SVG Fonts

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SVG Fonts

svgNick
Are there any plans to implement SVG fonts in Firefox?   By SVG fonts
I mean the font tag defined in the SVG spec as distinct from fonts
installed on the user computer.   An example of what I'm talking about
is the Chess
Sophia Font produced by Max Froumentain formely of W3C.

the first part of it looks like this:
<font horiz-adv-x="0">
<font-face font-family="ChessSophia" units-per-em="1000" panose-1="0 0
4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0" ascent="1000" descent="0" alphabetic="0"/>
<missing-glyph horiz-adv-x="500" d="M63 0V1000H438V0H63ZM125
63H375V938H125V63Z"/>

.....

The font module has been implemented in Adobe & batik - I would like
to see it in Firefox as well.

If anyone is developing SVG fonts for Firefox I would be willing to
help.
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Re: SVG Fonts

Helder Magalhães
Hi svgNick,


> Are there any plans to implement SVG fonts in Firefox?

Don't have a clue about if/when, but bug 119490 [1] specifically aims
at that. You are invited to vote for it and/or CC yourself to it in
order to receive updates on its status.


> If anyone is developing SVG fonts for Firefox I would be willing to
> help.

Great news! :-)  Help is always welcome. You may take a look at the
specific bug [1] in order to get familiar to what's happening there
and, if you are willing to help on other SVG-related work, you may
also look at JWatt's note [2]. ;-)


Cheers,
 Helder


[1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=119490
[2] http://jwatt.org/moz/svg/help-out/
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Re: SVG Fonts

Robert O'Callahan-3
In reply to this post by svgNick
On 4/09/09 6:39 PM, svgNick wrote:

> Are there any plans to implement SVG fonts in Firefox?   By SVG fonts
> I mean the font tag defined in the SVG spec as distinct from fonts
> installed on the user computer.   An example of what I'm talking about
> is the Chess
> Sophia Font produced by Max Froumentain formely of W3C.
>
> the first part of it looks like this:
> <font horiz-adv-x="0">
> <font-face font-family="ChessSophia" units-per-em="1000" panose-1="0 0
> 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0" ascent="1000" descent="0" alphabetic="0"/>
> <missing-glyph horiz-adv-x="500" d="M63 0V1000H438V0H63ZM125
> 63H375V938H125V63Z"/>

Recently I've been wondering what the actual need is for SVG fonts. What
can SVG fonts do that you can't do with a custom Truetype/Opentype font?

Rob
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Fwd: SVG Fonts

Rick-2
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Rick <[hidden email]>
Date: Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: SVG Fonts
To: Robert O'Callahan <[hidden email]>


SVG fonts rock.  THEY ROCK!

Mostly because you can provide exact geometry for the whole page, and not
worry about the registration of the text.  Because you provide it.  But
also, if you like, you can do a lot of cool things with a font that you
design.

This is one of the reasons that Batik is a really useful tool.  It will
encode fonts for you.

I'm curious, as one of the early adopters, why SVG fonts are not widely
implemented.

You have font metrics, you have SVG.  It's not rocket science.  (I've been
dying to say this, thank you)

MAKE IT HAPPEN!


On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Robert O'Callahan <[hidden email]>wrote:

> On 4/09/09 6:39 PM, svgNick wrote:
>
>> Are there any plans to implement SVG fonts in Firefox?   By SVG fonts
>> I mean the font tag defined in the SVG spec as distinct from fonts
>> installed on the user computer.   An example of what I'm talking about
>> is the Chess
>> Sophia Font produced by Max Froumentain formely of W3C.
>>
>> the first part of it looks like this:
>> <font horiz-adv-x="0">
>> <font-face font-family="ChessSophia" units-per-em="1000" panose-1="0 0
>> 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0" ascent="1000" descent="0" alphabetic="0"/>
>> <missing-glyph horiz-adv-x="500" d="M63 0V1000H438V0H63ZM125
>> 63H375V938H125V63Z"/>
>>
>
> Recently I've been wondering what the actual need is for SVG fonts. What
> can SVG fonts do that you can't do with a custom Truetype/Opentype font?
>
> Rob
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-tech-svg mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-tech-svg
>



--
Cheers!
Rick




--
Cheers!
Rick
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Re: Fwd: SVG Fonts

Robert O'Callahan-3
In reply to this post by Robert O'Callahan-3
On 7/09/09 1:53 PM, Rick wrote:
> Mostly because you can provide exact geometry for the whole page, and not
> worry about the registration of the text.  Because you provide it.  But
> also, if you like, you can do a lot of cool things with a font that you
> design.

But you can do these things with Truetype/Opentype fonts as well. Right?
(In fact you can do more since you can have a proper shaping engine,
hinting, etc.)

Rob
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Re: Fwd: SVG Fonts

Rick-2
Well, yeah, you can.  But you don't embed the encoding in the document, and
therefore you do not control the geometry.

