Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
38 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Peiying Mo
Hello Everyone,

It was brought to our attention that a recent release of Firefox desktop
contains localized brand names. Though there have been discussions on brand
and localization as late as last year, the policy has not changed: no
localization, no transliteration, no declension. *Mozilla brand names must
remain unchanged*. This applies to Mozilla products, desktop and mobile,
and websites. Here is the full list of Mozilla trademarked brands.
<https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/trademarks/list/>

@Locale managers and translators, please include this guideline when
onboarding new contributors. When you spot the issue in the translation,
communicate to the community and watch for new instances. If possible
conduct a global review product by product to make sure this problem is
corrected.

Thank you,
Peiying
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Eduardo Trápani
On 22/8/19 13:18, Peiying Mo wrote:

Hi! Please note that the questions below are not meant to start a new
discussion here, or to disagree with the policy, but rather to be sure
of the things we should be reviewing and fixing to abide by it:
> It was brought to our attention that a recent release of Firefox desktop
> contains localized brand names. Though there have been discussions on brand
> and localization as late as last year, the policy has not changed: no
> localization, no transliteration, no declension. *Mozilla brand names must

About declensions, does this mean that, for example, these strings
should be changed?

(en-US) Firefox Home (Default)
    (eu) Firefoxen hasiera-orria (lehenetsia)
    (et) Firefoxi avaleht (vaikimisi)
    (fi) Firefoxin aloitussivu (oletus)
    ...

https://transvision.mozfr.org/string/?entity=browser/browser/preferences/preferences.ftl:home-mode-choice-default.label&repo=gecko_strings 


> remain unchanged*. This applies to Mozilla products, desktop and mobile,
> and websites. Here is the full list of Mozilla trademarked brands.
> <https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/trademarks/list/>

I don't see "Sync" in the list. But it is defined in
branding/official/brand.properties. Does this policy cover it too?

(en-US) Sync
    (eo) Spegulado
    (zh-CN)     同步
    ...

https://transvision.mozfr.org/string/?entity=browser/branding/official/brand.properties:syncBrandShortName&repo=gecko_strings

_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Jeff Beatty
On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 12:30 PM Eduardo Trápani <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 22/8/19 13:18, Peiying Mo wrote:
>
> Hi! Please note that the questions below are not meant to start a new
> discussion here, or to disagree with the policy, but rather to be sure
> of the things we should be reviewing and fixing to abide by it:
> > It was brought to our attention that a recent release of Firefox desktop
> > contains localized brand names. Though there have been discussions on
> brand
> > and localization as late as last year, the policy has not changed: no
> > localization, no transliteration, no declension. *Mozilla brand names
> must
>
> About declensions, does this mean that, for example, these strings
> should be changed?
>
> (en-US) Firefox Home (Default)
>     (eu) Firefoxen hasiera-orria (lehenetsia)
>     (et) Firefoxi avaleht (vaikimisi)
>     (fi) Firefoxin aloitussivu (oletus)
>
Yes, that's correct.

>     ...
>
>
> https://transvision.mozfr.org/string/?entity=browser/browser/preferences/preferences.ftl:home-mode-choice-default.label&repo=gecko_strings
>
>
> > remain unchanged*. This applies to Mozilla products, desktop and mobile,
> > and websites. Here is the full list of Mozilla trademarked brands.
> > <https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/trademarks/list/>
>
> I don't see "Sync" in the list. But it is defined in
> branding/official/brand.properties. Does this policy cover it too?
>
> (en-US) Sync
>     (eo) Spegulado
>     (zh-CN)     同步
>
We admit that the Brand team has lacked clarity on what is considered a
"brand" and thus falls under this policy. "Sync" is one of those vague
terms in limbo. I recommend that if the term is found in a brand.xyz file,
that it should remain in English. Other occasions where the word "sync"
lowercase occur should be translated.

I want to also reiterate the "if possible" aspect of Peiying's request to
perform a global review for these brand issues. I don't expect everyone to
have the time to do this and I know that our current tooling makes this
difficult. Our primary ask right now is that you be aware of this policy
when you happen upon strings containing brand names and that those in the
community with mentorship roles educate others about this practice. Our
secondary reason for bringing it up is that we're currently working out
ways to better enforce this policy through tooling and plan to correct them
over time. So if you suddenly see a push to your repo or contribution in
Pontoon from Flod, Delphine, or Pei that reverts a
translated/transliterated brand name back to English, please don't be
alarmed.

Hope this helps,
Jeff
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Michael Bauer-11
So how do you propose inflecting languages handle such things without
breaking their grammar?

M

Sgrìobh Jeff Beatty na leanas 22/08/2019 aig 20:13:
>> (en-US) Firefox Home (Default)
>>      (eu) Firefoxen hasiera-orria (lehenetsia)
>>      (et) Firefoxi avaleht (vaikimisi)
>>      (fi) Firefoxin aloitussivu (oletus)
>>
> Yes, that's correct.
>

_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Jeff Beatty
Not being an expert in the intricacies of all languages (who is?), I can't
speak to what options everyone has at their disposal. I know that the Brand
team is firm on this policy and despite our multiple attempts to convince
them otherwise, there's no wiggle room, unfortunately.

