Switching to Bazaar (bzr)

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
47 messages Options
123
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Switching to Bazaar (bzr)

Max Kanat-Alexander
        So, I've filed a bug for moving away from CVS, and probably to
bzr:

        https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=470570

        The bug itself contains the reasoning for why we'd pick bzr,
and you should read the whole Description of that bug before making any
comments here.

        However, this is the place to talk about the proposal, since
I'm sure that somebody somewhere will have opinions about it, and
I wanted to direct them here instead of in the bug, where we
should keep things to discussing the implementation of whatever we
do. :-)

        "CVS is great and we shouldn't move away from it," is an
argument that we are probably all guaranteed to ignore. :-)

        However, I'm open to arguments that we should move to some
*other* VCS, or talking about how the move to bzr should go, or
whatever. Honestly, I really like bzr, personally, and a lot of the
Bugzilla developers have experience with it, so convincing us to go
elsewhere could be difficult, but I'm not totally close-minded on the
issue personally, and I'm sure that the rest of the team isn't either.

        Anyhow, anybody who wants to chime in (even to say "Yeah, bzr
sounds great, +1!") is welcome to do so, here. :-)

        -Max
--
http://www.everythingsolved.com/
Competent, Friendly Bugzilla and Perl Services. Everything Else, too.
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Switching to Bazaar (bzr)

Mikhail Gusarov-3
Twas brillig at 10:57:02 20.12.2008 UTC-08 when [hidden email] did gyre and gimble:

 MK> However, I'm open to arguments that we should move to some *other*
 MK> VCS, or talking about how the move to bzr should go, or whatever.

In my opinion bzr is ridiculously slow. But as long as it is easy to
have a hg or git mirror, it really does not matter at all.

--
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Switching to Bazaar (bzr)

Max Kanat-Alexander
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 01:03:21 +0600 Mikhail Gusarov
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> In my opinion bzr is ridiculously slow.

        Have you used it lately? It's been perfectly fine for me, for
quite some time now--since 1.0, really, which was 10 major releases ago.
Try some of the latest releases.

        -Max
--
http://www.everythingsolved.com/
Competent, Friendly Bugzilla and Perl Services. Everything Else, too.
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Switching to Bazaar (bzr)

Jochen Wiedmann
In reply to this post by Max Kanat-Alexander
I must admit that I have experiences with neither. From my experiences
with switching from CVS to SVN, I'd like to bring up the question of
plugins for the major IDE's. IMO, SVN had a real lot of advantages
over CVS, but I had lost all the productivity advantages as long as I
had to switch environment for VCS actions.

Jochen
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Switching to Bazaar (bzr)

Max Kanat-Alexander
On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 20:08:44 +0100 "Jochen Wiedmann"
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'd like to bring up the question of plugins for the major IDE's.

        Oh, that's a good question. I suspect that a lot of us don't
use any of the major IDE's, though. They tend not to have very good
support for Perl or dynamic languages in general. When I do use an IDE,
I use Komodo (which is what I suspect many dynamic-language
programmers use when they use an IDE), and Komodo 5 does have Bazaar
support.

        -Max
--
http://www.everythingsolved.com/
Competent, Friendly Bugzilla and Perl Services. Everything Else, too.
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Switching to Bazaar (bzr)

bill barry
In reply to this post by Max Kanat-Alexander
I don't think the DVCS choice matters much, simply having local history
and being able to maintain forks (and patches like testopia or the bmo
patch) is too important to ignore.

Max Kanat-Alexander wrote:
> So, I've filed a bug for moving away from CVS, and probably to
> bzr:
>
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=470570

-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Switching to Bazaar (bzr)

Mikhail Gusarov-3
In reply to this post by Max Kanat-Alexander

Twas brillig at 11:05:00 20.12.2008 UTC-08 when [hidden email] did gyre and gimble:

 MK> Have you used it lately?

I do it every year after I hear "have you tried it lately?" again :)

 MK> It's been perfectly fine for me, for quite some time now--since
 MK> 1.0, really, which was 10 major releases ago.  Try some of the
 MK> latest releases.

