Sign something important: Manifesto Election without Lula is fraud

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Sign something important: Manifesto Election without Lula is fraud

Balaco ocalaB
> The attempt to schedule the date of the trial of Lula's appeal for
> the 24th of January is empty of legality. It is purely an act of
> persecution of the most popular Brazilian leader. The recourse to
> resort to spurious expedient to intervene in the electoral process
> happens because the coup of Dilma's Impeachment did not generate a
> political regime of lasting conservative stability.
>
> The strategic plan underway, following Dilma's removal from the
> presidency, cuts workers' rights, threatens public pensions,
> privatizes Petrobras, Eletrobras and public banks, and abandons the
> active and proud foreign policy.
>
> The labor reform and the limit of expenditure did not attract the
> promised foreign investments, which could support the campaign for a
> government aligned with neoliberalism in 2018. In the face of
> unpopularity, these sectors have failed to build, so far, a viable
> candidate for president.
>
> Lula grows in the polls in all scenarios in the first and the second
> rounds, and can even win in the first round. The scenario of
> overwhelming victory of Lula would mean the failure of the coup and
> would enable the opening of a new political cycle.
>
> Hence, anything goes in the plot to prevent Lula's candidature:
> condemnation in the Porto Alegre court, the creation of a
> semi-parliament and the postponement of the elections. None of the
> listed actions is out of question. They build up the evil arsenal of
> the political forces that do not value democracy.
>
> A persecution entirely political, which will only be defeated on the
> political ground. More than a tactical or electoral problem, the
> victory or defeat in this fight will have strategic and long-term
> consequences.
>
> Brazil is experiencing a time of crossroads: either restore social
> rights and the democratic rule of law or be defeated and watch the
> final implementation of a capitalist society without regulations,
> based on the super-exploitation of workers.
>
> This type of society requires a State reinforced with instruments of
> exception to suppress universities, intellectuals, workers, women,
> youth, the poor, the black people. Ultimately, all the exploited and
> oppressed that rise up against the new system.
>
> Thus, the issue of the persecution of Lula does not refer only to the
> Workers Party and the left, but to all Brazilian citizens. As never
> before in our generation of fighters, what is at stake is the future
> of democracy.

You may sign (or reread) the petition of this manifesto here:

https://www.change.org/p/sociedade-brasileira-em-defesa-do-direito-de-lula-ser-candidato-a-presidente-do-brasil?utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition

If you decide to do that, I thank you very much.


--
=
     If this message and others are off-topic,
     disconsider that part of it, or ask it to be
     moved to another group. If someone replied
     here, my opinion is that there is no problem
     with that - a problem is something that is
     really rare, IMO.
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Re: Sign something important: Manifesto Election without Lula is fraud

Alexander Yudenitsch
Balaco ocalaB wrote, on 09 Jan 18 19:54:

I won't quote the ready-made text here, but I do resent, very much,
snyone trying to use this group for political purposes, specially when
they involve a (IMHO) shady politician who is trying to get people to
put pressure on the only institution that is capable of judging him to
the full force of the law, and which already has condemned him after a
(very) long due process and judgement -- but, as I said, I'd rather none
of this became mixed up with Mozilla groups, which I hope will consider
such things as Very Much OT!

--
Best,

s) Alexander Yudenitsch   <[hidden email]>



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Re: Sign something important: Manifesto Election without Lula is fraud

Balaco ocalaB
Em 09-01-2018 23:07, Alexander Yudenitsch escreveu:

> Balaco ocalaB wrote, on 09 Jan 18 19:54:
>
> I won't quote the ready-made text here, but I do resent, very much,
> snyone trying to use this group for political purposes, specially when
> they involve a (IMHO) shady politician who is trying to get people to
> put pressure on the only institution that is capable of judging him to
> the full force of the law, and which already has condemned him after a
> (very) long due process and judgement -- but, as I said, I'd rather none
> of this became mixed up with Mozilla groups, which I hope will consider
> such things as Very Much OT!
>

My signature mentioning things being off-topic is a scar of the
experience I had in support Mozilla's groups. There is no problem at all
in posting my message here. Maybe it was that what made you want to make
this reply - which makes me a bit sad, although I do not mind you
exposing your opinion.

And you are miss informed about Brasil. Lula's judgement, the phase that
already happened, did *not* consider any proof, because they do not
exist; and it also did not consider any signal of anything wrong or
illegal because they also do not exist. Lula has always done things very
openly and without anything wrong. His first judgement was made in a
completely political biased choice, and not much beyound that. There are
several things to prove there is no problem. These things are even
public now, I may show them to you, if you want.

