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Reading fiction

Ron Hunter
The recent thread in this group about reading fantasy and science
fiction was fun, and here is an article that seems to back up what I was
thinking about the people here who read fiction books.
http://mic.com/articles/104702/science-shows-something-surprising-about-people-who-love-reading-fiction
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Re: Reading fiction

Wolf K.
On 2015-01-10 4:03 PM, Ron Hunter wrote:
> The recent thread in this group about reading fantasy and science
> fiction was fun, and here is an article that seems to back up what I was
> thinking about the people here who read fiction books.
> http://mic.com/articles/104702/science-shows-something-surprising-about-people-who-love-reading-fiction

C S Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism, is relevant here, if you can find it.

--
Best,
Wolf K.
kirkwood40.blogspot.ca
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Re: Reading fiction (2)

Wolf K.
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
On 2015-01-10 4:03 PM, Ron Hunter wrote:
[...]
As the Guardian reports, Kidd argues that applying the skills we use
when reading critically to the real world makes sense because "the same
psychological processes are used to navigate fiction and real
relationships. Fiction is not just a simulator of a social experience,
it is a social experience."

You probably know your fave fictional characters better than you know
most of the real people in your life. I think that's one of the
attraction of soap opera.

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Wolf K.
kirkwood40.blogspot.ca
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Re: Reading fiction

Ed Mullen-9
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
Ron Hunter wrote on 1/10/2015 4:03 PM:
> The recent thread in this group about reading fantasy and science
> fiction was fun, and here is an article that seems to back up what I was
> thinking about the people here who read fiction books.
> http://mic.com/articles/104702/science-shows-something-surprising-about-people-who-love-reading-fiction
>

I'm glad I am aging in this world where people seem to regard books and
reading as passe'.

The world and its people will be very dull in years to come, even more
dull than already.

One of the best things about fiction, especially about science fiction,
is the imagining of possibilities.  What happens when people stop imagining?

Starting to read the classics of sci-fi in the 60s led me to embrace
wondering.  No, not wanting my reality to devolve into sci-fi worlds.
But, understanding that the world could be more than that which stares
us in the face.  Possibilities, that there might be more to life than
first meets the eye. Actually, as I think about it, sci-fi and fiction
replaced for me Roman Catholicism, which failed, ultimately, to resonate
at all with me.

In feeling that, my life opened up, my world opened up.  And I was more
open to possibilities, and I tried more things, I was more open to
accepting more things, I became a more tolerant person and, hence, had a
wider view of the world.

Reading is, really, learning about the world.  Learning about the world
is, really, learning how to live with other people.  Learning how to
live with others is, really, about tolerance.

Tolerance is, really, peace.

Now!  Let's go blow up some Muslim terrorists!

Sigh.

Even tolerance has its limits.


--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net/
"There's only two things that money can't buy and that's true love and
home grown tomatoes." - Guy Clark
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Re: Reading fiction (2)

Ed Mullen-9
In reply to this post by Wolf K.
Wolf K. wrote on 1/10/2015 7:52 PM:

> On 2015-01-10 4:03 PM, Ron Hunter wrote:
> [...]
> As the Guardian reports, Kidd argues that applying the skills we use
> when reading critically to the real world makes sense because "the same
> psychological processes are used to navigate fiction and real
> relationships. Fiction is not just a simulator of a social experience,
> it is a social experience."
>
> You probably know your fave fictional characters better than you know
> most of the real people in your life. I think that's one of the
> attraction of soap opera.
>

I agree, and it's an excellent point, Wolf.

But, fictional characters are a lot easier to understand.  They are much
less dimensional than actual people.  I have a couple of very close
friends.  And a wife of 41 years.  I am frequently astounded by them.  I
am seldom, after a chapter or so, surprised by fictional characters.
They can't possibly be as complex as real people.  Not nearly as
surprising.  Else I suspect the book would be 1200 pages instead of 350.

Perhaps that's why they are so satisfying.  We can skim their surface
and enjoy them without ever being too surprised by them.

And they are SO much less annoying because they're so much less surprising.

Not less interesting at all!  In fact, fictional characters can be much
more fascinating than real people for the simple fact that their
personas are so limited, by design.

"Okay, I'm creating Bob.  He is what I make him to be in, say, the first
50 pages.  And that's who he's gonna be for the other 300 pages."

That doesn't happen in real life.  People change.  I met my wife when I
was 21.  I'm 64 1/2.  Ya think I'm the same person now as I was in 1971?
Sure, some essentials haven't changed but experience is now the key.
Those 4 decades would have been a waste if I weren't different now.

