Theater shooting in San Antonio.

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Theater shooting in San Antonio.

Ron Hunter
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Re: Theater shooting in San Antonio.

Sailfish-2
My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
12/18/2012 11:56 AM:
> http://www.theblaze.com/stories/man-attempts-to-open-fire-on-crowd-at-movie-theater-armed-off-duty-sheriffs-deputy-drops-him-with-one-bullet/ 
>
> Don't do this in Texas, guys, it's likely to end badly.

REF:
http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#List_of_notable_U.S._school_attacks

But not always without innocent casualties.

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Re: Theater shooting in San Antonio.

Ron Hunter
On 12/18/2012 2:20 PM, Sailfish wrote:

> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
> 12/18/2012 11:56 AM:
>> http://www.theblaze.com/stories/man-attempts-to-open-fire-on-crowd-at-movie-theater-armed-off-duty-sheriffs-deputy-drops-him-with-one-bullet/
>>
>> Don't do this in Texas, guys, it's likely to end badly.
>
> REF:
> http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#List_of_notable_U.S._school_attacks
>
>
> But not always without innocent casualties.
>
Well, think how many he might have killed had he gotten started in a
theater...

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Re: Theater shooting in San Antonio.

Sailfish-2
My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
12/18/2012 2:00 PM:

> On 12/18/2012 2:20 PM, Sailfish wrote:
>> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
>> 12/18/2012 11:56 AM:
>>> http://www.theblaze.com/stories/man-attempts-to-open-fire-on-crowd-at-movie-theater-armed-off-duty-sheriffs-deputy-drops-him-with-one-bullet/ 
>>>
>>> Don't do this in Texas, guys, it's likely to end badly.
>>
>> REF:
>> http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#List_of_notable_U.S._school_attacks 
>>
>> But not always without innocent casualties.
>>
> Well, think how many he might have killed had he gotten started in a
> theater...
>
Okay, and you should think about how many do get killed even when armed
civilians are around and somehow don't stop the act. The point being,
you're harboring a false sense of security if you believe anecdotal
incidents of where this prevented such carnage would have prevented this
incident. Sure, it could have, but it's just as likely that it wouldn't
have.

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Re: Theater shooting in San Antonio.

Ron Hunter
On 12/18/2012 4:22 PM, Sailfish wrote:

> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
> 12/18/2012 2:00 PM:
>> On 12/18/2012 2:20 PM, Sailfish wrote:
>>> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
>>> 12/18/2012 11:56 AM:
>>>> http://www.theblaze.com/stories/man-attempts-to-open-fire-on-crowd-at-movie-theater-armed-off-duty-sheriffs-deputy-drops-him-with-one-bullet/
>>>>
>>>> Don't do this in Texas, guys, it's likely to end badly.
>>>
>>> REF:
>>> http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#List_of_notable_U.S._school_attacks
>>>
>>> But not always without innocent casualties.
>>>
>> Well, think how many he might have killed had he gotten started in a
>> theater...
>>
> Okay, and you should think about how many do get killed even when armed
> civilians are around and somehow don't stop the act. The point being,
> you're harboring a false sense of security if you believe anecdotal
> incidents of where this prevented such carnage would have prevented this
> incident. Sure, it could have, but it's just as likely that it wouldn't
> have.
>
Not quite as likely, depending on the situation.  Nothing is certain in
this life, but death.

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Re: Theater shooting in San Antonio.

F1Com
In reply to this post by Sailfish-2
On 12/18/2012 2:22 PM On a whim, Sailfish pounded out on the keyboard

> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
> 12/18/2012 2:00 PM:
>> On 12/18/2012 2:20 PM, Sailfish wrote:
>>> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
>>> 12/18/2012 11:56 AM:
>>>> http://www.theblaze.com/stories/man-attempts-to-open-fire-on-crowd-at-movie-theater-armed-off-duty-sheriffs-deputy-drops-him-with-one-bullet/
>>>>
>>>> Don't do this in Texas, guys, it's likely to end badly.
>>> REF:
>>> http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#List_of_notable_U.S._school_attacks
>>>
>>> But not always without innocent casualties.
>>>
>> Well, think how many he might have killed had he gotten started in a
>> theater...
>>
> Okay, and you should think about how many do get killed even when armed
> civilians are around and somehow don't stop the act. The point being,
> you're harboring a false sense of security if you believe anecdotal
> incidents of where this prevented such carnage would have prevented this
> incident. Sure, it could have, but it's just as likely that it wouldn't
> have.
>

So, a 50-50 chance is better than 100-0 chance, is what you're saying,
right?  I'll have to agree.  I'd rather at least have a chance to change
the outcome.



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Re: Theater shooting in San Antonio.

clay-14
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
Ron Hunter wrote:

> On 12/18/2012 4:22 PM, Sailfish wrote:
>> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
>> 12/18/2012 2:00 PM:
>>> On 12/18/2012 2:20 PM, Sailfish wrote:
>>>> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
>>>> 12/18/2012 11:56 AM:
>>>>> http://www.theblaze.com/stories/man-attempts-to-open-fire-on-crowd-at-movie-theater-armed-off-duty-sheriffs-deputy-drops-him-with-one-bullet/
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't do this in Texas, guys, it's likely to end badly.
>>>>
>>>> REF:
>>>> http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#List_of_notable_U.S._school_attacks
>>>>
>>>> But not always without innocent casualties.
>>>>
>>> Well, think how many he might have killed had he gotten started in a
>>> theater...
>>>
>> Okay, and you should think about how many do get killed even when armed
>> civilians are around and somehow don't stop the act. The point being,
>> you're harboring a false sense of security if you believe anecdotal
>> incidents of where this prevented such carnage would have prevented this
>> incident. Sure, it could have, but it's just as likely that it wouldn't
>> have.
>>
> Not quite as likely, depending on the situation.  Nothing is certain in
> this life, but death.
>

The goal is to prevent the act, not stop the act.
Armed citizens are a deterrent.
You can bet, given a choice, a bad guy would prefer to walk into a
restaurant knowing there are no guns there than a restaurant where half
the patrons are carrying.

Someone posted a story about the Denver shooting. There were several
theaters showing the movie, some closer to the perp yet the perp chose
to go to the one that had posted 'gun free zone' signs.
Fact, or rightwing media BS, I dunno.
But the fact is, most criminals are cowards and will choose the target
that presents the least resistance.
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Re: Theater shooting in San Antonio.

»Q«
In reply to this post by Sailfish-2
On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 14:22:21 -0800
Sailfish <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
> 12/18/2012 2:00 PM:
> > On 12/18/2012 2:20 PM, Sailfish wrote:  
> >> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
> >> 12/18/2012 11:56 AM:  
> >>> http://www.theblaze.com/stories/man-attempts-to-open-fire-on-crowd-at-movie-theater-armed-off-duty-sheriffs-deputy-drops-him-with-one-bullet/ 
> >>>
> >>> Don't do this in Texas, guys, it's likely to end badly.  
> >>
> >> REF:
> >> http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#List_of_notable_U.S._school_attacks 
> >>
> >> But not always without innocent casualties.
> >>  
> > Well, think how many he might have killed had he gotten started in
> > a theater...
> >  
> Okay, and you should think about how many do get killed even when
> armed civilians are around and somehow don't stop the act. The point
> being, you're harboring a false sense of security if you believe
> anecdotal incidents of where this prevented such carnage would have
> prevented this incident. Sure, it could have, but it's just as likely
> that it wouldn't have.

Sometimes it's much more comforting to look at a single instance that
fits a pre-existing view than to look at an aggregate picture.  The map
at
<http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/24/interactive-map-the-us-shooting-epidemic.html>
shows 28 multiple-fatality shootings in Texas since 2005, with 188
casualties including 90 fatalities.  Subtract Fort Hood, and that's 27
incidents with 146 casualties including 78 fatalities.  I don't see an
easy way to find out how much of that happened where guns can be
carried legally.
 