You may search yourself, but today there has been even a book, made by a
politically informed person, that analyses the whole situation in much
more aspects than we usually see. The book analyses details of the
judgement, the arguments used by the judge, and several things to show
how this situation is a break with some of our institutions. This book
was launched some weeks ago.
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Re: Sign something important: Manifesto Election without Lula is fraud

Luis
In reply to this post by Alexander Yudenitsch
Alexander Yudenitsch wrote:

> Balaco ocalaB wrote, on 09 Jan 18 19:54:
>
> I won't quote the ready-made text here, but I do resent, very much,
> snyone trying to use this group for political purposes, specially when
> they involve a (IMHO) shady politician who is trying to get people to
> put pressure on the only institution that is capable of judging him to
> the full force of the law, and which already has condemned him after a
> (very) long due process and judgement -- but, as I said, I'd rather none
> of this became mixed up with Mozilla groups, which I hope will consider
> such things as Very Much OT!
>
You criticize someone doing politics while you do the same in your shady
response. Funny, very funny.
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Re: Sign something important: Manifesto Election without Lula is fraud

Jim Fisher
In reply to this post by Balaco ocalaB
On 9 Jan 2018 at 19:54, Balaco ocalaB wrote:

> > The attempt to schedule the date of the trial of Lula's appeal for
> > the 24th of January is empty of legality. It is purely an act of
> > persecution of the most popular Brazilian leader. The recourse to
> > resort to spurious expedient to intervene in the electoral process
> > happens because the coup of Dilma's Impeachment did not generate a
> > political regime of lasting conservative stability.
> >
> > The strategic plan underway, following Dilma's removal from the
> > presidency, cuts workers' rights, threatens public pensions,
> > privatizes Petrobras, Eletrobras and public banks, and abandons the
> > active and proud foreign policy.
> >
> > The labor reform and the limit of expenditure did not attract the
> > promised foreign investments, which could support the campaign for a
> > government aligned with neoliberalism in 2018. In the face of
> > unpopularity, these sectors have failed to build, so far, a viable
> > candidate for president.
> >
> > Lula grows in the polls in all scenarios in the first and the second
> > rounds, and can even win in the first round. The scenario of
> > overwhelming victory of Lula would mean the failure of the coup and
> > would enable the opening of a new political cycle.
> >
> > Hence, anything goes in the plot to prevent Lula's candidature:
> > condemnation in the Porto Alegre court, the creation of a
> > semi-parliament and the postponement of the elections. None of the
> > listed actions is out of question. They build up the evil arsenal of
> > the political forces that do not value democracy.
> >
> > A persecution entirely political, which will only be defeated on the
> > political ground. More than a tactical or electoral problem, the
> > victory or defeat in this fight will have strategic and long-term
> > consequences.
> >
> > Brazil is experiencing a time of crossroads: either restore social
> > rights and the democratic rule of law or be defeated and watch the
> > final implementation of a capitalist society without regulations,
> > based on the super-exploitation of workers.
> >
> > This type of society requires a State reinforced with instruments of
> > exception to suppress universities, intellectuals, workers, women,
> > youth, the poor, the black people. Ultimately, all the exploited and
> > oppressed that rise up against the new system.
> >
> > Thus, the issue of the persecution of Lula does not refer only to the
> > Workers Party and the left, but to all Brazilian citizens. As never
> > before in our generation of fighters, what is at stake is the future
> > of democracy.
>
> You may sign (or reread) the petition of this manifesto here:
>
> https://www.change.org/p/sociedade-brasileira-em-defesa-do-direito-de-lula-ser-c
> andidato-a-presidente-do-brasil?utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&ut
> m_campaign=share_petition
>
Signed, but it refused to let my wife do the same. Presumably it's one of those
stupid petition sites that won't let 2 people sign from the same machine, and
loses signatures as a result.

