Re: WAYYYYY OT -- Re: HTML or Plain Text - no problem for me

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Re: WAYYYYY OT -- Re: HTML or Plain Text - no problem for me

Jay Garcia
On 20.12.2007 10:30, The Real Bev wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> Follow-up to m.g...
>
> squaredancer wrote:
>
>  > Sean Bean whined about something that's been around for
>  > longer than he has:
>
>>>> "Arguing on the internet is like running a race in the Special Olympics...
>>>
>>> THAT should be removed from your list.  It's offensive.
>
> To whom?  The retarded persons reading this list?  The "offensive"
> comment is a basic truth expressed cleverly.  How would YOU say it?  And
> is your way clearer or funnier?
>
>> hmmmm - maybe he competes, and *is* retarded??
>
> Did you hear about the head of the local (somewhere in Flyover Country)
> branch of the NAACP complaining that the performance at the
> Ind^H^H^HNative American school of Agatha Christie's play 'Ten Little
> Indians' was insensitive to "diversity"[1] because its original name was
> 'Ten Little N-words".  I'm pretty sure he used 'N-words', but I wouldn't
> swear to it.
>
> People worry too damn much about trivia.  If I can tell and laugh at
> blonde and woman jokes the retarded can damn well not bitch about jokes
> of which they're the butt.  Given that there are way more women
> ["blondes" are assumed to be women, Cato Kaelin being the most famous
> exception) than retards, the cumulative discrimination we've faced by
> far outweighs that faced by the intellectually-challenged, most of whom
> don't know about it anyway and who probably have people who are actually
> paid to take care of them.
>
> Stick your cheesy compassion where the sun don't shine, it's not needed
> around here.
>
> [1] Not a lot of 'diversity' in Indian Country.  Is the NAACP expanding
> its horizons or did they just kick him out of places where he could
> ctually do some harm?
>

I believe it was the word "retarded" that was considered offensive and I
agree 100%. "Retarded" is out, "Challenged" is in. My wife and I have
been volunteering at Children's Hospital here in New Orleans for over 30
years now and before we were married I was a volunteer for 20 years
before that, going on 50 years now. The kids were once mentally
"retarded", now they are mentally "challenged". Times and labels change.

--
Jay Garcia - Netscape Champion
Marketing,Staff and Forums Consultant
Netscape Communications Corporation
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Re: WAYYYYY OT -- Re: HTML or Plain Text - no problem for me

Terry R.
The date and time is 12/20/2007 8:30 AM, and on a whim, The Real Bev
pounded out on the keyboard:

> Follow-up to m.g...
>
> squaredancer wrote:
>
>  > Sean Bean whined about something that's been around for
>  > longer than he has:
>
>>>> "Arguing on the internet is like running a race in the Special Olympics...
>>> THAT should be removed from your list.  It's offensive.
>
> To whom?  The retarded persons reading this list?  The "offensive"
> comment is a basic truth expressed cleverly.  How would YOU say it?  And
> is your way clearer or funnier?
>

Well, you snipped out the offensive part, so now it's out of context.
And maybe you should get out more.  That word isn't used to describe
those who are physically challenged any longer.  Of course it could be
used to describe your reaction.

>> hmmmm - maybe he competes, and *is* retarded??
>
> Did you hear about the head of the local (somewhere in Flyover Country)
> branch of the NAACP complaining that the performance at the
> Ind^H^H^HNative American school of Agatha Christie's play 'Ten Little
> Indians' was insensitive to "diversity"[1] because its original name was
> 'Ten Little N-words".  I'm pretty sure he used 'N-words', but I wouldn't
> swear to it.
>
> People worry too damn much about trivia.  If I can tell and laugh at
> blonde and woman jokes the retarded can damn well not bitch about jokes
> of which they're the butt.  Given that there are way more women
> ["blondes" are assumed to be women, Cato Kaelin being the most famous
> exception) than retards, the cumulative discrimination we've faced by
> far outweighs that faced by the intellectually-challenged, most of whom
> don't know about it anyway and who probably have people who are actually
> paid to take care of them.
>

Poor Bev.  Well you can do something about being blonde (unless it's
more than skin deep).  They can't. Your rambling just shows your
complete lack of understanding.

> Stick your cheesy compassion where the sun don't shine, it's not needed
> around here.
>

Classy Bev.  Maybe shave your armpits and get back with us when you can
ACT like a human, much less a woman.

> [1] Not a lot of 'diversity' in Indian Country.  Is the NAACP expanding
> its horizons or did they just kick him out of places where he could
> ctually do some harm?
>


--
Terry R.
Anti-spam measures are included in my email address.
Delete NOSPAM from the email address after clicking Reply.
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Re: WAYYYYY OT -- Re: HTML or Plain Text - no problem for me

Leonidas Jones-2
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
The Real Bev wrote:
> Follow-up to m.g...
>
> squaredancer wrote:
/snip/
>
> Stick your cheesy compassion where the sun don't shine, it's not needed
> around here.
>
> [1] Not a lot of 'diversity' in Indian Country.  Is the NAACP expanding
> its horizons or did they just kick him out of places where he could
> ctually do some harm?
>

Bev, you are so far out of line here that it hard to even describe it!

If I didn't know you over the years, I would have killfiled you without
even thinking.

I think you owe Terry a serious apology. If not, and if, upon reflection
these are your honest beliefs, well I will killfile you.

