Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
38 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Jeff Beatty
Adding Tim back to the thread to comment.

On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 6:51 AM Youghourta Benali <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> we discussed  this issue multiple times in the past, and I reiterate my
> position.
>
> while "not translating" the brand makes sense, forbidding
> transliteration *doesn't
> make any sense.*
>
> You have to consider languages that are not written in Latin letters (and
> people who can't read Latin letters)
>
> just imagine that Firefox brand name was originally written in Arabic, and
> you are asked to keep it like this "فيرفكس" even in US/English pages.
>
> here is the result we get
>
> [image: firefox-transliteration.png]
>
>
> as a English speaker who can't read Arabic, are you able to read or
> recognize the brand name here?
>
> I highly doubt it.
>
> this is exactly what you are asking us to do, but for other languages.
>
> I think these kind of decisions should not be taken from the "English point
> of view" but rather from a global point of view. we are going to "damage"
> the brand name if we don't allow even transliteration.
>
>
> keep in mind that we are localizing in order to help the communities we are
> localizing for. Prioritizing marketing over "helping the communities" is
> not a wise decision IMHO.
>
> Best,
> --
> Youghourta Benali
> @djug
>
>
> Le jeu. 22 août 2019 à 17:19, Peiying Mo <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> > Hello Everyone,
> >
> > It was brought to our attention that a recent release of Firefox desktop
> > contains localized brand names. Though there have been discussions on
> brand
> > and localization as late as last year, the policy has not changed: no
> > localization, no transliteration, no declension. *Mozilla brand names
> must
> > remain unchanged*. This applies to Mozilla products, desktop and mobile,
> > and websites. Here is the full list of Mozilla trademarked brands.
> > <https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/trademarks/list/>
> >
> > @Locale managers and translators, please include this guideline when
> > onboarding new contributors. When you spot the issue in the translation,
> > communicate to the community and watch for new instances. If possible
> > conduct a global review product by product to make sure this problem is
> > corrected.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Peiying
> > _______________________________________________
> > dev-l10n-web mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n-web
> >
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Youghourta Benali
please find below the missing screenshot (from my previous reply)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oxlx8iecxmqoyvg/firefox-transliteration.png?dl=0

--
Youghourta Benali
@djug


Le jeu. 29 août 2019 à 13:58, Jeff Beatty <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Adding Tim back to the thread to comment.
>
> On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 6:51 AM Youghourta Benali <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> we discussed  this issue multiple times in the past, and I reiterate my
>> position.
>>
>> while "not translating" the brand makes sense, forbidding
>> transliteration *doesn't
>> make any sense.*
>>
>> You have to consider languages that are not written in Latin letters (and
>> people who can't read Latin letters)
>>
>> just imagine that Firefox brand name was originally written in Arabic, and
>> you are asked to keep it like this "فيرفكس" even in US/English pages.
>>
>> here is the result we get
>>
>> [image: firefox-transliteration.png]
>>
>>
>> as a English speaker who can't read Arabic, are you able to read or
>> recognize the brand name here?
>>
>> I highly doubt it.
>>
>> this is exactly what you are asking us to do, but for other languages.
>>
>> I think these kind of decisions should not be taken from the "English
>> point
>> of view" but rather from a global point of view. we are going to "damage"
>> the brand name if we don't allow even transliteration.
>>
>>
>> keep in mind that we are localizing in order to help the communities we
>> are
>> localizing for. Prioritizing marketing over "helping the communities" is
>> not a wise decision IMHO.
>>
>> Best,
>> --
>> Youghourta Benali
>> @djug
>>
>>
>> Le jeu. 22 août 2019 à 17:19, Peiying Mo <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>>
>> > Hello Everyone,
>> >
>> > It was brought to our attention that a recent release of Firefox desktop
>> > contains localized brand names. Though there have been discussions on
>> brand
>> > and localization as late as last year, the policy has not changed: no
>> > localization, no transliteration, no declension. *Mozilla brand names
>> must
>> > remain unchanged*. This applies to Mozilla products, desktop and mobile,
>> > and websites. Here is the full list of Mozilla trademarked brands.
>> > <https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/trademarks/list/>
>> >
>> > @Locale managers and translators, please include this guideline when
>> > onboarding new contributors. When you spot the issue in the translation,
>> > communicate to the community and watch for new instances. If possible
>> > conduct a global review product by product to make sure this problem is
>> > corrected.
>> >
>> > Thank you,
>> > Peiying
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > dev-l10n-web mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n-web
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> dev-l10n mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>>
>
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Eduardo Trápani
In reply to this post by Tim Murray
On 27/8/19 17:06, Tim Murray wrote:

 > The guidance offered by the Brand and Legal teams derives from an
audit of
 > how most global brands treat their native-English names other languages,
 > which showed that the great majority of brands do not localize their
 > trademarked names.