Although, I have to admit, I would like to have been Valentine Michael
Smith for at least a little while. :-)


--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net/
Funny, I don't remember being absent minded.
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Re: Reading fiction

Ed Mullen-9
In reply to this post by Ed Mullen-9
Ed Mullen wrote on 1/10/2015 8:04 PM:

> Ron Hunter wrote on 1/10/2015 4:03 PM:
>> The recent thread in this group about reading fantasy and science
>> fiction was fun, and here is an article that seems to back up what I was
>> thinking about the people here who read fiction books.
>> http://mic.com/articles/104702/science-shows-something-surprising-about-people-who-love-reading-fiction
>>
>>
>
> I'm glad I am aging in this world where people seem to regard books and
> reading as passe'.
>
> The world and its people will be very dull in years to come, even more
> dull than already.
>
> One of the best things about fiction, especially about science fiction,
> is the imagining of possibilities.  What happens when people stop
> imagining?
>
> Starting to read the classics of sci-fi in the 60s led me to embrace
> wondering.  No, not wanting my reality to devolve into sci-fi worlds.
> But, understanding that the world could be more than that which stares
> us in the face.  Possibilities, that there might be more to life than
> first meets the eye. Actually, as I think about it, sci-fi and fiction
> replaced for me Roman Catholicism, which failed, ultimately, to resonate
> at all with me.
>
> In feeling that, my life opened up, my world opened up.  And I was more
> open to possibilities, and I tried more things, I was more open to
> accepting more things, I became a more tolerant person and, hence, had a
> wider view of the world.
>
> Reading is, really, learning about the world.  Learning about the world
> is, really, learning how to live with other people.  Learning how to
> live with others is, really, about tolerance.
>
> Tolerance is, really, peace.
>
> Now!  Let's go blow up some Muslim terrorists!
>
> Sigh.
>
> Even tolerance has its limits.
>
>

BTW, regarding previous discussions ...

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land>

A pretty good article.


--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net/
If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled?
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Re: Reading fiction

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by Ed Mullen-9
On 1/10/2015 7:04 PM, Ed Mullen wrote:

> Ron Hunter wrote on 1/10/2015 4:03 PM:
>> The recent thread in this group about reading fantasy and science
>> fiction was fun, and here is an article that seems to back up what I was
>> thinking about the people here who read fiction books.
>> http://mic.com/articles/104702/science-shows-something-surprising-about-people-who-love-reading-fiction
>>
>>
>
> I'm glad I am aging in this world where people seem to regard books and
> reading as passe'.
>
> The world and its people will be very dull in years to come, even more
> dull than already.
>
> One of the best things about fiction, especially about science fiction,
> is the imagining of possibilities.  What happens when people stop
> imagining?
>
> Starting to read the classics of sci-fi in the 60s led me to embrace
> wondering.  No, not wanting my reality to devolve into sci-fi worlds.
> But, understanding that the world could be more than that which stares
> us in the face.  Possibilities, that there might be more to life than
> first meets the eye. Actually, as I think about it, sci-fi and fiction
> replaced for me Roman Catholicism, which failed, ultimately, to resonate
> at all with me.
>
> In feeling that, my life opened up, my world opened up.  And I was more
> open to possibilities, and I tried more things, I was more open to
> accepting more things, I became a more tolerant person and, hence, had a
> wider view of the world.
>
> Reading is, really, learning about the world.  Learning about the world
> is, really, learning how to live with other people.  Learning how to
> live with others is, really, about tolerance.
>
> Tolerance is, really, peace.
>
> Now!  Let's go blow up some Muslim terrorists!
>
> Sigh.
>
> Even tolerance has its limits.
>
>
Indeed.  I honor all religions, and try to respect them, and the people
who practice them, but when someone tells me that because I believe
differently about religion, they are going to kill me, well, I take
issue with that, and the religion that proposes it.  I just hope we can
keep a lid on this until I am gone, because I think the next war will be
a really nasty thing.

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Re: Reading fiction (2)

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by Ed Mullen-9
On 1/10/2015 7:17 PM, Ed Mullen wrote:

> Wolf K. wrote on 1/10/2015 7:52 PM:
>> On 2015-01-10 4:03 PM, Ron Hunter wrote:
>> [...]
>> As the Guardian reports, Kidd argues that applying the skills we use
>> when reading critically to the real world makes sense because "the same
>> psychological processes are used to navigate fiction and real
>> relationships. Fiction is not just a simulator of a social experience,
>> it is a social experience."
>>
>> You probably know your fave fictional characters better than you know
>> most of the real people in your life. I think that's one of the
>> attraction of soap opera.
>>
>
> I agree, and it's an excellent point, Wolf.
>
> But, fictional characters are a lot easier to understand.  They are much
> less dimensional than actual people.  I have a couple of very close
> friends.  And a wife of 41 years.  I am frequently astounded by them.  I
> am seldom, after a chapter or so, surprised by fictional characters.
> They can't possibly be as complex as real people.  Not nearly as
> surprising.  Else I suspect the book would be 1200 pages instead of 350.
>
That is one reason the Harry Potter books are so long.

> Perhaps that's why they are so satisfying.  We can skim their surface
> and enjoy them without ever being too surprised by them.
>
> And they are SO much less annoying because they're so much less surprising.
>
> Not less interesting at all!  In fact, fictional characters can be much
> more fascinating than real people for the simple fact that their
> personas are so limited, by design.
>
> "Okay, I'm creating Bob.  He is what I make him to be in, say, the first
> 50 pages.  And that's who he's gonna be for the other 300 pages."
>
In a well written story, the characters change and grow.  IF they
aren't, you need to read a better writer.  Harry Potter starts out at
10, and grows to 18.  LOTS of changes in that time, same goes for his
companions.