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 2:51 PM Michael Bauer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So how do you propose inflecting languages handle such things without
> breaking their grammar?
>
> M
>
> Sgrìobh Jeff Beatty na leanas 22/08/2019 aig 20:13:
> >> (en-US) Firefox Home (Default)
> >>      (eu) Firefoxen hasiera-orria (lehenetsia)
> >>      (et) Firefoxi avaleht (vaikimisi)
> >>      (fi) Firefoxin aloitussivu (oletus)
> >>
> > Yes, that's correct.
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Michael Bauer-11
You don't have to be fluent in 150 language to know that there are
languages that stick bits on other words. Even if you had no knowledge
of how languages work, the obvious thing would be to *ask* the
translators at your disposal if approach X works and if not, why not.
Between Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian, Basque, Czech and Russian being
long established locales, surely someone would have pointed out the obvious.

So you implemented a policy without considering what a language like
Basque for example where <of> or <'s> is expressed by sticking <en> or
<aren> on the end of the noun is supposed to do when it has to say
something like "Mozilla's browser"?

Wow. Just wow.

Does the brand team realize this is more restrictive that even
Microsoft's policy? Microsoft localization allows suffixes as long as
you don't change the letters of the product name itself, such as

Hae kuvia Microsoftin ClipArt-kokoelmasta. (Finnish)
Microsoft Storen laitesovellus (Finnish)
Wordi automatiseerimisteenused (Estonian)
Skypové jméno (Czech)

and in some cases, even the root may be modified:
Na Skypu (Czech)
Do Chortana (Gaelic)

M

Sgrìobh Jeff Beatty na leanas 22/08/2019 aig 21:57:
> Not being an expert in the intricacies of all languages (who is?), I can't
> speak to what options everyone has at their disposal. I know that the Brand
> team is firm on this policy and despite our multiple attempts to convince
> them otherwise, there's no wiggle room, unfortunately.

_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Jeff Beatty
On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 3:17 PM Michael Bauer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You don't have to be fluent in 150 language to know that there are
> languages that stick bits on other words. Even if you had no knowledge
> of how languages work, the obvious thing would be to *ask* the
> translators at your disposal if approach X works and if not, why not.
> Between Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian, Basque, Czech and Russian being
> long established locales, surely someone would have pointed out the
> obvious.
>
> Reading between the lines of my last message, this is the point I'm
making: who am I to tell you how to adhere to the policy when I don't know
your language? I trust everyone here can make recommendations for how
they'd like to proceed to handle these cases and work with us to make sure
those recommendations adhere to the policy and produce a reasonable
localization.

> So you implemented a policy without considering what a language like
> Basque for example where <of> or <'s> is expressed by sticking <en> or
> <aren> on the end of the noun is supposed to do when it has to say
> something like "Mozilla's browser"?
>
> Wow. Just wow.
>
>
Let's not assume that the l10n team blindly made recommendations to the
Brand team of how to craft the policy. I wouldn't categorize our
involvement as wholly blind, ignorant, or hasty.  A certain level of
assumed expertise, competence, and professionalism would be helpful here.

> Does the brand team realize this is more restrictive that even
> Microsoft's policy? Microsoft localization allows suffixes as long as
> you don't change the letters of the product name itself, such as
>
> Hae kuvia Microsoftin ClipArt-kokoelmasta. (Finnish)
> Microsoft Storen laitesovellus (Finnish)
> Wordi automatiseerimisteenused (Estonian)
> Skypové jméno (Czech)
>
> We spent a full year advising Branding on how to treat the brand in other
languages. We pulled in examples like these to justify our position and
represent the past requests from localizers like you to have more
flexibility, with many localizers alongside us in meetings with the Brand
team. Ultimately, it's not the l10n team's call to make, but to make
informed recommendations to Brand and inform Brand of the trade-offs
associated with a more strict policy versus a more flexible one. We've done
what we can by leveraging examples from Microsoft, Google, and others.

> and in some cases, even the root may be modified:
> Na Skypu (Czech)
> Do Chortana (Gaelic)
>
> M
>
> Sgrìobh Jeff Beatty na leanas 22/08/2019 aig 21:57:
> > Not being an expert in the intricacies of all languages (who is?), I
> can't
> > speak to what options everyone has at their disposal. I know that the
> Brand
> > team is firm on this policy and despite our multiple attempts to convince
> > them otherwise, there's no wiggle room, unfortunately.
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Artem Polivanchuk
Hello Everyone,

Since Pontoon currently doesn't support glossary, which could be one of the solutions for keeping brand names consistent across projects, the locale managers should take care of it.
At the moment I would suggest having a link to the mentioned list of brand names in the Pontoon's Team Info tab like this:
https://pontoon.mozilla.org/uk/firefox/team-info/

By the way, Firefox Sync is not presented in the list. In my locale, this term is always translated, otherwise, it might be not clear for all users.
The same is for Firefox Account.

Best regards,
Artem

пт, 23 серп. 2019 о 00:33 Jeff Beatty <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> пише:
On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 3:17 PM Michael Bauer <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

> You don't have to be fluent in 150 language to know that there are
> languages that stick bits on other words. Even if you had no knowledge
> of how languages work, the obvious thing would be to *ask* the
> translators at your disposal if approach X works and if not, why not.
> Between Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian, Basque, Czech and Russian being
> long established locales, surely someone would have pointed out the
> obvious.
>
> Reading between the lines of my last message, this is the point I'm
making: who am I to tell you how to adhere to the policy when I don't know
your language? I trust everyone here can make recommendations for how
they'd like to proceed to handle these cases and work with us to make sure
those recommendations adhere to the policy and produce a reasonable
localization.