I am not sure that is still the case. Find below examples from the top
seven brands, according to Forbes[1]. Please note that this is JUST
about declensions (localization is too broad a term in this case and
transliteration belongs to another category):

Google:
https://www.google.com/?hl=fi
Serch and mail page. In the search page check the text under the
buttons: "Googlen versiot" or try to start gmail to see: "Siirry Gmailiin".

Microsoft:
https://www.microsoft.com/fi-fi/
Main page. See at the top, right: "Kaikki Microsoftin"

Facebook:
https://pl-pl.facebook.com/privacy/explanation
Official page about privacy: "w ustawieniach Facebooka"

Apple:
https://www.apple.com/no/privacy/
Official page about privacy: "Apples produkter" (the header)

Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com.tr/
Main page. Notice "Benim Amazon'um" at the top.

Coca-Cola:
https://www.cocacola.fi/fi/legal/privacy-policy/
Official page about privacy. The text "Coca-Colan" appears many times,
also "Coca-Colalle".

Samsung:
https://www.samsung.com/fi/members/
Just a page inside their site. They seem to have been able to mostly
avoid declensions for titles. Still, when they have to write sentences
you can find in the page: "luettavaa Samsungin maailmasta." As a side
note, they recommend "Mozilla Firefoxilla".

All those official pages use declensions, which is probably not a
surprise for speakers of those languages, they need those suffixes just
as English needs prepositions. That's how they work.

Brand owners can obviously not get rid of declensions. They can ask to
have a separator, to keep the brand a bit more isolated, but you will
still have things like Firefox-en or Firefox'en (but that's cosmetic,
speakers will still say Firefoxen).

Some of those sites allow for community driven translations, but I only
choose the official ones.

[1] https://www.forbes.com/powerful-brands/list/#tab:rank
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Jonathan Kew
On 29/08/2019 17:42, Eduardo Trápani wrote:

> On 27/8/19 17:06, Tim Murray wrote:
>
>  > The guidance offered by the Brand and Legal teams derives from an
> audit of
>  > how most global brands treat their native-English names other languages,
>  > which showed that the great majority of brands do not localize their
>  > trademarked names.
>
> I am not sure that is still the case. Find below examples from the top
> seven brands, according to Forbes[1]. Please note that this is JUST
> about declensions (localization is too broad a term in this case and
> transliteration belongs to another category):

I think part of the issue in this whole discussion may be a confusion or
blurring of the lines between *localization* (generally understood to
involve translation, so that "Firefox" might become "Feuerfuchs" and
"Facebook" could be "Gesichtbuch"), which brands will generally want to
avoid, and *declension*, where the brand name is left untranslated but
treated as a word according to the target language's grammar, so it
takes appropriate suffixes (or whatever) according to that language's rules.

A Brand/Legal decision that Mozilla brand names should not be
*localized* (translated) seems entirely reasonable to me. A prohibition
on any kind of *declension* of the (untranslated) brand names, on the
other hand, is in many cases scarcely workable, and I wonder if that was
ever the real intention.

JK
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Francesco Lodolo [:flod]
Hi,

I want to get a point across very clearly.

We (l10n-drivers) provided the Brand and Legal teams with detailed
information about:
- Descriptions and examples of the different types of potential
changes to the original brand names (translation, transliteration,
declension). For declension, both cases where the actual brand remains
unchanged (adding particles with or without an hyphen, e.g.
"Firefoxen" or "Firefox-en") or has to be changed (e.g. "Firefoksa").
- The impact of not allowing declension on the tone of Firefox for
languages where that's needed.
- Examples from other companies in the same area as Mozilla (Tech and
Software) and completely different sectors.

While we're stakeholders in this decision, the final call belongs to
the Brand team. Our role – together with the Legal team – is to help
them reach an informed decision, and to enforce it once that happened.

Please assume that we tried our best to establish a policy that
wouldn't have a negative impact on localization.