Lee
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Re: WAYYYYY OT -- Re: HTML or Plain Text - no problem for me

The Real Bev
Leonidas Jones wrote:

> The Real Bev wrote:
>> Follow-up to m.g...
>>
>> squaredancer wrote:
> /snip/
>>
>> Stick your cheesy compassion where the sun don't shine, it's not needed
>> around here.
>>
>> [1] Not a lot of 'diversity' in Indian Country.  Is the NAACP expanding
>> its horizons or did they just kick him out of places where he could
>> ctually do some harm?

Addendum:  The city next door is proud of its HS team, the Arcadia
Apaches.  Some non-Native-Americans protested that name the team after
the Apaches was demeaning to the Apaches.  The school said that they had
chosen the name out of respect and that they had even contacted one of
the Apache tribes for an opinion, which was favorable.

> Bev, you are so far out of line here that it hard to even describe it!
>
> If I didn't know you over the years, I would have killfiled you without
> even thinking.
>
> I think you owe Terry a serious apology. If not, and if, upon reflection
> these are your honest beliefs, well I will killfile you.

Was Terry the one who said it?  Since you request it I will apologize
for offending him.

BUT... far too many of us are offended by words, but not the concepts
they represent.  How many times do we change what we call people because
they have somehow decided that the standard term is offensive?  In my
youth, 'negro' and 'colored' were perfectly respectable words that you
used if for some reason you needed to mention race.  I don't know about
the usage of those words in the southern US, but in SoCal they were no
more pejorative than 'caucasian' or 'white'.

At some point it was determined that those words were demeaning in some
way, and other words must be substituted -- which words were in turn
determined to be insulting...  Lather, rinse, repeat.

"Retarded" was similarly non-pejoratively descriptive.  The retarded
were further broken down into three groups determined by the degree of
retardation, and I'm sorry to say that I'm sufficiently retarded that I
can't remember the order.  Those words are still in common use, just not
for the mentally challenged.  They seemed useful at the time.

Why is "challenged" less insulting than "retarded"?  We all know what
"challenged" means and we make jokes about that --
"computer-challenged", "driving-challenged" etc.  How is that less
insulting than "retarded"?

When my daughter's kids were little she decreed that the word "stupid"
should never be said around them.  A few years later she herself was
ranting -- in the presence of the children -- about the stupid people
driving, selling and teaching in her kids' schools.  I said nothing.  We
grow, we learn.

When people whine some feel sympathetic and others feel just the
opposite.  When confronted with people who seem to demand more than
their share of whatever is available, expecting that others will simply
give in and do what they want, my personal inclination is to, at best,
say "Pull up your socks and get on with it".

The seasonal obsession with the evil of 'Merry Christmas' is another
exhibition of a ridiculous level of sensitivity.  I regard all religion
as silly, but I wish my friends Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, or
Happy Buddha's Birthday (I'm sorry, I don't know the proper greeting for
Ramadan, but "Happy Ramadan" with an embarrassed smile seemed to not
offend my Muslim neighbors and I asked if they could eat some of my
mother's cookies after sundown.  I'm listening to Gregorian chants even
as we speak.

I would not call a mentally-challenged person "retarded" to his face.
Indeed, a few years ago a mentally challenged guy stopped to help me tie
a small discarded tree to my bicycle.  He devised a better way of doing
it than I had.  At one point he said that some people didn't think he
was very smart.  I pointed out to him that that was kind of silly
because he'd just solved a problem better than I had and that those
people were probably mistaken.

It does gall me when people exhibit knee-jerk reactions to words.  There
are way too many people who find it profitable to be offended by the
actions of others -- the ultimate expression of this being lawsuits
against people with deep pockets.  We didn't build a country by getting
our feelings hurt when people said mean things to us.

No, insulting people is not patriotic -- but neither is taking excessive
offense from things that are not in themselves harmful.   I respect you,
Lee, and I am perfectly willing to apologize to you and I will be sorry
if you killfile me -- but that doesn't mean that I think any better of
people who look for ways to be offended.

Happy holidays, whatever they might be.

--
Cheers, Bev (Happy Linux User #85683, Slackware 11.0)
[] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] []
If voting could really change things, it would be illegal.
                    --Revolution Books, New York, New York
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Re: WAYYYYY OT -- Re: HTML or Plain Text - no problem for me

Leonidas Jones-2
The Real Bev wrote:
> Leonidas Jones wrote:
>
>> The Real Bev wrote:
>>> Follow-up to m.g...
>>>
>>> squaredancer wrote:
>> /snip/

>
> Happy holidays, whatever they might be.
>

Okay, the followup, snipping, and all the other stuff required here
makes it very hard to follow.  I spent a good while tracking this down,
your reply was a direct reply to Terry. It was uncalled for.

There are two issues here.  One, was the tag line is question offensive?
  Terry, Jay and I all found it to be so.

"Arguing on the internet is like running a race in the Special Olympics...
          ...even if you win, you're still retarded."

Well, if you have:

A. A child who is mentally disabled.

B. Close friends with children who are mentally disabled.

C. Work closely with children who are mentally disabled.

You darn well better believe its offensive.

I fall into B and C.  I have good friends with children with Downes
Syndrome and severe autism. I have seen their suffering, and have their
joy when their children reach beyond their supposed limits. I have seen
the joy occasioned by the Special Olympics. Darn sure I found that tag
line offensive!

Would you call a child with Downes Syndrome a "Mongoloid Idiot"?  Yet
that was once the "correct" term. Would you call a person of color a
"darky"?  That was once the "correct", even the "polite" term.

However, I am not one for full on "political correctness".  While I
disagree with much of what you say, I can always to agree to disagree,
as long as the discussion is held in a cordial and respectful manner.  I
don't think that happened here. This is the second issue.