> So you implemented a policy without considering what a language like
> Basque for example where <of> or <'s> is expressed by sticking <en> or
> <aren> on the end of the noun is supposed to do when it has to say
> something like "Mozilla's browser"?
>
> Wow. Just wow.
>
>
Let's not assume that the l10n team blindly made recommendations to the
Brand team of how to craft the policy. I wouldn't categorize our
involvement as wholly blind, ignorant, or hasty.  A certain level of
assumed expertise, competence, and professionalism would be helpful here.

> Does the brand team realize this is more restrictive that even
> Microsoft's policy? Microsoft localization allows suffixes as long as
> you don't change the letters of the product name itself, such as
>
> Hae kuvia Microsoftin ClipArt-kokoelmasta. (Finnish)
> Microsoft Storen laitesovellus (Finnish)
> Wordi automatiseerimisteenused (Estonian)
> Skypové jméno (Czech)
>
> We spent a full year advising Branding on how to treat the brand in other
languages. We pulled in examples like these to justify our position and
represent the past requests from localizers like you to have more
flexibility, with many localizers alongside us in meetings with the Brand
team. Ultimately, it's not the l10n team's call to make, but to make
informed recommendations to Brand and inform Brand of the trade-offs
associated with a more strict policy versus a more flexible one. We've done
what we can by leveraging examples from Microsoft, Google, and others.

> and in some cases, even the root may be modified:
> Na Skypu (Czech)
> Do Chortana (Gaelic)
>
> M
>
> Sgrìobh Jeff Beatty na leanas 22/08/2019 aig 21:57:
> > Not being an expert in the intricacies of all languages (who is?), I
> can't
> > speak to what options everyone has at their disposal. I know that the
> Brand
> > team is firm on this policy and despite our multiple attempts to convince
> > them otherwise, there's no wiggle room, unfortunately.
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Francesco Lodolo [:flod]
Noting that there are conversations happening around both "Firefox
Account" and "Sync", and the policy might change, at the moment
they're both considered localizable.

"Firefox Account": account is localizable, Firefox needs to remain unchanged.

"Sync" is localizable. Note that the confusion between "Sync as a
verb" and "Sync as a feature" should not be possible in Fluent
strings, since the latter is always represented by a term. For that
reason, please DO NOT replace the term with a localized term.

feature: Sign in to { -sync-brand-short-name }
verb: Sync bookmarks now…

All FTL files have clear localization comments
https://hg.mozilla.org/l10n/gecko-strings/file/default/browser/branding/official/brand.ftl
https://hg.mozilla.org/l10n/gecko-strings/file/default/browser/browser/branding/sync-brand.ftl
https://hg.mozilla.org/l10n/gecko-strings/file/default/browser/browser/branding/brandings.ftl

Francesco

Il giorno ven 23 ago 2019 alle ore 08:10 Artem Polivanchuk
<[hidden email]> ha scritto:

>
> Hello Everyone,
>
> Since Pontoon currently doesn't support glossary, which could be one of the solutions for keeping brand names consistent across projects, the locale managers should take care of it.
> At the moment I would suggest having a link to the mentioned list of brand names in the Pontoon's Team Info tab like this:
> https://pontoon.mozilla.org/uk/firefox/team-info/
>
> By the way, Firefox Sync is not presented in the list. In my locale, this term is always translated, otherwise, it might be not clear for all users.
> The same is for Firefox Account.
>
> Best regards,
> Artem
>
> пт, 23 серп. 2019 о 00:33 Jeff Beatty <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> пише:
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 3:17 PM Michael Bauer <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> > You don't have to be fluent in 150 language to know that there are
> > languages that stick bits on other words. Even if you had no knowledge
> > of how languages work, the obvious thing would be to *ask* the
> > translators at your disposal if approach X works and if not, why not.
> > Between Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian, Basque, Czech and Russian being
> > long established locales, surely someone would have pointed out the
> > obvious.
> >
> > Reading between the lines of my last message, this is the point I'm
> making: who am I to tell you how to adhere to the policy when I don't know
> your language? I trust everyone here can make recommendations for how
> they'd like to proceed to handle these cases and work with us to make sure
> those recommendations adhere to the policy and produce a reasonable
> localization.
>
> > So you implemented a policy without considering what a language like
> > Basque for example where <of> or <'s> is expressed by sticking <en> or
> > <aren> on the end of the noun is supposed to do when it has to say
> > something like "Mozilla's browser"?
> >
> > Wow. Just wow.
> >
> >
> Let's not assume that the l10n team blindly made recommendations to the
> Brand team of how to craft the policy. I wouldn't categorize our
> involvement as wholly blind, ignorant, or hasty.  A certain level of
> assumed expertise, competence, and professionalism would be helpful here.
>
> > Does the brand team realize this is more restrictive that even
> > Microsoft's policy? Microsoft localization allows suffixes as long as
> > you don't change the letters of the product name itself, such as
> >
> > Hae kuvia Microsoftin ClipArt-kokoelmasta. (Finnish)
> > Microsoft Storen laitesovellus (Finnish)
> > Wordi automatiseerimisteenused (Estonian)
> > Skypové jméno (Czech)
> >
> > We spent a full year advising Branding on how to treat the brand in other
> languages. We pulled in examples like these to justify our position and
> represent the past requests from localizers like you to have more
> flexibility, with many localizers alongside us in meetings with the Brand
> team. Ultimately, it's not the l10n team's call to make, but to make
> informed recommendations to Brand and inform Brand of the trade-offs
> associated with a more strict policy versus a more flexible one. We've done
> what we can by leveraging examples from Microsoft, Google, and others.
>
> > and in some cases, even the root may be modified:
> > Na Skypu (Czech)
> > Do Chortana (Gaelic)
> >
> > M
> >
> > Sgrìobh Jeff Beatty na leanas 22/08/2019 aig 21:57:
> > > Not being an expert in the intricacies of all languages (who is?), I
> > can't
> > > speak to what options everyone has at their disposal. I know that the
> > Brand
> > > team is firm on this policy and despite our multiple attempts to convince
> > > them otherwise, there's no wiggle room, unfortunately.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > dev-l10n mailing list
> > [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
> > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
> >
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Michael Bauer-11
In reply to this post by Jeff Beatty