> That doesn't happen in real life.  People change.  I met my wife when I
> was 21.  I'm 64 1/2.  Ya think I'm the same person now as I was in 1971?
> Sure, some essentials haven't changed but experience is now the key.
> Those 4 decades would have been a waste if I weren't different now.
>
> Although, I have to admit, I would like to have been Valentine Michael
> Smith for at least a little while. :-)
>
>
Naww, Mike to was too inhibited.  GRIN.

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Re: Reading fiction

Ed Mullen-9
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
Ron Hunter wrote on 1/10/2015 9:13 PM:

> On 1/10/2015 7:04 PM, Ed Mullen wrote:
>> Ron Hunter wrote on 1/10/2015 4:03 PM:
>>> The recent thread in this group about reading fantasy and science
>>> fiction was fun, and here is an article that seems to back up what I was
>>> thinking about the people here who read fiction books.
>>> http://mic.com/articles/104702/science-shows-something-surprising-about-people-who-love-reading-fiction
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I'm glad I am aging in this world where people seem to regard books and
>> reading as passe'.
>>
>> The world and its people will be very dull in years to come, even more
>> dull than already.
>>
>> One of the best things about fiction, especially about science fiction,
>> is the imagining of possibilities.  What happens when people stop
>> imagining?
>>
>> Starting to read the classics of sci-fi in the 60s led me to embrace
>> wondering.  No, not wanting my reality to devolve into sci-fi worlds.
>> But, understanding that the world could be more than that which stares
>> us in the face.  Possibilities, that there might be more to life than
>> first meets the eye. Actually, as I think about it, sci-fi and fiction
>> replaced for me Roman Catholicism, which failed, ultimately, to resonate
>> at all with me.
>>
>> In feeling that, my life opened up, my world opened up.  And I was more
>> open to possibilities, and I tried more things, I was more open to
>> accepting more things, I became a more tolerant person and, hence, had a
>> wider view of the world.
>>
>> Reading is, really, learning about the world.  Learning about the world
>> is, really, learning how to live with other people.  Learning how to
>> live with others is, really, about tolerance.
>>
>> Tolerance is, really, peace.
>>
>> Now!  Let's go blow up some Muslim terrorists!
>>
>> Sigh.
>>
>> Even tolerance has its limits.
>>
>>
> Indeed.  I honor all religions, and try to respect them, and the people
> who practice them, but when someone tells me that because I believe
> differently about religion, they are going to kill me, well, I take
> issue with that, and the religion that proposes it.  I just hope we can
> keep a lid on this until I am gone, because I think the next war will be
> a really nasty thing.
>

And it's not just that you have different beliefs, it's because you do
NOT hold the same beliefs.  Meaning, you could hold NO beliefs and you
still need to be killed.

This country needs to get serious about this threat.

What more do you need to know than:  "They want to kill us." in order to
formulate a policy?

Kill.  Dead.  Their goal is to wipe Western civilization off the planet.

What don't you understand about this?

You can't discuss anything with people like that.  You cannot negotiate.
  You cannot reason because such dogmatic hatred is beyond discussion.

So, let me see.  My neighbor three doors up is armed, dangerous, and his
stated belief is that every third household in his neighborhood needs to
be killed.  Hmm.

Okay.

Now.  What should I do?

Our president thinks that it amounts to:  "Well, not ALL of the EVERY
third neighbor in our neighborhood is bad.  So, let's not all get worked
up!"

Uh huh.

Idiot.

When HE lives in the third household and his family is slaughtered, THEN
I'll maybe listen to his rhetoric.

I'm voting in 2016 for Smith and Wesson.

Enough with these apologistic liberals.

The radical Muslims see no difference between liberals and conservatives
in America.  They are coming after you too.  We are all infidels to
them.  And we are all to be killed because we are not them.

I will likely not live to see it but I am sorry my nieces and nephews
and their kids will suffer through it.  And they are all liberals.  I
suppose I should just wish upon them what they have wrought.  Still, sad
story.

I doubt they will wake up in time but I hope so.


--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net/
Old age is when you still have something on the ball but you are just
too tired to bounce it.
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Re: Reading fiction

Ron Hunter
On 1/10/2015 8:36 PM, Ed Mullen wrote:

> Ron Hunter wrote on 1/10/2015 9:13 PM:
>> On 1/10/2015 7:04 PM, Ed Mullen wrote:
>>> Ron Hunter wrote on 1/10/2015 4:03 PM:
>>>> The recent thread in this group about reading fantasy and science
>>>> fiction was fun, and here is an article that seems to back up what I
>>>> was
>>>> thinking about the people here who read fiction books.
>>>> http://mic.com/articles/104702/science-shows-something-surprising-about-people-who-love-reading-fiction
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm glad I am aging in this world where people seem to regard books and
>>> reading as passe'.
>>>
>>> The world and its people will be very dull in years to come, even more
>>> dull than already.
>>>
>>> One of the best things about fiction, especially about science fiction,
>>> is the imagining of possibilities.  What happens when people stop
>>> imagining?
>>>
>>> Starting to read the classics of sci-fi in the 60s led me to embrace
>>> wondering.  No, not wanting my reality to devolve into sci-fi worlds.
>>> But, understanding that the world could be more than that which stares
>>> us in the face.  Possibilities, that there might be more to life than
>>> first meets the eye. Actually, as I think about it, sci-fi and fiction
>>> replaced for me Roman Catholicism, which failed, ultimately, to resonate
>>> at all with me.
>>>
>>> In feeling that, my life opened up, my world opened up.  And I was more
>>> open to possibilities, and I tried more things, I was more open to
>>> accepting more things, I became a more tolerant person and, hence, had a
>>> wider view of the world.
>>>
>>> Reading is, really, learning about the world.  Learning about the world
>>> is, really, learning how to live with other people.  Learning how to
>>> live with others is, really, about tolerance.
>>>
>>> Tolerance is, really, peace.
>>>
>>> Now!  Let's go blow up some Muslim terrorists!
>>>
>>> Sigh.
>>>
>>> Even tolerance has its limits.
>>>
>>>
>> Indeed.  I honor all religions, and try to respect them, and the people
>> who practice them, but when someone tells me that because I believe
>> differently about religion, they are going to kill me, well, I take
>> issue with that, and the religion that proposes it.  I just hope we can
>> keep a lid on this until I am gone, because I think the next war will be
>> a really nasty thing.
>>
>
> And it's not just that you have different beliefs, it's because you do
> NOT hold the same beliefs.  Meaning, you could hold NO beliefs and you
> still need to be killed.
>
> This country needs to get serious about this threat.
>
> What more do you need to know than:  "They want to kill us." in order to
> formulate a policy?
>
> Kill.  Dead.  Their goal is to wipe Western civilization off the planet.
>
> What don't you understand about this?
>
> You can't discuss anything with people like that.  You cannot negotiate.
>   You cannot reason because such dogmatic hatred is beyond discussion.
>
> So, let me see.  My neighbor three doors up is armed, dangerous, and his
> stated belief is that every third household in his neighborhood needs to
> be killed.  Hmm.
>
> Okay.
>
> Now.  What should I do?
>
> Our president thinks that it amounts to:  "Well, not ALL of the EVERY
> third neighbor in our neighborhood is bad.  So, let's not all get worked
> up!"
>
> Uh huh.
>
> Idiot.
>
> When HE lives in the third household and his family is slaughtered, THEN
> I'll maybe listen to his rhetoric.
>
> I'm voting in 2016 for Smith and Wesson.
>
> Enough with these apologistic liberals.
>
> The radical Muslims see no difference between liberals and conservatives
> in America.  They are coming after you too.  We are all infidels to
> them.  And we are all to be killed because we are not them.
>
> I will likely not live to see it but I am sorry my nieces and nephews
> and their kids will suffer through it.  And they are all liberals.  I
> suppose I should just wish upon them what they have wrought.  Still, sad
> story.
>
> I doubt they will wake up in time but I hope so.
>
>
I guess I a lucky, because I have a pretty good mix of conservative, and
liberal nieces and nephews.  It makes for some lively discussions....

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Re: Reading fiction

Daniel
In reply to this post by Ed Mullen-9
On 11/01/15 13:36, Ed Mullen wrote:

> Ron Hunter wrote on 1/10/2015 9:13 PM:
>> On 1/10/2015 7:04 PM, Ed Mullen wrote:
>>> Ron Hunter wrote on 1/10/2015 4:03 PM:
>>>> The recent thread in this group about reading fantasy and science
>>>> fiction was fun, and here is an article that seems to back up what I
>>>> was
>>>> thinking about the people here who read fiction books.
>>>> http://mic.com/articles/104702/science-shows-something-surprising-about-people-who-love-reading-fiction
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm glad I am aging in this world where people seem to regard books and
>>> reading as passe'.
>>>
>>> The world and its people will be very dull in years to come, even more
>>> dull than already.
>>>
>>> One of the best things about fiction, especially about science fiction,
>>> is the imagining of possibilities.  What happens when people stop
>>> imagining?
>>>
>>> Starting to read the classics of sci-fi in the 60s led me to embrace
>>> wondering.  No, not wanting my reality to devolve into sci-fi worlds.
>>> But, understanding that the world could be more than that which stares
>>> us in the face.  Possibilities, that there might be more to life than
>>> first meets the eye. Actually, as I think about it, sci-fi and fiction
>>> replaced for me Roman Catholicism, which failed, ultimately, to resonate
>>> at all with me.
>>>
>>> In feeling that, my life opened up, my world opened up.  And I was more
>>> open to possibilities, and I tried more things, I was more open to
>>> accepting more things, I became a more tolerant person and, hence, had a
>>> wider view of the world.
>>>
>>> Reading is, really, learning about the world.  Learning about the world
>>> is, really, learning how to live with other people.  Learning how to
>>> live with others is, really, about tolerance.
>>>
>>> Tolerance is, really, peace.
>>>
>>> Now!  Let's go blow up some Muslim terrorists!
>>>
>>> Sigh.
>>>
>>> Even tolerance has its limits.
>>>
>>>
>> Indeed.  I honor all religions, and try to respect them, and the people
>> who practice them, but when someone tells me that because I believe
>> differently about religion, they are going to kill me, well, I take
>> issue with that, and the religion that proposes it.  I just hope we can
>> keep a lid on this until I am gone, because I think the next war will be
>> a really nasty thing.
>>
>
> And it's not just that you have different beliefs, it's because you do
> NOT hold the same beliefs.  Meaning, you could hold NO beliefs and you
> still need to be killed.
>
> This country needs to get serious about this threat.
>
> What more do you need to know than:  "They want to kill us." in order to
> formulate a policy?
>
> Kill.  Dead.  Their goal is to wipe Western civilization off the planet.