Terry was offended by the tag line, and expressed it, as was his right.
He stated that he found the tag line offensive and thought it should be
removed from the Tagzilla rotation of the guy who posted it.  It was a
one sentence comment.

You then launched into full out attack mode. It was uncalled for. There
was a lot in your post that was uncalled for, but I point to this:

"Stick your cheesy compassion where the sun don't shine, it's not needed
around here. "

That was in direct response to Terry.  It is rude, discourteous, and
about as far from an intelligent discussion of an issue as I can think of.

If you can't do better then a one line apology followed by paragraph
after of paragraph of self defense, well ....

I would suggest a simple apology, nothing else.  If you then want to
enter into an intelligent and thoughtful discussion of the issue, I am here.

Lee
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Re: WAYYYYY OT -- Re: HTML or Plain Text - no problem for me

squaredancer
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
On 20.12.2007 17:30, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  The Real Bev
to generate the following:? :

> Follow-up to m.g...
>
> squaredancer wrote:
>
>  > Sean Bean whined about something that's been around for
>  > longer than he has:
>
>  
>>>> "Arguing on the internet is like running a race in the Special Olympics...
>>>>        
>>> THAT should be removed from your list.  It's offensive.
>>>      
>
> To whom?  The retarded persons reading this list?  The "offensive"
> comment is a basic truth expressed cleverly.  How would YOU say it?  And
> is your way clearer or funnier?
>
>  
>> hmmmm - maybe he competes, and *is* retarded??
>>    
>
> Did you hear about the head of the local (somewhere in Flyover Country)
> branch of the NAACP complaining that the performance at the
> Ind^H^H^HNative American school of Agatha Christie's play 'Ten Little
> Indians' was insensitive to "diversity"[1] because its original name was
> 'Ten Little N-words".  I'm pretty sure he used 'N-words', but I wouldn't
> swear to it.
>
>
>  

yepp - I bet those poor *old* NUNS are not amused!
> Stick your cheesy compassion where the sun don't shine, it's not needed
> around here.
>
>  


where I used to live, I saw a guy wheeling his chair every day. come
rain come sun into town and back.
One day I saw him in town, outside a corner shop, with a tray across his
arm-grips, polishing jewlery and selling metall polish. I whent to him
and told him how I admired his courage and incentive to do this each day
(he had to wheel over quite a high hill) and then said "you know, I'm
glad that there are disabled, such as you are"
Hmmmmm - first reaction was (to be expected) annoyance, but then he sort
of settled back and asked "Now, why is that - disablements like this are
nothing to be jealous of?"

My answer was to show the thoughts I had at that time.....
"Seeing people like you reminds me just how lucky I am"

reg

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Re: WAYYYYY OT -- Re: HTML or Plain Text - no problem for me

squaredancer
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
On 21.12.2007 01:46, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Jay Garcia to
generate the following:? :

> On 20.12.2007 10:30, The Real Bev wrote:
>
>  --- Original Message ---
>
>  
>> Follow-up to m.g...
>>
>> squaredancer wrote:
>>
>>  > Sean Bean whined about something that's been around for
>>  > longer than he has:
>>
>>    
>>>>> "Arguing on the internet is like running a race in the Special Olympics...
>>>>>          
>>>> THAT should be removed from your list.  It's offensive.
>>>>        
>> To whom?  The retarded persons reading this list?  The "offensive"
>> comment is a basic truth expressed cleverly.  How would YOU say it?  And
>> is your way clearer or funnier?
>>
>>    
>>> hmmmm - maybe he competes, and *is* retarded??
>>>      
>> Did you hear about the head of the local (somewhere in Flyover Country)
>> branch of the NAACP complaining that the performance at the
>> Ind^H^H^HNative American school of Agatha Christie's play 'Ten Little
>> Indians' was insensitive to "diversity"[1] because its original name was
>> 'Ten Little N-words".  I'm pretty sure he used 'N-words', but I wouldn't
>> swear to it.
>>
>> People worry too damn much about trivia.  If I can tell and laugh at
>> blonde and woman jokes the retarded can damn well not bitch about jokes
>> of which they're the butt.  Given that there are way more women
>> ["blondes" are assumed to be women, Cato Kaelin being the most famous
>> exception) than retards, the cumulative discrimination we've faced by
>> far outweighs that faced by the intellectually-challenged, most of whom
>> don't know about it anyway and who probably have people who are actually
>> paid to take care of them.
>>
>> Stick your cheesy compassion where the sun don't shine, it's not needed
>> around here.
>>
>> [1] Not a lot of 'diversity' in Indian Country.  Is the NAACP expanding
>> its horizons or did they just kick him out of places where he could
>> ctually do some harm?
>>
>>    
>
> I believe it was the word "retarded" that was considered offensive and I
> agree 100%. "Retarded" is out, "Challenged" is in. My wife and I have
> been volunteering at Children's Hospital here in New Orleans for over 30
> years now and before we were married I was a volunteer for 20 years
> before that, going on 50 years now. The kids were once mentally
> "retarded", now they are mentally "challenged". Times and labels change.
>
>  

between times (at least in GB) they were mentally handicapped - then
just handicapped.
I'm not sure that calling them something "softer" is easier on them - a
lot of them don't even know how different their life is... but the
"harder" tiles emphasise the condition and make "normal" people more
aware of the social (and medical) problems!

