So what _is_ this Australis thing? (And, how about a "freeze/undo" option?)

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So what _is_ this Australis thing? (And, how about a "freeze/undo" option?)

J. P. Gilliver (John)
[Copied to and followups set to mozilla.general.]

I kept seeing glancing references to "Australis" here - usually as
neutral (i. e. not positive or negative), but hints that it's a Big
Change. Certainly, enough to make me check that I don't have Automatic
Updates set (I have "notify me", and have usually gone for them), and
think about backing up my profile again.

But I knew that if I asked, I'd just be told to Google it, so I have.
The three things that most of the reviews of it have mentioned seem to
be:
o rounded tabs
o a minimum width for tabs
o a different button (one with three bars on it rather than a cogwheel)
for accessing settings.

Well, rounded tabs I don't particularly want - I'm happy with the tabs
I've got, and think rounding their edges (they mean sloping edges to the
tabs) would waste horizontal space; but, it wouldn't bother me unduly. A
minimum width for tabs seems like a good idea (though some won't like
it), but tab Mix Plus gives me lots of variety in that area anyway (I
can set a minimum and maximum width, or have them autoadjust to the page
title, or I think other things), so again I don't need that, but
wouldn't be bothered by it. And a different settings-access button -
well, I don't have one - I get at settings via Tools, Options, since I
don't change things that often and would rather have the bar space - but
again I'm not bothered (it's probably hideable under Australis too
anyway).

However, obviously, there's more to Australis than these three
appearance things: general hints about changing how the user configures
things in a pretty major way (with strong implication, at least, in
several of the pages I looked at that there will be more restrictions on
how users will be able to configure things at all). Those, plus the
continued use of phrases like "user experience" (they'll be mentioning a
"journey" next, you just watch!), make me decidedly apprehensive, but:
we're all (or most of us anyway) resistant to change, and unlike many
here I don't think this is being made purely for the sake of change, but
with genuinely good intentions.

So could someone explain what Australis actually means? I realise it's
probably very difficult to explain something like this, which seems to
be a whole concept and approach, but I'd appreciate it if you'd try.
(Even if things like the head of the project wondering if "browser" is
still the right words to use, make me shudder a bit.)


The last but is a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I wonder if the developers
could consider providing some sort of snapshot capability whenever
there's a change (in the release channel) - i. e. a way of freezing a
copy of how a user has things set up now, but letting them upgrade - but
with the option of undoing, time-limited to three weeks if you think
that's a good idea, if they don't like the new version? I know there is
already "save profile" (though I don't know if that saves everything,
such as add-on configurations), but it's a bit more complex than it need
be, and the revert to previous version is certainly not trivial, as it
involves finding an installer for the previous version (many users will
have upgraded by clicking on the upgrade button [or letting it happen
automatically], so won't have that installer as such), and then making
that installer work with the saved profile, and removing the new version
(not necessarily in that order).

I say tongue-in-cheek because (a) making it a bit simpler [an "I wanna
go back!"* button!] would probably involve a fair bit of work (though
hopefully would only have to be done once!), and (b), of course, the
developers always think any new version is the best thing since sliced
bread, and won't understand any user not agreeing with that (and
certainly won't want to encourage reversion).

* (tm) The New Seekers ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHMqYaBbRTo
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

God must love the common man; He made so many of them.
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Re: So what _is_ this Australis thing? (And, how about a "freeze/undo" option?)

Desiree-11
On 8/10/2013 12:27 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

> [Copied to and followups set to mozilla.general.]
>
> I kept seeing glancing references to "Australis" here - usually as
> neutral (i. e. not positive or negative), but hints that it's a Big
> Change. Certainly, enough to make me check that I don't have Automatic
> Updates set (I have "notify me", and have usually gone for them), and
> think about backing up my profile again.
>
> But I knew that if I asked, I'd just be told to Google it, so I have.
> The three things that most of the reviews of it have mentioned seem to be:
> o rounded tabs
> o a minimum width for tabs
> o a different button (one with three bars on it rather than a cogwheel)
> for accessing settings.
>
> Well, rounded tabs I don't particularly want - I'm happy with the tabs
> I've got, and think rounding their edges (they mean sloping edges to the
> tabs) would waste horizontal space; but, it wouldn't bother me unduly. A
> minimum width for tabs seems like a good idea (though some won't like
> it), but tab Mix Plus gives me lots of variety in that area anyway (I
> can set a minimum and maximum width, or have them autoadjust to the page
> title, or I think other things), so again I don't need that, but
> wouldn't be bothered by it. And a different settings-access button -
> well, I don't have one - I get at settings via Tools, Options, since I
> don't change things that often and would rather have the bar space - but
> again I'm not bothered (it's probably hideable under Australis too anyway).
>
> However, obviously, there's more to Australis than these three
> appearance things: general hints about changing how the user configures
> things in a pretty major way (with strong implication, at least, in
> several of the pages I looked at that there will be more restrictions on
> how users will be able to configure things at all). Those, plus the
> continued use of phrases like "user experience" (they'll be mentioning a
> "journey" next, you just watch!), make me decidedly apprehensive, but:
> we're all (or most of us anyway) resistant to change, and unlike many
> here I don't think this is being made purely for the sake of change, but
> with genuinely good intentions.
>
> So could someone explain what Australis actually means?
> * (tm) The New Seekers ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHMqYaBbRTo

There is an extremely long thread at Mozillazine that will explain it
just fine...but you'll need many hours to read the whole thread.  Maybe
you already read it?  I got so depressed after several hours of reading
that I stopped only on page 10 I think.  What struck me the most was to
witness, for the first time since I joined Mozillazine in 2003, longtime
moderators and long time very loyal Fx posters at Mozillazine actually
seriously talking about forking Fx over this disaster that Australis
appears to be.   Usually mods and old time regulars there get very upset
with anyone who criticizes Fx yet here they were serious about something
as drastic as forking.