Sgrìobh Jeff Beatty na leanas 22/08/2019 aig 22:33:
>
> Reading between the lines of my last message, this is the point I'm
> making: who am I to tell you how to adhere to the policy when I don't
> know your language? I trust everyone here can make recommendations for
> how they'd like to proceed to handle these cases and work with us to
> make sure those recommendations adhere to the policy and produce a
> reasonable localization.
That is such a non-answer. That's like saying "the rules are no moving
on two feet but that aside because I don't know how you personally move
around, it's up to you how to implement that"...

>
> Let's not assume that the l10n team blindly made recommendations to
> the Brand team of how to craft the policy. I wouldn't categorize our
> involvement as wholly blind, ignorant, or hasty.  A certain level of
> assumed expertise, competence, and professionalism would be helpful here.
Sorry, I'm an evidence-based person, I don't do faith, it's
unscientific... The evidence says that whatever the l10n team presentend
to Branding did not make much difference, we're still being told to
implement something un-implementable.

>
>
> We spent a full year advising Branding on how to treat the brand in
> other languages. We pulled in examples like these to justify our
> position and represent the past requests from localizers like you to
> have more flexibility, with many localizers alongside us in meetings
> with the Brand team. Ultimately, it's not the l10n team's call to
> make, but to make informed recommendations to Brand and inform Brand
> of the trade-offs associated with a more strict policy versus a more
> flexible one. We've done what we can by leveraging examples from
> Microsoft, Google, and others.
So the branding team now run Mozilla? Nobody who sits *above* branding
who is willing to apply a modicum of common sense and kick some sense
into branding?

This conversation feels like communicating with Google or Microsoft
except we don't get paid by Mozilla...

M
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Julen Ruiz Aizpuru
In reply to this post by Jeff Beatty
Hau idatzi du Jeff Beatty ([hidden email]) erabiltzaileak (2019
abu. 22, og. (21:13)):

>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 12:30 PM Eduardo Trápani <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 22/8/19 13:18, Peiying Mo wrote:
> >
> > Hi! Please note that the questions below are not meant to start a new
> > discussion here, or to disagree with the policy, but rather to be sure
> > of the things we should be reviewing and fixing to abide by it:
> > > It was brought to our attention that a recent release of Firefox desktop
> > > contains localized brand names. Though there have been discussions on
> > brand
> > > and localization as late as last year, the policy has not changed: no
> > > localization, no transliteration, no declension. *Mozilla brand names
> > must
> >
> > About declensions, does this mean that, for example, these strings
> > should be changed?
> >
> > (en-US) Firefox Home (Default)
> >     (eu) Firefoxen hasiera-orria (lehenetsia)
> >     (et) Firefoxi avaleht (vaikimisi)
> >     (fi) Firefoxin aloitussivu (oletus)
> >
> Yes, that's correct.

In opposition to 'Firefoxen', is Mozilla considering 'Firefox-en' as
declension? What about 'Firefox(r)en'?

To give more details on why we may use one or another:
- 'Firefox-en' would be grammatically correct if we consider 'Firefox'
to be a word unknown to the reader. It'd be a pity to mark this
artificial distance between the user and Firefox, especially given
that it's repeated so often. It'd still be readable and
understandable.
- 'Firefox(r)en' is something artificial we use due to placeholders
and because we don't know if e.g. `&brandShortName;` ends in a
consonant or a vowel. There's no magic we can do in terms of grammar,
that's why we end up with such workaround. I'm not aware FTL helps
either.

Can someone from the Brand team please chime in and clarify which
symbols around the word 'Firefox' are considered declension from a
trademark point of view?

I'd like to think one of the options I mentioned above is possible, at
least to the extent English is using "Firefox's".

If none of the options are considered legal from the Brand team, I
believe the best option for Basque is to start localizing such
sentences by skipping the brand name, provided they are not part of
legal texts and they don't infringe any other policies I'm not aware
of.


Julen.
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Jeff Beatty
Thanks for your questions, Julen.We'll reach out to the brand team and ask
them to clarify the definition of declension from a trademark point of
view. We'll try to get them to weigh-in here.

Jeff

El vie., 23 de ago. de 2019 07:46, Julen Ruiz Aizpuru <[hidden email]>
escribió:

> Hau idatzi du Jeff Beatty ([hidden email]) erabiltzaileak (2019
> abu. 22, og. (21:13)):
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 12:30 PM Eduardo Trápani <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > On 22/8/19 13:18, Peiying Mo wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi! Please note that the questions below are not meant to start a new
> > > discussion here, or to disagree with the policy, but rather to be sure
> > > of the things we should be reviewing and fixing to abide by it:
> > > > It was brought to our attention that a recent release of Firefox
> desktop
> > > > contains localized brand names. Though there have been discussions on
> > > brand
> > > > and localization as late as last year, the policy has not changed: no
> > > > localization, no transliteration, no declension. *Mozilla brand names
> > > must
> > >
> > > About declensions, does this mean that, for example, these strings
> > > should be changed?
> > >
> > > (en-US) Firefox Home (Default)
> > >     (eu) Firefoxen hasiera-orria (lehenetsia)
> > >     (et) Firefoxi avaleht (vaikimisi)
> > >     (fi) Firefoxin aloitussivu (oletus)
> > >
> > Yes, that's correct.
>
> In opposition to 'Firefoxen', is Mozilla considering 'Firefox-en' as
> declension? What about 'Firefox(r)en'?
>
> To give more details on why we may use one or another:
> - 'Firefox-en' would be grammatically correct if we consider 'Firefox'
> to be a word unknown to the reader. It'd be a pity to mark this
> artificial distance between the user and Firefox, especially given
> that it's repeated so often. It'd still be readable and
> understandable.
> - 'Firefox(r)en' is something artificial we use due to placeholders
> and because we don't know if e.g. `&brandShortName;` ends in a
> consonant or a vowel. There's no magic we can do in terms of grammar,
> that's why we end up with such workaround. I'm not aware FTL helps
> either.
>
> Can someone from the Brand team please chime in and clarify which
> symbols around the word 'Firefox' are considered declension from a
> trademark point of view?
>
> I'd like to think one of the options I mentioned above is possible, at
> least to the extent English is using "Firefox's".
>
> If none of the options are considered legal from the Brand team, I
> believe the best option for Basque is to start localizing such
> sentences by skipping the brand name, provided they are not part of
> legal texts and they don't infringe any other policies I'm not aware
> of.
>
>
> Julen.
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Jonathan Kew
On 23/08/2019 15:12, Jeff Beatty wrote:
> Thanks for your questions, Julen.We'll reach out to the brand team and ask
> them to clarify the definition of declension from a trademark point of
> view. We'll try to get them to weigh-in here.
>
> Jeff
>

Just to weigh in as an outsider to the L10n team (but with a fairly long
history of involvement with languages and software in various ways), I
would urge the Brand team to reconsider this.

I can easily understand not wanting brands to be "translated" (e.g. we
don't want to do "Firefox" -> "Eldräv", as if we were to literally
translate "fire" and "fox" into Swedish, or "Feuerfuchs" in German).

But just as it's reasonable to write "Firefox's <whatever>" in English,
attaching the possessive suffix to the brand name because that's how
English grammar works,[1] and this doesn't somehow damage or weaken the
brand, it's equally reasonable -- and indeed necessary -- to allow other
languages to attach their affixes to the brand name, so that the word
can fit grammatically into their content.

JK

[1] And yes, examples of this -- in official Mozilla content -- are easy
to find.

> El vie., 23 de ago. de 2019 07:46, Julen Ruiz Aizpuru <[hidden email]>
> escribió:
>
>> Hau idatzi du Jeff Beatty ([hidden email]) erabiltzaileak (2019
>> abu. 22, og. (21:13)):
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 12:30 PM Eduardo Trápani <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 22/8/19 13:18, Peiying Mo wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi! Please note that the questions below are not meant to start a new
>>>> discussion here, or to disagree with the policy, but rather to be sure
>>>> of the things we should be reviewing and fixing to abide by it:
>>>>> It was brought to our attention that a recent release of Firefox
>> desktop
>>>>> contains localized brand names. Though there have been discussions on
>>>> brand
>>>>> and localization as late as last year, the policy has not changed: no
>>>>> localization, no transliteration, no declension. *Mozilla brand names
>>>> must
>>>>
>>>> About declensions, does this mean that, for example, these strings
>>>> should be changed?
>>>>
>>>> (en-US) Firefox Home (Default)
>>>>      (eu) Firefoxen hasiera-orria (lehenetsia)
>>>>      (et) Firefoxi avaleht (vaikimisi)
>>>>      (fi) Firefoxin aloitussivu (oletus)
>>>>
>>> Yes, that's correct.
>>
>> In opposition to 'Firefoxen', is Mozilla considering 'Firefox-en' as
>> declension? What about 'Firefox(r)en'?
>>
>> To give more details on why we may use one or another:
>> - 'Firefox-en' would be grammatically correct if we consider 'Firefox'
>> to be a word unknown to the reader. It'd be a pity to mark this
>> artificial distance between the user and Firefox, especially given
>> that it's repeated so often. It'd still be readable and
>> understandable.
>> - 'Firefox(r)en' is something artificial we use due to placeholders
>> and because we don't know if e.g. `&brandShortName;` ends in a
>> consonant or a vowel. There's no magic we can do in terms of grammar,
>> that's why we end up with such workaround. I'm not aware FTL helps
>> either.
>>
>> Can someone from the Brand team please chime in and clarify which
>> symbols around the word 'Firefox' are considered declension from a
>> trademark point of view?
>>
>> I'd like to think one of the options I mentioned above is possible, at
>> least to the extent English is using "Firefox's".
>>
>> If none of the options are considered legal from the Brand team, I
>> believe the best option for Basque is to start localizing such
>> sentences by skipping the brand name, provided they are not part of
>> legal texts and they don't infringe any other policies I'm not aware
>> of.
>>
>>
>> Julen.
>> _______________________________________________
>> dev-l10n mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>

_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Julen Ruiz Aizpuru
Hau idatzi du Jonathan Kew ([hidden email]) erabiltzaileak (2019
abu. 23, or. (16:27)):

