Re: complexity tax - Addendum

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Re: complexity tax - Addendum

ToolmakerSteve
I wrote:

> From my perspective, this is about:
> . Flash; Silverlight; Java (client side).
>
> Three major approaches requiring large plug-ins to provide a rich
> environment. Notably all three approaches have languages substantially
> beyond Javascript. As a toolmaker, I would love to see convergence between
> Javascript and Flash and a Silverlight language that was powerful enough
> to also use server side a la Java.
>
> Does such a language need to be as extensive as ES4? Probably not.
>
> Is this more urgent than the topics Douglas mentions? That seems worthy of
> more discussion.

I want to add that one factor is what different people/companies are
motivated to do. Since there is currently momentum to pin down an advanced
language, I figure it is worth not interfering with that momentum. Let the
current process go to completion, so that we have something specific to poke
at.

Given the [literally] global ramifications of adopting ES4, it might then
make sense to pause, rather than seeking a vote on adoption. Spend time with
ES4 implementations; grapple with security and other pressing concerns. Make
at least one straw proposal for deferring some features.

~TMSteve

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Re: complexity tax - Addendum

Ric Johnson
On 3/26/2008, "ToolmakerSteve98" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>I wrote:
>> Javascript and Flash and a Silverlight language that was powerful enough
>> to also use server side a la Java.
>>
>> Does such a language need to be as extensive as ES4? Probably not.

um... You mention the solution in your question: Silverlight.

IMHO, it is Microsoft attempt to allow C# in the browser, work like
flash, and you can write server side code.

Silverlight may not be as broad based as Javascript right now, but it
does have Microsoft behind it.

Ric
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Re: complexity tax - mobile devices - Microsoft + Adobe tools + future browsers

ToolmakerSteve
"Ric Johnson" wrote:

>>I wrote:
>>> Javascript and Flash and a Silverlight language that was powerful enough
>>> to also use server side a la Java.
>>>
>>> Does such a language need to be as extensive as ES4? Probably not.
>
>um... You mention the solution in your question: Silverlight.
>
>IMHO, it is Microsoft attempt to allow C# in the browser, work like
>flash, and you can write server side code.
>
>Silverlight may not be as broad based as Javascript right now, but it
>does have Microsoft behind it.

Exactly. And rather than continue the split between Microsoft and other
alternatives, I am hunting for common ground, at least at the language
level.

I currently intend to target Microsoft CLR-based mobile devices; i.e.
Silverlight. When I took a close look at Action Script 3 in Flash Player 9,
I realized that Flash finally had a language powerful enough to fit in with
my plans, as an alternate platform. This lead me to this proposed ES4 work.
I believe it would be a huge win for everyone (even Microsoft IMHO, though
that is not the conclusion that Microsoft members of this discussion have
reached), if these three important pillars all supported a common, powerful
language:
1) Silverlight and other .NET platforms, including server side;
2) Adobe's web design tools, currently dominant in the marketplace;
3) Browsers' client side language; e.g. Javascript "2".

I am putting together a toolset that bridges .NET & Silverlight development
tools with Adobe's tools. I've decided to do a proof-of-concept for a given
scope of language, specifically using type-inference technology in F# to
provide a statically-type-bound compilation of a subset of ES4. I hope to
demonstrate high performance and compactness when targeting CLR, both on
Silverlight, and on Windows Server running ASP.NET. And compatibility with
Flash 9, and the proposed ES4.

The goal is a total solution that builds on current and future work by both
Microsoft and Adobe, as well as possible future browsers, once someone makes
a Tamarin/ES4 plug-in for Firefox.

~TMSteve

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Re: complexity tax - mobile devices - Microsoft + Adobe tools + future browsers

David Teller-3
On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 14:56 -0700, ToolmakerSteve98 wrote:
> I am putting together a toolset that bridges .NET & Silverlight development
> tools with Adobe's tools. I've decided to do a proof-of-concept for a given
> scope of language, specifically using type-inference technology in F# to
> provide a statically-type-bound compilation of a subset of ES4.

Do I understand correctly that you're compiling your subset of ES4 to
F# ? Sounds interesting. Do you keep a blog on that ?

Cheers,
 David


--
David Teller
 Security of Distributed Systems
  http://www.univ-orleans.fr/lifo/Members/David.Teller
 Angry researcher: French Universities need reforms, but the LRU act
brings liquidations.

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