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Re: Theater shooting in San Antonio.

Sailfish-2
In reply to this post by F1Com
My bloviated meandering follows what [hidden email] graced us
with on 12/18/2012 4:15 PM:

> On 12/18/2012 2:22 PM On a whim, Sailfish pounded out on the keyboard
>
>> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
>> 12/18/2012 2:00 PM:
>>> On 12/18/2012 2:20 PM, Sailfish wrote:
>>>> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
>>>> 12/18/2012 11:56 AM:
>>>>> http://www.theblaze.com/stories/man-attempts-to-open-fire-on-crowd-at-movie-theater-armed-off-duty-sheriffs-deputy-drops-him-with-one-bullet/ 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't do this in Texas, guys, it's likely to end badly.
>>>> REF:
>>>> http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#List_of_notable_U.S._school_attacks 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But not always without innocent casualties.
>>>>
>>> Well, think how many he might have killed had he gotten started in a
>>> theater...
>>>
>> Okay, and you should think about how many do get killed even when armed
>> civilians are around and somehow don't stop the act. The point being,
>> you're harboring a false sense of security if you believe anecdotal
>> incidents of where this prevented such carnage would have prevented this
>> incident. Sure, it could have, but it's just as likely that it wouldn't
>> have.
>
> So, a 50-50 chance is better than 100-0 chance, is what you're saying,
> right?  I'll have to agree.  I'd rather at least have a chance to change
> the outcome.
>
What part of kindergarten and armed teachers seems non-surreal to you?

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Re: Theater shooting in San Antonio.

Ron Hunter
On 12/18/2012 8:54 PM, Sailfish wrote:

> My bloviated meandering follows what [hidden email] graced us
> with on 12/18/2012 4:15 PM:
>> On 12/18/2012 2:22 PM On a whim, Sailfish pounded out on the keyboard
>>
>>> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
>>> 12/18/2012 2:00 PM:
>>>> On 12/18/2012 2:20 PM, Sailfish wrote:
>>>>> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
>>>>> 12/18/2012 11:56 AM:
>>>>>> http://www.theblaze.com/stories/man-attempts-to-open-fire-on-crowd-at-movie-theater-armed-off-duty-sheriffs-deputy-drops-him-with-one-bullet/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't do this in Texas, guys, it's likely to end badly.
>>>>> REF:
>>>>> http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#List_of_notable_U.S._school_attacks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But not always without innocent casualties.
>>>>>
>>>> Well, think how many he might have killed had he gotten started in a
>>>> theater...
>>>>
>>> Okay, and you should think about how many do get killed even when armed
>>> civilians are around and somehow don't stop the act. The point being,
>>> you're harboring a false sense of security if you believe anecdotal
>>> incidents of where this prevented such carnage would have prevented this
>>> incident. Sure, it could have, but it's just as likely that it wouldn't
>>> have.
>>
>> So, a 50-50 chance is better than 100-0 chance, is what you're saying,
>> right?  I'll have to agree.  I'd rather at least have a chance to
>> change the outcome.
>>
> What part of kindergarten and armed teachers seems non-surreal to you?
>
I see no inconsistency.  No more than I see a fence around a play yard
as inconsistent with a kindergarten.  As long as the intention is to
protect, and defend, the children, and rational care is exercised.
Remember, I grew up with guns in the house until I left home at age 18.
  I do admit to being shot through the hand with my own air rifle, though.

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Re: Theater shooting in San Antonio.

