Re: Windows 8 Metro

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
60 messages Options
123
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Windows 8 Metro

Sailfish-2
My bloviated meandering follows what MCBastos graced us with on
9/28/2011 4:28 PM:

> Interviewed by CNN on 28/09/2011 13:40, Sailfish told the world:
>> My bloviated meandering follows what David Wilkinson graced us with on
>> 9/28/2011 5:35 AM:
>>> It seems that Windows 8 will have an entirely new mode of operation
>>> called Metro (alongside the traditional desktop). Although primarily
>>> targeted to tablets using touch, Metro will also be available using
>>> mouse/keyboard on regular desktops and laptops.
>>>
>>> Metro apps are sand-boxed and are written in a new runtime called WinRT,
>>> using C++, C#, VB.NET or Javascript.
>>>
>>> The developer preview already has a plugin-free Metro version of IE 10,
>>> and they seem to be working on Live Mail also.
>>>
>>> So where does this leave SeaMonkey/FireFox/Thunderbird? Is Mozilla just
>>> going to concede the Metro experience to Microsoft?
>>>
>> Unless Microsoft seriously changes their Win8 design from what I've seen
>> on the Dev release, I predict they will be as successful with it as they
>> were with Kin/Win Phone 7/Vista.
>>
>> I personally wouldn't worry about it until they produce something that
>> looks innovative and gives people a reason to consider it.
>>
>
> I think that's the wrong attitude to take...
>
> First, you have to take into account that the reason people rejected
> Vista was not design -- most people had no serious problems with the
> design. Even the annoying UAC prompts weren't the real problem. The
> problem was the horrid performance in 2006-era machines -- I remember
> seeing new computers sold with Vista and *512 Mb* of RAM, barely enough
> to boot it (in ten or fifteen minutes, that is). Windows 7 is not
> actually THAT much better resource-wise (it is a bit better, though),
> but by 2009, the standard computer was powerful enough to deal with it
> comfortably. The MS people are not that stupid; they will make sure this
> time around that Windows 8 is able to run adequately on available
> computers -- not that hard a task, considering that a dual-core, 4Gb RAM
> is a reasonable assumption now, and a quad-core one might be it in one
> year. And they are aiming for low-powered form-factors too, which should
> keep the kernel guys from going too wild with resource consumption --
> even if the "Windows 8 tablet" is a bust, this effort should keep the
> desktop version from growing too fat.
>
I disagree, somewhat. I'll grant you that part of the problem was
under-resourced machines but, even there, that was a Microsoft-inflicted
error. They knew of it yet still decided it was better for the bottom
line to allow the new bloated Vista to be installed on these machines.

I was part of the Vista RC1 testing community and my rig at the time was
more than powerful enough to handle its load but the problems associated
with UAC were legend and other features, even then. The new Explorer
search system was (and still is) a overly complex POS. So much so that,
even today, I use a 3rd party search program to reliably and quickly
find what I'm looking for. Mind you, this was already a couple of years
after it started initial beta testing. I exercised RC1 for several
months, diligently reporting problems and searching for ways around
them, mostly to no avail. After a few months, I ended testing it because
it was just too tedious to continue and politely informed them of my
itemized issues and my dismay of how something that had been in testing
this long could have so many obvious everyday usage problems associated
with it. I neglected to participate in the RC2 drop and, in the hope
that they finally fixed the problems, was an early adopter when it came
out. Imagine my disbelief when I discovered that all of the tedious
problems were still there. I finally bit the bullet and accepted that I
could no longer be productive and ended up disabling UAC altogether.
That, and with another Explorer search utility, allowed me to get along.

Now, I'm pretty savvy on Windows and know tips/tricks on how to get
around many of the new obstacles that Vista threw at me. Most aren't,
and I suspect it was that word-of-mouth that contributed heavily to its
low acceptance and horrid perception.

> Second, you may dislike it (and there's plenty to dislike), but Windows
> still dominates on desktop and notebook computers, by a very large
> margin. Computer makers are actually glad to see a new version of
> Windows -- particularly one like 8, which features very big a piece of
> hardware people don't have yet -- because it gives them something to
> sell: "New computer! With Touchscreen and Windows 8!" So, unless there
> is a very strong consumer resistance, they WILL bundle Windows 8 with
> new computers by default.
>
I'm not a Microsoft-hater. In fact, I pre-ordered Win7 and, while I
still believe it should have been a Vista SP maintenance release
instead, I'm quite pleased with it (I still rely on my handy 3rd party
search tool, though.) I also have Office 2010 and, after some getting
used to, have come to appreciate the ribbon toolbar styles. I'm one who
wants Microsoft to succeed, only because I enjoy new technology and a
competitive environment. Win8 desktop, at least at this time, is not a
step forward but a big step backwards. Even the "Metro" stuff is dated
and unimaginative from what I played with. Now, they have time to
correct this but I've lost all faith that they have the folks at the top
that can cause this to happen.