I'm just thankful that Fx 24 ESR that will be released next month will
not have Australis. That means one more year before I have to deal with
it.  If Australis is anything as drastic as Opera 15 then I won't get
it....I'll look for a fork.




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Re: So what _is_ this Australis thing? (And, how about a "freeze/undo" option?)

WaltS-2
In reply to this post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
On 08/10/2013 06:27 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

> [Copied to and followups set to mozilla.general.]
>
> I kept seeing glancing references to "Australis" here - usually as
> neutral (i. e. not positive or negative), but hints that it's a Big
> Change. Certainly, enough to make me check that I don't have Automatic
> Updates set (I have "notify me", and have usually gone for them), and
> think about backing up my profile again.
>
> But I knew that if I asked, I'd just be told to Google it, so I have.
> The three things that most of the reviews of it have mentioned seem to
> be:
> o rounded tabs
> o a minimum width for tabs
> o a different button (one with three bars on it rather than a cogwheel)
> for accessing settings.
>
> Well, rounded tabs I don't particularly want - I'm happy with the tabs
> I've got, and think rounding their edges (they mean sloping edges to the
> tabs) would waste horizontal space; but, it wouldn't bother me unduly. A
> minimum width for tabs seems like a good idea (though some won't like
> it), but tab Mix Plus gives me lots of variety in that area anyway (I
> can set a minimum and maximum width, or have them autoadjust to the page
> title, or I think other things), so again I don't need that, but
> wouldn't be bothered by it. And a different settings-access button -
> well, I don't have one - I get at settings via Tools, Options, since I
> don't change things that often and would rather have the bar space - but
> again I'm not bothered (it's probably hideable under Australis too
> anyway).
>
> However, obviously, there's more to Australis than these three
> appearance things: general hints about changing how the user configures
> things in a pretty major way (with strong implication, at least, in
> several of the pages I looked at that there will be more restrictions on
> how users will be able to configure things at all). Those, plus the
> continued use of phrases like "user experience" (they'll be mentioning a
> "journey" next, you just watch!), make me decidedly apprehensive, but:
> we're all (or most of us anyway) resistant to change, and unlike many
> here I don't think this is being made purely for the sake of change, but
> with genuinely good intentions.
>
> So could someone explain what Australis actually means? I realise it's
> probably very difficult to explain something like this, which seems to
> be a whole concept and approach, but I'd appreciate it if you'd try.
> (Even if things like the head of the project wondering if "browser" is
> still the right words to use, make me shudder a bit.)
>
>
> The last but is a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I wonder if the developers
> could consider providing some sort of snapshot capability whenever
> there's a change (in the release channel) - i. e. a way of freezing a
> copy of how a user has things set up now, but letting them upgrade - but
> with the option of undoing, time-limited to three weeks if you think
> that's a good idea, if they don't like the new version? I know there is
> already "save profile" (though I don't know if that saves everything,
> such as add-on configurations), but it's a bit more complex than it need
> be, and the revert to previous version is certainly not trivial, as it
> involves finding an installer for the previous version (many users will
> have upgraded by clicking on the upgrade button [or letting it happen
> automatically], so won't have that installer as such), and then making
> that installer work with the saved profile, and removing the new version
> (not necessarily in that order).
>
> I say tongue-in-cheek because (a) making it a bit simpler [an "I wanna
> go back!"* button!] would probably involve a fair bit of work (though
> hopefully would only have to be done once!), and (b), of course, the
> developers always think any new version is the best thing since sliced
> bread, and won't understand any user not agreeing with that (and
> certainly won't want to encourage reversion).
>
> * (tm) The New Seekers ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHMqYaBbRTo
>


Have no fear. Somebody is already working on an extension to "Go Back",
and Australis may take longer to be released than originally planned.

If you are really curious you could install the UX branch, and have a
look. I highly recommend a separate profile.

<http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/latest-ux/>

If not I can take some screenshots of my install on Linux, and post them
later, or look at the somewhat outdated Win7 design specs.

<http://people.mozilla.com/~shorlander/files/australis-design-specs/australis-design-specs-windows7-aero.html>

The Add-on bar is removed, and the only problems I have encountered so
far is the ABP and Forecastfox icons that were previously shown in the
Add-on bar are not appearing in the new Navigation bar location. Not
sure if that is the extension not being updated or Firefox.

You also have to enable the Menu Bar to get to some of the menu items
not in the new AppMenu button like Exit or Quit, Email Link and others.
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OT: New Seekers (tm)

Sailfish-4
In reply to this post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
My bloviated meandering follows what J. P. Gilliver (John) graced us
with on 8/10/2013 3:27 AM:

[snip /]
>
> * (tm) The New Seekers ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHMqYaBbRTo

John, are you part of The New Seekers?