Sailfish-2
My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
12/19/2012 12:19 AM:

> On 12/18/2012 8:54 PM, Sailfish wrote:
>> My bloviated meandering follows what [hidden email] graced us
>> with on 12/18/2012 4:15 PM:
>>> On 12/18/2012 2:22 PM On a whim, Sailfish pounded out on the keyboard
>>>
>>>> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
>>>> 12/18/2012 2:00 PM:
>>>>> On 12/18/2012 2:20 PM, Sailfish wrote:
>>>>>> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
>>>>>> 12/18/2012 11:56 AM:
>>>>>>> http://www.theblaze.com/stories/man-attempts-to-open-fire-on-crowd-at-movie-theater-armed-off-duty-sheriffs-deputy-drops-him-with-one-bullet/ 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don't do this in Texas, guys, it's likely to end badly.
>>>>>> REF:
>>>>>> http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#List_of_notable_U.S._school_attacks 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But not always without innocent casualties.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Well, think how many he might have killed had he gotten started in a
>>>>> theater...
>>>>>
>>>> Okay, and you should think about how many do get killed even when armed
>>>> civilians are around and somehow don't stop the act. The point being,
>>>> you're harboring a false sense of security if you believe anecdotal
>>>> incidents of where this prevented such carnage would have prevented
>>>> this
>>>> incident. Sure, it could have, but it's just as likely that it wouldn't
>>>> have.
>>>
>>> So, a 50-50 chance is better than 100-0 chance, is what you're saying,
>>> right?  I'll have to agree.  I'd rather at least have a chance to
>>> change the outcome.
>>>
>> What part of kindergarten and armed teachers seems non-surreal to you?
>>
> I see no inconsistency.  No more than I see a fence around a play yard
> as inconsistent with a kindergarten.  As long as the intention is to
> protect, and defend, the children, and rational care is exercised.
> Remember, I grew up with guns in the house until I left home at age 18.
>  I do admit to being shot through the hand with my own air rifle, though.
>
That is not the kind of community environment most Americans would fine
reassuring or wholesome. Before that would happen, most would find a way
to home school.

Almost as bad as when I drilled a hole through my thumb.

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Re: Theater shooting in San Antonio.

Jean-Marc Desperrier-4
In reply to this post by clay-14
clay a écrit :
> Armed citizens are a deterrent.

Not to an insane nutcase. And the bad guy will always have a *bigger*
gun that you, it's the basic rule in his trade. And if he suspects
you're carrying a weapon, he will shoot you down from behind, he'll
never be stupid enough to give a chance.
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Re: Theater shooting in San Antonio.

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by Sailfish-2
On 12/19/2012 2:51 AM, Sailfish wrote:

> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
> 12/19/2012 12:19 AM:
>> On 12/18/2012 8:54 PM, Sailfish wrote:
>>> My bloviated meandering follows what [hidden email] graced us
>>> with on 12/18/2012 4:15 PM:
>>>> On 12/18/2012 2:22 PM On a whim, Sailfish pounded out on the keyboard
>>>>
>>>>> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
>>>>> 12/18/2012 2:00 PM:
>>>>>> On 12/18/2012 2:20 PM, Sailfish wrote:
>>>>>>> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
>>>>>>> 12/18/2012 11:56 AM:
>>>>>>>> http://www.theblaze.com/stories/man-attempts-to-open-fire-on-crowd-at-movie-theater-armed-off-duty-sheriffs-deputy-drops-him-with-one-bullet/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Don't do this in Texas, guys, it's likely to end badly.
>>>>>>> REF:
>>>>>>> http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#List_of_notable_U.S._school_attacks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But not always without innocent casualties.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, think how many he might have killed had he gotten started in a
>>>>>> theater...
>>>>>>
>>>>> Okay, and you should think about how many do get killed even when
>>>>> armed
>>>>> civilians are around and somehow don't stop the act. The point being,
>>>>> you're harboring a false sense of security if you believe anecdotal
>>>>> incidents of where this prevented such carnage would have prevented
>>>>> this
>>>>> incident. Sure, it could have, but it's just as likely that it
>>>>> wouldn't
>>>>> have.
>>>>
>>>> So, a 50-50 chance is better than 100-0 chance, is what you're saying,
>>>> right?  I'll have to agree.  I'd rather at least have a chance to
>>>> change the outcome.
>>>>
>>> What part of kindergarten and armed teachers seems non-surreal to you?
>>>
>> I see no inconsistency.  No more than I see a fence around a play yard
>> as inconsistent with a kindergarten.  As long as the intention is to
>> protect, and defend, the children, and rational care is exercised.
>> Remember, I grew up with guns in the house until I left home at age
>> 18.  I do admit to being shot through the hand with my own air rifle,
>> though.
>>
> That is not the kind of community environment most Americans would fine
> reassuring or wholesome. Before that would happen, most would find a way
> to home school.
>
> Almost as bad as when I drilled a hole through my thumb.
>
Ouch!  And just as stupid, in retrospect, I'll bet!  My wife once sewed
her finger up to the second knuckle on a machine at work.  Things like
that only take a second of distraction.
But my environment was rural, and things are MUCH different there.  Guns
are a tool, like a rake, or a hoe, or a shovel.  They have their uses in
that environment.