> So, by early 2013 there will be quite a lot of Windows 8 machines
> around. How many, it's hard to say. But many. And not having anything to
> offer to those people strikes me as a Very Bad Idea. Well, existing apps
> should work fine in Classic mode -- but not offering anything for Metro
> is likely to make the Mozilla stable of products look hopelessly dated.
> Macs are moving to touchscreen interface too; eventually, someone will
> add that to Linux. It's not just a Windows problem.
>
Firefox desktop will still work with Win8 desktop but I believe the OP
was more concerned about the WinPhone7/tablet "Metro" UI/UX. Unless
Microsoft can start capturing a meaningful market share with the
existing WinPhone7 (which even Ballmer admitted recently that acceptance
has been dismal) then there is no reason to expect this to change with
Win8, imo.

> The better question to ask is, "How viable is to adapt
> Firefox/Thunderbird/Seamonkey to Metro/Lion?" Perhaps starting from the
> existing UIs, designed for point-and-click WIMP interfaces, is the wrong
> approach. Oh, they will run fine in "Classic" mode, but the idea is
> having a version for the touchscreen interface. The work being done in
> the tablet version of Firefox might be illuminating -- it might be
> easier to use the Fennec tablet UI as a starting point for Windows
> Metro/Mac Lion than the existing WIMP UI.
>
Win8 is a closed system. Apple can get away with it because of their
ability to inspire with the hardware and software design. Android is
open and is now selling more smartphones/tablets than even Apple, let
alone WinPhone7. Why should Mozilla put anything more than a meager
effort into Win8?

Followup to mozilla.general.

--
Sailfish - Netscape Champion
Netscape/Mozilla Tips: http://www.ufaq.org/ , http://ilias.ca/
Rare Mozilla Stuff: https://www.projectit.com/
_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Windows 8 Metro

David Wilkinson-3
Sailfish wrote:
> Win8 is a closed system. Apple can get away with it because of their
> ability to inspire with the hardware and software design. Android is
> open and is now selling more smartphones/tablets than even Apple, let
> alone WinPhone7. Why should Mozilla put anything more than a meager
> effort into Win8?

Why is Win8 any more closed than any other version of Windows?

Actually, Microsoft is providing the advantage of a Windows runtime (WinRT) that
will run on both tablets and conventional computers. It's hard to believe that
WinRT will not become available for Windows phone development also. Unless
WinRT/Metro fails completely, this is a very big market that can be addressed by
a single WinRT version of the browser.

WinRT also has the advantage that it can be programmed directly in C++ (though
the interaction with the Metro UI requires an extended version of C++ called
C++/CX). Much better than using Objective C or Dalvik, IMHO.

But currently, the only Metro/WinRT browser is Internet Explorer 10. One
interesting feature of it is that it does not allow plug-ins, not even Silverlight.

--
David Wilkinson
_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Windows 8 Metro

Ron Hunter
On 9/30/2011 6:04 AM, David Wilkinson wrote:
> Sailfish wrote:
>> Win8 is a closed system. Apple can get away with it because of their
>> ability to inspire with the hardware and software design. Android is
>> open and is now selling more smartphones/tablets than even Apple, let
>> alone WinPhone7. Why should Mozilla put anything more than a meager
>> effort into Win8?
>
> Why is Win8 any more closed than any other version of Windows?
>

Well, it will have an apps store, and you will be prevented from
multi-boot installs.  How's that for a starter?

> Actually, Microsoft is providing the advantage of a Windows runtime
> (WinRT) that will run on both tablets and conventional computers. It's
> hard to believe that WinRT will not become available for Windows phone
> development also. Unless WinRT/Metro fails completely, this is a very
> big market that can be addressed by a single WinRT version of the browser.
>
> WinRT also has the advantage that it can be programmed directly in C++
> (though the interaction with the Metro UI requires an extended version
> of C++ called C++/CX). Much better than using Objective C or Dalvik, IMHO.
>
> But currently, the only Metro/WinRT browser is Internet Explorer 10. One
> interesting feature of it is that it does not allow plug-ins, not even
> Silverlight.
>

_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Windows 8 Metro

David Wilkinson-3
Ron Hunter wrote:
>> Why is Win8 any more closed than any other version of Windows?
>>
>
> Well, it will have an apps store, and you will be prevented from
> multi-boot installs. How's that for a starter?

I don't know if the app-store will be the only way to install Metro apps, but
doesn't the "open" Android have an App store also?

I am multi-booting Windows 8 with Windows 7 on my PC right now, so I'm not sure
what you mean by this. Not so easy to multi-boot an Android or IOS device, anyway.

I have mixed feelings about Metro myself, but I think that a common runtime and
user experience over the whole range of devices is an attractive concept, and
one that will give Microsoft an edge.