--
Sailfish
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/lcey2ex
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Re: So what _is_ this Australis thing? (And, how about a "freeze/undo" option?)

Sailfish-4
In reply to this post by WaltS-2
My bloviated meandering follows what WaltS graced us with on 8/10/2013
6:13 AM:
> On 08/10/2013 06:27 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>> [Copied to and followups set to mozilla.general.]
>>

[snip]
>
> The Add-on bar is removed, and the only problems I have encountered so
> far is the ABP and Forecastfox icons that were previously shown in the
> Add-on bar are not appearing in the new Navigation bar location. Not
> sure if that is the extension not being updated or Firefox.
>
Hopefully, Status-4-Evar (S4E) will be updated to take that into account.

> You also have to enable the Menu Bar to get to some of the menu items
> not in the new AppMenu button like Exit or Quit, Email Link and others.

Exit/Quit won't be a biggy but I do use Email link quite frequently. I
guess they figure sending stuff to social networks is the new wave of
sharing stuff.

--
Sailfish
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/lcey2ex
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Re: So what _is_ this Australis thing? (And, how about a "freeze/undo" option?)

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
On 8/10/2013 5:27 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

> [Copied to and followups set to mozilla.general.]
>
> I kept seeing glancing references to "Australis" here - usually as
> neutral (i. e. not positive or negative), but hints that it's a Big
> Change. Certainly, enough to make me check that I don't have Automatic
> Updates set (I have "notify me", and have usually gone for them), and
> think about backing up my profile again.
>
> But I knew that if I asked, I'd just be told to Google it, so I have.
> The three things that most of the reviews of it have mentioned seem to be:
> o rounded tabs
> o a minimum width for tabs
> o a different button (one with three bars on it rather than a cogwheel)
> for accessing settings.
>
> Well, rounded tabs I don't particularly want - I'm happy with the tabs
> I've got, and think rounding their edges (they mean sloping edges to the
> tabs) would waste horizontal space; but, it wouldn't bother me unduly. A
> minimum width for tabs seems like a good idea (though some won't like
> it), but tab Mix Plus gives me lots of variety in that area anyway (I
> can set a minimum and maximum width, or have them autoadjust to the page
> title, or I think other things), so again I don't need that, but
> wouldn't be bothered by it. And a different settings-access button -
> well, I don't have one - I get at settings via Tools, Options, since I
> don't change things that often and would rather have the bar space - but
> again I'm not bothered (it's probably hideable under Australis too anyway).
>
> However, obviously, there's more to Australis than these three
> appearance things: general hints about changing how the user configures
> things in a pretty major way (with strong implication, at least, in
> several of the pages I looked at that there will be more restrictions on
> how users will be able to configure things at all). Those, plus the
> continued use of phrases like "user experience" (they'll be mentioning a
> "journey" next, you just watch!), make me decidedly apprehensive, but:
> we're all (or most of us anyway) resistant to change, and unlike many
> here I don't think this is being made purely for the sake of change, but
> with genuinely good intentions.
>
> So could someone explain what Australis actually means? I realise it's
> probably very difficult to explain something like this, which seems to
> be a whole concept and approach, but I'd appreciate it if you'd try.
> (Even if things like the head of the project wondering if "browser" is
> still the right words to use, make me shudder a bit.)
>
>
> The last but is a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I wonder if the developers
> could consider providing some sort of snapshot capability whenever
> there's a change (in the release channel) - i. e. a way of freezing a
> copy of how a user has things set up now, but letting them upgrade - but
> with the option of undoing, time-limited to three weeks if you think
> that's a good idea, if they don't like the new version? I know there is
> already "save profile" (though I don't know if that saves everything,
> such as add-on configurations), but it's a bit more complex than it need
> be, and the revert to previous version is certainly not trivial, as it
> involves finding an installer for the previous version (many users will
> have upgraded by clicking on the upgrade button [or letting it happen
> automatically], so won't have that installer as such), and then making
> that installer work with the saved profile, and removing the new version
> (not necessarily in that order).
>
> I say tongue-in-cheek because (a) making it a bit simpler [an "I wanna
> go back!"* button!] would probably involve a fair bit of work (though
> hopefully would only have to be done once!), and (b), of course, the
> developers always think any new version is the best thing since sliced
> bread, and won't understand any user not agreeing with that (and
> certainly won't want to encourage reversion).
>
> * (tm) The New Seekers ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHMqYaBbRTo

The best way I can describe Australis is, go look at Google Chrome.  All
done.

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Re: So what _is_ this Australis thing? (And, how about a "freeze/undo" option?)

WaltS-2
In reply to this post by Sailfish-4
On 08/10/2013 09:55 AM, Sailfish wrote:

> My bloviated meandering follows what WaltS graced us with on 8/10/2013
> 6:13 AM:
>> On 08/10/2013 06:27 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>>> [Copied to and followups set to mozilla.general.]
>>>
>
> [snip]
>>
>> The Add-on bar is removed, and the only problems I have encountered so
>> far is the ABP and Forecastfox icons that were previously shown in the
>> Add-on bar are not appearing in the new Navigation bar location. Not
>> sure if that is the extension not being updated or Firefox.
>>
> Hopefully, Status-4-Evar (S4E) will be updated to take that into account.

Just installed version 2013.05.14.21b into UX-Nightly and the options I
see to show status are "None", "Location Bar", "Toolbar", or "Popup".

