Thunderbird Weekly Status meeting: Tuesday March 16th, 2010

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Thunderbird Weekly Status meeting: Tuesday March 16th, 2010

Mark Banner-2
[Followups aimed to mozilla.dev.apps.thunderbird]

See https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/StatusMeetings/2010-03-16 for
details, and please add anything you wish to discuss to the agenda.

Over the next few weeks we're going to try reorganising the meeting page
to try and simplify and better present the information. Please pass any
feedback via replying to this post in mozilla.dev.apps.thunderbird.

Standard8
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Re: Thunderbird Weekly Status meeting: Tuesday March 16th, 2010

Dan Mosedale-2
  On 3/15/10 2:25 PM, Mark Banner wrote:
> [Followups aimed to mozilla.dev.apps.thunderbird]
>
> See https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/StatusMeetings/2010-03-16 for
> details, and please add anything you wish to discuss to the agenda.
>
> Over the next few weeks we're going to try reorganising the meeting
> page to try and simplify and better present the information. Please
> pass any feedback via replying to this post in
> mozilla.dev.apps.thunderbird.
I've been doing some thinking about this of late.  I'm very encouraged
by how much more useful and engaging the revamped project-wide meeting
has been recently, and I'm hoping we can do something similar.

The two issues I do see around both our meeting and the page are:

1) a moderate amount of the meeting is effectively equivalent to people
reading aloud what they've already written on the wiki page, which is
neither a good use of people's time nor particularly engaging to listen to.

and

2) too many sections of the page contain extremely large amounts of
detail, resulting in things that are important to everyone as well as to
smaller subsets of people being lost in the noise.

I suspect a bunch of us have some ideas here, but before we drill into
them in detail, I think it would be useful to nail down what problems
we're trying to solve.

How do folks feel about 1) and 2) as statements of the most important
problems to solve here?

Dan

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Re: Thunderbird Weekly Status meeting: Tuesday March 16th, 2010

Mark Banner-2
In reply to this post by Mark Banner-2
On 15/03/2010 23:08, Dan Mosedale wrote:

> On 3/15/10 2:25 PM, Mark Banner wrote:
>> [Followups aimed to mozilla.dev.apps.thunderbird]
>>
>> See https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/StatusMeetings/2010-03-16 for
>> details, and please add anything you wish to discuss to the agenda.
>>
>> Over the next few weeks we're going to try reorganising the meeting
>> page to try and simplify and better present the information. Please
>> pass any feedback via replying to this post in
>> mozilla.dev.apps.thunderbird.
> I've been doing some thinking about this of late. I'm very encouraged by
> how much more useful and engaging the revamped project-wide meeting has
> been recently, and I'm hoping we can do something similar.
>
> The two issues I do see around both our meeting and the page are:
>
> 1) a moderate amount of the meeting is effectively equivalent to people
> reading aloud what they've already written on the wiki page, which is
> neither a good use of people's time nor particularly engaging to listen to.

> 2) too many sections of the page contain extremely large amounts of
> detail, resulting in things that are important to everyone as well as to
> smaller subsets of people being lost in the noise.
>
> I suspect a bunch of us have some ideas here, but before we drill into
> them in detail, I think it would be useful to nail down what problems
> we're trying to solve.
>
> How do folks feel about 1) and 2) as statements of the most important
> problems to solve here?

I think you're on about the right lines. I tried phrasing it in
different ways to say where we want to get to, but I think your summary
is good.