In any case, Microsoft is betting the farm on this concept, so it's very likely
to happen.

--
David Wilkinson
_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Windows 8 Metro

Jay Garcia
On 30.09.2011 10:28, David Wilkinson wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> Ron Hunter wrote:
>>> Why is Win8 any more closed than any other version of Windows?
>>>
>>
>> Well, it will have an apps store, and you will be prevented from
>> multi-boot installs. How's that for a starter?
>
> I don't know if the app-store will be the only way to install Metro
> apps, but doesn't the "open" Android have an App store also?
>
> I am multi-booting Windows 8 with Windows 7 on my PC right now, so I'm
> not sure what you mean by this. Not so easy to multi-boot an Android or
> IOS device, anyway.
>
> I have mixed feelings about Metro myself, but I think that a common
> runtime and user experience over the whole range of devices is an
> attractive concept, and one that will give Microsoft an edge.
>
> In any case, Microsoft is betting the farm on this concept, so it's very
> likely to happen.
>

cross posting to .seamonkey is not favorable, please keep the discussion
here, thanks.


--
*Jay Garcia - Netscape Champion*
www.ufaq.org
Netscape - Firefox - SeaMonkey - Thunderbird
_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Windows 8 Metro

Sailfish-2
In reply to this post by David Wilkinson-3
My bloviated meandering follows what David Wilkinson graced us with on
9/30/2011 4:04 AM:
> Sailfish wrote:
>> Win8 is a closed system. Apple can get away with it because of their
>> ability to inspire with the hardware and software design. Android is
>> open and is now selling more smartphones/tablets than even Apple, let
>> alone WinPhone7. Why should Mozilla put anything more than a meager
>> effort into Win8?
>
> Why is Win8 any more closed than any other version of Windows?
>
I was speaking of mainly the "Metro" (smartphone/tablet) aspect of Win8.
That won't be as "open" as the Android.

> Actually, Microsoft is providing the advantage of a Windows runtime
> (WinRT) that will run on both tablets and conventional computers. It's
> hard to believe that WinRT will not become available for Windows phone
> development also. Unless WinRT/Metro fails completely, this is a very
> big market that can be addressed by a single WinRT version of the browser.
>
Okay, but a runtime is not an open system in the sense that anyone can
fork it and customize it for their own needs like the Android.

> WinRT also has the advantage that it can be programmed directly in C++
> (though the interaction with the Metro UI requires an extended version
> of C++ called C++/CX). Much better than using Objective C or Dalvik, IMHO.
>
How is that any different than what both Apple and Google offer with
their "native" mode programming model?

> But currently, the only Metro/WinRT browser is Internet Explorer 10. One
> interesting feature of it is that it does not allow plug-ins, not even
> Silverlight.
>
Okay, I'm not sure at this point whether that's a good idea or not?
Perhaps for the "Metro" end it's okay but it seems like it will be a
major regression issue for the desktop mode.

Again, from what I've seen of the UI/UX via the Development release is
that as a "Metro" platform, it's rather boring compared to the
competition but as a desktop platform, it's that plus a major "dumbing
down" from what exists today on Win7.

--
Sailfish - Netscape Champion
Netscape/Mozilla Tips: http://www.ufaq.org/ , http://ilias.ca/
Rare Mozilla Stuff: https://www.projectit.com/
_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Windows 8 Metro

Robert Kaiser
In reply to this post by David Wilkinson-3
David Wilkinson schrieb:
> Ron Hunter wrote:
>>> Why is Win8 any more closed than any other version of Windows?
>>>
>>
>> Well, it will have an apps store, and you will be prevented from
>> multi-boot installs. How's that for a starter?
>
> I don't know if the app-store will be the only way to install Metro
> apps, but doesn't the "open" Android have an App store also?

Who made you think that Android would be anything similar to "open"?

And yes, there are APKs and alternative app stores for Android, just as
Windows 8 will be able to run "classic" Windows applications as well,
both of which doesn't make them "open" anyhow.

Robert Kaiser

--
Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never
meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible
arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the
time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :)
_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Windows 8 Metro

David Wilkinson-3
In reply to this post by Sailfish-2
Sailfish wrote:
>> Why is Win8 any more closed than any other version of Windows?
>>
> I was speaking of mainly the "Metro" (smartphone/tablet) aspect of Win8.
> That won't be as "open" as the Android.

None of Windows is open in that sense. My point was that Mozilla has put a lot
of effort into providing a version for traditional (closed) Windows, so why
would they not consider putting effort into the new (also closed) Windows Metro?

>> Actually, Microsoft is providing the advantage of a Windows runtime (WinRT)
 >> that will run on both tablets and conventional computers. It's hard to believe
 >> that WinRT will not become available for Windows phone development also. Unless
>> WinRT/Metro fails completely, this is a very big market that can be addressed by
 >> a single WinRT version of the browser.
>>
> Okay, but a runtime is not an open system in the sense that anyone can
> fork it and customize it for their own needs like the Android.