Me? first I was physically disabled, then handicapped. Now I'm simply
disabled (to a certain percentage) - which does nothing to seperate me
from any other kind of disablement - and that, in the employment
environment can be a vital factor.
I wonder if I should find that discriminating :-(

reg
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Re: WAYYYYY OT -- Re: HTML or Plain Text - no problem for me

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by The Real Bev
On 21.12.2007 00:05, The Real Bev wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> No, insulting people is not patriotic -- but neither is taking excessive
> offense from things that are not in themselves harmful.   I respect you,
> Lee, and I am perfectly willing to apologize to you and I will be sorry
> if you killfile me -- but that doesn't mean that I think any better of
> people who look for ways to be offended.
>
> Happy holidays, whatever they might be.

IMHO, after having worked with the "challenged" kids, etc. that
"retarded" is a final and concrete classification. To say that someone
is "retarded" puts the nail on it. If, by contrast, you're "challenged"
doesn't necessarily mean that you are "retarded", it simply means that
you have a difficulty in some specific area. My wife, for instance, has
a problem following driving directions .. she's challenged but
definitely NOT "retarded". Would you classify Stephen Hawkings as
"retarded"? I don't but rather maybe "mobility challenged".

--
Jay Garcia - Netscape Champion
Marketing,Staff and Forums Consultant
Netscape Communications Corporation
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Re: WAYYYYY OT -- Re: HTML or Plain Text - no problem for me

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by squaredancer
On 21.12.2007 03:56, squaredancer wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> On 21.12.2007 01:46, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Jay Garcia to
> generate the following:? :
>> On 20.12.2007 10:30, The Real Bev wrote:
>>
>>  --- Original Message ---
>>
>>  
>>> Follow-up to m.g...
>>>
>>> squaredancer wrote:
>>>
>>>  > Sean Bean whined about something that's been around for
>>>  > longer than he has:
>>>
>>>    
>>>>>> "Arguing on the internet is like running a race in the Special Olympics...
>>>>>>          
>>>>> THAT should be removed from your list.  It's offensive.
>>>>>        
>>> To whom?  The retarded persons reading this list?  The "offensive"
>>> comment is a basic truth expressed cleverly.  How would YOU say it?  And
>>> is your way clearer or funnier?
>>>
>>>    
>>>> hmmmm - maybe he competes, and *is* retarded??
>>>>      
>>> Did you hear about the head of the local (somewhere in Flyover Country)
>>> branch of the NAACP complaining that the performance at the
>>> Ind^H^H^HNative American school of Agatha Christie's play 'Ten Little
>>> Indians' was insensitive to "diversity"[1] because its original name was
>>> 'Ten Little N-words".  I'm pretty sure he used 'N-words', but I wouldn't
>>> swear to it.
>>>
>>> People worry too damn much about trivia.  If I can tell and laugh at
>>> blonde and woman jokes the retarded can damn well not bitch about jokes
>>> of which they're the butt.  Given that there are way more women
>>> ["blondes" are assumed to be women, Cato Kaelin being the most famous
>>> exception) than retards, the cumulative discrimination we've faced by
>>> far outweighs that faced by the intellectually-challenged, most of whom
>>> don't know about it anyway and who probably have people who are actually
>>> paid to take care of them.
>>>
>>> Stick your cheesy compassion where the sun don't shine, it's not needed
>>> around here.
>>>
>>> [1] Not a lot of 'diversity' in Indian Country.  Is the NAACP expanding
>>> its horizons or did they just kick him out of places where he could
>>> ctually do some harm?
>>>
>>>    
>>
>> I believe it was the word "retarded" that was considered offensive and I
>> agree 100%. "Retarded" is out, "Challenged" is in. My wife and I have
>> been volunteering at Children's Hospital here in New Orleans for over 30
>> years now and before we were married I was a volunteer for 20 years
>> before that, going on 50 years now. The kids were once mentally
>> "retarded", now they are mentally "challenged". Times and labels change.
>>
>>  
>
> between times (at least in GB) they were mentally handicapped - then
> just handicapped.
> I'm not sure that calling them something "softer" is easier on them - a
> lot of them don't even know how different their life is... but the
> "harder" tiles emphasise the condition and make "normal" people more
> aware of the social (and medical) problems!
>
> Me? first I was physically disabled, then handicapped. Now I'm simply
> disabled (to a certain percentage) - which does nothing to seperate me
> from any other kind of disablement - and that, in the employment
> environment can be a vital factor.
> I wonder if I should find that discriminating :-(
>
> reg

Well look at it this way. You see that same fella polishing jewelry in a
wheel chair. What if that same fella was sitting in a regular chair sans
wheel chair, would you say he was handicapped, retarded or challenged?
No, of course not. But since he was in a wheel chair, the automatic
assumption is that he's <insert word>. Ok, so now you see him in the
wheel chair, what do you label him without knowing the exact nature of
his disability? To simply deduce that he's "retarded" is a misguided
assumption nowadays. He may be quite bright with an IQ of 160+ and at
the same time "mobility challenged" for whatever reason, maybe he was
wounded in Viet Nam, etc., but definitely NOT "retarded".

--
Jay Garcia - Netscape Champion
Marketing,Staff and Forums Consultant
Netscape Communications Corporation
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Re: WAYYYYY OT -- Re: HTML or Plain Text - no problem for me

The Real Bev
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
Jay Garcia wrote:

> On 21.12.2007 00:05, The Real Bev wrote:
>
>> No, insulting people is not patriotic -- but neither is taking excessive
>> offense from things that are not in themselves harmful.   I respect you,
>> Lee, and I am perfectly willing to apologize to you and I will be sorry
>> if you killfile me -- but that doesn't mean that I think any better of
>> people who look for ways to be offended.
>>
>> Happy holidays, whatever they might be.
>
> IMHO, after having worked with the "challenged" kids, etc. that
> "retarded" is a final and concrete classification. To say that someone
> is "retarded" puts the nail on it.