Mark.
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Re: Thunderbird Weekly Status meeting: Tuesday March 16th, 2010

Martin Jernberg-2
will be there =)

On 3/16/10, Mark Banner <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 15/03/2010 23:08, Dan Mosedale wrote:
>> On 3/15/10 2:25 PM, Mark Banner wrote:
>>> [Followups aimed to mozilla.dev.apps.thunderbird]
>>>
>>> See https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/StatusMeetings/2010-03-16 for
>>> details, and please add anything you wish to discuss to the agenda.
>>>
>>> Over the next few weeks we're going to try reorganising the meeting
>>> page to try and simplify and better present the information. Please
>>> pass any feedback via replying to this post in
>>> mozilla.dev.apps.thunderbird.
>> I've been doing some thinking about this of late. I'm very encouraged by
>> how much more useful and engaging the revamped project-wide meeting has
>> been recently, and I'm hoping we can do something similar.
>>
>> The two issues I do see around both our meeting and the page are:
>>
>> 1) a moderate amount of the meeting is effectively equivalent to people
>> reading aloud what they've already written on the wiki page, which is
>> neither a good use of people's time nor particularly engaging to listen
>> to.
>
>> 2) too many sections of the page contain extremely large amounts of
>> detail, resulting in things that are important to everyone as well as to
>> smaller subsets of people being lost in the noise.
>>
>> I suspect a bunch of us have some ideas here, but before we drill into
>> them in detail, I think it would be useful to nail down what problems
>> we're trying to solve.
>>
>> How do folks feel about 1) and 2) as statements of the most important
>> problems to solve here?
>
> I think you're on about the right lines. I tried phrasing it in
> different ways to say where we want to get to, but I think your summary
> is good.
>
> Mark.
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> dev-apps-thunderbird mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-thunderbird
>
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Re: Thunderbird Weekly Status meeting: Tuesday March 16th, 2010

Robert Kaiser
In reply to this post by Mark Banner-2
Dan Mosedale wrote:
> I'm very encouraged by
> how much more useful and engaging the revamped project-wide meeting has
> been recently, and I'm hoping we can do something similar.

Maybe this is so good because it's grown completely uninteresting for me
now.

> 1) a moderate amount of the meeting is effectively equivalent to people
> reading aloud what they've already written on the wiki page, which is
> neither a good use of people's time nor particularly engaging to listen to.

I would never read this myself if I wasn't dialing in, and actually, if
I miss a meeting, I never look into the notes and don't get any notice
of what happens there. Just as you might not get any notice about
SeaMonkey happenings any more since we don't go through personal status
any more in the meeting.

Robert Kaiser
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Re: Thunderbird Weekly Status meeting: Tuesday March 16th, 2010

Dan Mosedale-2
  On 3/16/10 5:17 AM, Robert Kaiser wrote:
> Dan Mosedale wrote:
>> I'm very encouraged by
>> how much more useful and engaging the revamped project-wide meeting has
>> been recently, and I'm hoping we can do something similar.
>
> Maybe this is so good because it's grown completely uninteresting for
> me now.
Can you unpack what you mean by that?

>> 1) a moderate amount of the meeting is effectively equivalent to people
>> reading aloud what they've already written on the wiki page, which is
>> neither a good use of people's time nor particularly engaging to
>> listen to.
>
> I would never read this myself if I wasn't dialing in, and actually,
> if I miss a meeting, I never look into the notes and don't get any
> notice of what happens there. Just as you might not get any notice
> about SeaMonkey happenings any more since we don't go through personal
> status any more in the meeting.
I do try to skim the status updates that people make.   What's not clear
to me from what you've written above is whether there is
Thunderbird-related info that you want to keep up on but don't because
of the current format.  Is there?

Dan

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Re: Thunderbird Weekly Status meeting: Tuesday March 16th, 2010

Robert Kaiser
In reply to this post by Robert Kaiser
Dan Mosedale wrote:
> On 3/16/10 5:17 AM, Robert Kaiser wrote:
>> Dan Mosedale wrote:
>>> I'm very encouraged by
>>> how much more useful and engaging the revamped project-wide meeting has
>>> been recently, and I'm hoping we can do something similar.
>>
>> Maybe this is so good because it's grown completely uninteresting for
>> me now.
> Can you unpack what you mean by that?

Maybe the changes that make it sound good for you are the same why it is
now pretty uninteresting for me - like, I don't get much information
there anymore that are of any value to me.
I'm interested in status of the Mozilla project, which I get less and
less there.