My preference if I was to use this extension would be "Location Bar".

>
>> You also have to enable the Menu Bar to get to some of the menu items
>> not in the new AppMenu button like Exit or Quit, Email Link and others.
>
> Exit/Quit won't be a biggy but I do use Email link quite frequently. I
> guess they figure sending stuff to social networks is the new wave of
> sharing stuff.
>

Yep.

--
"Let's concentrate on the issues, not the emotions" - [hidden email]
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Re: So what _is_ this Australis thing? (And, how about a "freeze/undo" option?)

Sailfish-4
My bloviated meandering follows what WaltS graced us with on 8/10/2013
8:49 AM:

> On 08/10/2013 09:55 AM, Sailfish wrote:
>> My bloviated meandering follows what WaltS graced us with on 8/10/2013
>> 6:13 AM:
>>> On 08/10/2013 06:27 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>>>> [Copied to and followups set to mozilla.general.]
>>>>
>>
>> [snip]
>>>
>>> The Add-on bar is removed, and the only problems I have encountered so
>>> far is the ABP and Forecastfox icons that were previously shown in the
>>> Add-on bar are not appearing in the new Navigation bar location. Not
>>> sure if that is the extension not being updated or Firefox.
>>>
>> Hopefully, Status-4-Evar (S4E) will be updated to take that into account.
>
> Just installed version 2013.05.14.21b into UX-Nightly and the options I
> see to show status are "None", "Location Bar", "Toolbar", or "Popup".
>
> My preference if I was to use this extension would be "Location Bar".
>
My location bar is already crowded and I use Forecastfox
(https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/forecastfox-weather/?src=userprofile)
which adds 6 icon sets for display (3 of which are fairly wide.) I'm
busy with upgrading my themes for the 24.0b1 changes but if I get a
chance, I'll take a look-see at the Nightly.

[snip /]

--
Sailfish
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/lcey2ex
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Re: So what _is_ this Australis thing? (And, how about a "freeze/undo" option?)

WaltS-2
On 08/10/2013 12:39 PM, Sailfish wrote:

> My bloviated meandering follows what WaltS graced us with on 8/10/2013
> 8:49 AM:
>> On 08/10/2013 09:55 AM, Sailfish wrote:
>>> My bloviated meandering follows what WaltS graced us with on 8/10/2013
>>> 6:13 AM:
>>>> On 08/10/2013 06:27 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>>>>> [Copied to and followups set to mozilla.general.]
>>>>>
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>> The Add-on bar is removed, and the only problems I have encountered so
>>>> far is the ABP and Forecastfox icons that were previously shown in the
>>>> Add-on bar are not appearing in the new Navigation bar location. Not
>>>> sure if that is the extension not being updated or Firefox.
>>>>
>>> Hopefully, Status-4-Evar (S4E) will be updated to take that into account.
>>
>> Just installed version 2013.05.14.21b into UX-Nightly and the options I
>> see to show status are "None", "Location Bar", "Toolbar", or "Popup".
>>
>> My preference if I was to use this extension would be "Location Bar".
>>
> My location bar is already crowded and I use Forecastfox
> (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/forecastfox-weather/?src=userprofile)
> which adds 6 icon sets for display (3 of which are fairly wide.) I'm
> busy with upgrading my themes for the 24.0b1 changes but if I get a
> chance, I'll take a look-see at the Nightly.
>
> [snip /]
>

If I can figure out why my images are not uploading to Imgur, I have
some screenshots for Linux, should be pretty similar to Windows.

Probably will be a separate post.

--
"Let's concentrate on the issues, not the emotions." - Bob from
fedoraforums.org
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Re: So what _is_ this Australis thing? (And, how about a "freeze/undo" option?)

PhillipJones-2
In reply to this post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