I didn't say it was open; I said that a uniform development environment and UI
experience across all "Windows" devices was a potentially huge market

>> WinRT also has the advantage that it can be programmed directly in C++
>> (though the interaction with the Metro UI requires an extended version
>> of C++ called C++/CX). Much better than using Objective C or Dalvik,
>> IMHO.
>>
> How is that any different than what both Apple and Google offer with
> their "native" mode programming model?

Actually, I am not that familiar with these development systems, but I had
thought that at least the UI of iPhone apps had to be written in Objective C.

>> But currently, the only Metro/WinRT browser is Internet Explorer 10.
>> One interesting feature of it is that it does not allow plug-ins, not
>> even Silverlight.
>>
> Okay, I'm not sure at this point whether that's a good idea or not?
> Perhaps for the "Metro" end it's okay but it seems like it will be a
> major regression issue for the desktop mode.

The current Windows 8 has two IE browsers: the traditional desktop one, and the
no-plugin one for Metro.

> Again, from what I've seen of the UI/UX via the Development release is
> that as a "Metro" platform, it's rather boring compared to the
> competition but as a desktop platform, it's that plus a major "dumbing
> down" from what exists today on Win7.

Some people like Metro itself, and others don't. But anyway,
traditional Windows is still there, with the single exception that the Start
menu has been replaced by the Metro Start screen. This has proved extremely
unpopular with many people, and I think the classic Start menu has to replaced,
at least as an option.

I personally like the idea of dual UI's, one the familiar Windows, and the other
the same as the UI on tablets or phones. But I think they should be separate as
much as possible.

--
David Wilkinson
_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Windows 8 Metro

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by David Wilkinson-3
On 9/30/2011 10:28 AM, David Wilkinson wrote:

> Ron Hunter wrote:
>>> Why is Win8 any more closed than any other version of Windows?
>>>
>>
>> Well, it will have an apps store, and you will be prevented from
>> multi-boot installs. How's that for a starter?
>
> I don't know if the app-store will be the only way to install Metro
> apps, but doesn't the "open" Android have an App store also?
>

Remains to be seen, but NOT ALL Android phones are open.


> I am multi-booting Windows 8 with Windows 7 on my PC right now, so I'm
> not sure what you mean by this. Not so easy to multi-boot an Android or
> IOS device, anyway.
>
> I have mixed feelings about Metro myself, but I think that a common
> runtime and user experience over the whole range of devices is an
> attractive concept, and one that will give Microsoft an edge.
>

Well, from my point of view, I will stick with Windows7 until I am
forced to replace hardware, which will NOT have Windows 8 on it.  I will
not be shoe-horned into a screen presentation that doesn't accommodate
itself to MY preferences, and needs.  The ugly, inflexible, and annoying
'tiles' are an abomination.


> In any case, Microsoft is betting the farm on this concept, so it's very
> likely to happen.
>

The farm will sell cheap as a result to this misguided excursion into
child-friendly computing.
_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Windows 8 Metro

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by David Wilkinson-3
On 9/30/2011 4:08 PM, David Wilkinson wrote:

> Sailfish wrote:
>>> Why is Win8 any more closed than any other version of Windows?
>>>
>> I was speaking of mainly the "Metro" (smartphone/tablet) aspect of Win8.
>> That won't be as "open" as the Android.
>
> None of Windows is open in that sense. My point was that Mozilla has put
> a lot of effort into providing a version for traditional (closed)
> Windows, so why would they not consider putting effort into the new
> (also closed) Windows Metro?
>
>>> Actually, Microsoft is providing the advantage of a Windows runtime
>>> (WinRT)
>  >> that will run on both tablets and conventional computers. It's hard
> to believe
>  >> that WinRT will not become available for Windows phone development
> also. Unless
>>> WinRT/Metro fails completely, this is a very big market that can be
>>> addressed by
>  >> a single WinRT version of the browser.
>>>
>> Okay, but a runtime is not an open system in the sense that anyone can
>> fork it and customize it for their own needs like the Android.
>
> I didn't say it was open; I said that a uniform development environment
> and UI experience across all "Windows" devices was a potentially huge
> market
>
>>> WinRT also has the advantage that it can be programmed directly in C++
>>> (though the interaction with the Metro UI requires an extended version
>>> of C++ called C++/CX). Much better than using Objective C or Dalvik,
>>> IMHO.
>>>
>> How is that any different than what both Apple and Google offer with
>> their "native" mode programming model?
>
> Actually, I am not that familiar with these development systems, but I
> had thought that at least the UI of iPhone apps had to be written in
> Objective C.
>
>>> But currently, the only Metro/WinRT browser is Internet Explorer 10.
>>> One interesting feature of it is that it does not allow plug-ins, not
>>> even Silverlight.
>>>
>> Okay, I'm not sure at this point whether that's a good idea or not?
>> Perhaps for the "Metro" end it's okay but it seems like it will be a
>> major regression issue for the desktop mode.
>
> The current Windows 8 has two IE browsers: the traditional desktop one,
> and the no-plugin one for Metro.
>
>> Again, from what I've seen of the UI/UX via the Development release is
>> that as a "Metro" platform, it's rather boring compared to the
>> competition but as a desktop platform, it's that plus a major "dumbing
>> down" from what exists today on Win7.
>
> Some people like Metro itself, and others don't. But anyway,
> traditional Windows is still there, with the single exception that the
> Start menu has been replaced by the Metro Start screen. This has proved
> extremely unpopular with many people, and I think the classic Start menu
> has to replaced, at least as an option.
>
> I personally like the idea of dual UI's, one the familiar Windows, and
> the other the same as the UI on tablets or phones. But I think they
> should be separate as much as possible.
>
I have no objection to alternatives, but what I have read so far
indicates that much will be lost to users of the Desktop part of Win8.
Like the ability to tile several working windows, and a logically
arranged Start menu.  After so many versions of Windows, Win7 finally
got the Start menu RIGHT, now they want to toss it out the window? (pun
intended).