Francesco

Il giorno gio 29 ago 2019 alle ore 19:26 Jonathan Kew
<[hidden email]> ha scritto:

>
> On 29/08/2019 17:42, Eduardo Trápani wrote:
> > On 27/8/19 17:06, Tim Murray wrote:
> >
> >  > The guidance offered by the Brand and Legal teams derives from an
> > audit of
> >  > how most global brands treat their native-English names other languages,
> >  > which showed that the great majority of brands do not localize their
> >  > trademarked names.
> >
> > I am not sure that is still the case. Find below examples from the top
> > seven brands, according to Forbes[1]. Please note that this is JUST
> > about declensions (localization is too broad a term in this case and
> > transliteration belongs to another category):
>
> I think part of the issue in this whole discussion may be a confusion or
> blurring of the lines between *localization* (generally understood to
> involve translation, so that "Firefox" might become "Feuerfuchs" and
> "Facebook" could be "Gesichtbuch"), which brands will generally want to
> avoid, and *declension*, where the brand name is left untranslated but
> treated as a word according to the target language's grammar, so it
> takes appropriate suffixes (or whatever) according to that language's rules.
>
> A Brand/Legal decision that Mozilla brand names should not be
> *localized* (translated) seems entirely reasonable to me. A prohibition
> on any kind of *declension* of the (untranslated) brand names, on the
> other hand, is in many cases scarcely workable, and I wonder if that was
> ever the real intention.
>
> JK
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Michael Bauer-11

Sgrìobh Francesco Lodolo na leanas 29/08/2019 aig 18:49:
> Hi,
>
> I want to get a point across very clearly.
As do we
> Please assume that we tried our best to establish a policy that
> wouldn't have a negative impact on localization.
And we're saying that whatever has been done, has produced a set of
unworkable rules. Is Mozilla so monolithic now that we cannot re-examine
a decision when there is evidence that the original decision was not a
good one?

Michael


_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Jeff Beatty
El jue., 29 de ago. de 2019 12:00, Michael Bauer <[hidden email]>
escribió:

>
> Sgrìobh Francesco Lodolo na leanas 29/08/2019 aig 18:49:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I want to get a point across very clearly.
> As do we
> > Please assume that we tried our best to establish a policy that
> > wouldn't have a negative impact on localization.
> And we're saying that whatever has been done, has produced a set of
> unworkable rules. Is Mozilla so monolithic now that we cannot re-examine
> a decision when there is evidence that the original decision was not a
> good one?
>
Not at all, it can be re-examined, but that has to come from the
decision-makers. I think flod's goal was to emphasize that our role was as
stakeholders, but not decision-makers and to provide another description of
the due diligence we put forth. I'm happy to go into detailing that effort
as, I'll admit, we could have been more transparent about the work we did
behind the scenes, who was involved, and the case we built. Would that be
helpful to those involved in this discussion?

>
> Michael
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Michael Bauer-11

Sgrìobh Jeff Beatty na leanas 29/08/2019 aig 19:12:
> Not at all, it can be re-examined, but that has to come from the
> decision-makers.
Why? Clearly the decision makers have already made their decision based
on whatever mechanisms they use and with whatever input you gave them.
Since from the localizers POV that is a bad and unworkable decision, if
we wait for a re-examination to come from the decision makers then we'll
be waiting for a very long time because clearly they don't think it's a
bad decision at this stage.
> I think flod's goal was to emphasize that our role was as
> stakeholders, but not decision-makers and to provide another
> description of the due diligence we put forth. I'm happy to go into
> detailing that effort as, I'll admit, we could have been more
> transparent about the work we did behind the scenes, who was involved,
> and the case we built. Would that be helpful to those involved in this
> discussion?
Thanks but I don't think that would be helpful. Whatever case you put
forward didn't work by the sound of it.

Michael
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Jeff Beatty
Sorry, I see how I was unclear. We can rehash and re-examine all we'd like
here and request that the decision-makers take the feedback here into
consideration, but in a large organization with a distributed
responsibility/decision-making model, change won't be implemented until the
decision-makers are willing to make a different call.