> [Copied to and followups set to mozilla.general.]
>
> I kept seeing glancing references to "Australis" here - usually as
> neutral (i. e. not positive or negative), but hints that it's a Big
> Change. Certainly, enough to make me check that I don't have Automatic
> Updates set (I have "notify me", and have usually gone for them), and
> think about backing up my profile again.
>
> But I knew that if I asked, I'd just be told to Google it, so I have.
> The three things that most of the reviews of it have mentioned seem to be:
> o rounded tabs
> o a minimum width for tabs
> o a different button (one with three bars on it rather than a cogwheel)
> for accessing settings.
>
> Well, rounded tabs I don't particularly want - I'm happy with the tabs
> I've got, and think rounding their edges (they mean sloping edges to the
> tabs) would waste horizontal space; but, it wouldn't bother me unduly. A
> minimum width for tabs seems like a good idea (though some won't like
> it), but tab Mix Plus gives me lots of variety in that area anyway (I
> can set a minimum and maximum width, or have them autoadjust to the page
> title, or I think other things), so again I don't need that, but
> wouldn't be bothered by it. And a different settings-access button -
> well, I don't have one - I get at settings via Tools, Options, since I
> don't change things that often and would rather have the bar space - but
> again I'm not bothered (it's probably hideable under Australis too anyway).
>
> However, obviously, there's more to Australis than these three
> appearance things: general hints about changing how the user configures
> things in a pretty major way (with strong implication, at least, in
> several of the pages I looked at that there will be more restrictions on
> how users will be able to configure things at all). Those, plus the
> continued use of phrases like "user experience" (they'll be mentioning a
> "journey" next, you just watch!), make me decidedly apprehensive, but:
> we're all (or most of us anyway) resistant to change, and unlike many
> here I don't think this is being made purely for the sake of change, but
> with genuinely good intentions.
>
> So could someone explain what Australis actually means? I realise it's
> probably very difficult to explain something like this, which seems to
> be a whole concept and approach, but I'd appreciate it if you'd try.
> (Even if things like the head of the project wondering if "browser" is
> still the right words to use, make me shudder a bit.)
>
>
> The last but is a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I wonder if the developers
> could consider providing some sort of snapshot capability whenever
> there's a change (in the release channel) - i. e. a way of freezing a
> copy of how a user has things set up now, but letting them upgrade - but
> with the option of undoing, time-limited to three weeks if you think
> that's a good idea, if they don't like the new version? I know there is
> already "save profile" (though I don't know if that saves everything,
> such as add-on configurations), but it's a bit more complex than it need
> be, and the revert to previous version is certainly not trivial, as it
> involves finding an installer for the previous version (many users will
> have upgraded by clicking on the upgrade button [or letting it happen
> automatically], so won't have that installer as such), and then making
> that installer work with the saved profile, and removing the new version
> (not necessarily in that order).
>
> I say tongue-in-cheek because (a) making it a bit simpler [an "I wanna
> go back!"* button!] would probably involve a fair bit of work (though
> hopefully would only have to be done once!), and (b), of course, the
> developers always think any new version is the best thing since sliced
> bread, and won't understand any user not agreeing with that (and
> certainly won't want to encourage reversion).
>
> * (tm) The New Seekers ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHMqYaBbRTo
I've said time an again that Mozilla want to copy as closely as possible
Google Chrome. look like my predictions are coming true. The two worse
web browser around pre usability stand point is Chrome and Safari.

--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.      "If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.net    mailto:[hidden email]
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Re: So what _is_ this Australis thing? (And, how about a "freeze/undo" option?)

Felixx-2
In reply to this post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:[hidden email]...

> [Copied to and followups set to mozilla.general.]
>
> I kept seeing glancing references to "Australis" here - usually as neutral
> (i. e. not positive or negative), but hints that it's a Big Change.
> Certainly, enough to make me check that I don't have Automatic Updates set
> (I have "notify me", and have usually gone for them), and think about
> backing up my profile again.
>
> But I knew that if I asked, I'd just be told to Google it, so I have. The
> three things that most of the reviews of it have mentioned seem to be:
> o rounded tabs
> o a minimum width for tabs
> o a different button (one with three bars on it rather than a cogwheel)
> for accessing settings.
>
> Well, rounded tabs I don't particularly want - I'm happy with the tabs
> I've got, and think rounding their edges (they mean sloping edges to the
> tabs) would waste horizontal space; but, it wouldn't bother me unduly. A
> minimum width for tabs seems like a good idea (though some won't like it),
> but tab Mix Plus gives me lots of variety in that area anyway (I can set a
> minimum and maximum width, or have them autoadjust to the page title, or I
> think other things), so again I don't need that, but wouldn't be bothered
> by it. And a different settings-access button - well, I don't have one - I
> get at settings via Tools, Options, since I don't change things that often
> and would rather have the bar space - but again I'm not bothered (it's
> probably hideable under Australis too anyway).
>
> However, obviously, there's more to Australis than these three appearance
> things: general hints about changing how the user configures things in a
> pretty major way (with strong implication, at least, in several of the
> pages I looked at that there will be more restrictions on how users will
> be able to configure things at all). Those, plus the continued use of
> phrases like "user experience" (they'll be mentioning a "journey" next,
> you just watch!), make me decidedly apprehensive, but: we're all (or most
> of us anyway) resistant to change, and unlike many here I don't think this
> is being made purely for the sake of change, but with genuinely good
> intentions.
>
> So could someone explain what Australis actually means? I realise it's
> probably very difficult to explain something like this, which seems to be
> a whole concept and approach, but I'd appreciate it if you'd try. (Even if
> things like the head of the project wondering if "browser" is still the
> right words to use, make me shudder a bit.)
>
>
> The last but is a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I wonder if the developers
> could consider providing some sort of snapshot capability whenever there's
> a change (in the release channel) - i. e. a way of freezing a copy of how
> a user has things set up now, but letting them upgrade - but with the
> option of undoing, time-limited to three weeks if you think that's a good
> idea, if they don't like the new version? I know there is already "save
> profile" (though I don't know if that saves everything, such as add-on
> configurations), but it's a bit more complex than it need be, and the
> revert to previous version is certainly not trivial, as it involves
> finding an installer for the previous version (many users will have
> upgraded by clicking on the upgrade button [or letting it happen
> automatically], so won't have that installer as such), and then making
> that installer work with the saved profile, and removing the new version
> (not necessarily in that order).
>
> I say tongue-in-cheek because (a) making it a bit simpler [an "I wanna go
> back!"* button!] would probably involve a fair bit of work (though
> hopefully would only have to be done once!), and (b), of course, the
> developers always think any new version is the best thing since sliced
> bread, and won't understand any user not agreeing with that (and certainly
> won't want to encourage reversion).

It's probably the end of Firefox... Actually version 22 is probably the last
one for me. I'm refusing the 23 version because of the tab thingie. Nothing
they're doing is for the better. Every new version only creates more
problems. Enough is enough.