> I do try to skim the status updates that people make. What's not clear
> to me from what you've written above is whether there is
> Thunderbird-related info that you want to keep up on but don't because
> of the current format. Is there?

I just think that it's probably hard for you to filter out what affects
Thunderbird or not in updates like mine, and I don't have a good venue
any more to point you to things in the meeting that might actually be
interested, unless it's really groundbreaking stuff that makes sense to
bring up in the roundtable.

In any case, I have the impression that Mozilla Messaging is trying to
reduce communication as well as emotions (like fun) in the project, so
if that's a real target, go forward with doing it.

Robert Kaiser
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Re: Thunderbird Weekly Status meeting: Tuesday March 16th, 2010

Dan Mosedale-2
  On 3/17/10 6:39 AM, Robert Kaiser wrote:

> Dan Mosedale wrote:
>> On 3/16/10 5:17 AM, Robert Kaiser wrote:
>>> Dan Mosedale wrote:
>>>> I'm very encouraged by
>>>> how much more useful and engaging the revamped project-wide meeting
>>>> has
>>>> been recently, and I'm hoping we can do something similar.
>>>
>>> Maybe this is so good because it's grown completely uninteresting for
>>> me now.
>> Can you unpack what you mean by that?
>
> Maybe the changes that make it sound good for you are the same why it
> is now pretty uninteresting for me - like, I don't get much
> information there anymore that are of any value to me.
> I'm interested in status of the Mozilla project, which I get less and
> less there.
That meeting is effectively now split into two pieces: the wiki page,
where general status reporting happens, and the phone/video part, where
people drill into detail on pieces that are likely to be of interest to
contributors.  The theory there is that it's much easier and more
efficient to get status just by reading, whereas the presentations keep
people up-to-date with things that have bigger picture implications that
actually get high value from the medium.  My experience is consistent
with that theory: I find it much more engaging, and I tend to get
significantly more value from the time that I invest.

It seems like even if you don't find the phone/video lightning talks
particularly valuable, this could be a better situation for you, since
it means you could just read the wiki page and not bother with the media
piece at all, and you would have saved a bunch of time.  It sounds to me
like this isn't the way you're experiencing it, however... can you
elaborate more?

>> I do try to skim the status updates that people make. What's not clear
>> to me from what you've written above is whether there is
>> Thunderbird-related info that you want to keep up on but don't because
>> of the current format. Is there?
>
> I just think that it's probably hard for you to filter out what
> affects Thunderbird or not in updates like mine,
Right, that's true.  I tend to assume that if there's something
SeaMonkey like that I need to spend time on, you or another SeaMonkey
contributor will bring it to my attention.
> and I don't have a good venue any more to point you to things in the
> meeting that might actually be interested, unless it's really
> groundbreaking stuff that makes sense to bring up in the roundtable.
I'm confused.  If you're referring to the fact that you don't have a
speaking slot in the project-wide meeting any more, that doesn't seem
like a problem, since there's still the project-wide wiki page for you
to include the sort of information you're referring to.  If you're
referring to something in the Tb meeting, I'm unclear what you're
objecting to, since nothing's changed there yet, and if it does change,
it would certainly leave space for that sort of info as well.
> In any case, I have the impression that Mozilla Messaging is trying to
> reduce communication as well as emotions (like fun) in the project, so
> if that's a real target, go forward with doing it.
In fact, increasing fun is a strong goal!  Can you unpack what gave you
the impression we were trying to reduce fun?

We're trying to refactor our communications so that people can move
stuff forward in ways that increase happiness and decrease frustration
across the board.  As an example, users expressing frustration by
venting or ranting is a valid, human thing to do.  That said, when it
happens in the middle of design and development discussions in Bugzilla,
it results in unhappy and unproductive developers and designers, and the
actual problem at hand gets fixed much more slowly, and, often times,
less well.  GetSatisfaction, on the other hand, is very much designed as
a place for users to give their reactions and express emotions in many
ways, and for community members to help them work through their issues.