No, Ed, they want to wipe off the face of the Earth anybody who does not
believe the same as them!! If I'm a Shit'e Muslim and you are a Sunny
Muslim, you are my mortal enemy and must die!!  If I'm a Sunny Muslim
and you are a Shit'e Muslim, you are my mortal enemy and must die!!

Sort of remind me of the Roman Church v England Church troubles of not
so long ago!!

--
Daniel

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Re: Reading fiction

WaltS48
On 01/11/2015 08:09 AM, Daniel wrote:

> On 11/01/15 13:36, Ed Mullen wrote:
>> Ron Hunter wrote on 1/10/2015 9:13 PM:
>>> On 1/10/2015 7:04 PM, Ed Mullen wrote:
>>>> Ron Hunter wrote on 1/10/2015 4:03 PM:
>>>>> The recent thread in this group about reading fantasy and science
>>>>> fiction was fun, and here is an article that seems to back up what I
>>>>> was
>>>>> thinking about the people here who read fiction books.
>>>>> http://mic.com/articles/104702/science-shows-something-surprising-about-people-who-love-reading-fiction
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm glad I am aging in this world where people seem to regard books and
>>>> reading as passe'.
>>>>
>>>> The world and its people will be very dull in years to come, even more
>>>> dull than already.
>>>>
>>>> One of the best things about fiction, especially about science fiction,
>>>> is the imagining of possibilities.  What happens when people stop
>>>> imagining?
>>>>
>>>> Starting to read the classics of sci-fi in the 60s led me to embrace
>>>> wondering.  No, not wanting my reality to devolve into sci-fi worlds.
>>>> But, understanding that the world could be more than that which stares
>>>> us in the face.  Possibilities, that there might be more to life than
>>>> first meets the eye. Actually, as I think about it, sci-fi and fiction
>>>> replaced for me Roman Catholicism, which failed, ultimately, to
>>>> resonate
>>>> at all with me.
>>>>
>>>> In feeling that, my life opened up, my world opened up.  And I was more
>>>> open to possibilities, and I tried more things, I was more open to
>>>> accepting more things, I became a more tolerant person and, hence,
>>>> had a
>>>> wider view of the world.
>>>>
>>>> Reading is, really, learning about the world.  Learning about the world
>>>> is, really, learning how to live with other people.  Learning how to
>>>> live with others is, really, about tolerance.
>>>>
>>>> Tolerance is, really, peace.
>>>>
>>>> Now!  Let's go blow up some Muslim terrorists!
>>>>
>>>> Sigh.
>>>>
>>>> Even tolerance has its limits.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Indeed.  I honor all religions, and try to respect them, and the people
>>> who practice them, but when someone tells me that because I believe
>>> differently about religion, they are going to kill me, well, I take
>>> issue with that, and the religion that proposes it.  I just hope we can
>>> keep a lid on this until I am gone, because I think the next war will be
>>> a really nasty thing.
>>>
>>
>> And it's not just that you have different beliefs, it's because you do
>> NOT hold the same beliefs.  Meaning, you could hold NO beliefs and you
>> still need to be killed.
>>
>> This country needs to get serious about this threat.
>>
>> What more do you need to know than:  "They want to kill us." in order to
>> formulate a policy?
>>
>> Kill.  Dead.  Their goal is to wipe Western civilization off the planet.
>
> No, Ed, they want to wipe off the face of the Earth anybody who does not
> believe the same as them!! If I'm a Shit'e Muslim and you are a Sunny
> Muslim, you are my mortal enemy and must die!!  If I'm a Sunny Muslim
> and you are a Shit'e Muslim, you are my mortal enemy and must die!!


Most of us don't understand that part.

>
> Sort of remind me of the Roman Church v England Church troubles of not
> so long ago!!
>


Anybody heard of the Crusades? According to this site there were seven
of them.

[Crusades Timeline](http://www.lordsandladies.org/crusades-timeline.htm)

According to Wikipedia there were seven major and numerous minor ones
intermittently over a 200 year period.

[Crusades - Wikipedia, the free
encyclopedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades)

The Inquisitions?

[Inquisition - Wikipedia, the free
encyclopedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition)

[Spanish Inquisition - Wikipedia, the free
encyclopedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition#Previous_Inquisitions)

So anyway.