Jim Fisher

--
http://jimellame.tumblr.com - My thoughts on freedom (needs updating)
http://jimella.wordpress.com - political snippets, especially economic policy
http://jimella.livejournal.com - misc. snippets, some political, some not
Forget Google! I search with https://duckduckgo.com  which doesn't spy on you



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Re: Sign something important: Manifesto Election without Lula is fraud

Balaco ocalaB
In reply to this post by Balaco ocalaB
Em 10-01-2018 21:22, Jim Fisher escreveu:

> On 9 Jan 2018 at 19:54, Balaco ocalaB wrote:
>
>>> The attempt to schedule the date of the trial of Lula's appeal for
>>> the 24th of January is empty of legality. It is purely an act of
>>> persecution of the most popular Brazilian leader. The recourse to
>>> resort to spurious expedient to intervene in the electoral process
>>> happens because the coup of Dilma's Impeachment did not generate a
>>> political regime of lasting conservative stability.
>>>
>>> The strategic plan underway, following Dilma's removal from the
>>> presidency, cuts workers' rights, threatens public pensions,
>>> privatizes Petrobras, Eletrobras and public banks, and abandons the
>>> active and proud foreign policy.
>>>
>>> The labor reform and the limit of expenditure did not attract the
>>> promised foreign investments, which could support the campaign for a
>>> government aligned with neoliberalism in 2018. In the face of
>>> unpopularity, these sectors have failed to build, so far, a viable
>>> candidate for president.
>>>
>>> Lula grows in the polls in all scenarios in the first and the second
>>> rounds, and can even win in the first round. The scenario of
>>> overwhelming victory of Lula would mean the failure of the coup and
>>> would enable the opening of a new political cycle.
>>>
>>> Hence, anything goes in the plot to prevent Lula's candidature:
>>> condemnation in the Porto Alegre court, the creation of a
>>> semi-parliament and the postponement of the elections. None of the
>>> listed actions is out of question. They build up the evil arsenal of
>>> the political forces that do not value democracy.
>>>
>>> A persecution entirely political, which will only be defeated on the
>>> political ground. More than a tactical or electoral problem, the
>>> victory or defeat in this fight will have strategic and long-term
>>> consequences.
>>>
>>> Brazil is experiencing a time of crossroads: either restore social
>>> rights and the democratic rule of law or be defeated and watch the
>>> final implementation of a capitalist society without regulations,
>>> based on the super-exploitation of workers.
>>>
>>> This type of society requires a State reinforced with instruments of
>>> exception to suppress universities, intellectuals, workers, women,
>>> youth, the poor, the black people. Ultimately, all the exploited and
>>> oppressed that rise up against the new system.
>>>
>>> Thus, the issue of the persecution of Lula does not refer only to the
>>> Workers Party and the left, but to all Brazilian citizens. As never
>>> before in our generation of fighters, what is at stake is the future
>>> of democracy.
>>
>> You may sign (or reread) the petition of this manifesto here:
>>
>> https://www.change.org/p/sociedade-brasileira-em-defesa-do-direito-de-lula-ser-c
>> andidato-a-presidente-do-brasil?utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&ut
>> m_campaign=share_petition
>>
> Signed, but it refused to let my wife do the same. Presumably it's one of those
> stupid petition sites that won't let 2 people sign from the same machine, and
> loses signatures as a result.
>

Thank you very much.

The only thing that could go wrong is if you both tried to use the same
account to sign that campaign. The signing option disappears after we
sign any campaign. Do you have two accounts?

Even if you did not use the same account, some suspicious behaviour (I
know, not necessarily wrong) could be pointed if you two also used the
same computer user, same browser. Besides these two things, I imagined
it would (and should) work.

For this particular campaign, I have seen several comments of people
whose whole families signed it. Several people in the same house, and
will not be hard to find some of them using the same computer.
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Re: Sign something important: Manifesto Election without Lula is fraud

Alexander Yudenitsch
In reply to this post by Luis
Luis wrote, on 10 Jan 18 12:25:

> You criticize someone doing politics while you do the same in your shady
> response. Funny, very funny.

What I consider unaccepatable is using a tech forum to try and get
people to sign up for politically motivated 'manifestos'; if they do so
on appropriate forums, that's their right, but please leave Mozilla
forums out of this.

My personal opinions on this matter may have let slip the "shady
politician", but after getting the full-blown text sent, I may have
thought it at least as apt as the original text.

--
Best,

s) Alexander Yudenitsch   <[hidden email]>



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Re: Sign something important: Manifesto Election without Lula is fraud

Alexander Yudenitsch
In reply to this post by Balaco ocalaB
Balaco ocalaB wrote, on 09 Jan 18 23:29:

> My signature mentioning things being off-topic is a scar of the
> experience I had in support Mozilla's groups. There is no problem at all
> in posting my message here. Maybe it was that what made you want to make
> this reply - which makes me a bit sad, although I do not mind you
> exposing your opinion.

What I consider unaccepatable is using a tech forum to try and get
people to sign up for politically motivated 'manifestos'; if they do so
on appropriate forums, that's their right, but please leave Mozilla
forums out of this.