1.10 is better than 1.5 I tested several days ago. Still 10min/2min for
remote/local cloning of whole Python repo, but it is tolerable (it was
25min/6min for 1.5). Painful (hg: 3min/13sec, git: 4.5min/10sec), but
tolerable.

Test code:
http://www.bitbucket.org/ArneBab/hg-vs-bzr-speedtest-unscientific/

--
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Switching to Bazaar (bzr)

Max Kanat-Alexander
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 02:54:23 +0600 Mikhail Gusarov
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> 1.10 is better than 1.5 I tested several days ago. Still 10min/2min
> for remote/local cloning of whole Python repo, but it is tolerable
> (it was 25min/6min for 1.5). Painful (hg: 3min/13sec, git:
> 4.5min/10sec), but tolerable.

        Yeah. Also, the python repo has 40,000 revisions, and we have
only about 7000. You can try the current bzr mirror of Bugzilla with:

        bzr://bzr.everythingsolved.com/bugzilla/trunk

        -Max
--
http://www.everythingsolved.com/
Competent, Friendly Bugzilla and Perl Services. Everything Else, too.
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Switching to Bazaar (bzr)

Vitaly Fedrushkov
In reply to this post by Max Kanat-Alexander
FAQ:

http://www.versioncontrolblog.com/comparison/Bazaar/CVS/Git/Mercurial/Subversion/index.html

For Windows users: Tortoisebzr is included with distribution.  But 1.10
binary not released yet.

How to emulate CVS sticky tags with Bazaar?  Already lacking them in
Subversion.

   Regards,
   Vitaly.
_______________________________________________
dev-apps-bugzilla mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-bugzilla
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Switching to Bazaar (bzr)

Cédric Corazza
In reply to this post by Max Kanat-Alexander
A localization point of view.

I would only have a regret as a localizer:
We currently have to deal with CVS (for 1.9.0 Gecko branch), HG (for
1.9.1 gecko branch), SVN for Mozilla Web files, and that would mean we
will have to deal now with a fourth VCS :-( .
Apart from the fact the dev team already dealt with bzr repos, are there
any other reasons to move to Bazaar?
Is Mercurial not an option, and if so why?
The multiplicity of tools is an obstacle for new locales to come.
Though this move is just about the Bugzilla Project, Bugzilla is part of
the Mozilla products.
I just wanted to state about this part of the move.

Cédric
_______________________________________________
dev-apps-bugzilla mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-bugzilla
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Switching to Bazaar (bzr)

Mikhail Gusarov-3

Twas brillig at 23:59:43 20.12.2008 UTC+01 when [hidden email] did gyre and gimble:

 CC> A localization point of view.

Something like http://transifex.org/ should help. However I'm not sure
is Transifex gettext-only, or can be set up to fetch different types of
to-be-translated files.

--
_______________________________________________
dev-apps-bugzilla mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-bugzilla
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Switching to Bazaar (bzr)

Gervase Markham
In reply to this post by Cédric Corazza
Cédric Corazza wrote:
> 1.9.1 gecko branch), SVN for Mozilla Web files, and that would mean we
> will have to deal now with a fourth VCS :-( .

I think this point is not to be underestimated. Currently, the Mozilla
project uses (IMO) too many different VCSes. How it got that way is
history, and we are currently in the middle of a transition, but it
would be good to work towards having fewer. CVS will die slowly, and
perhaps one day the SVN repo will move to Hg too. Adding a fourth VCS to
the mix certainly doesn't help this goal.

Justdave: does the IT team have any views on VCS consolidation, or is
the official line that "we'll support whatever people want to use"?