Dan

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Re: Thunderbird Weekly Status meeting: Tuesday March 16th, 2010

Gervase Markham
In reply to this post by Robert Kaiser
On 17/03/10 16:21, Dan Mosedale wrote:
> I'm confused. If you're referring to the fact that you don't have a
> speaking slot in the project-wide meeting any more, that doesn't seem
> like a problem, since there's still the project-wide wiki page for you
> to include the sort of information you're referring to.

And you are welcome to request a speaking slot (limited to 3 minutes, as
they all are) if there are things you want to say :-)

Gerv
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Re: Thunderbird Weekly Status meeting: Tuesday March 16th, 2010

Robert Kaiser
Gervase Markham wrote:
> On 17/03/10 16:21, Dan Mosedale wrote:
>> I'm confused. If you're referring to the fact that you don't have a
>> speaking slot in the project-wide meeting any more, that doesn't seem
>> like a problem, since there's still the project-wide wiki page for you
>> to include the sort of information you're referring to.
>
> And you are welcome to request a speaking slot (limited to 3 minutes, as
> they all are) if there are things you want to say :-)

I don't even dial in or watch it any more, so what should I say
anything? Also, requesting a slot for 1-2 sentences (and more isn't
interesting to a community who doesn't seem to be very interested in
SeaMonkey in the first place) is just not worth the time.

Robert Kaiser
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Re: Thunderbird Weekly Status meeting: Tuesday March 16th, 2010

Robert Kaiser
In reply to this post by Robert Kaiser
Dan Mosedale wrote:
> That meeting is effectively now split into two pieces: the wiki page,
> where general status reporting happens

Which most people probably don't read - at least I don't and won't,
without listening to vices talking about it.

> and the phone/video part, where
> people drill into detail on pieces that are likely to be of interest to
> contributors.

Well, nothing of much interest for me anymore, or so I feel. May I just
am no Mozilla contributor any more, or just not the target audience of
this meeting.

> The theory there is that it's much easier and more
> efficient to get status just by reading

Well, that might be true for people who are not as overloaded and tired
of reading and writing as I am. Listening and talking is a relief for me
every time it happens.
Maybe the meeting are tailored for a different type of person than I am,
and I'm used to being the one whose needs are just outside the norm and
ignored in favor of things fitting a larger audience.

> I tend to assume that if there's something SeaMonkey
> like that I need to spend time on, you or another SeaMonkey contributor
> will bring it to my attention.

I thought so.

>> and I don't have a good venue any more to point you to things in the
>> meeting that might actually be interested, unless it's really
>> groundbreaking stuff that makes sense to bring up in the roundtable.
> I'm confused. If you're referring to the fact that you don't have a
> speaking slot in the project-wide meeting any more, that doesn't seem
> like a problem, since there's still the project-wide wiki page for you
> to include the sort of information you're referring to. If you're
> referring to something in the Tb meeting, I'm unclear what you're
> objecting to, since nothing's changed there yet, and if it does change,
> it would certainly leave space for that sort of info as well.

I usually brought up the one or two sentences on SeaMonkey status of
interest when my personal updates were up on the TB meeting. Maybe that
was the wrong place anyhow and we should have a SeaMonkey slot in there
where I bring up those max. 1-2 sentences per week (if any) that are of
significance to Thunderbird.

>> In any case, I have the impression that Mozilla Messaging is trying to
>> reduce communication as well as emotions (like fun) in the project, so
>> if that's a real target, go forward with doing it.
> In fact, increasing fun is a strong goal! Can you unpack what gave you
> the impression we were trying to reduce fun?

You're trying to reduce emotions, and fun is an emotion, you're trying
to reduce discussions, but figuring out the needs and problems of others
and addressing them produces more overall fun, and you're splitting up
communication ways needlessly (see tb-planning) which greatly reduces
fun for a number of participants. So I can't say you're successful in
increasing fun - at least from where I stand.
<rant>But then, getting rid of me in TB discussions might increase the
fun for some people, not sure. Some people also have fun dissing
SeaMonkey or telling me I'm an idiot, who's to say that increasing their
fun isn't a good thing?</rant>

> We're trying to refactor our communications so that people can move
> stuff forward in ways that increase happiness and decrease frustration
> across the board.