You can fix ignorance and maybe even stupidity, but I think that genuine
retardation pretty much DOES have a nail in it.  Not that they can't
improve their situations, or that they can't learn, but just that there
is indeed a limit to the possibilities available to them, and that limit
is lower than the limit applied to persons of 'average' and 'above
average' intelligence.

> If, by contrast, you're "challenged"
> doesn't necessarily mean that you are "retarded", it simply means that
> you have a difficulty in some specific area. My wife, for instance, has
> a problem following driving directions .. she's challenged but
> definitely NOT "retarded". Would you classify Stephen Hawkings as
> "retarded"? I don't but rather maybe "mobility challenged".

Hawking singular, and I've seen him in person.  He's more than
mobility-challenged, but he's got way more brain-power than most of us.
   He's also got a sense of humor, which many of us lack.

You can be 'challenged' in a lot of ways, but as far as I know
'retarded' refers only to mental disabilities sufficiently severe that
they require special treatment of one sort or another.  The assumption,
I believe, is that the retarded/challenged person's mental age is far
below his chronological age, although that doesn't really work after a
while.

What bothers me is the political-correctness of the whole thing.  Nobody
has problems any more, they have issues.  They're not disabled, they're
differently-abled. They're undocumented immigrants, not wetbacks.
Earlier, kids were juvenile delinquents rather than hoodlums.  God knows
what they are now (mainstream pre-adults?), but they're WAY better
armed.  They used to be bums or hoboes, now they're just homeless.  They
used to be insane, now they're just members of a different (perhaps
sanity-challenged?) -challenged group.  Where did this fascination with
NOT calling a spade a spade come from?  Is there some special value in
creating euphemisms?  Cui bono?

Lawyers, mostly.

I'm sorry that people are offended by perfectly ordinary words used in
perfectly ordinary contexts.  What I'm sorry about is that people no
longer seem to be tough enough to overcome or even accept the "issues"
that cause them problems.  "Hey, I have an issue, somebody owes me
something.  Fix it NOW and whatever you do don't make me do anything
about it myself or feel bad about it."

This is another of those discussions that lead nowhere and were the
cause of the original sig.  Accordingly, I apologize to everyone I have
offended and withdraw from the competition.  Someone else can have the
last and definitive word.

Talk among yourselves...

--
Cheers, Bev (Happy Linux User #85683, Slackware 11.0)
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
When cryptography is outlawed, only outlaws will
qwertzuio asdfghjk pyxcvbnml      -- M. O'Dorney
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Re: WAYYYYY OT -- Re: HTML or Plain Text - no problem for me

Jay Garcia
On 21.12.2007 16:27, The Real Bev wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> This is another of those discussions that lead nowhere and were the
> cause of the original sig.  Accordingly, I apologize to everyone I have
> offended and withdraw from the competition.  Someone else can have the
> last and definitive word.
>
> Talk among yourselves...

Retarded is a mis-applied term most often and that is what people are
upset about and hence the squawk about the tagline.

My son graduated with a 3.8 from LSU in a double major, an IQ of 160+,
member of MENSA ... but ... suffers from ADD and takes heavy doses of
Ritalin. Is he "retarded" even by definition?

--
Jay Garcia - Netscape Champion
Marketing,Staff and Forums Consultant
Netscape Communications Corporation
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Re: WAYYYYY OT -- Re: HTML or Plain Text - no problem for me

Irwin Greenwald-4
  On 12/21/2007 Jay Garcia said
> Retarded is a mis-applied term most often and that is what people are
> upset about and hence the squawk about the tagline.
>
> My son graduated with a 3.8 from LSU in a double major, an IQ of 160+,
> member of MENSA ... but ... suffers from ADD and takes heavy doses of
> Ritalin. Is he "retarded" even by definition?

Of course your son is not retarded, but that doesn't mean that *nobody*
is retarded.  And I believe that was Bev's point: why do we insist on
the euphemisms like "mentally challenged"?

--
Irwin

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Re: WAYYYYY OT -- Re: HTML or Plain Text - no problem for me

Terry R.
The date and time was 12/21/2007 3:28 PM, and on a whim, Irwin Greenwald
pounded out on the keyboard:

>   On 12/21/2007 Jay Garcia said
>> Retarded is a mis-applied term most often and that is what people are
>> upset about and hence the squawk about the tagline.
>>
>> My son graduated with a 3.8 from LSU in a double major, an IQ of 160+,
>> member of MENSA ... but ... suffers from ADD and takes heavy doses of
>> Ritalin. Is he "retarded" even by definition?
>
> Of course your son is not retarded, but that doesn't mean that *nobody*
> is retarded.  And I believe that was Bev's point: why do we insist on
> the euphemisms like "mentally challenged"?
>

Why could anyone be considered that?  Are we not created equal?  Is one
human any less of a human than another?  It really could only be used to
make someone feel superior to someone else.  When I was a child, I used
the term, because I did try to build myself up, and using it was a way
to put someone down.  But I don't see that it has any purpose in
reference to human life any longer.

Bev was off the wall.  And to write a BUT BUT BUT letter and give an
apology at the end is basically saying she's not sorry.