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Re: So what _is_ this Australis thing? (And, how about a "freeze/undo" option?)

Sailfish-4
My bloviated meandering follows what Felixx graced us with on 8/10/2013
10:34 AM:

> "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
> news:[hidden email]...
>> [Copied to and followups set to mozilla.general.]
>>
>> I kept seeing glancing references to "Australis" here - usually as neutral
>> (i. e. not positive or negative), but hints that it's a Big Change.
>> Certainly, enough to make me check that I don't have Automatic Updates set
>> (I have "notify me", and have usually gone for them), and think about
>> backing up my profile again.
>>
>> But I knew that if I asked, I'd just be told to Google it, so I have. The
>> three things that most of the reviews of it have mentioned seem to be:
>> o rounded tabs
>> o a minimum width for tabs
>> o a different button (one with three bars on it rather than a cogwheel)
>> for accessing settings.
>>
>> Well, rounded tabs I don't particularly want - I'm happy with the tabs
>> I've got, and think rounding their edges (they mean sloping edges to the
>> tabs) would waste horizontal space; but, it wouldn't bother me unduly. A
>> minimum width for tabs seems like a good idea (though some won't like it),
>> but tab Mix Plus gives me lots of variety in that area anyway (I can set a
>> minimum and maximum width, or have them autoadjust to the page title, or I
>> think other things), so again I don't need that, but wouldn't be bothered
>> by it. And a different settings-access button - well, I don't have one - I
>> get at settings via Tools, Options, since I don't change things that often
>> and would rather have the bar space - but again I'm not bothered (it's
>> probably hideable under Australis too anyway).
>>
>> However, obviously, there's more to Australis than these three appearance
>> things: general hints about changing how the user configures things in a
>> pretty major way (with strong implication, at least, in several of the
>> pages I looked at that there will be more restrictions on how users will
>> be able to configure things at all). Those, plus the continued use of
>> phrases like "user experience" (they'll be mentioning a "journey" next,
>> you just watch!), make me decidedly apprehensive, but: we're all (or most
>> of us anyway) resistant to change, and unlike many here I don't think this
>> is being made purely for the sake of change, but with genuinely good
>> intentions.
>>
>> So could someone explain what Australis actually means? I realise it's
>> probably very difficult to explain something like this, which seems to be
>> a whole concept and approach, but I'd appreciate it if you'd try. (Even if
>> things like the head of the project wondering if "browser" is still the
>> right words to use, make me shudder a bit.)
>>
>>
>> The last but is a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I wonder if the developers
>> could consider providing some sort of snapshot capability whenever there's
>> a change (in the release channel) - i. e. a way of freezing a copy of how
>> a user has things set up now, but letting them upgrade - but with the
>> option of undoing, time-limited to three weeks if you think that's a good
>> idea, if they don't like the new version? I know there is already "save
>> profile" (though I don't know if that saves everything, such as add-on
>> configurations), but it's a bit more complex than it need be, and the
>> revert to previous version is certainly not trivial, as it involves
>> finding an installer for the previous version (many users will have
>> upgraded by clicking on the upgrade button [or letting it happen
>> automatically], so won't have that installer as such), and then making
>> that installer work with the saved profile, and removing the new version
>> (not necessarily in that order).
>>
>> I say tongue-in-cheek because (a) making it a bit simpler [an "I wanna go
>> back!"* button!] would probably involve a fair bit of work (though
>> hopefully would only have to be done once!), and (b), of course, the
>> developers always think any new version is the best thing since sliced
>> bread, and won't understand any user not agreeing with that (and certainly
>> won't want to encourage reversion).
>
> It's probably the end of Firefox... Actually version 22 is probably the last
> one for me. I'm refusing the 23 version because of the tab thingie. Nothing
> they're doing is for the better. Every new version only creates more
> problems. Enough is enough.
>
If you're looking for a browser where the UI remains the same (mostly)
and the rendering engine stays current, your only other alternative is
Seamonkey. Every other browser, including IE, are in constinual change mode.

--
Sailfish
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/lcey2ex
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Re: So what _is_ this Australis thing? (And, how about a "freeze/undo" option?)

PhillipJones-2
Sailfish wrote:

> My bloviated meandering follows what Felixx graced us with on 8/10/2013
> 10:34 AM:
>> "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
>> news:[hidden email]...
>>> [Copied to and followups set to mozilla.general.]
>>>
>>> I kept seeing glancing references to "Australis" here - usually as
>>> neutral (i. e. not positive or negative), but hints that it's a Big
>>> Change. Certainly, enough to make me check that I don't have
>>> Automatic Updates set (I have "notify me", and have usually gone for
>>> them), and think about backing up my profile again.
>>>
>>> But I knew that if I asked, I'd just be told to Google it, so I have.
>>> The three things that most of the reviews of it have mentioned seem
>>> to be:
>>> o rounded tabs
>>> o a minimum width for tabs
>>> o a different button (one with three bars on it rather than a
>>> cogwheel) for accessing settings.
>>>
>>> Well, rounded tabs I don't particularly want - I'm happy with the
>>> tabs I've got, and think rounding their edges (they mean sloping
>>> edges to the tabs) would waste horizontal space; but, it wouldn't
>>> bother me unduly. A minimum width for tabs seems like a good idea
>>> (though some won't like it), but tab Mix Plus gives me lots of
>>> variety in that area anyway (I can set a minimum and maximum width,
>>> or have them autoadjust to the page title, or I think other things),
>>> so again I don't need that, but wouldn't be bothered by it. And a
>>> different settings-access button - well, I don't have one - I get at
>>> settings via Tools, Options, since I don't change things that often
>>> and would rather have the bar space - but again I'm not bothered
>>> (it's probably hideable under Australis too anyway).
>>>
>>> However, obviously, there's more to Australis than these three
>>> appearance things: general hints about changing how the user
>>> configures things in a pretty major way (with strong implication, at
>>> least, in several of the pages I looked at that there will be more
>>> restrictions on how users will be able to configure things at all).
>>> Those, plus the continued use of phrases like "user experience"
>>> (they'll be mentioning a "journey" next, you just watch!), make me
>>> decidedly apprehensive, but: we're all (or most of us anyway)
>>> resistant to change, and unlike many here I don't think this is being
>>> made purely for the sake of change, but with genuinely good intentions.
>>>
>>> So could someone explain what Australis actually means? I realise
>>> it's probably very difficult to explain something like this, which
>>> seems to be a whole concept and approach, but I'd appreciate it if
>>> you'd try. (Even if things like the head of the project wondering if
>>> "browser" is still the right words to use, make me shudder a bit.)
>>>
>>>
>>> The last but is a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I wonder if the developers
>>> could consider providing some sort of snapshot capability whenever
>>> there's a change (in the release channel) - i. e. a way of freezing a
>>> copy of how a user has things set up now, but letting them upgrade -
>>> but with the option of undoing, time-limited to three weeks if you
>>> think that's a good idea, if they don't like the new version? I know
>>> there is already "save profile" (though I don't know if that saves
>>> everything, such as add-on configurations), but it's a bit more
>>> complex than it need be, and the revert to previous version is
>>> certainly not trivial, as it involves finding an installer for the
>>> previous version (many users will have upgraded by clicking on the
>>> upgrade button [or letting it happen automatically], so won't have
>>> that installer as such), and then making that installer work with the
>>> saved profile, and removing the new version (not necessarily in that
>>> order).
>>>
>>> I say tongue-in-cheek because (a) making it a bit simpler [an "I
>>> wanna go back!"* button!] would probably involve a fair bit of work
>>> (though hopefully would only have to be done once!), and (b), of
>>> course, the developers always think any new version is the best thing
>>> since sliced bread, and won't understand any user not agreeing with
>>> that (and certainly won't want to encourage reversion).
>>
>> It's probably the end of Firefox... Actually version 22 is probably
>> the last one for me. I'm refusing the 23 version because of the tab
>> thingie. Nothing they're doing is for the better. Every new version
>> only creates more problems. Enough is enough.
> If you're looking for a browser where the UI remains the same (mostly)
> and the rendering engine stays current, your only other alternative is
> Seamonkey. Every other browser, including IE, are in constinual change
> mode.
>

I hope the SeaMonkey People don't lose there mind and go this route.

Great Moogly-Oogly! what a disaster.

--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.      "If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.net    mailto:[hidden email]
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Re: So what _is_ this Australis thing? (And, how about a "freeze/undo" option?)

WaltS-2
On 08/10/2013 02:29 PM, PhillipJones wrote:
> Sailfish wrote:
>> My bloviated meandering follows what Felixx graced us with on 8/10/2013
>> 10:34 AM:

<snip>

>>>
>>> It's probably the end of Firefox... Actually version 22 is probably
>>> the last one for me. I'm refusing the 23 version because of the tab
>>> thingie. Nothing they're doing is for the better. Every new version
>>> only creates more problems. Enough is enough.

>> If you're looking for a browser where the UI remains the same (mostly)
>> and the rendering engine stays current, your only other alternative is
>> Seamonkey. Every other browser, including IE, are in constinual change
>> mode.
>>
>
> I hope the SeaMonkey People don't lose there mind and go this route.
>
> Great Moogly-Oogly! what a disaster.
>


I know! Talk about disasters, cars don't have fins anymore.

What is your issue with Australis?

I'm sure you have investigated it thoroughly before forming an opinion.


--
"Let's concentrate on the issues, not the emotions." - Bob from
fedoraforums.org
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Re: So what _is_ this Australis thing? (And, how about a "freeze/undo" option?)

»Q«
In reply to this post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In <news:[hidden email]>,
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So could someone explain what Australis actually means?

Not me, but here's a download link:
<https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/latest-ux/>

> The last but is a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I wonder if the developers
> could consider providing some sort of snapshot capability whenever
> there's a change (in the release channel) - i. e. a way of freezing a
> copy of how a user has things set up now, but letting them upgrade -
> but with the option of undoing, time-limited to three weeks if you
> think that's a good idea, if they don't like the new version?

A copy of the profile is made when a user uses the "Reset Firefox"
feature, and I've seen some talk about making the process of restoring
it easier.  Currently, to restore it, the user has to copy the entire
directory back to where it care from, using whatever tools the OS
provides.  There's no way they'd make that part of some UI designed to
help people run old versions, though.
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Re: So what _is_ this Australis thing? (And, how about a "freeze/undo" option?)