Well, your efforts alone increase frustration for a number of people,
which you conveniently just seem to ignore. See e.g. the thread about
tb-planning.

> As an example, users expressing frustration by venting
> or ranting is a valid, human thing to do.

I'm much more talking about contributors than users here. I'm frustrated
enough without getting to the depressing talk about users and support.

Robert Kaiser
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Re: Thunderbird Weekly Status meeting: Tuesday March 16th, 2010

Sebastian Hengst
In reply to this post by Robert Kaiser
Dan Mosedale wrote:
> That meeting is effectively now split into two pieces: the wiki page,
> where general status reporting happens, and the phone/video part, where
> people drill into detail on pieces that are likely to be of interest to
> contributors.  The theory there is that it's much easier and more
> efficient to get status just by reading, whereas the presentations keep
> people up-to-date with things that have bigger picture implications that
> actually get high value from the medium.  My experience is consistent
> with that theory: I find it much more engaging, and I tend to get
> significantly more value from the time that I invest.
That now requires that anybody interested is attending, right? The wiki
page changed to something like the summary of Delivery, QA, etc. meeting
(compared to Firefox), but MailNews Core and UI (Thunderbird) related
items are nearly missing. I liked the old wiki page because it was more
time efficient than attending the meeting.

> In fact, increasing fun is a strong goal!  Can you unpack what gave you
> the impression we were trying to reduce fun?
1) Lobbying for blocking-requests!
2) tb-planning. I had never the impression that mdat is overcrowded

Archaeopteryx

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Re: Thunderbird Weekly Status meeting: Tuesday March 16th, 2010

Andrew Sutherland-3
On 03/19/2010 03:02 AM, Archaeopteryx wrote:
> 2) tb-planning. I had never the impression that mdat is overcrowded

One of my big hopes for for tb-planning is that the archives of the list
will be much more useful than those of mdat.  Many people use mdat like
it was a thunderbird-users list rather than a thunderbird-dev list.  For
example, there are near-daily posts to ask whether something is a bug,
frequently with follow-ups by people trying to be helpful, as well as
enhancement requests and the like.

While someone who reads mdat daily is unlikely to be seriously
inconvenienced by skipping these messages/threads, it does add a lot of
noise to the signal.  If the archives are more usable to people, this
will hopefully improve the signal even further as people with questions
appropriate to tb-planning but which have already been answered can
check the archives before re-asking the question.

Andrew
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Re: Thunderbird Weekly Status meeting: Tuesday March 16th, 2010

Simon Paquet-2
In reply to this post by Sebastian Hengst
Archaeopteryx wrote on 19. Mar 2010:

> 2) tb-planning. I had never the impression that mdat is overcrowded

Did tb-planning already start? I thought that as a member of the
TB release drivers list, that I would we automatically added to the
list of subscribers, but that doesn't seem to be case?

Simon

--
Thunderbird/Calendar Localisation (L10n) Coordinator
Thunderbird l10n blog:       http://thunderbird-l10n.blogspot.com
Calendar website maintainer: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar
Calendar developer blog:     http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/calendar
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Re: Thunderbird Weekly Status meeting: Tuesday March 16th, 2010

Dan Mosedale-2
  On 3/19/10 8:01 AM, Simon Paquet wrote:
> Archaeopteryx wrote on 19. Mar 2010:
>
>> 2) tb-planning. I had never the impression that mdat is overcrowded
>
> Did tb-planning already start? I thought that as a member of the
> TB release drivers list, that I would we automatically added to the
> list of subscribers, but that doesn't seem to be case?
I said I'd be doing that at some point, but later changed my mind.  I
thought I had announced that to tb-drivers when I did so, but it's
possible I forgot.  If so, I apologize.

