Bryan
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility 

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