So, there is an issue here  about bandwidth and document size.

If you can get away without specifying the exact font, SVG, via CSS allows
ways for you to try to pick the best font for an OS/browser.  You can
provide a list that will iterate through your choices, but eventually, given
total failure, will drop down to the default font for the browser.  Which
differs for different OS/browser combinatons.   If you can dictate the the
OS/browser, fonts are not an issue.  Narrow audience though.  If we had wide
adoption of stadard fonts, so that "font family" would have a chance of
sucess across browsers, that would help.  That has been attempted with web
fonts (and I may need education here) but I don't see that happenning.

I really don't understand why more engines do not implement SVG fonts.  You
have text metrics, you have path.  That will solve 99% of all requirements
and provide an excellent test bed to implement the rest.

Sorry, but we did this at BitFlash ~7 years ago.  In fact Chris demoed
dynamic flowing SVG text for BitFlash in Zurich in 2002? on an IPaq. (Ask
him)  It's not that hard.

(Rick shuts up)

On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 9:55 PM, Robert O'Callahan <[hidden email]>wrote:

> On 7/09/09 1:53 PM, Rick wrote:
>
>> Mostly because you can provide exact geometry for the whole page, and not
>> worry about the registration of the text.  Because you provide it.  But
>> also, if you like, you can do a lot of cool things with a font that you
>> design.
>>
>
> But you can do these things with Truetype/Opentype fonts as well. Right?
> (In fact you can do more since you can have a proper shaping engine,
> hinting, etc.)
>
>
> Rob
> _______________________________________________
> dev-tech-svg mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-tech-svg
>



--
Cheers!
Rick
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Re: Fwd: SVG Fonts

Rick-2
I just read what I wrote, and it reads like a miserly criticism of the state
of browsers.  I don't feel that way.  Truth is, I think that it's totally
cool that browsers today can do what they do.  Thanks for the effort, maybe
you could do SVG fonts?  :)

On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 10:21 PM, Rick <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Well, yeah, you can.  But you don't embed the encoding in the document, and
> therefore you do not control the geometry.
>
> So, there is an issue here  about bandwidth and document size.
>
> If you can get away without specifying the exact font, SVG, via CSS allows
> ways for you to try to pick the best font for an OS/browser.  You can
> provide a list that will iterate through your choices, but eventually, given
> total failure, will drop down to the default font for the browser.  Which
> differs for different OS/browser combinatons.   If you can dictate the the
> OS/browser, fonts are not an issue.  Narrow audience though.  If we had wide
> adoption of stadard fonts, so that "font family" would have a chance of
> sucess across browsers, that would help.  That has been attempted with web
> fonts (and I may need education here) but I don't see that happenning.
>
> I really don't understand why more engines do not implement SVG fonts.  You
> have text metrics, you have path.  That will solve 99% of all requirements
> and provide an excellent test bed to implement the rest.
>
> Sorry, but we did this at BitFlash ~7 years ago.  In fact Chris demoed
> dynamic flowing SVG text for BitFlash in Zurich in 2002? on an IPaq. (Ask
> him)  It's not that hard.
>
> (Rick shuts up)
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 9:55 PM, Robert O'Callahan <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> On 7/09/09 1:53 PM, Rick wrote:
>>
>>> Mostly because you can provide exact geometry for the whole page, and not
>>> worry about the registration of the text.  Because you provide it.  But
>>> also, if you like, you can do a lot of cool things with a font that you
>>> design.
>>>
>>
>> But you can do these things with Truetype/Opentype fonts as well. Right?
>> (In fact you can do more since you can have a proper shaping engine,
>> hinting, etc.)
>>
>>
>> Rob
>> _______________________________________________
>> dev-tech-svg mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-tech-svg
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers!
> Rick
>
>


--
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Rick
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Re: Fwd: SVG Fonts

Robert O'Callahan-3
In reply to this post by Robert O'Callahan-3
On 7/09/09 2:21 PM, Rick wrote:
> Well, yeah, you can.  But you don't embed the encoding in the document, and
> therefore you do not control the geometry.

I'm suggesting using a downloadable, custom Truetype font via CSS
@font-face.

These can even be embedded directly into the document using data: URLs.

The question is, what are SVG fonts good for that is not solved by CSS
@font-face and Truetype/Opentype support.

Rob
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Re: Fwd: SVG Fonts

Felipe Sanches
Well... SVG fonts can do anything that SVG can do:

You could have colourful glyphs, with transparency, with filter
effects, even with animation. You could even dinamicaly manipulate it
though DOM. The sky is the limit!

One could do wild things with SVG fonts!
Off course these things are not the usual basic demand for fonts...