> And you are miss informed about Brasil. Lula's judgement, the phase that
> already happened, did *not* consider any proof, because they do not
> exist; and it also did not consider any signal of anything wrong or
> illegal because they also do not exist. Lula has always done things very
> openly and without anything wrong. His first judgement was made in a
> completely political biased choice, and not much beyound that. There are
> several things to prove there is no problem. These things are even
> public now, I may show them to you, if you want.
>
> You may search yourself, but today there has been even a book, made by a
> politically informed person, that analyses the whole situation in much
> more aspects than we usually see. The book analyses details of the
> judgement, the arguments used by the judge, and several things to show
> how this situation is a break with some of our institutions. This book
> was launched some weeks ago.

My personal opinions on this matter may have let slip the "shady
politician", but after getting the full-blown text you sent, I may have
thought it at least as apt as the original text.

And I AM a Brazilian, and strongly disagree with your assessment -- but,
as I said, I think this is NOT an appropriate forum for this, so let's
drop it, shall we?

--
Best,

s) Alexander Yudenitsch   <[hidden email]>



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Re: Sign something important: Manifesto Election without Lula is fraud

Balaco ocalaB
In reply to this post by Balaco ocalaB
Em 09-01-2018 19:54, Balaco ocalaB escreveu:

>> The attempt to schedule the date of the trial of Lula's appeal for
>> the 24th of January is empty of legality. It is purely an act of
>> persecution of the most popular Brazilian leader. The recourse to
>> resort to spurious expedient to intervene in the electoral process
>> happens because the coup of Dilma's Impeachment did not generate a
>> political regime of lasting conservative stability.
>>
>> The strategic plan underway, following Dilma's removal from the
>> presidency, cuts workers' rights, threatens public pensions,
>> privatizes Petrobras, Eletrobras and public banks, and abandons the
>> active and proud foreign policy.
>>
>> The labor reform and the limit of expenditure did not attract the
>> promised foreign investments, which could support the campaign for a
>> government aligned with neoliberalism in 2018. In the face of
>> unpopularity, these sectors have failed to build, so far, a viable
>> candidate for president.
>>
>> Lula grows in the polls in all scenarios in the first and the second
>> rounds, and can even win in the first round. The scenario of
>> overwhelming victory of Lula would mean the failure of the coup and
>> would enable the opening of a new political cycle.
>>
>> Hence, anything goes in the plot to prevent Lula's candidature:
>> condemnation in the Porto Alegre court, the creation of a
>> semi-parliament and the postponement of the elections. None of the
>> listed actions is out of question. They build up the evil arsenal of
>> the political forces that do not value democracy.
>>
>> A persecution entirely political, which will only be defeated on the
>> political ground. More than a tactical or electoral problem, the
>> victory or defeat in this fight will have strategic and long-term
>> consequences.
>>
>> Brazil is experiencing a time of crossroads: either restore social
>> rights and the democratic rule of law or be defeated and watch the
>> final implementation of a capitalist society without regulations,
>> based on the super-exploitation of workers.
>>
>> This type of society requires a State reinforced with instruments of
>> exception to suppress universities, intellectuals, workers, women,
>> youth, the poor, the black people. Ultimately, all the exploited and
>> oppressed that rise up against the new system.
>>
>> Thus, the issue of the persecution of Lula does not refer only to the
>> Workers Party and the left, but to all Brazilian citizens. As never
>> before in our generation of fighters, what is at stake is the future
>> of democracy.
>
> You may sign (or reread) the petition of this manifesto here:
>
> https://www.change.org/p/sociedade-brasileira-em-defesa-do-direito-de-lula-ser-candidato-a-presidente-do-brasil?utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition
>
>
> If you decide to do that, I thank you very much.
>
>

About that petition, a recently published story¹ is:

> Assine você também o manifesto em defesa de eleições justas e
> democráticas:
> #EquipeLula
> https://www.change.org/p/sociedade-brasileira-em-defesa-do-direito-de-lula-ser-candidato-a-presidente-do-brasil
>
> Quatro ex-presidentes latinos se somam a 157 mil em manifesto
> pt.org.br [http://www.pt.org.br/quatro-ex-presidentes-latinos-se-somam-a-157-mil-em-manifesto/]
>

Which I translate as:

>
> Also sign the manifesto defending fair and democratic elections:
> #LulaTeam
> https://www.change.org/p/sociedade-brasileira-em-defesa-do-direito-de-lula-ser-candidato-a-presidente-do-brasil
>
> Four Latin American ex-presidents sum theirs to 157 thousand signatures to manifesto
> pt.org.br [http://www.pt.org.br/quatro-ex-presidentes-latinos-se-somam-a-157-mil-em-manifesto/]
>

The second page is in Portuguese, so most of you will not directly read
it. The four ex-presidents which signed the mentioned manifesto are:
(Argentinean) Cristina Kirchner, (Uruguayan) José Mujica, (Ecuadorian)
Rafael Correa, (Colombian) Ernesto Samper.