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Re: Theater shooting in San Antonio.

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by Jean-Marc Desperrier-4
On 12/19/2012 3:02 AM, Jean-Marc Desperrier wrote:
> clay a écrit :
>> Armed citizens are a deterrent.
>
> Not to an insane nutcase. And the bad guy will always have a *bigger*
> gun that you, it's the basic rule in his trade. And if he suspects
> you're carrying a weapon, he will shoot you down from behind, he'll
> never be stupid enough to give a chance.

Well, explain, if you can, why the vast majority of these multiple death
killing sprees have been at locations where the perp can reasonably
expect no one to be armed.  The correlation is only about 90%, but that
seems enough to me.
Some years back, before Texas allowed CHL, a guy shot up a cafeteria,
after watching carefully to see that the police had left.  Hasn't
happened again.
These guys may not care if they die, in fact most kill themselves, but
they sure don't want to be stopped until they have made an impression.

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Re: Theater shooting in San Antonio.

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by Jean-Marc Desperrier-4
On 12/19/2012 3:02 AM, Jean-Marc Desperrier wrote:
> clay a écrit :
>> Armed citizens are a deterrent.
>
> Not to an insane nutcase. And the bad guy will always have a *bigger*
> gun that you, it's the basic rule in his trade. And if he suspects
> you're carrying a weapon, he will shoot you down from behind, he'll
> never be stupid enough to give a chance.

 From an article I posted earlier in this thread:

Lott offers a final damning statistic: “With just one single exception,
the attack on congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson in 2011, every
public shooting since at least 1950 in the U.S. in which more than three
people have been killed has taken place where citizens are not allowed
to carry guns.”


Sounds like proof enough to me that they seek out areas where victims
will not be able to harm them.

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Re: Theater shooting in San Antonio.

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by »Q«
On 18.12.2012 18:59, »Q« wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 14:22:21 -0800
> Sailfish <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
>> 12/18/2012 2:00 PM:
>> > On 12/18/2012 2:20 PM, Sailfish wrote:  
>> >> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
>> >> 12/18/2012 11:56 AM:  
>> >>> http://www.theblaze.com/stories/man-attempts-to-open-fire-on-crowd-at-movie-theater-armed-off-duty-sheriffs-deputy-drops-him-with-one-bullet/ 
>> >>>
>> >>> Don't do this in Texas, guys, it's likely to end badly.  
>> >>
>> >> REF:
>> >> http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#List_of_notable_U.S._school_attacks 
>> >>
>> >> But not always without innocent casualties.
>> >>  
>> > Well, think how many he might have killed had he gotten started in
>> > a theater...
>> >  
>> Okay, and you should think about how many do get killed even when
>> armed civilians are around and somehow don't stop the act. The point
>> being, you're harboring a false sense of security if you believe
>> anecdotal incidents of where this prevented such carnage would have
>> prevented this incident. Sure, it could have, but it's just as likely
>> that it wouldn't have.
>
> Sometimes it's much more comforting to look at a single instance that
> fits a pre-existing view than to look at an aggregate picture.  The map
> at
> <http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/24/interactive-map-the-us-shooting-epidemic.html>
> shows 28 multiple-fatality shootings in Texas since 2005, with 188
> casualties including 90 fatalities.  Subtract Fort Hood, and that's 27
> incidents with 146 casualties including 78 fatalities.  I don't see an
> easy way to find out how much of that happened where guns can be
> carried legally.
>  
>

The criminal with the gun has the upper hand over the citizien with the
gun. Reason being is that the citizen with the gun thinks about what is
going to happen if he/she pulls the trigger whereas the criminal
doesn't. And in that split second, the criminal shoots first.