El vie., 30 de ago. de 2019 04:15, Michael Bauer <[hidden email]>
escribió:

>
> Sgrìobh Jeff Beatty na leanas 29/08/2019 aig 19:12:
> > Not at all, it can be re-examined, but that has to come from the
> > decision-makers.
> Why? Clearly the decision makers have already made their decision based
> on whatever mechanisms they use and with whatever input you gave them.
> Since from the localizers POV that is a bad and unworkable decision, if
> we wait for a re-examination to come from the decision makers then we'll
> be waiting for a very long time because clearly they don't think it's a
> bad decision at this stage.
> > I think flod's goal was to emphasize that our role was as
> > stakeholders, but not decision-makers and to provide another
> > description of the due diligence we put forth. I'm happy to go into
> > detailing that effort as, I'll admit, we could have been more
> > transparent about the work we did behind the scenes, who was involved,
> > and the case we built. Would that be helpful to those involved in this
> > discussion?
> Thanks but I don't think that would be helpful. Whatever case you put
> forward didn't work by the sound of it.
>
> Michael
>
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Eduardo Trápani
In reply to this post by Jeff Beatty
On 22/8/19 16:13, Jeff Beatty wrote:
>>> the policy has not changed: no
>>> localization, no transliteration, no declension. *Mozilla brand names

>> About declensions, does this mean that, for example, these strings
>> should be changed?
>>
>> (en-US) Firefox Home (Default)
>>      (eu) Firefoxen hasiera-orria (lehenetsia)

> Yes, that's correct.

So these ones should be changed too?

* https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/
* https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/trademarks/list/
     "We will only send Mozilla-related information."

* https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/
     "Mozilla's Data Privacy Principles ..."
     "subscribe to Mozilla’s governance group."
     "Mozilla's Open Policy and Advocacy Blog."

* https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/manifesto/
     "The Mozilla Manifesto and Addendum represent Mozilla’s commitment
to ..."

* https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/about
     "Addons.mozilla.org (AMO), is Mozilla's official site"



In general, it seems en-US is free to use a declension after brand names
for the possesive form, while other languages are not allowed to do it.

Should dashes and apostrophes have an impact on the brand name, it would
be the same for these texts:

(en-US) Mozilla's / Mozilla-related / Mozilla-based
(tr) Mozilla’nın
(gn) Mozilla-pe
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Jeff Beatty
According to Tim's email, English is also subject to these rules and the
style guide has been updated to specify that constructs using apostrophes
or other grammar points with the brand are prohibited (i.e., no "Firefox's"
but "Firefox browser's" is ok).

El vie., 30 de ago. de 2019 09:29, Eduardo Trápani <[hidden email]>
escribió:

> On 22/8/19 16:13, Jeff Beatty wrote:
> >>> the policy has not changed: no
> >>> localization, no transliteration, no declension. *Mozilla brand names
>
> >> About declensions, does this mean that, for example, these strings
> >> should be changed?
> >>
> >> (en-US) Firefox Home (Default)
> >>      (eu) Firefoxen hasiera-orria (lehenetsia)
>
> > Yes, that's correct.
>
> So these ones should be changed too?
>
> * https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/
> * https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/trademarks/list/
>      "We will only send Mozilla-related information."
>
> * https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/
>      "Mozilla's Data Privacy Principles ..."
>      "subscribe to Mozilla’s governance group."
>      "Mozilla's Open Policy and Advocacy Blog."
>
> * https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/manifesto/
>      "The Mozilla Manifesto and Addendum represent Mozilla’s commitment
> to ..."
>
> * https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/about
>      "Addons.mozilla.org (AMO), is Mozilla's official site"
>
>
>
> In general, it seems en-US is free to use a declension after brand names
> for the possesive form, while other languages are not allowed to do it.
>
> Should dashes and apostrophes have an impact on the brand name, it would
> be the same for these texts:
>
> (en-US) Mozilla's / Mozilla-related / Mozilla-based
> (tr) Mozilla’nın
> (gn) Mozilla-pe
>
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Michael Bauer-11
And there was me thinking Brexit was the height of absurdity. But as my
mother used to say, one mountain tall, another one taller so
congratulations, I'm awarding Mozilla this month's Wooden Spoon of
Absurdity.

Go ahead, block me for saying that, I'm honestly way past the point
where I care. Nothing we ever say on this list ever seems to make any
difference, it's mainly a tool for party political broadcasts these
days. The only reason I maintain the translations is out of loyalty to
our users. You've used up all my goodwill - and there had been quite of
lot of that to begin with.

Nice going for a browser project getting squeezed for market share <slow
clap>. But I'm sure clamping down on inflections of product names will
fix that.

M

Sgrìobh Jeff Beatty na leanas 30/08/2019 aig 20:58:
> According to Tim's email, English is also subject to these rules and the
> style guide has been updated to specify that constructs using apostrophes
> or other grammar points with the brand are prohibited (i.e., no "Firefox's"
> but "Firefox browser's" is ok).
>

_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Michal Stanke-2
Hi fellow localizers, Hi Tim.