Gerv
_______________________________________________
dev-apps-bugzilla mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-bugzilla
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=$MSGRCPT>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Switching to Bazaar (bzr)

Max Kanat-Alexander
In reply to this post by Vitaly Fedrushkov
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 03:53:03 +0500 Vitaly Fedrushkov
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> How to emulate CVS sticky tags with Bazaar?

        bzr tag -r1234 some_tag

        bzr co -rtag:some_tag some/branch

        Works very nicely. :-)

        -Max
--
http://www.everythingsolved.com/
Competent, Friendly Bugzilla and Perl Services. Everything Else, too.
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Switching to Bazaar (bzr)

Max Kanat-Alexander
In reply to this post by Cédric Corazza
On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 23:59:43 +0100 Cédric Corazza
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Apart from the fact the dev team already dealt with bzr repos, are
> there any other reasons to move to Bazaar?

        http://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrVsHg is a fairly good explanation of
some of the advantages of Bzr over Hg.

> Is Mercurial not an option, and if so why?

        It's an option, it's just not the preferred option at the
moment, though we could possibly be convinced otherwise. I think bzr
has better architecture, is simpler, and has better prospects for
future improvement than Mercurial does (particularly given how quickly
and often bzr releases).

> The multiplicity of tools is an obstacle for new locales to come.
> Though this move is just about the Bugzilla Project, Bugzilla is part
> of the Mozilla products.
> I just wanted to state about this part of the move.

        Yeah, I understand, and I appreciate you bringing up the point.
I think that lots of people are experiencing this nowadays--for so
long, CVS was the de-facto standard, and then after that, there was only
SVN to replace it. But then suddenly there were several DVCSes, all at
once, to replace SVN & CVS, and none of them have really come out as a
clear standard. My understanding is that even with hg.mozilla.org, it's
not guaranteed that Mozilla is going to stay with it forever, only for
this Core development cycle.

        -Max
--
http://www.everythingsolved.com/
Competent, Friendly Bugzilla and Perl Services. Everything Else, too.
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Switching to Bazaar (bzr)

Frédéric Buclin
In reply to this post by Max Kanat-Alexander
Le 20. 12. 08 19:57, Max Kanat-Alexander a écrit :
> "CVS is great and we shouldn't move away from it," is an
> argument that we are probably all guaranteed to ignore. :-)

CVS is great....


> whatever. Honestly, I really like bzr, personally, and a lot of the
> Bugzilla developers have experience with it


Who are they, besides you and justdave?
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Switching to Bazaar (bzr)

tm-11
In reply to this post by Max Kanat-Alexander
On 20.12.2008 20:57, Max Kanat-Alexander wrote:
> However, this is the place to talk about the proposal, since

There's few utilities I'd like to still work without much complication
so I can still review and write patches for the Bugzilla Project. As
long these are addressed one way or another, I can be convinced to move
to bzr or some other CVS.

These are:
  1) "cvs update" to bring my landfill test instances up to date (and
show all conflicted and modified files),
  2) "cvs update -C" to blow away all modifications on an instance,
  3) "cvs diff" to make reviewable patches and see local changes,
  4) "bzpatch" to install patches from BMO,
  5) Landfill Patch Database Administration website and scripts still
functional so new test instances can be easily created for new branches and
  6) Bonsai and MXR utilities to view sources and their changes.
[7) Some other utility as I have a feeling that I'm forgetting something
important.]

As I currenly understand, bzr supports same command sets than cvs so
point 1 through 3 should work. And I'm sure you or someone else can fix
points 4 through 5 on landfill. That leaves point 6 that might or might
not be fixed with loggerhead (but this is not the most important point
for me anyway). Does MXR already support bzr?

> "CVS is great and we shouldn't move away from it," is an
> argument that we are probably all guaranteed to ignore. :-)

CVS is working just fine for me.