As I ended writing this message, there were already more than 164
thousand signatures. (:

¹ The story was published in
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1555208341214827&id=1
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Re: Sign something important: Manifesto Election without Lula is fraud

Ray_Net
Balaco ocalaB wrote on 11-01-18 21:45:
>
> About that petition, a recently published story¹ is:

We don't care here.
Please get out  !
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Re: Sign something important: Manifesto Election without Lula is fraud

WaltS48-8
In reply to this post by Balaco ocalaB
On 1/11/18 3:45 PM, Balaco ocalaB wrote:
> Em 09-01-2018 19:54, Balaco ocalaB escreveu:
>>> The attempt to schedule the date of the trial of Lula's appeal for
>>> the 24th of January is empty of legality. It is purely an act of
>>> persecution of the most popular Brazilian leader.


🤔

😴

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Re: Sign something important: Manifesto Election without Lula is fraud

Jim Fisher
In reply to this post by Balaco ocalaB
On 10 Jan 2018 at 21:35, Balaco ocalaB wrote:

> Em 10-01-2018 21:22, Jim Fisher escreveu:
> > On 9 Jan 2018 at 19:54, Balaco ocalaB wrote:
> >
> >>> The attempt to schedule the date of the trial of Lula's appeal for
> >>> the 24th of January is empty of legality. It is purely an act of
> >>> persecution of the most popular Brazilian leader. The recourse to
> >>> resort to spurious expedient to intervene in the electoral process
> >>> happens because the coup of Dilma's Impeachment did not generate a
> >>> political regime of lasting conservative stability.
> >>>
> >>> The strategic plan underway, following Dilma's removal from the
> >>> presidency, cuts workers' rights, threatens public pensions,
> >>> privatizes Petrobras, Eletrobras and public banks, and abandons the
> >>> active and proud foreign policy.
> >>>
> >>> The labor reform and the limit of expenditure did not attract the
> >>> promised foreign investments, which could support the campaign for a
> >>> government aligned with neoliberalism in 2018. In the face of
> >>> unpopularity, these sectors have failed to build, so far, a viable
> >>> candidate for president.
> >>>
> >>> Lula grows in the polls in all scenarios in the first and the second
> >>> rounds, and can even win in the first round. The scenario of
> >>> overwhelming victory of Lula would mean the failure of the coup and
> >>> would enable the opening of a new political cycle.
> >>>
> >>> Hence, anything goes in the plot to prevent Lula's candidature:
> >>> condemnation in the Porto Alegre court, the creation of a
> >>> semi-parliament and the postponement of the elections. None of the
> >>> listed actions is out of question. They build up the evil arsenal of
> >>> the political forces that do not value democracy.
> >>>
> >>> A persecution entirely political, which will only be defeated on the
> >>> political ground. More than a tactical or electoral problem, the
> >>> victory or defeat in this fight will have strategic and long-term
> >>> consequences.
> >>>
> >>> Brazil is experiencing a time of crossroads: either restore social
> >>> rights and the democratic rule of law or be defeated and watch the
> >>> final implementation of a capitalist society without regulations,
> >>> based on the super-exploitation of workers.
> >>>
> >>> This type of society requires a State reinforced with instruments of
> >>> exception to suppress universities, intellectuals, workers, women,
> >>> youth, the poor, the black people. Ultimately, all the exploited and
> >>> oppressed that rise up against the new system.
> >>>
> >>> Thus, the issue of the persecution of Lula does not refer only to the
> >>> Workers Party and the left, but to all Brazilian citizens. As never
> >>> before in our generation of fighters, what is at stake is the future
> >>> of democracy.
> >>
> >> You may sign (or reread) the petition of this manifesto here:
> >>
> >> https://www.change.org/p/sociedade-brasileira-em-defesa-do-direito-de-lula-se
> >> r-c
> >> andidato-a-presidente-do-brasil?utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink
> >> &ut m_campaign=share_petition
> >>
> > Signed, but it refused to let my wife do the same. Presumably it's one of
> > those stupid petition sites that won't let 2 people sign from the same
> > machine, and loses signatures as a result.
> >
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> The only thing that could go wrong is if you both tried to use the same
> account to sign that campaign. The signing option disappears after we
> sign any campaign. Do you have two accounts?
>
> Even if you did not use the same account, some suspicious behaviour (I
> know, not necessarily wrong) could be pointed if you two also used the
> same computer user, same browser. Besides these two things, I imagined
> it would (and should) work.
>
> For this particular campaign, I have seen several comments of people
> whose whole families signed it. Several people in the same house, and
> will not be hard to find some of them using the same computer.