JucaBlues
Inkscape.org
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Re: Fwd: SVG Fonts

Robert O'Callahan-3
In reply to this post by Robert O'Callahan-3
On 7/09/09 4:22 PM, Felipe Sanches wrote:
> Well... SVG fonts can do anything that SVG can do:
>
> You could have colourful glyphs, with transparency, with filter
> effects, even with animation. You could even dinamicaly manipulate it
> though DOM. The sky is the limit!
>
> One could do wild things with SVG fonts!
> Off course these things are not the usual basic demand for fonts...

You could. Does anyone actually want to do those things?

Rob
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Re: Fwd: SVG Fonts

Felipe Sanches
I agree that there is not much demand for such things.

But while geeks dont get a working playground with full SVG fonts
support in order to tinker with it, we´ll probably not have too much
innovative uses of this tech.

roc,
At the moment I am focusing on development of a subtitling addon for
html5 video. But in the future I´d like to work a bit on SVG rendering
in Firefox, since I have already implemented SVG Filters and initial
support for SVG Fonts in Inkscape. It would be great if you could give
me some advices on firefox development. I am still not much familiar
with the codebase.

Felipe "Juca" Sanches
Inkscape.org
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Re: SVG Fonts

svgNick
In reply to this post by Robert O'Callahan-3
On Sep 7, 11:36 am, Robert O'Callahan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 4/09/09 6:39 PM, svgNick wrote:
>
> > Are there any plans to implement SVG fonts in Firefox?   By SVG fonts
> > I mean the font tag defined in the SVG spec as distinct from fonts
> > installed on the user computer.   An example of what I'm talking about
> > is the Chess
> > Sophia Font produced by Max Froumentain formely of W3C.
>
> > the first part of it looks like this:
> > <font horiz-adv-x="0">
> > <font-face font-family="ChessSophia" units-per-em="1000" panose-1="0 0
> > 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0" ascent="1000" descent="0" alphabetic="0"/>
> > <missing-glyph horiz-adv-x="500" d="M63 0V1000H438V0H63ZM125
> > 63H375V938H125V63Z"/>
>
> Recently I've been wondering what the actual need is for SVG fonts. What
> can SVG fonts do that you can't do with a custom Truetype/Opentype font?
>
> Rob

SVG allows you to specify or embed a font in a document & be sure the
user will not get a lot of missing-glyph symbols when a suitable font
is not installed on their machine.
My special interest is chess - there are Unicode points for all pieces
but very few fonts implement them (Arial Unicode MS &/or  MS Gothic in
windows).
SVG fonts also work well with Apache FOP (implementation of xsl-fo).
This can save you the trouble of generating a font metrics file from
an installed ttf when the font you want is not one of the 14 core pdf
fonts.
Another thing I like about SVG fonts is that anyone who can specify a
path can avoid copyright issues by developing their own font.
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Re: Fwd: SVG Fonts

James Cloos-9
In reply to this post by Robert O'Callahan-3
The point is that SVG files should not have to depend on other, external
files to render.

Because most renderers fail to support SVG fonts, typical SVG-outputting
software uses what are essentially sprites for each glyph, placing them
just like setting text.  Cairo and Ghostscript are two examples.

Were they able to use SVG fonts — and expect rendering software to
support that — then the original text would be available in the SVG,
enabling accessibility support at the very least.

-JimC
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Re: Fwd: SVG Fonts

Chris Lilley
On Tuesday, September 8, 2009, 1:38:45 PM, James wrote:

JC> The point is that SVG files should not have to depend on other, external
JC> files to render.

I agree that being contained in the same file is another advantage of SVG fonts.

JC> Because most renderers fail to support SVG fonts, typical SVG-outputting
JC> software uses what are essentially sprites for each glyph, placing them
JC> just like setting text.  Cairo and Ghostscript are two examples.

"Most" is not correct. Opera, Batik, Ikivo and Bitflash all support SVG fonts (to name the most popular implementations; the latter two being the arket leaders on mobile). Quite a bit of mobile or set-top box content uses SVG fonts in fact. There is also good authoring support in terms of converters or direct authoring tools - Inkscape most recently, but also Corel Draw and Adobe Illustrator will export them and there are conversion tools from Batik, and axport options from fontforge.

Certainly, lack of SVG font support and lack of animation support are the two major dips in the Mozilla results over the SVG 1.1 test suite. And I understand both areas are being actively worked on?

JC> Were they able to use SVG fonts — and expect rendering software to
JC> support that — then the original text would be available in the SVG,
JC> enabling accessibility support at the very least.

That is also true.



--
 Chris Lilley                    mailto:[hidden email]
 Technical Director, Interaction Domain
 W3C Graphics Activity Lead
 Co-Chair, W3C Hypertext CG

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Re: Fwd: SVG Fonts

James Cloos-9
In reply to this post by James Cloos-9
Chris Lilley <[hidden email]> writes:

> "Most" is not correct. Opera, Batik, Ikivo and Bitflash all support
> SVG fonts (to name the most popular implementations; the latter two
> being the arket leaders on mobile). Quite a bit of mobile or set-top
> box content uses SVG fonts in fact.