_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Windows 8 Metro

Sailfish-2
In reply to this post by David Wilkinson-3
My bloviated meandering follows what David Wilkinson graced us with on
9/30/2011 2:08 PM:
> Sailfish wrote:
[snip /]
>> I was speaking of mainly the "Metro" (smartphone/tablet) aspect of Win8.
>> That won't be as "open" as the Android.
>
> None of Windows is open in that sense. My point was that Mozilla has put
> a lot of effort into providing a version for traditional (closed)
> Windows, so why would they not consider putting effort into the new
> (also closed) Windows Metro?
>
They have put a lot of effort into Windows desktop and no effort (that
I'm aware of) for any Microsoft smartphones/tablets (Kin, WinPhone 7,
&c). Mainly, because they have not achieve any market share worth the
effort, is my guess. Win8 desktop mode will continue to get attention,
Win8 "Metro" (as in smartphones/tablets) will still need to prove itself
worthy of the effort.

[snip /]

>> Okay, but a runtime is not an open system in the sense that anyone can
>> fork it and customize it for their own needs like the Android.
>
> I didn't say it was open; I said that a uniform development environment
> and UI experience across all "Windows" devices was a potentially huge
> market
>
If Win8 desktop ends up being so dumbed down, as the current Development
release I've tested, then the migration to it may be even worse than
what happened with migration from XP. If that's the case, then that
"potential" really just relies on how well Metro is accepted in the
smartphone/tablet arena which, repeating, has been fairly dismal so far.

[snip /]

>> How is that any different than what both Apple and Google offer with
>> their "native" mode programming model?
>
> Actually, I am not that familiar with these development systems, but I
> had thought that at least the UI of iPhone apps had to be written in
> Objective C.
>
One "can" write an app using Javascript, HTML5 and CSS but in order to
use things like GPS, accelerometer, camera, &c effectively, the app must
using the devices' APIs; whether it be with Objective C or whatever. The
API coding and submission process is much easier on the Android than the
iPhone; however, the iPhone continues to enjoy a huge advantage of
available apps vs. the Android. The reason is that developers first want
to spend their app design resources where they will get the great ROI
which, today is iPhone, then Android and Win7 Phone isn't even in the
top 5, as I understand it.

[snip /]

>> Okay, I'm not sure at this point whether that's a good idea or not?
>> Perhaps for the "Metro" end it's okay but it seems like it will be a
>> major regression issue for the desktop mode.
>
> The current Windows 8 has two IE browsers: the traditional desktop one,
> and the no-plugin one for Metro.
>
Okay, so I can see Mozilla spending the effort for the desktop browser
but not being an early-adopter of the Metro one. Again, Metro will need
to prove itself a worthy platform marketshare-wise, at least that what I
would wait to see before investing limited resources to it. Now, if
Microsoft tossed them some money to do it, that's a different story.
Money can solve a lot of trepidation issues.