My wife simply tried to use the same page on the same machine using the same
browser as me, using the back button to return the page giving personal
details. For some petitions this works smoothly, as it should. For some,
including this one it does not. She has better things to do with her time than
to go to a different machine, type in the URL, etc. when it clearly should not
be necessary. They presumably think this stops people signing twice by setting
and checking a cookie (it doesn't if they really want to), whereas they should
check the email address and name against their database of people who have
signed, as some others do.

Jim Fisher
--
http://jimellame.tumblr.com - My thoughts on freedom (needs updating)
http://jimella.wordpress.com - political snippets, especially economic policy
http://jimella.livejournal.com - misc. snippets, some political, some not
Forget Google! I search with https://duckduckgo.com  which doesn't spy on you



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Re: Sign something important: Manifesto Election without Lula is fraud

Jim Fisher
In reply to this post by Ray_Net
On 11 Jan 2018 at 22:02, Ray_Net wrote:

> Balaco ocalaB wrote on 11-01-18 21:45:
> >
> > About that petition, a recently published story¹ is:
>
> We don't care here.
> Please get out  !

Why should he/she? This group is for general discussion, and is used for that
by most people. I don't remember hearing complaints about politics when the USA
presidential election was coming up and candidates were being criticised here.

Jim Fisher

--
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Re: Sign something important: Manifesto Election without Lula is fraud

Balaco ocalaB
In reply to this post by Balaco ocalaB
Em 12-01-2018 22:31, Jim Fisher escreveu:

> On 10 Jan 2018 at 21:35, Balaco ocalaB wrote:
>
>> Em 10-01-2018 21:22, Jim Fisher escreveu:
>>> On 9 Jan 2018 at 19:54, Balaco ocalaB wrote:
>>>
>>>>> The attempt to schedule the date of the trial of Lula's appeal for
>>>>> the 24th of January is empty of legality. It is purely an act of
>>>>> persecution of the most popular Brazilian leader. The recourse to
>>>>> resort to spurious expedient to intervene in the electoral process
>>>>> happens because the coup of Dilma's Impeachment did not generate a
>>>>> political regime of lasting conservative stability.
>>>>>
>>>>> The strategic plan underway, following Dilma's removal from the
>>>>> presidency, cuts workers' rights, threatens public pensions,
>>>>> privatizes Petrobras, Eletrobras and public banks, and abandons the
>>>>> active and proud foreign policy.
>>>>>
>>>>> The labor reform and the limit of expenditure did not attract the
>>>>> promised foreign investments, which could support the campaign for a
>>>>> government aligned with neoliberalism in 2018. In the face of
>>>>> unpopularity, these sectors have failed to build, so far, a viable
>>>>> candidate for president.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lula grows in the polls in all scenarios in the first and the second
>>>>> rounds, and can even win in the first round. The scenario of
>>>>> overwhelming victory of Lula would mean the failure of the coup and
>>>>> would enable the opening of a new political cycle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hence, anything goes in the plot to prevent Lula's candidature:
>>>>> condemnation in the Porto Alegre court, the creation of a
>>>>> semi-parliament and the postponement of the elections. None of the
>>>>> listed actions is out of question. They build up the evil arsenal of
>>>>> the political forces that do not value democracy.
>>>>>
>>>>> A persecution entirely political, which will only be defeated on the
>>>>> political ground. More than a tactical or electoral problem, the
>>>>> victory or defeat in this fight will have strategic and long-term
>>>>> consequences.
>>>>>
>>>>> Brazil is experiencing a time of crossroads: either restore social
>>>>> rights and the democratic rule of law or be defeated and watch the
>>>>> final implementation of a capitalist society without regulations,
>>>>> based on the super-exploitation of workers.
>>>>>
>>>>> This type of society requires a State reinforced with instruments of
>>>>> exception to suppress universities, intellectuals, workers, women,
>>>>> youth, the poor, the black people. Ultimately, all the exploited and
>>>>> oppressed that rise up against the new system.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus, the issue of the persecution of Lula does not refer only to the
>>>>> Workers Party and the left, but to all Brazilian citizens. As never
>>>>> before in our generation of fighters, what is at stake is the future
>>>>> of democracy.
>>>>
>>>> You may sign (or reread) the petition of this manifesto here:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.change.org/p/sociedade-brasileira-em-defesa-do-direito-de-lula-se
>>>> r-c
>>>> andidato-a-presidente-do-brasil?utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink
>>>> &ut m_campaign=share_petition
>>>>
>>> Signed, but it refused to let my wife do the same. Presumably it's one of
>>> those stupid petition sites that won't let 2 people sign from the same
>>> machine, and loses signatures as a result.
>>>
>>
>> Thank you very much.
>>
>> The only thing that could go wrong is if you both tried to use the same
>> account to sign that campaign. The signing option disappears after we
>> sign any campaign. Do you have two accounts?
>>
>> Even if you did not use the same account, some suspicious behaviour (I
>> know, not necessarily wrong) could be pointed if you two also used the
>> same computer user, same browser. Besides these two things, I imagined
>> it would (and should) work.
>>
>> For this particular campaign, I have seen several comments of people
>> whose whole families signed it. Several people in the same house, and
>> will not be hard to find some of them using the same computer.
>
> My wife simply tried to use the same page on the same machine using the same
> browser as me, using the back button to return the page giving personal
> details. For some petitions this works smoothly, as it should. For some,
> including this one it does not. She has better things to do with her time than
> to go to a different machine, type in the URL, etc. when it clearly should not
> be necessary. They presumably think this stops people signing twice by setting
> and checking a cookie (it doesn't if they really want to), whereas they should
> check the email address and name against their database of people who have
> signed, as some others do.
>