>
> On 23/08/2019 15:12, Jeff Beatty wrote:
> > Thanks for your questions, Julen.We'll reach out to the brand team and ask
> > them to clarify the definition of declension from a trademark point of
> > view. We'll try to get them to weigh-in here.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
>
> Just to weigh in as an outsider to the L10n team (but with a fairly long
> history of involvement with languages and software in various ways), I
> would urge the Brand team to reconsider this.
>
> I can easily understand not wanting brands to be "translated" (e.g. we
> don't want to do "Firefox" -> "Eldräv", as if we were to literally
> translate "fire" and "fox" into Swedish, or "Feuerfuchs" in German).
>
> But just as it's reasonable to write "Firefox's <whatever>" in English,
> attaching the possessive suffix to the brand name because that's how
> English grammar works,[1] and this doesn't somehow damage or weaken the
> brand, it's equally reasonable -- and indeed necessary -- to allow other
> languages to attach their affixes to the brand name, so that the word
> can fit grammatically into their content.
>
> JK
>
> [1] And yes, examples of this -- in official Mozilla content -- are easy
> to find.

I didn't want to question the policy because I have no time or energy
to start doing so, but let me add a +1 to everything that you clearly
wrote.

All in all, we are not trying to bastardize the brand or changing its
original meaning nor written form at all.

Julen.
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

அருண் குமார் (Arun Kumar)
Hi all

We Tamil (ta) team do have same concern as other language team.

We never did Tranalation for brandnames but we did translitration for brand
names.

its hard frame sentence without having them translitrated to local langauge
without having grammatical errors and making sure that end users can
understand the Firefox(பயர்பாக்சு) Browser UI usage.

Why are we transliterating brand names in Tamil?

If the string is less than or equal to 2 words it may make sense to leave
brand name as it is.

If the string has more words or sentences than it is hard create meaningful
translation in user context.

If needed I can show examples of complex strings.

I totally agree with Julen and Jonathan point of view.


> Just to weigh in as an outsider to the L10n team (but with a fairly long
> > history of involvement with languages and software in various ways), I
> > would urge the Brand team to reconsider this.
> >
> > I can easily understand not wanting brands to be "translated" (e.g. we
> > don't want to do "Firefox" -> "Eldräv", as if we were to literally
> > translate "fire" and "fox" into Swedish, or "Feuerfuchs" in German).
> >
> > But just as it's reasonable to write "Firefox's <whatever>" in English,
> > attaching the possessive suffix to the brand name because that's how
> > English grammar works,[1] and this doesn't somehow damage or weaken the
> > brand, it's equally reasonable -- and indeed necessary -- to allow other
> > languages to attach their affixes to the brand name, so that the word
> > can fit grammatically into their content.
>
+1

> [1] And yes, examples of this -- in official Mozilla content -- are easy
> > to find.
>
> I didn't want to question the policy because I have no time or energy
> to start doing so, but let me add a +1 to everything that you clearly
> wrote.
>
> All in all, we are not trying to bastardize the brand or changing its
> original meaning nor written form at all.
>
+1

Otherwise, lets do community voting for brand name translitration and not
for translation and then go with Majority of votes.

Regards
Tamil(ta)L10n Team, Tamil Nadu, India
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Jeff Beatty
Hi all,

Adding Tim Murray here, Mozilla's Creative Director. He leads the Brand
team and is responsible for creative strategy and brand positioning.

As I've mentioned previously, this is Tim's decision to make, but I'm sure
he'll be willing to provide some clarity to the declension discussion.

Tim is not registered in the mailing list, so please make sure to hit
"Reply All" to include him on the thread.