Dan

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Re: Thunderbird Weekly Status meeting: Tuesday March 16th, 2010

Dan Mosedale-2
In reply to this post by Sebastian Hengst
  On 3/19/10 3:02 AM, Archaeopteryx wrote:

> Dan Mosedale wrote:
>> That meeting is effectively now split into two pieces: the wiki page,
>> where general status reporting happens, and the phone/video part, where
>> people drill into detail on pieces that are likely to be of interest to
>> contributors.  The theory there is that it's much easier and more
>> efficient to get status just by reading, whereas the presentations keep
>> people up-to-date with things that have bigger picture implications that
>> actually get high value from the medium.  My experience is consistent
>> with that theory: I find it much more engaging, and I tend to get
>> significantly more value from the time that I invest.
> That now requires that anybody interested is attending, right?
Yes and no.  My impression is that the status stuff is generally still
captured on the wiki page (or pages linked to from it), like it always
was.  However, if you miss the Lightning talks, that content is only
available to folks who are willing to go review the video.
> The wiki page changed to something like the summary of Delivery, QA, etc. meeting
> (compared to Firefox), but MailNews Core and UI (Thunderbird) related
> items are nearly missing.
I'm surprised to hear you say this.  The Thunderbird section of the wiki
page is still there (though I did miss updating it a week or two ago),
and I think I've continued to put similar content in there to what I put
into in the old page.

What do you think is missing?
>   I liked the old wiki page because it was more
> time efficient than attending the meeting.
W.r.t. the status information, I think that's mostly still true.  It's
just the things in the Lightning talks that one would miss.  Do you
disagree?

Dan

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Re: Thunderbird Weekly Status meeting: Tuesday March 16th, 2010

Dan Mosedale-2
In reply to this post by Robert Kaiser
  On 3/18/10 7:13 AM, Robert Kaiser wrote:
> Dan Mosedale wrote:
>> That meeting is effectively now split into two pieces: the wiki page,
>> where general status reporting happens
>
> Which most people probably don't read - at least I don't and won't,
> without listening to vices talking about it.
This strikes me as really unlikely to be true for most people, and you
haven't said why you think it is.
>> The theory there is that it's much easier and more
>> efficient to get status just by reading
>
> Well, that might be true for people who are not as overloaded and
> tired of reading and writing as I am. Listening and talking is a
> relief for me every time it happens.
> Maybe the meeting are tailored for a different type of person than I
> am, and I'm used to being the one whose needs are just outside the
> norm and ignored in favor of things fitting a larger audience.
Right, I think that is what's going on here.  In fact, because I work
from home a lot, I tend to like voice meetings better as well.  But I
think it's very unlikely that you and I are the typical cases here, and
since we're asking a lot of people to give up their time for these
meetings, I think it's important that they be structured in a way which
is most helpful to most of those people.

>>> and I don't have a good venue any more to point you to things in the
>>> meeting that might actually be interested, unless it's really
>>> groundbreaking stuff that makes sense to bring up in the roundtable.
>> I'm confused. If you're referring to the fact that you don't have a
>> speaking slot in the project-wide meeting any more, that doesn't seem
>> like a problem, since there's still the project-wide wiki page for you
>> to include the sort of information you're referring to. If you're
>> referring to something in the Tb meeting, I'm unclear what you're
>> objecting to, since nothing's changed there yet, and if it does change,
>> it would certainly leave space for that sort of info as well.
>
> I usually brought up the one or two sentences on SeaMonkey status of
> interest when my personal updates were up on the TB meeting. Maybe
> that was the wrong place anyhow and we should have a SeaMonkey slot in
> there where I bring up those max. 1-2 sentences per week (if any) that
> are of significance to Thunderbird.
That sounds fine to me.  On Monday, I hope to post some suggestions on
how we might want to adjust the Tb meeting going forward, and I think
this would fit nicely.