>> Again, from what I've seen of the UI/UX via the Development release is
>> that as a "Metro" platform, it's rather boring compared to the
>> competition but as a desktop platform, it's that plus a major "dumbing
>> down" from what exists today on Win7.
>
> Some people like Metro itself, and others don't. But anyway,
> traditional Windows is still there, with the single exception that the
> Start menu has been replaced by the Metro Start screen. This has proved
> extremely unpopular with many people, and I think the classic Start menu
> has to replaced, at least as an option.
>
> I personally like the idea of dual UI's, one the familiar Windows, and
> the other the same as the UI on tablets or phones. But I think they
> should be separate as much as possible.
>
Yeah, I still consider desktop/laptop's being work platforms and
smartphone/tablets being light communication/light gaming/entertainment
platforms. HP has (had?) a desktop system called Smart Touch that I've
played around with a bit. It had a keyboard (and optional mouse) but
also a touchscreen. It was okay for light web activity but the screen
constantly needed cleaning due to crusty finger deposit accumulation. I
can see a touchscreen for fast food checkout commerce but not for
everyday work. The smartphones (and to some degree, tablets) are a
different paradigm in that one can easily clean of the smudges by wiping
the screen with one's shirt sleeve :)

--
Sailfish - Netscape Champion
Netscape/Mozilla Tips: http://www.ufaq.org/ , http://ilias.ca/
Rare Mozilla Stuff: https://www.projectit.com/
_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Windows 8 Metro

Ron Hunter
On 9/30/2011 5:56 PM, Sailfish wrote:

> My bloviated meandering follows what David Wilkinson graced us with on
> 9/30/2011 2:08 PM:
>> Sailfish wrote:
> [snip /]
>>> I was speaking of mainly the "Metro" (smartphone/tablet) aspect of Win8.
>>> That won't be as "open" as the Android.
>>
>> None of Windows is open in that sense. My point was that Mozilla has
>> put a lot of effort into providing a version for traditional (closed)
>> Windows, so why would they not consider putting effort into the new
>> (also closed) Windows Metro?
>>
> They have put a lot of effort into Windows desktop and no effort (that
> I'm aware of) for any Microsoft smartphones/tablets (Kin, WinPhone 7,
> &c). Mainly, because they have not achieve any market share worth the
> effort, is my guess. Win8 desktop mode will continue to get attention,
> Win8 "Metro" (as in smartphones/tablets) will still need to prove itself
> worthy of the effort.
>
> [snip /]
>
>>> Okay, but a runtime is not an open system in the sense that anyone can
>>> fork it and customize it for their own needs like the Android.
>>
>> I didn't say it was open; I said that a uniform development
>> environment and UI experience across all "Windows" devices was a
>> potentially huge market
>>
> If Win8 desktop ends up being so dumbed down, as the current Development
> release I've tested, then the migration to it may be even worse than
> what happened with migration from XP. If that's the case, then that
> "potential" really just relies on how well Metro is accepted in the
> smartphone/tablet arena which, repeating, has been fairly dismal so far.
>
> [snip /]
>

Yes, in spite of generally good reviews of how the phones actually work
in use.  Perhaps it is because others feel as I do about the 'tile'
interface.  Looks like a child's toy.  REALLY UGLY interface.
And, yes, that matters, at least to ME.


>>> How is that any different than what both Apple and Google offer with
>>> their "native" mode programming model?
>>
>> Actually, I am not that familiar with these development systems, but I
>> had thought that at least the UI of iPhone apps had to be written in
>> Objective C.
>>
> One "can" write an app using Javascript, HTML5 and CSS but in order to
> use things like GPS, accelerometer, camera, &c effectively, the app must
> using the devices' APIs; whether it be with Objective C or whatever. The
> API coding and submission process is much easier on the Android than the
> iPhone; however, the iPhone continues to enjoy a huge advantage of
> available apps vs. the Android. The reason is that developers first want
> to spend their app design resources where they will get the great ROI
> which, today is iPhone, then Android and Win7 Phone isn't even in the
> top 5, as I understand it.
>
> [snip /]
>

????  You need to check stats.  Android has more than 50% of the
smartphone market.  Selling through two service providers, with a locked
in phone, and a locked in application sourcing, vs selling through MANY
providers and many sources for apps has pushed the Android phones to the
front.  It appears that the iPhone 5 will be available in the US through
the 'big four' providers, which will help, but right now, Apple is in
retreat.

>>> Okay, I'm not sure at this point whether that's a good idea or not?
>>> Perhaps for the "Metro" end it's okay but it seems like it will be a
>>> major regression issue for the desktop mode.
>>
>> The current Windows 8 has two IE browsers: the traditional desktop
>> one, and the no-plugin one for Metro.
>>
> Okay, so I can see Mozilla spending the effort for the desktop browser
> but not being an early-adopter of the Metro one. Again, Metro will need
> to prove itself a worthy platform marketshare-wise, at least that what I
> would wait to see before investing limited resources to it. Now, if
> Microsoft tossed them some money to do it, that's a different story.
> Money can solve a lot of trepidation issues.
>
>>> Again, from what I've seen of the UI/UX via the Development release is
>>> that as a "Metro" platform, it's rather boring compared to the
>>> competition but as a desktop platform, it's that plus a major "dumbing
>>> down" from what exists today on Win7.
>>
>> Some people like Metro itself, and others don't. But anyway,
>> traditional Windows is still there, with the single exception that the
>> Start menu has been replaced by the Metro Start screen. This has
>> proved extremely unpopular with many people, and I think the classic
>> Start menu has to replaced, at least as an option.
>>
>> I personally like the idea of dual UI's, one the familiar Windows, and
>> the other the same as the UI on tablets or phones. But I think they
>> should be separate as much as possible.
>>
> Yeah, I still consider desktop/laptop's being work platforms and
> smartphone/tablets being light communication/light gaming/entertainment
> platforms. HP has (had?) a desktop system called Smart Touch that I've
> played around with a bit. It had a keyboard (and optional mouse) but
> also a touchscreen. It was okay for light web activity but the screen
> constantly needed cleaning due to crusty finger deposit accumulation. I
> can see a touchscreen for fast food checkout commerce but not for
> everyday work. The smartphones (and to some degree, tablets) are a
> different paradigm in that one can easily clean of the smudges by wiping
> the screen with one's shirt sleeve :)
>