Jeff

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 11:06 PM அருண் குமார் (Arun Kumar) <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all
>
> We Tamil (ta) team do have same concern as other language team.
>
> We never did Tranalation for brandnames but we did translitration for brand
> names.
>
> its hard frame sentence without having them translitrated to local langauge
> without having grammatical errors and making sure that end users can
> understand the Firefox(பயர்பாக்சு) Browser UI usage.
>
> Why are we transliterating brand names in Tamil?
>
> If the string is less than or equal to 2 words it may make sense to leave
> brand name as it is.
>
> If the string has more words or sentences than it is hard create meaningful
> translation in user context.
>
> If needed I can show examples of complex strings.
>
> I totally agree with Julen and Jonathan point of view.
>
>
> > Just to weigh in as an outsider to the L10n team (but with a fairly long
> > > history of involvement with languages and software in various ways), I
> > > would urge the Brand team to reconsider this.
> > >
> > > I can easily understand not wanting brands to be "translated" (e.g. we
> > > don't want to do "Firefox" -> "Eldräv", as if we were to literally
> > > translate "fire" and "fox" into Swedish, or "Feuerfuchs" in German).
> > >
> > > But just as it's reasonable to write "Firefox's <whatever>" in English,
> > > attaching the possessive suffix to the brand name because that's how
> > > English grammar works,[1] and this doesn't somehow damage or weaken the
> > > brand, it's equally reasonable -- and indeed necessary -- to allow
> other
> > > languages to attach their affixes to the brand name, so that the word
> > > can fit grammatically into their content.
> >
> +1
>
> > [1] And yes, examples of this -- in official Mozilla content -- are easy
> > > to find.
> >
> > I didn't want to question the policy because I have no time or energy
> > to start doing so, but let me add a +1 to everything that you clearly
> > wrote.
> >
> > All in all, we are not trying to bastardize the brand or changing its
> > original meaning nor written form at all.
> >
> +1
>
> Otherwise, lets do community voting for brand name translitration and not
> for translation and then go with Majority of votes.
>
> Regards
> Tamil(ta)L10n Team, Tamil Nadu, India
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Danishka Navin
In reply to this post by அருண் குமார் (Arun Kumar)
On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 10:36 AM அருண் குமார் (Arun Kumar) <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all
>
> We Tamil (ta) team do have same concern as other language team.
>
> We never did Tranalation for brandnames but we did translitration for brand
> names.
>
> its hard frame sentence without having them translitrated to local langauge
> without having grammatical errors and making sure that end users can
> understand the Firefox(பயர்பாக்சு) Browser UI usage.
>
> Why are we transliterating brand names in Tamil?
>
> If the string is less than or equal to 2 words it may make sense to leave
> brand name as it is.
>
> If the string has more words or sentences than it is hard create meaningful
> translation in user context.
>
> If needed I can show examples of complex strings.
>
> I totally agree with Julen and Jonathan point of view.
>
>
> > Just to weigh in as an outsider to the L10n team (but with a fairly long
> > > history of involvement with languages and software in various ways), I
> > > would urge the Brand team to reconsider this.
> > >
> > > I can easily understand not wanting brands to be "translated" (e.g. we
> > > don't want to do "Firefox" -> "Eldräv", as if we were to literally
> > > translate "fire" and "fox" into Swedish, or "Feuerfuchs" in German).
> > >
> > > But just as it's reasonable to write "Firefox's <whatever>" in English,
> > > attaching the possessive suffix to the brand name because that's how
> > > English grammar works,[1] and this doesn't somehow damage or weaken the
> > > brand, it's equally reasonable -- and indeed necessary -- to allow
> other
> > > languages to attach their affixes to the brand name, so that the word
> > > can fit grammatically into their content.
> >
> +1
>
> > [1] And yes, examples of this -- in official Mozilla content -- are easy
> > > to find.
> >
> > I didn't want to question the policy because I have no time or energy
> > to start doing so, but let me add a +1 to everything that you clearly
> > wrote.
> >
> > All in all, we are not trying to bastardize the brand or changing its
> > original meaning nor written form at all.
> >
> +1
>
> Otherwise, lets do community voting for brand name translitration and not
> for translation and then go with Majority of votes.
>
>
-1
The community doesn't own the brand name if I am not wrong.
Its own by Mozilla isn't it?

We neither translate nor transliterate brandnames.
For example, we keep both Firefox and Mozilla as it is.

Some of the local journalists and bloggers use to pronounce the
transliterated name but we never change the way we work.
Now its the standard in school syllabus as well "Firefox" (in English
text).

I don't mind what other communities follow but we prefer to keep the brand
name in English.
Its same for rest of the FOSS projects as well. We use the English term as
it is, for example. LibreOffice, Fedora.

There are local drivers who can not read English but they pronounce brand
names vehicles and they can recognize them no matter which brand it is.
For example, Toyota, Nisan, BMW. Toyota Lexus, etc Those are just labels
for them. Same for Airlines, Banks, Food items, Shopping malls
No difference for Firefox as well.

My next point is have you ever registered the transliterated brand in your
country?
What if someone registered the localized brand?


> Regards
> Tamil(ta)L10n Team, Tamil Nadu, India
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>


--
Danishka Navin
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Tim Murray
In reply to this post by Jeff Beatty
Thanks, Jeff.

Thanks Julen et. al. for posing questions about these specific examples.
The L10n team has far greater knowledge in the linguistics of declensions
and other grammatical rules for specific languages than anyone else at
Mozilla, so we defer to your expertise while still recommending that we not
alter the Firefox name.

The guidance offered by the Brand and Legal teams derives from an audit of
how most global brands treat their native-English names other languages,
which showed that the great majority of brands do not localize their
trademarked names. Consistent use confers both recognition and legal
protection globally. We want to apply a consistent approach across all
languages because an exception in one will encourage exceptions in others,
making it hard to manage consistently.

For what it's worth, in English, our style guide recommends avoiding using
the possessive when referring to Firefox. We adjust sentence structure to
avoid using "Firefox's" as a construction, for instance. Not being a native
speaker of the languages you cite, might a similar solution be possible in
this case? Would for instance changing "Firefox Home" to "Home for Firefox"
or something similar be a way out of this linguistic bind?"

Thank you again for helping to ensure that our brands are showing up in
ways that protect them while being as grammatically correct as possible.