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Re: Theater shooting in San Antonio.

Was Greywolf
In reply to this post by Jean-Marc Desperrier-4
On 19/12/2012 4:02 AM, Jean-Marc Desperrier wrote:
> clay a écrit :
>> Armed citizens are a deterrent.
>
> Not to an insane nutcase. And the bad guy will always have a *bigger*
> gun that you, it's the basic rule in his trade. And if he suspects
> you're carrying a weapon, he will shoot you down from behind, he'll
> never be stupid enough to give a chance.

Yes, the "my (concealed) weapon is a deterrent" argument does tend to
ascribe too much rationality to the mentally ill killer, and far too
little to professional. But amusing as it may be to show that the
argument is stupid, it distracts from the issue central to mass killings.

IMO, the central issue here is the (luckily tiny minority) of mentally
ill cases that attempt to kill and occasionally succeed. The data show
that mass killers are highly unstable. (As are serial killers, but they
tend to plan and execute of their crimes very carefully, so they are
very hard to catch.) We can't guarantee 100% safety from the effects of
mental illness, but we can reduce the odds that mentally ill will
attempt to kill, and we can reduce  the odds that they can do major damage.

Reducing the odds of harm by a mentally ill person requires a more
complete and humane support system for the mentally ill, something that
costs loadsadough (assuming you can even get enough people to
self-select for the requisite professional training). Far too many
people will see such measures as "giving them something for nothing",
one of many reasons that politicians don't advocate for such support.

Reducing the potential damage requires control of weapons. A huge part
of gun-control is of course self-control, which begins with the
realisation that handling a weapon safely requires training. It also
requires suppressing some of one's desires in the interests of community
safety. The NRA at one time saw gun safety as their prime directive, but
their focus has shifted. For many rea$ons, politicians are afraid to
cross the NRA.

Have a good day.

--
Best,
Wolf K.
Gun owner and safety-training graduate
kirkwood40.blogspot.ca


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Re: Theater shooting in San Antonio.

Was Greywolf
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
On 19/12/2012 5:57 AM, Ron Hunter wrote:

> On 12/19/2012 3:02 AM, Jean-Marc Desperrier wrote:
>> clay a écrit :
>>> Armed citizens are a deterrent.
>>
>> Not to an insane nutcase. And the bad guy will always have a *bigger*
>> gun that you, it's the basic rule in his trade. And if he suspects
>> you're carrying a weapon, he will shoot you down from behind, he'll
>> never be stupid enough to give a chance.
>
> Well, explain, if you can, why the vast majority of these multiple death
> killing sprees have been at locations where the perp can reasonably
> expect no one to be armed.  The correlation is only about 90%, but that
> seems enough to me.

"Insane" does not equal "stupid". Just because someone acts on insane
motives doesn't mean he'll devise a stupid plan.

> Some years back, before Texas allowed CHL, a guy shot up a cafeteria,
> after watching carefully to see that the police had left.  Hasn't
> happened again.
> These guys may not care if they die, in fact most kill themselves, but
> they sure don't want to be stopped until they have made an impression.

Precisely. So if you up the ante in defending against the insane
killers, they will up the ante in planning the attack. Suppose all
schools are effectively defended against the kind of attack that Lanza
executed. What's the next level? Lanza wore a bullet proof vest,
something that mass killer of a few years or more ago did not do. IOW,
he had already upped the ante.

I'm not denying that defence is essential. But it can become an arms
race. It already has, IMO.

--
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Wolf K.

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Re: Theater shooting in San Antonio.