_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Windows 8 Metro

Sailfish-2
My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
9/30/2011 6:28 PM:
> On 9/30/2011 5:56 PM, Sailfish wrote:

>> One "can" write an app using Javascript, HTML5 and CSS but in order to
>> use things like GPS, accelerometer, camera, &c effectively, the app must
>> using the devices' APIs; whether it be with Objective C or whatever. The
>> API coding and submission process is much easier on the Android than the
>> iPhone; however, the iPhone continues to enjoy a huge advantage of
>> available apps vs. the Android. The reason is that developers first want
>> to spend their app design resources where they will get the great ROI
>> which, today is iPhone, then Android and Win7 Phone isn't even in the
>> top 5, as I understand it.
>>
>> [snip /]
>>
>
> ????  You need to check stats.  Android has more than 50% of the
> smartphone market.  Selling through two service providers, with a locked
> in phone, and a locked in application sourcing, vs selling through MANY
> providers and many sources for apps has pushed the Android phones to the
> front.  It appears that the iPhone 5 will be available in the US through
> the 'big four' providers, which will help, but right now, Apple is in
> retreat.
>
I wasn't referring to the hardware sales but rather the software (apps)
sales. The last I read, iPhone continues to enjoy a huge lead in that area.

--
Sailfish - Netscape Champion
Netscape/Mozilla Tips: http://www.ufaq.org/ , http://ilias.ca/
Rare Mozilla Stuff: https://www.projectit.com/
_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Windows 8 Metro

PhillipJones
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
Ron Hunter wrote:

> ???? You need to check stats. Android has more than 50% of the
> smartphone market. Selling through two service providers, with a locked
> in phone, and a locked in application sourcing, vs selling through MANY
> providers and many sources for apps has pushed the Android phones to the
> front. It appears that the iPhone 5 will be available in the US through
> the 'big four' providers, which will help, but right now, Apple is in
> retreat.

Not Hardly. Although Android has 50% of the Market That spread over a
dozen or more manufactures of Android Phones.

While The iPhones 50% is Spread over one Manufacture. So the  even if it
were 40% Apple and 60% Android Apple still comes out on top. Android is
just an Operating system just iOS When you go by units sold, Apple is
still the winner.

Although iPhone is a good chunk of Apple's Profits. The "main" Money
Maker for Apple now is the iPad.

--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.        "If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.net        mailto:[hidden email]
_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Windows 8 Metro

David Wilkinson-3
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
Ron Hunter wrote:
> I have no objection to alternatives, but what I have read so far
> indicates that much will be lost to users of the Desktop part of Win8.
> Like the ability to tile several working windows, and a logically
> arranged Start menu. After so many versions of Windows, Win7 finally got
> the Start menu RIGHT, now they want to toss it out the window? (pun
> intended).

The only thing missing from the traditional desktop experience is the Start
Menu. The task bar is still there, and windows can be tiled in the normal fashion.

Only Metro apps are forced to be full screen (or "half screen").

--
David Wilkinson
_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Windows 8 Metro

Sailfish-2
My bloviated meandering follows what David Wilkinson graced us with on
9/30/2011 8:56 PM:

> Ron Hunter wrote:
>> I have no objection to alternatives, but what I have read so far
>> indicates that much will be lost to users of the Desktop part of Win8.
>> Like the ability to tile several working windows, and a logically
>> arranged Start menu. After so many versions of Windows, Win7 finally got
>> the Start menu RIGHT, now they want to toss it out the window? (pun
>> intended).
>
> The only thing missing from the traditional desktop experience is the
> Start Menu. The task bar is still there, and windows can be tiled in the
> normal fashion.
>
> Only Metro apps are forced to be full screen (or "half screen").
>
Not so. Compare Task Managers and others apps. They are a shell of their
former selves. Even the taskbar and tray were clunky.