Tim

On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 9:15 AM Jeff Beatty <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Adding Tim Murray here, Mozilla's Creative Director. He leads the Brand
> team and is responsible for creative strategy and brand positioning.
>
> As I've mentioned previously, this is Tim's decision to make, but I'm sure
> he'll be willing to provide some clarity to the declension discussion.
>
> Tim is not registered in the mailing list, so please make sure to hit
> "Reply All" to include him on the thread.
>
> Jeff
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 11:06 PM அருண் குமார் (Arun Kumar) <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> We Tamil (ta) team do have same concern as other language team.
>>
>> We never did Tranalation for brandnames but we did translitration for
>> brand
>> names.
>>
>> its hard frame sentence without having them translitrated to local
>> langauge
>> without having grammatical errors and making sure that end users can
>> understand the Firefox(பயர்பாக்சு) Browser UI usage.
>>
>> Why are we transliterating brand names in Tamil?
>>
>> If the string is less than or equal to 2 words it may make sense to leave
>> brand name as it is.
>>
>> If the string has more words or sentences than it is hard create
>> meaningful
>> translation in user context.
>>
>> If needed I can show examples of complex strings.
>>
>> I totally agree with Julen and Jonathan point of view.
>>
>>
>> > Just to weigh in as an outsider to the L10n team (but with a fairly long
>> > > history of involvement with languages and software in various ways), I
>> > > would urge the Brand team to reconsider this.
>> > >
>> > > I can easily understand not wanting brands to be "translated" (e.g. we
>> > > don't want to do "Firefox" -> "Eldräv", as if we were to literally
>> > > translate "fire" and "fox" into Swedish, or "Feuerfuchs" in German).
>> > >
>> > > But just as it's reasonable to write "Firefox's <whatever>" in
>> English,
>> > > attaching the possessive suffix to the brand name because that's how
>> > > English grammar works,[1] and this doesn't somehow damage or weaken
>> the
>> > > brand, it's equally reasonable -- and indeed necessary -- to allow
>> other
>> > > languages to attach their affixes to the brand name, so that the word
>> > > can fit grammatically into their content.
>> >
>> +1
>>
>> > [1] And yes, examples of this -- in official Mozilla content -- are easy
>> > > to find.
>> >
>> > I didn't want to question the policy because I have no time or energy
>> > to start doing so, but let me add a +1 to everything that you clearly
>> > wrote.
>> >
>> > All in all, we are not trying to bastardize the brand or changing its
>> > original meaning nor written form at all.
>> >
>> +1
>>
>> Otherwise, lets do community voting for brand name translitration and not
>> for translation and then go with Majority of votes.
>>
>> Regards
>> Tamil(ta)L10n Team, Tamil Nadu, India
>> _______________________________________________
>> dev-l10n mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>>
>

--
Tim Murray  : :  Creative Director
San Francisco   : :  @FromMars
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Youghourta Benali
In reply to this post by Peiying Mo
Hey all,

we discussed  this issue multiple times in the past, and I reiterate my
position.

while "not translating" the brand makes sense, forbidding
transliteration *doesn't
make any sense.*

You have to consider languages that are not written in Latin letters (and
people who can't read Latin letters)

just imagine that Firefox brand name was originally written in Arabic, and
you are asked to keep it like this "فيرفكس" even in US/English pages.

here is the result we get

[image: firefox-transliteration.png]


as a English speaker who can't read Arabic, are you able to read or
recognize the brand name here?

I highly doubt it.

this is exactly what you are asking us to do, but for other languages.

I think these kind of decisions should not be taken from the "English point
of view" but rather from a global point of view. we are going to "damage"
the brand name if we don't allow even transliteration.


keep in mind that we are localizing in order to help the communities we are
localizing for. Prioritizing marketing over "helping the communities" is
not a wise decision IMHO.

Best,
--
Youghourta Benali
@djug


Le jeu. 22 août 2019 à 17:19, Peiying Mo <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Hello Everyone,
>
> It was brought to our attention that a recent release of Firefox desktop
> contains localized brand names. Though there have been discussions on brand
> and localization as late as last year, the policy has not changed: no
> localization, no transliteration, no declension. *Mozilla brand names must
> remain unchanged*. This applies to Mozilla products, desktop and mobile,
> and websites. Here is the full list of Mozilla trademarked brands.
> <https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/trademarks/list/>
>
> @Locale managers and translators, please include this guideline when
> onboarding new contributors. When you spot the issue in the translation,
> communicate to the community and watch for new instances. If possible
> conduct a global review product by product to make sure this problem is
> corrected.
>
> Thank you,
> Peiying
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n-web mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n-web
>
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [l10n-web] Reminder: Brand names remain unchanged

Michael Bauer-11
In reply to this post by Tim Murray

Sgrìobh Tim Murray na leanas 27/08/2019 aig 21:06:
> Thanks, Jeff.
>
> Thanks Julen et. al. for posing questions about these specific examples.
> The L10n team has far greater knowledge in the linguistics of declensions
> and other grammatical rules for specific languages than anyone else at
> Mozilla,
Funny then that I don't recall the l10n list ever being consulted when
these "rules" were drawn up. I mean, if we're the experts and there's an
issue that looks like it might require input from experts ... but let's
put that aside for a moment.

> The guidance offered by the Brand and Legal teams derives from an audit of
> how most global brands treat their native-English names other languages,
> which showed that the great majority of brands do not localize their
> trademarked names.
Except that case marking doesn't seem to be considered "altering" by
some pretty big multinationals. Take Microsoft, which is perfectly ok
with localizers adding endings onto Microsoft product names and doesn't
consider something like "Microsoft Storen laitesovellus" or "Skypové
jméno" ocalization of the brand names "Microsoft Store" and "Skype" (I
could send you thousands of examples but these will do to illustrate the
point). I So why on *earth* the holier-than-thou approach at Mozilla
which unlike Microsoft has something of a history of linguistic *inclusion*?

> Not being a native
> speaker of the languages you cite, might a similar solution be possible in
> this case? Would for instance changing "Firefox Home" to "Home for Firefox"
> or something similar be a way out of this linguistic bind?"
That doesn't solve anything because there are languages that don't have
words like "to" or "for" or "of" or "from". In such languages you simply
*have* to stick endings onto a word. This is not something you can work
around, this is built into these languages like plural s in cats or -ing
on a verb is built into English. Asking a language like Basque not to
put then ending ren (one form of "of") or tik (one form of "from") onto
words renders translation as impossible as asking an English translator
to translate without using plural -s and -ing but all the while making
sure the translations are correct.

In language there simply isn't a one-size-fits-all approach.

Michael
_______________________________________________
dev-l10n mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
12