Was Greywolf
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
On 19/12/2012 6:09 AM, Ron Hunter wrote:

> On 12/19/2012 3:02 AM, Jean-Marc Desperrier wrote:
>> clay a écrit :
>>> Armed citizens are a deterrent.
>>
>> Not to an insane nutcase. And the bad guy will always have a *bigger*
>> gun that you, it's the basic rule in his trade. And if he suspects
>> you're carrying a weapon, he will shoot you down from behind, he'll
>> never be stupid enough to give a chance.
>
>  From an article I posted earlier in this thread:
>
> Lott offers a final damning statistic: “With just one single exception,
> the attack on congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson in 2011, every
> public shooting since at least 1950 in the U.S. in which more than three
> people have been killed has taken place where citizens are not allowed
> to carry guns.”
>
>
> Sounds like proof enough to me that they seek out areas where victims
> will not be able to harm them.

But there were people with weapons at the Giffords shooting. Why didn't
they stop the shooter before he killed or wounded so many people? He had
a Glock with a long clip IIRC. Unless you dropped him with one shot,
which is highly unlikely in such a scenario, he could and would continue
shooting as long as there were bullets in the clip.

It just takes too long to identify what's happening, figure out who's
the shooter, and respond. Several seconds, and all the while the shooter
is shooting. Just how fast can _you_ shoot a semi? I could do 3-4 with.
22 semi Remington many years ago (the gun was my brother's, lovely and
heavy, hooded sights, almost no recoil).

Compare the situation to driving, the most common dangerous situation.
If you're alert and primed, it will take you a second or longer to
respond to a danger. By the time you're our age, you've also thousands
of hours of driving, so that your response is largely automatic. You may
not even realise you reacted until afterwards. That's fast. You can't
react that fast in a Gifford type shooting. That' why there was so much
carnage.

Have a good day.

--
Best,
Wolf K.

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Re: Theater shooting in San Antonio.

clay-14
Was Greywolf wrote:

> On 19/12/2012 6:09 AM, Ron Hunter wrote:
>> On 12/19/2012 3:02 AM, Jean-Marc Desperrier wrote:
>>> clay a écrit :
>>>> Armed citizens are a deterrent.
>>>
>>> Not to an insane nutcase. And the bad guy will always have a *bigger*
>>> gun that you, it's the basic rule in his trade. And if he suspects
>>> you're carrying a weapon, he will shoot you down from behind, he'll
>>> never be stupid enough to give a chance.
>>
>>  From an article I posted earlier in this thread:
>>
>> Lott offers a final damning statistic: “With just one single exception,
>> the attack on congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson in 2011, every
>> public shooting since at least 1950 in the U.S. in which more than three
>> people have been killed has taken place where citizens are not allowed
>> to carry guns.”
>>
>>
>> Sounds like proof enough to me that they seek out areas where victims
>> will not be able to harm them.
>
> But there were people with weapons at the Giffords shooting. Why didn't
> they stop the shooter before he killed or wounded so many people? He had
> a Glock with a long clip IIRC. Unless you dropped him with one shot,
> which is highly unlikely in such a scenario, he could and would continue
> shooting as long as there were bullets in the clip.
>
> It just takes too long to identify what's happening, figure out who's
> the shooter, and respond. Several seconds, and all the while the shooter
> is shooting. Just how fast can _you_ shoot a semi? I could do 3-4 with.
> 22 semi Remington many years ago (the gun was my brother's, lovely and
> heavy, hooded sights, almost no recoil).
>
> Compare the situation to driving, the most common dangerous situation.
> If you're alert and primed, it will take you a second or longer to
> respond to a danger. By the time you're our age, you've also thousands
> of hours of driving, so that your response is largely automatic. You may
> not even realise you reacted until afterwards. That's fast. You can't
> react that fast in a Gifford type shooting. That' why there was so much
> carnage.
>
> Have a good day.
>

Compare the situation to driving.
Suppose the shooter had just driven his Bronco into the crowd at 60 mph.
(Then, to add a little Hollywood, got out and started shooting...)

and, it's not a 'clip', it's a magazine. The M1 had a 'clip'.

I do agree though, once the bullets start flying how do you tell the
cowboys from the indians?
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