--
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Re: WAYYYYY OT -- Re: HTML or Plain Text - no problem for me

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by Irwin Greenwald-4
On 21.12.2007 17:28, Irwin Greenwald wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

>   On 12/21/2007 Jay Garcia said
>> Retarded is a mis-applied term most often and that is what people are
>> upset about and hence the squawk about the tagline.
>>
>> My son graduated with a 3.8 from LSU in a double major, an IQ of 160+,
>> member of MENSA ... but ... suffers from ADD and takes heavy doses of
>> Ritalin. Is he "retarded" even by definition?
>
> Of course your son is not retarded, but that doesn't mean that *nobody*
> is retarded.  And I believe that was Bev's point: why do we insist on
> the euphemisms like "mentally challenged"?
>

We insist on the euphemisms in order to accurately characterize the
person who is the target. My son is synaptically challenged, not
retarded. :-)

--
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Netscape Communications Corporation
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Re: WAYYYYY OT -- Re: HTML or Plain Text - no problem for me

Irwin Greenwald-4
On 12/21/2007 4:10 PM, Jay Garcia wrote:

> On 21.12.2007 17:28, Irwin Greenwald wrote:
>
>  --- Original Message ---
>
>>   On 12/21/2007 Jay Garcia said
>>> Retarded is a mis-applied term most often and that is what people are
>>> upset about and hence the squawk about the tagline.
>>>
>>> My son graduated with a 3.8 from LSU in a double major, an IQ of 160+,
>>> member of MENSA ... but ... suffers from ADD and takes heavy doses of
>>> Ritalin. Is he "retarded" even by definition?
>> Of course your son is not retarded, but that doesn't mean that *nobody*
>> is retarded.  And I believe that was Bev's point: why do we insist on
>> the euphemisms like "mentally challenged"?
>>
>
> We insist on the euphemisms in order to accurately characterize the
> person who is the target. My son is synaptically challenged, not
> retarded. :-)
>
And my cousin IRA was a mongoloid who was definitely mentally retarded.
And that term was used by his parents as well as everyone else in the
family.  And there was no shame involved!

--
Irwin

Please do not use my email address to make requests for help.
Knowledge Base: http://kb.mozillazine.org/Main_Page
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Re: WAYYYYY OT -- Re: HTML or Plain Text - no problem for me

Jay Garcia
On 21.12.2007 18:41, Irwin Greenwald wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> On 12/21/2007 4:10 PM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>> On 21.12.2007 17:28, Irwin Greenwald wrote:
>>
>>  --- Original Message ---
>>
>>>   On 12/21/2007 Jay Garcia said
>>>> Retarded is a mis-applied term most often and that is what people are
>>>> upset about and hence the squawk about the tagline.
>>>>
>>>> My son graduated with a 3.8 from LSU in a double major, an IQ of 160+,
>>>> member of MENSA ... but ... suffers from ADD and takes heavy doses of
>>>> Ritalin. Is he "retarded" even by definition?
>>> Of course your son is not retarded, but that doesn't mean that *nobody*
>>> is retarded.  And I believe that was Bev's point: why do we insist on
>>> the euphemisms like "mentally challenged"?
>>>
>>
>> We insist on the euphemisms in order to accurately characterize the
>> person who is the target. My son is synaptically challenged, not
>> retarded. :-)
>>
> And my cousin IRA was a mongoloid who was definitely mentally retarded.
> And that term was used by his parents as well as everyone else in the
> family.  And there was no shame involved!
>

I dealt with those types at Children's Hospital for decades as a
volunteer. It was truly a blessing when the stigmatic label was changed
to suffering from Downes Syndrome. Mongoloid is just sooo Dark Ages on
retrospect. Times change ... for the better IMHO.

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Re: WAYYYYY OT -- Re: HTML or Plain Text - no problem for me

Leonidas Jones-2
In reply to this post by Irwin Greenwald-4
Irwin Greenwald wrote:

> On 12/21/2007 4:10 PM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>> On 21.12.2007 17:28, Irwin Greenwald wrote:
>>
>>  --- Original Message ---
>>
>>>   On 12/21/2007 Jay Garcia said
>>>> Retarded is a mis-applied term most often and that is what people are
>>>> upset about and hence the squawk about the tagline.
>>>>
>>>> My son graduated with a 3.8 from LSU in a double major, an IQ of 160+,
>>>> member of MENSA ... but ... suffers from ADD and takes heavy doses of
>>>> Ritalin. Is he "retarded" even by definition?
>>> Of course your son is not retarded, but that doesn't mean that
>>> *nobody* is retarded.  And I believe that was Bev's point: why do we
>>> insist on the euphemisms like "mentally challenged"?
>>>
>>
>> We insist on the euphemisms in order to accurately characterize the
>> person who is the target. My son is synaptically challenged, not
>> retarded. :-)
>>
> And my cousin IRA was a mongoloid who was definitely mentally retarded.
> And that term was used by his parents as well as everyone else in the
> family.  And there was no shame involved!
>

Irwin, with all due respect, and I hope you know that I respect you
greatly, this was a very, very different time.

We can argue that this is simply a question of semantics.  Well,
semantics is the study of what words mean, and it is a fluid study. What
words mean at the current time is a very important thing.

To use the term "Mongoloid" now would be horrific. Try using that to my
friends with Downes Syndrome children, they would look at you with total
disbelief.There was a time that the "correct" term was, honestly,
"Mongoloid Idiot"  Could you really, possibly justify that today?

The other I quoted was for persons of color.  There was a time, I
realize a long time ago, that the "correct" and even "polite" terms was
"darkies".  Could we possibly justify that today?  More time has passed,
but the semantics of the word has very clearly changed.

The terms we use do change, and they change because the meanings, often
insidiously, change with time.