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by PhillipJones-2
On 8/10/2013 12:30 PM, PhillipJones wrote:
>>
>> * (tm) The New Seekers ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHMqYaBbRTo
> I've said time an again that Mozilla want to copy as closely as possible
> Google Chrome. look like my predictions are coming true. The two worse
> web browser around pre usability stand point is Chrome and Safari.
>
Add Opera's latest effort to that list.
The problem is that everyone seems to be going to the minimalist UI.
Maybe it is time someone bucked the trend, and maintained a UI that a
person can USE, rather than just looking at whatever the website wants
to push onto them, full of popups, slide ups, outs, and downs, and
toolbars no one wants on top, and/or on bottom.  It's enough to drive
one away from the internet, almost.

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Re: So what _is_ this Australis thing? (And, how about a "freeze/undo" option?)

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by WaltS-2
On 8/10/2013 1:51 PM, WaltS wrote:

> On 08/10/2013 02:29 PM, PhillipJones wrote:
>> Sailfish wrote:
>>> My bloviated meandering follows what Felixx graced us with on 8/10/2013
>>> 10:34 AM:
>
> <snip>
>
>>>>
>>>> It's probably the end of Firefox... Actually version 22 is probably
>>>> the last one for me. I'm refusing the 23 version because of the tab
>>>> thingie. Nothing they're doing is for the better. Every new version
>>>> only creates more problems. Enough is enough.
>
>>> If you're looking for a browser where the UI remains the same (mostly)
>>> and the rendering engine stays current, your only other alternative is
>>> Seamonkey. Every other browser, including IE, are in constinual change
>>> mode.
>>>
>>
>> I hope the SeaMonkey People don't lose there mind and go this route.
>>
>> Great Moogly-Oogly! what a disaster.
>>
>
>
> I know! Talk about disasters, cars don't have fins anymore.
>
> What is your issue with Australis?
>
> I'm sure you have investigated it thoroughly before forming an opinion.
>
>
Same as my objection to Windows 8. Change for the sake of change, and
failure to maintain the basics of prior experience.  How does this
improve the user experience?  And how does it make the program work
better, faster, and more reliably?  How much does it confuse the old
user?  What does it do that previous versions didn't?  ANY change should
have a demonstrable ROI.  Otherwise, the user will just reject it.

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Re: So what _is_ this Australis thing? (And, how about a "freeze/undo" option?)

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by »Q«
On 8/10/2013 6:00 PM, »Q« wrote:

> In <news:[hidden email]>,
> "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> So could someone explain what Australis actually means?
>
> Not me, but here's a download link:
> <https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/latest-ux/>
>
>> The last but is a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I wonder if the developers
>> could consider providing some sort of snapshot capability whenever
>> there's a change (in the release channel) - i. e. a way of freezing a
>> copy of how a user has things set up now, but letting them upgrade -
>> but with the option of undoing, time-limited to three weeks if you
>> think that's a good idea, if they don't like the new version?
>
> A copy of the profile is made when a user uses the "Reset Firefox"
> feature, and I've seen some talk about making the process of restoring
> it easier.  Currently, to restore it, the user has to copy the entire
> directory back to where it care from, using whatever tools the OS
> provides.  There's no way they'd make that part of some UI designed to
> help people run old versions, though.
>
I am pretty sure that users of nightly versions would LOVE a 'revert'
button.  Some nightlies are nightmarelies?

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Re: So what _is_ this Australis thing? (And, how about a "freeze/undo" option?)

WaltS-2
On 08/10/2013 07:12 PM, Ron Hunter wrote:

> On 8/10/2013 6:00 PM, »Q« wrote:
>> In <news:[hidden email]>,
>> "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> So could someone explain what Australis actually means?
>>
>> Not me, but here's a download link:
>> <https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/latest-ux/>
>>
>>> The last but is a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I wonder if the developers
>>> could consider providing some sort of snapshot capability whenever
>>> there's a change (in the release channel) - i. e. a way of freezing a
>>> copy of how a user has things set up now, but letting them upgrade -
>>> but with the option of undoing, time-limited to three weeks if you
>>> think that's a good idea, if they don't like the new version?
>>
>> A copy of the profile is made when a user uses the "Reset Firefox"
>> feature, and I've seen some talk about making the process of restoring
>> it easier.  Currently, to restore it, the user has to copy the entire
>> directory back to where it care from, using whatever tools the OS
>> provides.  There's no way they'd make that part of some UI designed to
>> help people run old versions, though.
>>
> I am pretty sure that users of nightly versions would LOVE a 'revert'
> button.  Some nightlies are nightmarelies?
>


Nightly and Aurora are "experimental and may be unstable".

--
"Let's concentrate on the issues, not the emotions." - Bob from
fedoraforums.org
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Re: So what _is_ this Australis thing? (And, how about a "freeze/undo" option?)

»Q«
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
In <news:[hidden email]>,
Ron Hunter <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The problem is that everyone seems to be going to the minimalist UI.
> Maybe it is time someone bucked the trend, and maintained a UI that a
> person can USE rather than just looking at whatever the website wants
> to push onto them,

People use browsers so that they can play its buttons, they them to
view whatever is available at web sites.  For people who do want a
busybox UI, there's SeaMonkey.

> full of popups, slide ups, outs, and downs, and toolbars no one
> wants on top, and/or on bottom.  It's enough to drive one away from
> the internet, almost.

Sounds awful.  I'm glad I don't have any of those problems.

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