[▶ Depeche Mode - People Are People (Remastered Video) -
YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzGnX-MbYE4)

--
Strip District Music Fest 2015-01-17
<http://www.stripdistrictmusicfest.com/>
Je Suis Charlie
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Re: Reading fiction

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by Daniel
On 1/11/2015 7:09 AM, Daniel wrote:

> On 11/01/15 13:36, Ed Mullen wrote:
>> Ron Hunter wrote on 1/10/2015 9:13 PM:
>>> On 1/10/2015 7:04 PM, Ed Mullen wrote:
>>>> Ron Hunter wrote on 1/10/2015 4:03 PM:
>>>>> The recent thread in this group about reading fantasy and science
>>>>> fiction was fun, and here is an article that seems to back up what I
>>>>> was
>>>>> thinking about the people here who read fiction books.
>>>>> http://mic.com/articles/104702/science-shows-something-surprising-about-people-who-love-reading-fiction
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm glad I am aging in this world where people seem to regard books and
>>>> reading as passe'.
>>>>
>>>> The world and its people will be very dull in years to come, even more
>>>> dull than already.
>>>>
>>>> One of the best things about fiction, especially about science fiction,
>>>> is the imagining of possibilities.  What happens when people stop
>>>> imagining?
>>>>
>>>> Starting to read the classics of sci-fi in the 60s led me to embrace
>>>> wondering.  No, not wanting my reality to devolve into sci-fi worlds.
>>>> But, understanding that the world could be more than that which stares
>>>> us in the face.  Possibilities, that there might be more to life than
>>>> first meets the eye. Actually, as I think about it, sci-fi and fiction
>>>> replaced for me Roman Catholicism, which failed, ultimately, to
>>>> resonate
>>>> at all with me.
>>>>
>>>> In feeling that, my life opened up, my world opened up.  And I was more
>>>> open to possibilities, and I tried more things, I was more open to
>>>> accepting more things, I became a more tolerant person and, hence,
>>>> had a
>>>> wider view of the world.
>>>>
>>>> Reading is, really, learning about the world.  Learning about the world
>>>> is, really, learning how to live with other people.  Learning how to
>>>> live with others is, really, about tolerance.
>>>>
>>>> Tolerance is, really, peace.
>>>>
>>>> Now!  Let's go blow up some Muslim terrorists!
>>>>
>>>> Sigh.
>>>>
>>>> Even tolerance has its limits.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Indeed.  I honor all religions, and try to respect them, and the people
>>> who practice them, but when someone tells me that because I believe
>>> differently about religion, they are going to kill me, well, I take
>>> issue with that, and the religion that proposes it.  I just hope we can
>>> keep a lid on this until I am gone, because I think the next war will be
>>> a really nasty thing.
>>>
>>
>> And it's not just that you have different beliefs, it's because you do
>> NOT hold the same beliefs.  Meaning, you could hold NO beliefs and you
>> still need to be killed.
>>
>> This country needs to get serious about this threat.
>>
>> What more do you need to know than:  "They want to kill us." in order to
>> formulate a policy?
>>
>> Kill.  Dead.  Their goal is to wipe Western civilization off the planet.
>
> No, Ed, they want to wipe off the face of the Earth anybody who does not
> believe the same as them!! If I'm a Shit'e Muslim and you are a Sunny
> Muslim, you are my mortal enemy and must die!!  If I'm a Sunny Muslim
> and you are a Shit'e Muslim, you are my mortal enemy and must die!!
>
> Sort of remind me of the Roman Church v England Church troubles of not
> so long ago!!
>
Not so long ago?  How old ARE you anyway.  Seems like it was three or
four centuries ago, and they weren't quite up to the level of armies
raised against eachother, just potshots here and there.

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Re: Reading fiction

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by WaltS48
On 1/11/2015 7:24 AM, WaltS48 wrote:

> On 01/11/2015 08:09 AM, Daniel wrote:
>> On 11/01/15 13:36, Ed Mullen wrote:
>>> Ron Hunter wrote on 1/10/2015 9:13 PM:
>>>> On 1/10/2015 7:04 PM, Ed Mullen wrote:
>>>>> Ron Hunter wrote on 1/10/2015 4:03 PM:
>>>>>> The recent thread in this group about reading fantasy and science
>>>>>> fiction was fun, and here is an article that seems to back up what I
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> thinking about the people here who read fiction books.
>>>>>> http://mic.com/articles/104702/science-shows-something-surprising-about-people-who-love-reading-fiction
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm glad I am aging in this world where people seem to regard books
>>>>> and
>>>>> reading as passe'.
>>>>>
>>>>> The world and its people will be very dull in years to come, even more
>>>>> dull than already.
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the best things about fiction, especially about science
>>>>> fiction,
>>>>> is the imagining of possibilities.  What happens when people stop
>>>>> imagining?
>>>>>
>>>>> Starting to read the classics of sci-fi in the 60s led me to embrace
>>>>> wondering.  No, not wanting my reality to devolve into sci-fi worlds.
>>>>> But, understanding that the world could be more than that which stares
>>>>> us in the face.  Possibilities, that there might be more to life than
>>>>> first meets the eye. Actually, as I think about it, sci-fi and fiction
>>>>> replaced for me Roman Catholicism, which failed, ultimately, to
>>>>> resonate
>>>>> at all with me.
>>>>>
>>>>> In feeling that, my life opened up, my world opened up.  And I was
>>>>> more
>>>>> open to possibilities, and I tried more things, I was more open to
>>>>> accepting more things, I became a more tolerant person and, hence,
>>>>> had a
>>>>> wider view of the world.
>>>>>
>>>>> Reading is, really, learning about the world.  Learning about the
>>>>> world
>>>>> is, really, learning how to live with other people.  Learning how to
>>>>> live with others is, really, about tolerance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tolerance is, really, peace.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now!  Let's go blow up some Muslim terrorists!
>>>>>
>>>>> Sigh.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even tolerance has its limits.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Indeed.  I honor all religions, and try to respect them, and the people
>>>> who practice them, but when someone tells me that because I believe
>>>> differently about religion, they are going to kill me, well, I take
>>>> issue with that, and the religion that proposes it.  I just hope we can
>>>> keep a lid on this until I am gone, because I think the next war
>>>> will be
>>>> a really nasty thing.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And it's not just that you have different beliefs, it's because you do
>>> NOT hold the same beliefs.  Meaning, you could hold NO beliefs and you
>>> still need to be killed.
>>>
>>> This country needs to get serious about this threat.
>>>
>>> What more do you need to know than:  "They want to kill us." in order to
>>> formulate a policy?
>>>
>>> Kill.  Dead.  Their goal is to wipe Western civilization off the planet.
>>
>> No, Ed, they want to wipe off the face of the Earth anybody who does not
>> believe the same as them!! If I'm a Shit'e Muslim and you are a Sunny
>> Muslim, you are my mortal enemy and must die!!  If I'm a Sunny Muslim
>> and you are a Shit'e Muslim, you are my mortal enemy and must die!!
>
>
> Most of us don't understand that part.
>
>>
>> Sort of remind me of the Roman Church v England Church troubles of not
>> so long ago!!
>>
>
>
> Anybody heard of the Crusades? According to this site there were seven
> of them.
>
> [Crusades Timeline](http://www.lordsandladies.org/crusades-timeline.htm)
>
> According to Wikipedia there were seven major and numerous minor ones
> intermittently over a 200 year period.
>
> [Crusades - Wikipedia, the free
> encyclopedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades)
>
> The Inquisitions?
>
> [Inquisition - Wikipedia, the free
> encyclopedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition)
>
> [Spanish Inquisition - Wikipedia, the free
> encyclopedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition#Previous_Inquisitions)
>
>
> So anyway.
>
> [▶ Depeche Mode - People Are People (Remastered Video) -
> YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzGnX-MbYE4)
>
Did it mention anywhere the economic aspects of the Crusades?  It seemed
great to be defending the christian religion against the evil Muslims,
but the real motive was that they controlled the trade routes with India
and China.  Most wars have more economic influence than religious
influence, although one may be the public reason, and the other the
underlying reason.  Hiding the reason for a war of economic differences
behind an emotional issue is common.  Look at the American Civil War for
a good example.

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Re: Reading fiction

Wolf K.
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
On 2015-01-11 10:00 AM, Ron Hunter wrote:
> On 1/11/2015 7:09 AM, Daniel wrote:
[...]
>> Sort of remind me of the Roman Church v England Church troubles of not
>> so long ago!!
>>
> Not so long ago?  How old ARE you anyway.  Seems like it was three or
> four centuries ago, and they weren't quite up to the level of armies
> raised against each other, just potshots here and there.

Oh, there were armies, all right. Read up on the English Civil Wars of
the 1600s. At least 200,000 people died. The Counter-reformation in
Continental Europe was even worse. We still have family stories about
that, my family was Lutheran almost from the beginning. The religious
wars were marked by slaughter of civilians as well as enemy soldiers. At
intervals in Austria "tolerance edicts" were promulgated, and when the
Protestants showed themselves, their children were taken away from them.
There were what amounted to pogroms against Protestants in some parts of
Central Europe. Etc.

The Irish Troubles the 20th/21st centuries were (are) the last lashing
of that dragon's tail.

HTH

--
Best,
Wolf K.
kirkwood40.blogspot.ca
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Re: Reading fiction

Ron Hunter
On 1/11/2015 10:20 AM, Wolf K. wrote:

> On 2015-01-11 10:00 AM, Ron Hunter wrote:
>> On 1/11/2015 7:09 AM, Daniel wrote:
> [...]
>>> Sort of remind me of the Roman Church v England Church troubles of not
>>> so long ago!!
>>>
>> Not so long ago?  How old ARE you anyway.  Seems like it was three or
>> four centuries ago, and they weren't quite up to the level of armies
>> raised against each other, just potshots here and there.
>
> Oh, there were armies, all right. Read up on the English Civil Wars of
> the 1600s. At least 200,000 people died. The Counter-reformation in
> Continental Europe was even worse. We still have family stories about
> that, my family was Lutheran almost from the beginning. The religious
> wars were marked by slaughter of civilians as well as enemy soldiers. At
> intervals in Austria "tolerance edicts" were promulgated, and when the
> Protestants showed themselves, their children were taken away from them.
> There were what amounted to pogroms against Protestants in some parts of
> Central Europe. Etc.
>
> The Irish Troubles the 20th/21st centuries were (are) the last lashing
> of that dragon's tail.
>
> HTH
>
Hate to point this out, but the 1600s WERE 4 centuries ago.  Grin.  And
the IRA was a terrorist group, hardly an 'army'.  More like a group that
liked to cause trouble, likely for lack of any other significant ability
to do otherwise.