I cannot say I am happy by the decision that we are not allowed to decline
brand names like Firefox and Mozilla. I take it as a fact, understand why
the rule is in place to (legally) preserve the brand, and I wanted to stay
a passive listener to this conversation originally. But it made me check
how we actually handle Mozilla and Firefox brands in Czech translations and
realized a possibility, that our ways to avoid declensions may not work for
the future.

In Czech it's usually not too hard to avoid declensions of the brand. We
always tried to avoid declension using "filler" nouns like organization,
application or browser, that precede Mozilla or Firefox in the sentence and
carry the grammatical declension. It may sound unnatural especially in the
case one want to use Mozilla multiple times, or both Mozilla and Firefox
declined in the same sentence, but our language has some more tricks in the
sleeve (pronouns) to help it sound natural again.

When I checked in Czech for declined Mozilla and Firefox (guilty..., we
have many ocurrences) I realized there is probably one issue rising and I
haven't seen it to be mentioned yet. It is the shift of Firefox as a brand
for not just the browser, but also for account, mobile apps for Notes,
Screenshots, web apps like Monitor and Send, and possibly far more. The
shift itself is nothing that users would struggle with, but as a localizer,
one day I may struggle to properly express it in all appropriate
situations. As long as there is a grammatical possibility for us to use
Firefox as is in a sentence, it's fine. But the moment we need to avoid
declensions using the "filler" nouns, one may not find any, that would
satisfy all the possible shapes and shades of Firefox.

I don't think the issue with omni-meaning of Firefox it there already, but
I noticed its trace in an old string "Continue with Firefox" to open Pocket
from the Firefox browser. And I can imagine a sentence like "Browse the
web, share files and monitor password leaks, all with Firefox". It's really
an artificial and dump example, but I think it illustrates an example,
where no "filler" noun is appropriate with the meaning of *the* Firefox.
--
Michal Stanke


pá 30. 8. 2019 v 22:41 odesílatel Michael Bauer <[hidden email]> napsal:

> And there was me thinking Brexit was the height of absurdity. But as my
> mother used to say, one mountain tall, another one taller so
> congratulations, I'm awarding Mozilla this month's Wooden Spoon of
> Absurdity.
>
> Go ahead, block me for saying that, I'm honestly way past the point
> where I care. Nothing we ever say on this list ever seems to make any
> difference, it's mainly a tool for party political broadcasts these
> days. The only reason I maintain the translations is out of loyalty to
> our users. You've used up all my goodwill - and there had been quite of
> lot of that to begin with.
>
> Nice going for a browser project getting squeezed for market share <slow
> clap>. But I'm sure clamping down on inflections of product names will
> fix that.
>
> M
>
> Sgrìobh Jeff Beatty na leanas 30/08/2019 aig 20:58:
> > According to Tim's email, English is also subject to these rules and the
> > style guide has been updated to specify that constructs using apostrophes
> > or other grammar points with the brand are prohibited (i.e., no
> "Firefox's"
> > but "Firefox browser's" is ok).
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Eduardo Trápani
In reply to this post by Julen Ruiz Aizpuru
On 23/8/19 10:45, Julen Ruiz Aizpuru wrote:

> If none of the options are considered legal from the Brand team, I
> believe the best option for Basque is to start localizing such
> sentences by skipping the brand name

That might work. I don't know if it makes a lot of sense to protect the
brand by not using it ... but if your other proposals are not
acceptable, I don't see another gramatically sound solution.

By the way, that (leaving out the brand name) already happens across
translations. Some examples:

(it) https://pontoon.mozilla.org/it/firefox/all-resources/?string=197030
(cs) https://pontoon.mozilla.org/cs/firefox/all-resources/?string=177652
(fi) https://pontoon.mozilla.org/fi/firefox/all-resources/?string=192274
(fr) https://pontoon.mozilla.org/fr/firefox/all-resources/?string=178286
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Michal Stanke-2
For Czech (cs) in this specific string we left out the brand for a
different reason, not related to the "unchanged" rule. Usually it's because
of style, space constraint or to make it sound natural.