I'm glad to know I was out of date on that.  Thanks for the heads-up.

From their websites, it looks like Ikivo and Bitflash target proprietary
mobile platforms, which is why I had not heard of Ikivo and was unaware
of how much of SVG Bitflash supports.  I was thinking primarily of Free
Software.

In any case, I would argue that the fact that SVG fonts are getting used
in the mobile sector is an important reason for gecko to support them too.

-JimC
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Re: Fwd: SVG Fonts

Boris Zbarsky
James Cloos wrote:
> In any case, I would argue that the fact that SVG fonts are getting used
> in the mobile sector is an important reason for gecko to support them too.

I don't see why.

Let's be clear.  What we have here are two different technological
solutions to the same problem: that of creating custom fonts to use with
a web page (defined as something present on the web; doesn't have to be
HTML).  The question is whether to implement one or the other or both.

Things that _are_ relevant to this decision (not exhaustive; just off
the top of my head):

1)  Comparative capabilities of the two technologies in terms of the
     fonts they can define.
2)  Availability of authoring tools and other sources (e.g. font
     foundries) for the fonts.
3)  Ease of authoring web pages using the technology.
4)  Whether existing web content relies on one or the other (or both).
5)  Whether web content will be able to use one or the other (or both)
     in the near future.
6)  Whether there are pressing reasons why we think one or the other is
     better for the web,
7)  What the implementation and maintenance costs are for the two
     technologies.

One thing that is NOT relevant is which technology is used as an
intermediate serialization format in a closed-loop process.  This
includes mobile walled gardens, on-the-wire data formats for printer
drivers, interface description languages for UI toolkits and so forth.
The two obvious exceptions are if we want Gecko to be used as part of
such a closed-loop process (which is not high on our priority list) or
if there is a good chance that the data involved will end up on the web
(see points 4 and 5 in the "relevant" list).

Put another way, just because there's lots of software that deals with
VBScript doesn't mean we should implement VBScript.  That would remain
true if VBScript were a W3C standard (and is in fact true of a number of
W3C standards today).

-Boris

P.S. No actual opinion on the relative merits of svg fonts and
@font-face per my 7-item list above.  Just trying to head off logical
fallacies before they get too far.
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Re: SVG Fonts

Robert O'Callahan-3
In reply to this post by svgNick
On 8/09/09 6:31 PM, svgNick wrote:

> SVG allows you to specify or embed a font in a document&  be sure the
> user will not get a lot of missing-glyph symbols when a suitable font
> is not installed on their machine.
> My special interest is chess - there are Unicode points for all pieces
> but very few fonts implement them (Arial Unicode MS&/or  MS Gothic in
> windows).
> SVG fonts also work well with Apache FOP (implementation of xsl-fo).
> This can save you the trouble of generating a font metrics file from
> an installed ttf when the font you want is not one of the 14 core pdf
> fonts.
> Another thing I like about SVG fonts is that anyone who can specify a
> path can avoid copyright issues by developing their own font.

You can do all those things with CSS @font-face downloadable fonts and a
custom Truetype/Opentype font.

Rob
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Re: Fwd: SVG Fonts

Robert O'Callahan-3
In reply to this post by James Cloos-9
On 8/09/09 11:38 PM, James Cloos wrote:
> The point is that SVG files should not have to depend on other, external
> files to render.

You could use CSS @font-face with the font in a data: URL.

Rob
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Re: Fwd: SVG Fonts

Robert O'Callahan-3
In reply to this post by Robert O'Callahan-3
On 8/09/09 4:14 AM, Felipe Sanches wrote:
> But while geeks dont get a working playground with full SVG fonts
> support in order to tinker with it, we´ll probably not have too much
> innovative uses of this tech.

Other SVG UAs apparently support the full SVG fonts spec already, so
there is nothing stopping people coming up with innovative uses for it.

I'm reluctant to add SVG Fonts to Gecko and acquiesce to having them be
an essential part of the Web platform forever just so that people can
play with them to see if they're useful.

Rob
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Re: Fwd: SVG Fonts

James Cloos-9
In reply to this post by Boris Zbarsky
Boris Zbarsky <[hidden email]> writes:

> James Cloos wrote:
>> In any case, I would argue that the fact that SVG fonts are getting used
>> in the mobile sector is an important reason for gecko to support them too.
>
> I don't see why.

Marketing.

The other poster’s statement that SVG fonts have gained traction in the
mobile sector implies that sites are using them on pages intended for
those users.  That implies that SVG font support will help gecko gain
traction in that segment.

And if the trend towards mobile is as real as many claim, traction there
is important for gecko and mozilla.org.

-JimC
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