Well, Jim. Using the back button should not be a problem. But one vote
per account is something good, I think. And after we vote for one
petition, we may (there is a setting) receive messages of updates of it.
We can list all the petitions we have signed in our account.

The URL to vote has nothing to make it unique. You may use it as much as
you want or need, copying and opening it many times. And I am sure that
the number of votes does *not* depend only on a cookie.

Signing up and voting are both really quick in that site. But if your
wife does not want to expend a few minutes in this, that is ok too. I
thank you very much for your signature there.
(:
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Re: Sign something important: Manifesto Election without Lula is fraud

Ray_Net
In reply to this post by Ray_Net
Jim Fisher wrote on 13-01-18 02:37:

> On 11 Jan 2018 at 22:02, Ray_Net wrote:
>
>> Balaco ocalaB wrote on 11-01-18 21:45:
>>> About that petition, a recently published story¹ is:
>> We don't care here.
>> Please get out  !
> Why should he/she? This group is for general discussion, and is used for that
> by most people. I don't remember hearing complaints about politics when the USA
> presidential election was coming up and candidates were being criticised here.
>
> Jim Fisher
>
The newsgroup is labelled MOZILLA.general ..
So it pertain to a general discussions about MOZILLA products.
That's my opinion.
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Re: Sign something important: Manifesto Election without Lula is fraud

Ed Mullen-10
On 1/13/2018 at 11:05 AM, Ray_Net created this epitome of digital genius:

> Jim Fisher wrote on 13-01-18 02:37:
>> On 11 Jan 2018 at 22:02, Ray_Net wrote:
>>
>>> Balaco ocalaB wrote on 11-01-18 21:45:
>>>> About that petition, a recently published story¹ is:
>>> We don't care here.
>>> Please get out  !
>> Why should he/she? This group is for general discussion, and is used
>> for that
>> by most people. I don't remember hearing complaints about politics
>> when the USA
>> presidential election was coming up and candidates were being
>> criticised here.
>>
>> Jim Fisher
>>
> The newsgroup is labelled MOZILLA.general ..
> So it pertain to a general discussions about MOZILLA products.
> That's my opinion.


<https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/forums/>

"mozilla.general
For everything with no forum of its own: discussion about any and all
aspects of all the things that we're doing here at mozilla.org (high
traffic; often off-topic)."