Can it go too far, too soon?  Sure it can.  But I think you will find
that "retarded", along with its clearly offensive close relative
"retard", is no longer acceptable.

The ARC:

http://www.thearc.org

the national association for the advocacy of mentally disabled citizens,
was once the Association for Retarded Children, then the Association for
Retarded Citizens.  Now it is simply the ARC, no acronym involved. They
are too involved to drop the name, but the word retarded simply cannot
be accepted.

I remember even ten years ago, teaching music, and the concept of
ritardando, meaning slowing down of tempo. This is abbreviated in
notation as either rit., or ritard. We had to be very careful to avoid
the, even then, clearly offensive term of retard. We avoided that, not
out of political correctness, but because it was clearly used as an
offensive epithet.

I am glad to note that todays' children, at least in my district, don't
even make the association. While I have my own problems with blanket
political correctness, this is a very, very good thing. Semantics have
changed, and, here, for the better.

Lee
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Re: WAYYYYY OT -- Re: HTML or Plain Text - no problem for me

Irwin Greenwald-4
On 12/21/2007 7:34 PM, Leonidas Jones wrote:

> Irwin Greenwald wrote:
>> On 12/21/2007 4:10 PM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>> On 21.12.2007 17:28, Irwin Greenwald wrote:
>>>
>>>  --- Original Message ---
>>>
>>>>   On 12/21/2007 Jay Garcia said
>>>>> Retarded is a mis-applied term most often and that is what people are
>>>>> upset about and hence the squawk about the tagline.
>>>>>
>>>>> My son graduated with a 3.8 from LSU in a double major, an IQ of 160+,
>>>>> member of MENSA ... but ... suffers from ADD and takes heavy doses of
>>>>> Ritalin. Is he "retarded" even by definition?
>>>> Of course your son is not retarded, but that doesn't mean that
>>>> *nobody* is retarded.  And I believe that was Bev's point: why do we
>>>> insist on the euphemisms like "mentally challenged"?
>>>>
>>>
>>> We insist on the euphemisms in order to accurately characterize the
>>> person who is the target. My son is synaptically challenged, not
>>> retarded. :-)
>>>
>> And my cousin IRA was a mongoloid who was definitely mentally
>> retarded. And that term was used by his parents as well as everyone
>> else in the family.  And there was no shame involved!
>>
>
> Irwin, with all due respect, and I hope you know that I respect you
> greatly, this was a very, very different time.
>
> We can argue that this is simply a question of semantics.  Well,
> semantics is the study of what words mean, and it is a fluid study. What
> words mean at the current time is a very important thing.
>
> To use the term "Mongoloid" now would be horrific. Try using that to my
> friends with Downes Syndrome children, they would look at you with total
> disbelief.There was a time that the "correct" term was, honestly,
> "Mongoloid Idiot"  Could you really, possibly justify that today?
>
> The other I quoted was for persons of color.  There was a time, I
> realize a long time ago, that the "correct" and even "polite" terms was
> "darkies".  Could we possibly justify that today?  More time has passed,
> but the semantics of the word has very clearly changed.
>
> The terms we use do change, and they change because the meanings, often
> insidiously, change with time.
>
> Can it go too far, too soon?  Sure it can.  But I think you will find
> that "retarded", along with its clearly offensive close relative
> "retard", is no longer acceptable.
>
> The ARC:
>
> http://www.thearc.org
>
> the national association for the advocacy of mentally disabled citizens,
> was once the Association for Retarded Children, then the Association for
> Retarded Citizens.  Now it is simply the ARC, no acronym involved. They
> are too involved to drop the name, but the word retarded simply cannot
> be accepted.
>
> I remember even ten years ago, teaching music, and the concept of
> ritardando, meaning slowing down of tempo. This is abbreviated in
> notation as either rit., or ritard. We had to be very careful to avoid
> the, even then, clearly offensive term of retard. We avoided that, not
> out of political correctness, but because it was clearly used as an
> offensive epithet.
>
> I am glad to note that todays' children, at least in my district, don't
> even make the association. While I have my own problems with blanket
> political correctness, this is a very, very good thing. Semantics have
> changed, and, here, for the better.
>
> Lee

Of course it was a different time, and things do change, but
"acceptable" is in the eye of the beholder. IMHO "political correctness"
has gone too far.  I think it's silly that many department stores do not
have holiday displays or play holiday music.

And why did we have to change "manic depressive" to "bipolar"?  The
former conveys a good description of the ailment to the layman; the
latter tells us little.  "Mentally challenged" is a wide open term;
"slow" or "retarded" are pretty specific.

But I have to yield to the "group think";  1984 gets closer every day!

--
Irwin

Please do not use my email address to make requests for help.
Knowledge Base: http://kb.mozillazine.org/Main_Page
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Re: WAYYYYY OT -- Re: HTML or Plain Text - no problem for me

PhillipJones
In reply to this post by Irwin Greenwald-4
Irwin Greenwald wrote:

> On 12/21/2007 4:10 PM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>> On 21.12.2007 17:28, Irwin Greenwald wrote:
>>
>>  --- Original Message ---
>>
>>>   On 12/21/2007 Jay Garcia said
>>>> Retarded is a mis-applied term most often and that is what people are
>>>> upset about and hence the squawk about the tagline.
>>>>
>>>> My son graduated with a 3.8 from LSU in a double major, an IQ of 160+,
>>>> member of MENSA ... but ... suffers from ADD and takes heavy doses of
>>>> Ritalin. Is he "retarded" even by definition?
>>> Of course your son is not retarded, but that doesn't mean that
>>> *nobody* is retarded.  And I believe that was Bev's point: why do we
>>> insist on the euphemisms like "mentally challenged"?
>>>
>>
>> We insist on the euphemisms in order to accurately characterize the
>> person who is the target. My son is synaptically challenged, not
>> retarded. :-)
>>
> And my cousin IRA was a mongoloid who was definitely mentally retarded.
> And that term was used by his parents as well as everyone else in the
> family.  And there was no shame involved!
>
I had an uncle on my dad's side of the family that was a Mongoloid as
well and my dad and all his brother s and system called Uncle Raymond
"Retarded". That is what they were called before the more appropriate
Mentally handicapped term was coined.