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Re: Reading fiction (2)

»Q«
In reply to this post by Ed Mullen-9
In <news:[hidden email]>,
Ed Mullen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Wolf K. wrote on 1/10/2015 7:52 PM:
> > On 2015-01-10 4:03 PM, Ron Hunter wrote:
> > [...]
> > As the Guardian reports, Kidd argues that applying the skills we use
> > when reading critically to the real world makes sense because "the
> > same psychological processes are used to navigate fiction and real
> > relationships. Fiction is not just a simulator of a social
> > experience, it is a social experience."
> >
> > You probably know your fave fictional characters better than you
> > know most of the real people in your life. I think that's one of the
> > attraction of soap opera.
> >
>
> I agree, and it's an excellent point, Wolf.
>
> But, fictional characters are a lot easier to understand.  They are
> much less dimensional than actual people.  I have a couple of very
> close friends.  And a wife of 41 years.  I am frequently astounded by
> them.  I am seldom, after a chapter or so, surprised by fictional
> characters. They can't possibly be as complex as real people.  Not
> nearly as surprising.  Else I suspect the book would be 1200 pages
> instead of 350.

Maybe that's why I generally prefer 1200-page books to 350-page ones.

Good authors can create very complex characters who change and reveal
new facets over the course of a work.  But they have the benefit of a
whole host of techniques to do so, not available when looking at
real-life people -- e.g. a biography in which the author takes the
stance of an omniscient narrator is extremely annoying, even if he does
a "good" job of it.
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Re: Reading fiction

Daniel
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
On 12/01/15 12:40, Ron Hunter wrote:

> On 1/11/2015 10:20 AM, Wolf K. wrote:
>> On 2015-01-11 10:00 AM, Ron Hunter wrote:
>>> On 1/11/2015 7:09 AM, Daniel wrote:
>> [...]
>>>> Sort of remind me of the Roman Church v England Church troubles of not
>>>> so long ago!!
>>>>
>>> Not so long ago?  How old ARE you anyway.  Seems like it was three or
>>> four centuries ago, and they weren't quite up to the level of armies
>>> raised against each other, just potshots here and there.
>>
>> Oh, there were armies, all right. Read up on the English Civil Wars of
>> the 1600s. At least 200,000 people died. The Counter-reformation in
>> Continental Europe was even worse. We still have family stories about
>> that, my family was Lutheran almost from the beginning. The religious
>> wars were marked by slaughter of civilians as well as enemy soldiers. At
>> intervals in Austria "tolerance edicts" were promulgated, and when the
>> Protestants showed themselves, their children were taken away from them.
>> There were what amounted to pogroms against Protestants in some parts of
>> Central Europe. Etc.
>>
>> The Irish Troubles the 20th/21st centuries were (are) the last lashing
>> of that dragon's tail.
>>
>> HTH
>>
> Hate to point this out, but the 1600s WERE 4 centuries ago.  Grin.  And
> the IRA was a terrorist group, hardly an 'army'.  More like a group that
> liked to cause trouble, likely for lack of any other significant ability
> to do otherwise.
>
and was it an Army that flew those planes into the World Trades
Centre/Pentagon??

And what Countries Army is currently fighting against the Syrian and
Iraq (Countries) Armed Forces (as assisted by various "Western" and
other nations Armed Forces)?

--
Daniel

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Re: Reading fiction

David C. Kifer
In reply to this post by WaltS48
On 1/11/2015 8:24 AM, WaltS48 wrote:

>
>
> Anybody heard of the Crusades? According to this site there were seven of them.
>
> [Crusades Timeline](http://www.lordsandladies.org/crusades-timeline.htm)
>
> According to Wikipedia there were seven major and numerous minor ones intermittently over a 200 year
> period.
>
> [Crusades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades)

Dig a little deeper. The Crusades were a belated response to Muslim taking Jerusalem away from the
Christian Emperor Constantine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jerusalem_during_the_Middle_Ages

--
Dave
"Tam multi libri, tam breve tempus!"
(Et brevis pecunia.) [Et breve spatium.]
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Re: Reading fiction

David C. Kifer
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
On 1/10/2015 21:13 PM, Ron Hunter wrote:

> On 1/10/2015 7:04 PM, Ed Mullen wrote:
>>
>> Tolerance is, really, peace.
>>
>> Now!  Let's go blow up some Muslim terrorists!
>>
>> Sigh.
>>
>> Even tolerance has its limits.
>>
>>
> Indeed.  I honor all religions, and try to respect them, and the people who practice them, but when
> someone tells me that because I believe differently about religion, they are going to kill me, well,
> I take issue with that, and the religion that proposes it.  I just hope we can keep a lid on this
> until I am gone, because I think the next war will be a really nasty thing.


In the reported words of one survivor of the Holocaust, when asked what lesson he had taken from his
experience of the 1940s, "If someone tells you that he intends to kill you, believe him."
-- Eliot Cohen, "What's In A Name", _The Wall Street Journal_, November 20, 2001,
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=95001493


--
Dave
"Tam multi libri, tam breve tempus!"
(Et brevis pecunia.) [Et breve spatium.]
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