>>> In any case, I have the impression that Mozilla Messaging is trying to
>>> reduce communication as well as emotions (like fun) in the project, so
>>> if that's a real target, go forward with doing it.
>> In fact, increasing fun is a strong goal! Can you unpack what gave you
>> the impression we were trying to reduce fun?
>
> You're trying to reduce emotions, and fun is an emotion, you're trying
> to reduce discussions, but figuring out the needs and problems of
> others and addressing them produces more overall fun, and you're
> splitting up communication ways needlessly (see tb-planning) which
> greatly reduces fun for a number of participants. So I can't say
> you're successful in increasing fun - at least from where I stand.
> <rant>But then, getting rid of me in TB discussions might increase the
> fun for some people, not sure. Some people also have fun dissing
> SeaMonkey or telling me I'm an idiot, who's to say that increasing
> their fun isn't a good thing?</rant>
>
I'm not trying to reduce either emotions or discussions.  People are
emotional creatures, which is just great.  I'm trying refactor
discussions so that certain _expressions_ of emotion aren't allowed to
damage important discussions.  Indeed, if someone sent a post to
tb-planning suggesting that you were an idiot, or dissing SeaMonkey, I'd
bounce it!  There are plenty of ways to constructively express emotion
that don't damage our ability to get work done.
>> We're trying to refactor our communications so that people can move
>> stuff forward in ways that increase happiness and decrease frustration
>> across the board.
>
> Well, your efforts alone increase frustration for a number of people,
> which you conveniently just seem to ignore. See e.g. the thread about
> tb-planning.
It appears to me that you're confusing "listening to but not changing
course" with "ignoring".  If you'll notice, I responded to the majority
of points that people brought up in that discussion.

The reality is, change is always hard, but often times (and I believe
very much so in this case!) the difficulties caused by the change are
outweighed by the improvements.

Dan

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Re: Thunderbird Weekly Status meeting: Tuesday March 16th, 2010

Robert Kaiser
In reply to this post by Robert Kaiser
Dan Mosedale wrote:
> Indeed, if someone sent a post to
> tb-planning suggesting that you were an idiot, or dissing SeaMonkey, I'd
> bounce it!

Ah, nice, so that new list is a censorship instrument after all.
I have taken all those insults on newsgroups, esp. the SeaMonkey support
one, and I think it's something one needs to read and study as well as
constructive messages. Those people are flaming and dissing for a
reason, they are emotionally attached to something in our products which
is basically a very good thing, and they get the impression of us
attacking those thing they feel attached to. It's a bad move to ignore that.

> The reality is, change is always hard, but often times (and I believe
> very much so in this case!) the difficulties caused by the change are
> outweighed by the improvements.

And often enough, those changes are the doom of some things that were
dearly loved and one comes back to the old ways and trying a different
approach later, when those few that are left and have swallowed the
wrong and bad times come back with a "I have said that from the
beginning". Somehow reminds me of some episodes I've seen in Mozilla
elsewhere. ;-)

In any case, for a non-employee, the Mozilla project has become cold,
dry, and sometimes even quite hostile compared to the old AOL/Netscape
days. Contributing by "outsiders" doesn't feel that much appreciated as
in earlier times, and the fragmented but overloaded ways of
communication make it harder to have some running gags and jokes running
around. When we said "we suck" in 2000, it was a way to light your day
and grin after seeing the trees burn, when anyone says it today, someone
is offended.
And all we are doing is making it more convenient to employees and even
less convenient to those who want to get in contact with ongoing core
contributors or let alone new people trying to come in. In earlier days,
we encouraged people who were emotionally attached to something to help
improving it, now we try to push them off the cliff where we don't have
to deal with them - or so it seems in Firefox and possible even more
Thunderbird communities.

Robert Kaiser
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Re: Thunderbird Weekly Status meeting: Tuesday March 16th, 2010

Dan Mosedale-2
  On 3/19/10 10:40 AM, Robert Kaiser wrote:

> Dan Mosedale wrote:
>> Indeed, if someone sent a post to
>> tb-planning suggesting that you were an idiot, or dissing SeaMonkey, I'd
>> bounce it!
>
> Ah, nice, so that new list is a censorship instrument after all.
> I have taken all those insults on newsgroups, esp. the SeaMonkey
> support one, and I think it's something one needs to read and study as
> well as constructive messages. Those people are flaming and dissing
> for a reason, they are emotionally attached to something in our
> products which is basically a very good thing, and they get the
> impression of us attacking those thing they feel attached to. It's a
> bad move to ignore that.
You seem to be overlooking the fact that I am in no way asserting that
people can't say those sorts of things.  I am, however, asserting that
they don't belong in certain specific venues.  If I were to bounce such
a message from tb-planning, the original poster would be more than
welcome to post it on their own blog or anywhere else where it was
acceptable.