--
Sailfish - Netscape Champion
Netscape/Mozilla Tips: http://www.ufaq.org/ , http://ilias.ca/
Rare Mozilla Stuff: https://www.projectit.com/
_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Windows 8 Metro

Philip Chee
In reply to this post by Robert Kaiser
On Fri, 30 Sep 2011 12:58:41 -0700, Andrew DeFaria wrote:

>   On 9/30/2011 12:10 PM, Robert Kaiser wrote:
>> David Wilkinson schrieb:
>>> Ron Hunter wrote:
>>>>> Why is Win8 any more closed than any other version of Windows?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, it will have an apps store, and you will be prevented from multi-boot
>>>> installs. How's that for a starter?
>>> I don't know if the app-store will be the only way to install Metro apps, but
>>> doesn't the "open" Android have an App store also?
>> Who made you think that Android would be anything similar to "open"?
> I can get the source code for Android. Can I get the source code for Windows?
> Thought so...
> --
> Andrew DeFaria <http://defaria.com>
> Did anyone see my lost carrier?

You can't get the source code of their development trunk. All you get is
released versions Google tosses over the wall of the corporate firewall.

I'm not sure but ISTR that there are still some binary blobs from Google
that they don't provide source code for.

Phil

--
Philip Chee <[hidden email]>, <[hidden email]>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Windows 8 Metro

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by Sailfish-2
On 9/30/2011 10:15 PM, Sailfish wrote:

> My bloviated meandering follows what Ron Hunter graced us with on
> 9/30/2011 6:28 PM:
>> On 9/30/2011 5:56 PM, Sailfish wrote:
>
>>> One "can" write an app using Javascript, HTML5 and CSS but in order to
>>> use things like GPS, accelerometer, camera, &c effectively, the app must
>>> using the devices' APIs; whether it be with Objective C or whatever. The
>>> API coding and submission process is much easier on the Android than the
>>> iPhone; however, the iPhone continues to enjoy a huge advantage of
>>> available apps vs. the Android. The reason is that developers first want
>>> to spend their app design resources where they will get the great ROI
>>> which, today is iPhone, then Android and Win7 Phone isn't even in the
>>> top 5, as I understand it.
>>>
>>> [snip /]
>>>
>>
>> ???? You need to check stats. Android has more than 50% of the
>> smartphone market. Selling through two service providers, with a
>> locked in phone, and a locked in application sourcing, vs selling
>> through MANY providers and many sources for apps has pushed the
>> Android phones to the front. It appears that the iPhone 5 will be
>> available in the US through the 'big four' providers, which will help,
>> but right now, Apple is in retreat.
>>
> I wasn't referring to the hardware sales but rather the software (apps)
> sales. The last I read, iPhone continues to enjoy a huge lead in that area.
>
More apps probably doesn't mean anything to the average user.  For my
purposes, any game apps are just ignored, and Apple allows very few apps
I would characterize as 'utilities', which is one area Android leads.

_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Windows 8 Metro

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by PhillipJones
On 9/30/2011 10:51 PM, PhillipJones wrote:

> Ron Hunter wrote:
>
>> ???? You need to check stats. Android has more than 50% of the
>> smartphone market. Selling through two service providers, with a locked
>> in phone, and a locked in application sourcing, vs selling through MANY
>> providers and many sources for apps has pushed the Android phones to the
>> front. It appears that the iPhone 5 will be available in the US through
>> the 'big four' providers, which will help, but right now, Apple is in
>> retreat.
>
> Not Hardly. Although Android has 50% of the Market That spread over a
> dozen or more manufactures of Android Phones.
>
> While The iPhones 50% is Spread over one Manufacture. So the even if it
> were 40% Apple and 60% Android Apple still comes out on top. Android is
> just an Operating system just iOS When you go by units sold, Apple is
> still the winner.
>
> Although iPhone is a good chunk of Apple's Profits. The "main" Money
> Maker for Apple now is the iPad.
>
Yeah, only for a while.  With Amazon's recent release, the pricing model
is going to change a bit.  Can't wait to see prices for Christmas.

_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Windows 8 Metro

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by David Wilkinson-3
On 9/30/2011 10:56 PM, David Wilkinson wrote:

> Ron Hunter wrote:
>> I have no objection to alternatives, but what I have read so far
>> indicates that much will be lost to users of the Desktop part of Win8.
>> Like the ability to tile several working windows, and a logically
>> arranged Start menu. After so many versions of Windows, Win7 finally got
>> the Start menu RIGHT, now they want to toss it out the window? (pun
>> intended).
>
> The only thing missing from the traditional desktop experience is the
> Start Menu. The task bar is still there, and windows can be tiled in the
> normal fashion.
>
> Only Metro apps are forced to be full screen (or "half screen").
>
I don't buy a new OS so I can NOT use the main features of it, but
rather try to re-institute the old features.  Better to just stick with
the old OS.  I suspect than Win7 might be hanging on as long as I am
alive unless MS pulls their corporate head out of their rectal orifice.

_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
123