And the person that had a son with ADD  simply has a for of mental
Disability. which has nothing to do with intelligence. Its just a
disability.

I worked for a school system as an Electronics Service Tech. and we had
one school in which all Children with disabilities went to until they
were of the age to go to high school.

They were all called Children with disabilities, That had everything
from  MS, Cystic Fibrosis, Addison Disease, ADD you name it they had it.

I always had a soft spot in my heart for Special Ed Teachers, Theirs
were far tougher jobs. Because all the lessons learned during an entire
year could be lost in 3 weeks out in the summer. It was like starting
over from th very start all over again. Most all even the ones with MS,
CF and such had low retention skills.

--
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If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!            mailto:[hidden email]
                              http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
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Re: WAYYYYY OT -- Re: HTML or Plain Text - no problem for me

PhillipJones
In reply to this post by Irwin Greenwald-4
Irwin Greenwald wrote:

> On 12/21/2007 7:34 PM, Leonidas Jones wrote:
>> Irwin Greenwald wrote:
>>> On 12/21/2007 4:10 PM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>> On 21.12.2007 17:28, Irwin Greenwald wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  --- Original Message ---
>>>>
>>>>>   On 12/21/2007 Jay Garcia said
>>>>>> Retarded is a mis-applied term most often and that is what people are
>>>>>> upset about and hence the squawk about the tagline.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My son graduated with a 3.8 from LSU in a double major, an IQ of
>>>>>> 160+,
>>>>>> member of MENSA ... but ... suffers from ADD and takes heavy doses of
>>>>>> Ritalin. Is he "retarded" even by definition?
>>>>> Of course your son is not retarded, but that doesn't mean that
>>>>> *nobody* is retarded.  And I believe that was Bev's point: why do
>>>>> we insist on the euphemisms like "mentally challenged"?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We insist on the euphemisms in order to accurately characterize the
>>>> person who is the target. My son is synaptically challenged, not
>>>> retarded. :-)
>>>>
>>> And my cousin IRA was a mongoloid who was definitely mentally
>>> retarded. And that term was used by his parents as well as everyone
>>> else in the family.  And there was no shame involved!
>>>
>>
>> Irwin, with all due respect, and I hope you know that I respect you
>> greatly, this was a very, very different time.
>>
>> We can argue that this is simply a question of semantics.  Well,
>> semantics is the study of what words mean, and it is a fluid study.
>> What words mean at the current time is a very important thing.
>>
>> To use the term "Mongoloid" now would be horrific. Try using that to
>> my friends with Downes Syndrome children, they would look at you with
>> total disbelief.There was a time that the "correct" term was,
>> honestly, "Mongoloid Idiot"  Could you really, possibly justify that
>> today?
>>
>> The other I quoted was for persons of color.  There was a time, I
>> realize a long time ago, that the "correct" and even "polite" terms
>> was "darkies".  Could we possibly justify that today?  More time has
>> passed, but the semantics of the word has very clearly changed.
>>
>> The terms we use do change, and they change because the meanings,
>> often insidiously, change with time.
>>
>> Can it go too far, too soon?  Sure it can.  But I think you will find
>> that "retarded", along with its clearly offensive close relative
>> "retard", is no longer acceptable.
>>
>> The ARC:
>>
>> http://www.thearc.org
>>
>> the national association for the advocacy of mentally disabled
>> citizens, was once the Association for Retarded Children, then the
>> Association for Retarded Citizens.  Now it is simply the ARC, no
>> acronym involved. They are too involved to drop the name, but the word
>> retarded simply cannot be accepted.
>>
>> I remember even ten years ago, teaching music, and the concept of
>> ritardando, meaning slowing down of tempo. This is abbreviated in
>> notation as either rit., or ritard. We had to be very careful to avoid
>> the, even then, clearly offensive term of retard. We avoided that, not
>> out of political correctness, but because it was clearly used as an
>> offensive epithet.
>>
>> I am glad to note that todays' children, at least in my district,
>> don't even make the association. While I have my own problems with
>> blanket political correctness, this is a very, very good thing.
>> Semantics have changed, and, here, for the better.
>>
>> Lee
>
> Of course it was a different time, and things do change, but
> "acceptable" is in the eye of the beholder. IMHO "political correctness"
> has gone too far.  I think it's silly that many department stores do not
> have holiday displays or play holiday music.
>
> And why did we have to change "manic depressive" to "bipolar"?  The
> former conveys a good description of the ailment to the layman; the
> latter tells us little.  "Mentally challenged" is a wide open term;
> "slow" or "retarded" are pretty specific.
>
> But I have to yield to the "group think";  1984 gets closer every day!
>

Actually Bipolar is just as accurate. it means more than one pole or
polar opposites , either way it describes a persons whose mood swings to
extremely high to extremely low. Their Highs are way to high, and their
lows are way to low.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!            mailto:[hidden email]
                              http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
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