However here is the brand missing in Czech, because we cannot squeeze it to
the limited space to single line if the brand cannot be declined.
https://pontoon.mozilla.org/cs/firefox/all-resources/?status=warnings&string=175816
Or this one
https://pontoon.mozilla.org/cs/firefox/all-resources/?status=warnings&string=192102

--
Michal Stanke

Dne po 2. 9. 2019 15:05 uživatel Eduardo Trápani <[hidden email]>
napsal:

> On 23/8/19 10:45, Julen Ruiz Aizpuru wrote:
>
> > If none of the options are considered legal from the Brand team, I
> > believe the best option for Basque is to start localizing such
> > sentences by skipping the brand name
>
> That might work. I don't know if it makes a lot of sense to protect the
> brand by not using it ... but if your other proposals are not
> acceptable, I don't see another gramatically sound solution.
>
> By the way, that (leaving out the brand name) already happens across
> translations. Some examples:
>
> (it) https://pontoon.mozilla.org/it/firefox/all-resources/?string=197030
> (cs) https://pontoon.mozilla.org/cs/firefox/all-resources/?string=177652
> (fi) https://pontoon.mozilla.org/fi/firefox/all-resources/?string=192274
> (fr) https://pontoon.mozilla.org/fr/firefox/all-resources/?string=178286
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Eduardo Trápani
It's ok, the reason why each locale did it doesn't really matter (there
is no rule to keep the brand name in the string).

It could be space, legibility, ... I was just pointing out that leaving
out the brand name would not be something unheard of.

On 2/9/19 10:18, Michal Stanke wrote:

> For Czech (cs) in this specific string we left out the brand for a
> different reason, not related to the "unchanged" rule. Usually it's
> because of style, space constraint or to make it sound natural.
>
> However here is the brand missing in Czech, because we cannot squeeze it
> to the limited space to single line if the brand cannot be declined.
> https://pontoon.mozilla.org/cs/firefox/all-resources/?status=warnings&string=175816 
> Or this one
> https://pontoon.mozilla.org/cs/firefox/all-resources/?status=warnings&string=192102
>
> --
> Michal Stanke
>
> Dne po 2. 9. 2019 15:05 uživatel Eduardo Trápani <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> napsal:
>
>     On 23/8/19 10:45, Julen Ruiz Aizpuru wrote:
>
>      > If none of the options are considered legal from the Brand team, I
>      > believe the best option for Basque is to start localizing such
>      > sentences by skipping the brand name
>
>     That might work. I don't know if it makes a lot of sense to protect the
>     brand by not using it ... but if your other proposals are not
>     acceptable, I don't see another gramatically sound solution.
>
>     By the way, that (leaving out the brand name) already happens across
>     translations. Some examples:
>
>     (it) https://pontoon.mozilla.org/it/firefox/all-resources/?string=197030
>     (cs) https://pontoon.mozilla.org/cs/firefox/all-resources/?string=177652
>     (fi) https://pontoon.mozilla.org/fi/firefox/all-resources/?string=192274
>     (fr) https://pontoon.mozilla.org/fr/firefox/all-resources/?string=178286
>     _______________________________________________
>     dev-l10n mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

dnazer
Hello all,

I am IP & Product Counsel at Mozilla.

We saw this thread about trademark and translation. To help everyone navigate these issues, we've added more guidance to the documentation for localizers.

That new guidance is here: https://mozilla-l10n.github.io/styleguides/mozilla_general/index.html#brands-copyright-and-trademark

I've also pasted the relevant guidance below (but it's easier to read on the web).

Best,
Daniel Nazer
Senior IP & Product Counsel
Mozilla Corporation
______________________________

Trademarks present a special case for localization as they have legal as well as semantic significance. To ensure that localization does not undermine Mozilla’s trademarks rights, please follow these rules when translating content that includes trademarks.

This page has a list of Mozilla trademarks. https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/trademarks/list/

Use in local languages with non-Latin script / permissible transcriptions

When your local language is not written in the Latin alphabet and you use a Mozilla trademark in a headline, a prominent position, or for the first time on a site, you should always use it in its original form in Latin script (e.g. Mozilla, Firefox, Thunderbird). Mozilla trademarks should therefore not be altered in prominent UI elements. For example, do not alter “Firefox” in the first-run menus, or for the first use of the term in landing pages and legal notices.

If you use the trademarks in a referential context after that, within continuous text, you may use a transcribed local language version. If a transcribed local version is used, each community must take care to select a single version and use it consistently. This should be in the form that is the most used and accepted expression in digital/print media.