> However, I'm open to arguments that we should move to some
> *other* VCS, or talking about how the move to bzr should go, or

I do hope bzr's loggerhead that is supposed to replace Bonsai is much
more functional than the hg thing Mozilla uses is. It's so cumbersome to
use it that I simply can't get anything done with it. :(

So if there's no better implemention of Bonsai for Mercurial then I'd
vote against choosing it.
--
"Anything is possible but probabilities vary."
"Whatever. Life goes on." -Dark Angel

-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Switching to Bazaar (bzr)

bill barry
Teemu Mannermaa wrote:
> I do hope bzr's loggerhead that is supposed to replace Bonsai is much
> more functional than the hg thing Mozilla uses is. It's so cumbersome
> to use it that I simply can't get anything done with it. :(
>
> So if there's no better implemention of Bonsai for Mercurial then I'd
> vote against choosing it.

Are you looking for the ability to search history easier? I'll agree
that hgweb doesn't do that very well (that single textbox does work and
I think it accepts python regexes to search through history). However,
since history is local, hg comes with a command called "hg grep" which
is rather useful in searching through history (tortoisehg provides a
datamine feature to access this functionality through a gui). Also
something to consider is the "hg bisect" command which allows you to
find when a change appeared first through a interactive search.

What else does bonsai do that is missing in Mercurial?

I think bzr has pretty much the same functionality here anyways. Btw, if
that isn't enough, you can always register a branch at bitbucket
(www.bitbucket.org) for hg or launchpad for bzr (https://launchpad.net/)
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Switching to Bazaar (bzr)

tm-11
On 21.12.2008 17:07, Bill Barry wrote:
> Teemu Mannermaa wrote:
>> I do hope bzr's loggerhead that is supposed to replace Bonsai is much
>> more functional than the hg thing Mozilla uses is. It's so cumbersome
> What else does bonsai do that is missing in Mercurial?

What I have been trying to get from hqweb is a list of all changes
committed after a certain nightly or released version of FF/TB. It would
ideally list a date, complete description, list of changed files and has
a link to get a full diff (changeset?) of changes.

I can't see no way to have from and to date filters and while hqweb has
three or four different list formats none of them give what I want in
simple and clear way. Not to mention paging through a list is way too
complicated.

For Bugzilla I use changelog and blame output of Bonsai to see history
of one file. Not to mention http://www.bugzilla.org/status/changes.html 
is valuable information (this is also exactly what I miss for TB/FF).
--
"Anything is possible but probabilities vary."
"Whatever. Life goes on." -Dark Angel

-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Switching to Bazaar (bzr)

Max Kanat-Alexander
In reply to this post by Frédéric Buclin
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:59:06 +0100 Frédéric Buclin <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> Who are they, besides you and justdave?

        Well, you and bbaetz, and anybody else who's ever done work for
Everything Solved. :-)

        -Max
--
http://www.everythingsolved.com/
Competent, Friendly Bugzilla and Perl Services. Everything Else, too.
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Switching to Bazaar (bzr)

Max Kanat-Alexander
In reply to this post by tm-11
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:22:28 +0200 Teemu Mannermaa <[hidden email]> wrote:
>   1) "cvs update" to bring my landfill test instances up to date (and
> show all conflicted and modified files),

        bzr update

>   2) "cvs update -C" to blow away all modifications on an instance,

        bzr update
        bzr revert

>   3) "cvs diff" to make reviewable patches and see local changes,

        bzr diff

>   4) "bzpatch" to install patches from BMO,

        Easy enough to adapt, I'm rather fond of it too. Also, this
might work though I haven't tried:

        bzr patch http://some.url/

>   5) Landfill Patch Database Administration website and scripts still
> functional so new test instances can be easily created for new
> branches

        Ah, I'll add that to the bug, thanks. :-)

> 6) Bonsai

        Loggerhead: http://bzr.bugzilla.org/

        It also has some undocumented features, so if it's missing
something that you want, it's easy enough to ask the developers about
it (they hang out in #bzr on FreeNode).

> and MXR utilities to view sources and their changes.

        MXR isn't tied to any particular VCS, as far as I know.

        -Max
--
http://www.everythingsolved.com/
Competent, Friendly Bugzilla and Perl Services. Everything Else, too.
-
To view or change your list settings, click here:
<http://bugzilla.org/cgi-bin/mj_wwwusr?user=lists@...>
123