--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net/
If you can smile when things go wrong, you have someone in mind to blame.
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Re: Sign something important: Manifesto Election without Lula is fraud

Jim Fisher
In reply to this post by Ray_Net
On 13 Jan 2018 at 17:05, Ray_Net wrote:

> Jim Fisher wrote on 13-01-18 02:37:
> > On 11 Jan 2018 at 22:02, Ray_Net wrote:
> >
> >> Balaco ocalaB wrote on 11-01-18 21:45:
> >>> About that petition, a recently published story¹ is:
> >> We don't care here.
> >> Please get out  !
> > Why should he/she? This group is for general discussion, and is used for that
> > by most people. I don't remember hearing complaints about politics when the
> > USA presidential election was coming up and candidates were being criticised
> > here.
> >
> > Jim Fisher
> >
> The newsgroup is labelled MOZILLA.general ..
> So it pertain to a general discussions about MOZILLA products.
> That's my opinion.

You're entitled to your opinion, but not to speak on behalf of the majority of
us who disagree. Just take look at the range of non-tech subjects that have
been discussed here over the last few years. There are separate groups I
believe for each of Mozilla's products, but occasionally subjects that really
belong there are taken up here, often because those groups don't always seem to
function effectively.

Jim Fisher

--
http://jimellame.tumblr.com - My thoughts on freedom (needs updating)
http://jimella.wordpress.com - political snippets, especially economic policy
http://jimella.livejournal.com - misc. snippets, some political, some not
Forget Google! I search with https://duckduckgo.com  which doesn't spy on you



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Re: Sign something important: Manifesto Election without Lula is fraud

Hartdonor
In reply to this post by Ray_Net
On Sat, 13 Jan 2018 23:04:42 -0000, in mozilla.general, Jim Fisher wrote:
>the __majority__ of us who disagree.

Majority? LOL! Did you take a poll?

I agree with the people who are against this sort of thread. Off-topic
stuff in this group is generally about things that are of interest to the
broader Mozilla community. This is of parochial interest to Brazilian
citizens who support Lula and that's it. This is far too narrow an
audience to make it appropriate for discussion here.

Peddle your local politics on a local group, where people are far more
likely to care. Mozilla's servers, in a general purpose Mozilla
discussion group, are a bad choice for this sort of content.

--
Give all you can, don't give more than you can.
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Re: Sign something important: Manifesto Election without Lula is fraud

Ray_Net
In reply to this post by Ray_Net
Jim Fisher wrote on 14-01-18 00:04:

> On 13 Jan 2018 at 17:05, Ray_Net wrote:
>
>> Jim Fisher wrote on 13-01-18 02:37:
>>> On 11 Jan 2018 at 22:02, Ray_Net wrote:
>>>
>>>> Balaco ocalaB wrote on 11-01-18 21:45:
>>>>> About that petition, a recently published story¹ is:
>>>> We don't care here.
>>>> Please get out  !
>>> Why should he/she? This group is for general discussion, and is used for that
>>> by most people. I don't remember hearing complaints about politics when the
>>> USA presidential election was coming up and candidates were being criticised
>>> here.
>>>
>>> Jim Fisher
>>>
>> The newsgroup is labelled MOZILLA.general ..
>> So it pertain to a general discussions about MOZILLA products.
>> That's my opinion.
> You're entitled to your opinion,
Ed Mullen have given this official explanation:
"all aspects of all the things that we're doing here at mozilla.org"
So my opinion is correct !
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Re: Sign something important: Manifesto Election without Lula is fraud

Balaco ocalaB
In reply to this post by Hartdonor
Em 14-01-2018 03:13, Hartdonor escreveu:
...
> This is of parochial interest to Brazilian citizens who support Lula
> and that's it. This is far too narrow an audience to make it
> appropriate for discussion here.
>

You are wrong! Clearly wrong.

Four Latin ex-presidents signed the manifesto, as I have said here three
days ago: (Argentinean) Cristina Kirchner, (Uruguayan) José Mujica,
(Ecuadorian) Rafael Correa, (Colombian) Ernesto Samper.

Ricardo Lagos, a fifth Latin ex-president, Chilean, not only signed it,
but also made a publication pointing several aspects of our (Brasil's)
current situation, and also in some countries around the whole world
with similar characteristics. People may want to read that, it is in
Spanish, and there is a comment which translated it to Portuguese:

1. Reshare in Lula's profile, which contains the comment with the
translation to Portuguese of Ricardo Lagos' publication:

     https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1556101661125495&id=1

2. Ricardo Lagos' publication, with comments at least in Spanish and
Portuguese:

     https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10155543947558645&id=1

Several people from many countries in all Americas signed. Several
people from Europe signed the manifesto too. There are people from all
over the world signing this manifesto!

You consider it narrow, I do not care, and I disagree with that
sentence. I consider it important to say here, to say everywhere.

(:


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     Escrevo, logo mostro
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