Correct example:

    Finally released: the Firefox Quantum Update! In November 2017, Mozilla has released the latest version of its Firefox software. […]

    Наконец выпущен: обновление квантового Firefox Quantum! В ноябре 2017 года Mozilla выпустила последнюю версию своего программного обеспечения для Файрфокс. […]

Incorrect example:

    Finally released: the Firefox Quantum Update! In November 2017, Mozilla has released the latest version of its Firefox software. […]

    Наконец выпущен: обновление квантового Файрфокс квантум! В ноябре 2017 года Моцилла выпустила последнюю версию своего программного обеспечения для Файрфокс. […]

Use in local languages with Latin script

When your local language is written in the Latin alphabet, you should always use Mozilla’s trademarks in their original Latin script form. This also applies if the respective terms should be pronounced differently in your local language. You should therefore not modify the original Mozilla trademarks in order to reflect or facilitate local pronunciation.

Correct example:

    In November 2017, Mozilla has released the latest version of its Firefox software. […]

    W listopadzie 2017 roku Mozilla wydała najnowszą wersję swojego oprogramowania Firefox. […]

Incorrect example:

    In November 2017, Mozilla has released the latest version of its Firefox software. […]

    W listopadzie 2017 roku Mozilla wydała najnowszą wersję swojego oprogramowania Firefoks, […]

Translations of trademarks

Always use Mozilla’s trademarks in their original wording, even if you are transcribing them into your local non-Latin alphabet (per the guidance under point 1 above). For example, do not translate Firefox into another language by using words that have the meaning of “fire” and “fox” in that language.[1]

If you want to explain how a Mozilla trademark is pronounced in your local language or what it means if translated literally, you may do so in a referential context only. When doing so, you should also state expressly that you want to explain the meaning or pronunciation of the term.

Correct example:

    The newest version of the Mozilla Firefox software – which literally means “fire fox” – outpaces its opponents and lives up to its name. […]

    Die neueste Version der Firefox Software – was wörtlich übersetzt “Feuerfuchs” bedeutet – überholt all ihre Konkurrenten und macht ihrem Namen alle Ehre. […]

Incorrect example:

    The newest version of Mozilla’s Firefox software outpaces its opponents and lives up to its name.

    Die neueste Version von Mozillas Feuerfuchs Software überholt all ihre Konkurrenten und macht ihrem Namen alle Ehre.

[1] The only exception to this rule is the Chinese characters for “Fire” and “Fox” together. Mozilla has a registered trademark on these characters (China Reg. No. 16199671A).

Declensions

As noted above, when you use a Mozilla trademark in a headline, a prominent page position or UI element (such as first-run application menus or the first use of the term in landing pages and legal notices), or for the first time on a site, you should always use it in its original, unaltered form.

If your language requires declension of proper nouns and adjectives, try to limit their use to the following cases:

    Grammatical unintelligibility requirements.
    The contextual meaning of the proper noun requires the declension.
    The UI cannot accommodate a large enough translation to avoid it.

In other cases, avoid using declension on trademarks.

Never use Mozilla trademarks as verbs and do not coin verbs out of Mozilla trademarks.


_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Michal Stanke-2
Hi Daniel.

Thank you and the team for opening the issue of brands and trademarks. I am
happy for the possibilities that the new guidelines open for us. I only
hope it wasn't at a cost of exaggerative pressure on you. Few remarks:
- It probably came with some website update, but I was not aware of this
list <https://www.mozilla.org/foundation/trademarks/list/> before. I am
happy to see an explicit list on one place.
- "for the first time on a site, you should always use it in its original,
unaltered form" does an wordmark image logo in the website header count as
first time occurrence, or should I better make sure also the first time in
translated text?
- "Never use Mozilla trademarks as verbs and do not coin verbs out of
Mozilla trademarks." I thought Czech can be very creative, but this never
occurred to me. Maybe an adjective is possible to make in our language, but
I don't even want to try.
--
Michal Stanke


čt 10. 10. 2019 v 20:45 odesílatel <[hidden email]> napsal:

> Hello all,
>
> I am IP & Product Counsel at Mozilla.
>
> We saw this thread about trademark and translation. To help everyone
> navigate these issues, we've added more guidance to the documentation for
> localizers.
>
> That new guidance is here:
> https://mozilla-l10n.github.io/styleguides/mozilla_general/index.html#brands-copyright-and-trademark
>
> I've also pasted the relevant guidance below (but it's easier to read on
> the web).
>
> Best,
> Daniel Nazer
> Senior IP & Product Counsel
> Mozilla Corporation
> ______________________________
>
> Trademarks present a special case for localization as they have legal as
> well as semantic significance. To ensure that localization does not
> undermine Mozilla’s trademarks rights, please follow these rules when
> translating content that includes trademarks.
>
> This page has a list of Mozilla trademarks.
> https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/trademarks/list/
>
> Use in local languages with non-Latin script / permissible transcriptions
>
> When your local language is not written in the Latin alphabet and you use
> a Mozilla trademark in a headline, a prominent position, or for the first
> time on a site, you should always use it in its original form in Latin
> script (e.g. Mozilla, Firefox, Thunderbird). Mozilla trademarks should
> therefore not be altered in prominent UI elements. For example, do not
> alter “Firefox” in the first-run menus, or for the first use of the term in
> landing pages and legal notices.
>
> If you use the trademarks in a referential context after that, within
> continuous text, you may use a transcribed local language version. If a
> transcribed local version is used, each community must take care to select
> a single version and use it consistently. This should be in the form that
> is the most used and accepted expression in digital/print media.
>
> Correct example:
>
>     Finally released: the Firefox Quantum Update! In November 2017,
> Mozilla has released the latest version of its Firefox software. […]
>
>     Наконец выпущен: обновление квантового Firefox Quantum! В ноябре 2017
> года Mozilla выпустила последнюю версию своего программного обеспечения для
> Файрфокс. […]
>
> Incorrect example:
>
>     Finally released: the Firefox Quantum Update! In November 2017,
> Mozilla has released the latest version of its Firefox software. […]
>
>     Наконец выпущен: обновление квантового Файрфокс квантум! В ноябре 2017
> года Моцилла выпустила последнюю версию своего программного обеспечения для
> Файрфокс. […]
>
> Use in local languages with Latin script
>
> When your local language is written in the Latin alphabet, you should
> always use Mozilla’s trademarks in their original Latin script form. This
> also applies if the respective terms should be pronounced differently in
> your local language. You should therefore not modify the original Mozilla
> trademarks in order to reflect or facilitate local pronunciation.
>
> Correct example:
>
>     In November 2017, Mozilla has released the latest version of its
> Firefox software. […]
>
>     W listopadzie 2017 roku Mozilla wydała najnowszą wersję swojego
> oprogramowania Firefox. […]
>
> Incorrect example:
>
>     In November 2017, Mozilla has released the latest version of its
> Firefox software. […]
>
>     W listopadzie 2017 roku Mozilla wydała najnowszą wersję swojego
> oprogramowania Firefoks, […]
>
> Translations of trademarks
>
> Always use Mozilla’s trademarks in their original wording, even if you are
> transcribing them into your local non-Latin alphabet (per the guidance
> under point 1 above). For example, do not translate Firefox into another
> language by using words that have the meaning of “fire” and “fox” in that
> language.[1]
>
> If you want to explain how a Mozilla trademark is pronounced in your local
> language or what it means if translated literally, you may do so in a
> referential context only. When doing so, you should also state expressly
> that you want to explain the meaning or pronunciation of the term.
>
> Correct example:
>
>     The newest version of the Mozilla Firefox software – which literally
> means “fire fox” – outpaces its opponents and lives up to its name. […]
>
>     Die neueste Version der Firefox Software – was wörtlich übersetzt
> “Feuerfuchs” bedeutet – überholt all ihre Konkurrenten und macht ihrem
> Namen alle Ehre. […]
>
> Incorrect example:
>
>     The newest version of Mozilla’s Firefox software outpaces its
> opponents and lives up to its name.
>
>     Die neueste Version von Mozillas Feuerfuchs Software überholt all ihre
> Konkurrenten und macht ihrem Namen alle Ehre.
>
> [1] The only exception to this rule is the Chinese characters for “Fire”
> and “Fox” together. Mozilla has a registered trademark on these characters
> (China Reg. No. 16199671A).
>
> Declensions
>
> As noted above, when you use a Mozilla trademark in a headline, a
> prominent page position or UI element (such as first-run application menus
> or the first use of the term in landing pages and legal notices), or for
> the first time on a site, you should always use it in its original,
> unaltered form.
>
> If your language requires declension of proper nouns and adjectives, try
> to limit their use to the following cases:
>
>     Grammatical unintelligibility requirements.
>     The contextual meaning of the proper noun requires the declension.
>     The UI cannot accommodate a large enough translation to avoid it.
>
> In other cases, avoid using declension on trademarks.
>
> Never use Mozilla trademarks as verbs and do not coin verbs out of Mozilla
> trademarks.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
12