> In any case, for a non-employee, the Mozilla project has become cold,
> dry, and sometimes even quite hostile compared to the old AOL/Netscape
> days. Contributing by "outsiders" doesn't feel that much appreciated
> as in earlier times, and the fragmented but overloaded ways of
> communication make it harder to have some running gags and jokes
> running around. When we said "we suck" in 2000, it was a way to light
> your day and grin after seeing the trees burn, when anyone says it
> today, someone is offended.
> And all we are doing is making it more convenient to employees and
> even less convenient to those who want to get in contact with ongoing
> core contributors or let alone new people trying to come in. In
> earlier days, we encouraged people who were emotionally attached to
> something to help improving it, now we try to push them off the cliff
> where we don't have to deal with them - or so it seems in Firefox and
> possible even more Thunderbird communities.
I hear that you're frustrated with these changes, and I'm sorry to see
that.  One of the things that I've read recently and found exceedingly
insightful is <http://shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html>; it's been
influential in my thinking as I've made recent suggestions and changes.

I disagree strongly that any of these changes will make it harder on new
people joining the community; I expect the fact that people are able to
have discussions without fear of name-calling or someone jumping down
their throats to make it (on average) significantly _easier_ and more
rewarding for new people to participate.

In any case, I think we're off on a tangent here, in the sense that most
of this isn't really related to tweaking the format of the status
meeting in any specific way.

Dan

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Re: Thunderbird Weekly Status meeting: Tuesday March 16th, 2010

Craig-82
In reply to this post by Robert Kaiser
On 03/19/2010 10:40 AM, Robert Kaiser wrote:
>
> In any case, for a non-employee, the Mozilla project has become cold,
> dry, and sometimes even quite hostile compared to the old AOL/Netscape
> days.

I greatly appreciate this thread for highlighting issues around the idea
of "what kind of community does the Mozilla community want to have?"  In
that vein, a question:

Is there a someone at the Mozilla project tasked with a role similar to
Jono Bacon's "community manager" at Ubuntu?  The reason I ask is that,
in my (very limited) experience, it seems the development of the Mozilla
/community/ is relatively ad hoc.

I'm aware, for example, that Mary Colvig is the Mozilla Community
Manager but, in that context, it's a marketing function:

> Mary Colvig engages with the global Mozilla community to foster
> participation in marketing Mozilla and Firefox.  She oversees
> Mozilla's community events program, where she works to facilitate
> Mozilla community collaboration in the offline world -- at
> conferences, user groups, install days, developer days and more. Mary
> was a driving force behind the Mozilla community effort to set a
> Guinness World Record for the launch of Firefox 3...
> Source : <http://www.spreadfirefox.com/MozillaBios>

Whereas the Ubuntu Community Manager position articulates a conscious
goal of developing the human ecosystem that is "the project:"

> Hello! I am Jono Bacon, and I work for Canonical as the Ubuntu
> Community Manager (UCM). As the UCM I am here to help the Ubuntu
> community tick along, ensure teams can work together easily, help
> build LoCo teams, work with upstream communities and more.
> Importantly, I am here for the Ubuntu community as someone to consult
> with with any community related issues. If you're unsure of anything,
> want to flesh some ideas out, or just want some advice, give me a yell. :)
> Source : <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JonoBacon>

I'm not saying that the Ubuntu project or Mr Bacon has the "the way" of
making a "good" community.  Rather, it's the Ubuntu project's /explicit
commitment/ to addressing overall community dynamics that is so... I
don't know.  Illuminating?

fwiw,
-Craig

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