Re: Proposed changes to the support newsgroups/mailing lists

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Re: Proposed changes to the support newsgroups/mailing lists

Frank-32
On 2/3/2011 12:34 PM, Chris Ilias wrote:

> PREFACE: I'm setting replies to this post to be posted in
> mozilla.general. If you don't want to subscribe to mozilla.general, you
> send your response to my email address and I'll post it there.
>
>
> _The problem_
> Spam in the newsgroups.
>
>
> _How is it happening_
> These newsgroups are mirrored between lists.mozilla.org,
> news.mozilla.org, and Google Groups. All the spam is coming via Google
> Groups, and Google is doing nothing to stop it.
>
>
> _What are the proposed changes to fix it in other newsgroups_
> The plan for the developer newsgroups is laid out at
> <https://wiki.mozilla.org/Discussion_Forums/Proposal>. There is more
> information there about the details of the problem. The solution for
> other newsgroups basically goes like this:
> * all posts require moderator approval
> * the moderator can add you to a whitelist, which means all your posts
> will be automatically approved
>
>
> _What is the plan for the support newsgroups_
> Because most threads in the support newsgroups are started by new
> posters, who often don't post in other threads, and rarely come back
> after their issue is fixed, the plan for the developer newsgroups isn't
> ideal for the support newsgroups. So I want to lay out our options and
> get your feedback.
>
>
> _The options_
>
> A) We mark the Google Groups end as read-only. This is not an option in
> the developer newsgroups, because web-access is mandatory. But for
> support, there are other (better) web-based support forums
> (support.mozilla.com, getsatisfaction, mozillazine, etc.), so the
> ability to post here via the web isn't really preventing users from
> getting web-based support.
> To see what a read-only Google Group looks like, go to
> <http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.general>
>
> However, I'm not sure this will stop spam that is cross-posted from
> other Google Groups. It may prevent people in the developer newsgroups
> from cross-posting to the support newsgroups via Google. And I'm not
> sure if users looking for help via the Google Groups end will know where
> to go, after they see that they cannot post.
>
>
> B) We implement the same plan as for the developer newsgroups, but only
> contributors are added to the whitelist. We then add more moderators, to
> increase the chances of a new thread getting approved quickly.
>
> However, this requires vigilance from moderators, and there may not be
> enough to eliminate the latency.
>
>
> C) We configure the newsgroups like the dev groups, but automatically
> approve every post, and let SpamAssassin filter the spam. (SpamAssassin
> is already installed on the mailing list, and has been doing a very good
> job of catching the spam and holding it for moderation.)
>
> However, the mailing lists still gets the odd message from non-members
> thinking it's a private support address. Right now, posts from
> non-members are automatically rejected and given a message explaining
> that this is a community forum. But if we go with plan C, those messages
> would be automatically approved.
>
>
> _Why this post_
> I'm looking for feedback. Which plan do you prefer? Are there any
> caveats we've missed? Any solutions you'd like to add?
>
I'm not primarily a computer person but like group.
Would prefer no moderator as it slows response time.
Spam is a PITA but not all that bad.
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Re: Proposed changes to the support newsgroups/mailing lists

defaria
On 02/03/2011 12:48 PM, Frank wrote:
C) We configure the newsgroups like the dev groups, but automatically
approve every post, and let SpamAssassin filter the spam. (SpamAssassin
is already installed on the mailing list, and has been doing a very good
job of catching the spam and holding it for moderation.)

However, the mailing lists still gets the odd message from non-members
thinking it's a private support address. Right now, posts from
non-members are automatically rejected and given a message explaining
that this is a community forum. But if we go with plan C, those messages
would be automatically approved.
I vote for C. Seems the most communicative and the least intrusive requiring the least amount of effort from the moderators.
--
Andrew DeFaria
Bureaucracy: a method of turning energy into solid waste

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Re: Proposed changes to the support newsgroups/mailing lists

Mike Easter-2
In reply to this post by Frank-32
Chris Ilias wrote:

> _The problem_
> Spam in the newsgroups.

> _What is the plan for the support newsgroups_

> _The options_
>
> A) We mark the Google Groups end as read-only. This is not an option in
> the developer newsgroups, because web-access is mandatory. But for
> support, there are other (better) web-based support forums
> (support.mozilla.com, getsatisfaction, mozillazine, etc.), so the
> ability to post here via the web isn't really preventing users from
> getting web-based support.

However, that strategy would deprecate the moz support groups by
diminishing its activity.

So it would diminish the options and interactions for the one seeking
help and it would diminish the activities for those rendering help.

> B) We implement the same plan as for the developer newsgroups, but only
> contributors are added to the whitelist. We then add more moderators, to
> increase the chances of a new thread getting approved quickly.
>
> However, this requires vigilance from moderators, and there may not be
> enough to eliminate the latency.

Gmane's strategy for auto-authenticating seems simpler than that.

> C) We configure the newsgroups like the dev groups, but automatically
> approve every post, and let SpamAssassin filter the spam. (SpamAssassin
> is already installed on the mailing list, and has been doing a very good
> job of catching the spam and holding it for moderation.)

I don't know if I understand that one.

> _Why this post_
> I'm looking for feedback. Which plan do you prefer? Are there any
> caveats we've missed? Any solutions you'd like to add?

Another idea would be to do it with gmane instead of GG and instead of
the mailman listserv.

Gmane provides a web interface, has good antispam strategies, provides a
news server and a mailing list.

A great many listserv/s converted themselves over to gmane's, which is
its principle function.

http://gmane.org/ There are currently 15,611 mailing lists subscribed to
Gmane, with a total of 106,936,814 messages. -

// This is what Gmane offers. Mailing lists are funneled into news
groups. This isn't a new idea; several mail-to-news gateways exist.
What's new with Gmane is that no messages are ever expired from the
server, and the gateway is bidirectional. You can post to some of these
mailing lists without being subscribed to them yourself, depending on
whether the mailing lists allow non-subscribers to post or not.

In addition, Gmane does spam detection, cross-post handling, has a
TMDA-fueled encryption/forwarding service, a web interface, respects
X-No-Archive, supplies RSS feeds, uses SPF, gathers traffic statistics,
and has a real-time indexing search engine. //

--
Mike Easter
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Re: Proposed changes to the support newsgroups/mailing lists

Bill Braun-2
In reply to this post by Frank-32
On 2/3/2011 12:34 PM, Chris Ilias wrote:

> _The options_
>
> A) We mark the Google Groups end as read-only. This is not an option in
> the developer newsgroups, because web-access is mandatory. But for
> support, there are other (better) web-based support forums
> (support.mozilla.com, getsatisfaction, mozillazine, etc.), so the
> ability to post here via the web isn't really preventing users from
> getting web-based support.
> To see what a read-only Google Group looks like, go to
> <http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.general>
>
> However, I'm not sure this will stop spam that is cross-posted from
> other Google Groups. It may prevent people in the developer newsgroups
> from cross-posting to the support newsgroups via Google. And I'm not
> sure if users looking for help via the Google Groups end will know where
> to go, after they see that they cannot post.
>
>
> B) We implement the same plan as for the developer newsgroups, but only
> contributors are added to the whitelist. We then add more moderators, to
> increase the chances of a new thread getting approved quickly.
>
> However, this requires vigilance from moderators, and there may not be
> enough to eliminate the latency.
>
>
> C) We configure the newsgroups like the dev groups, but automatically
> approve every post, and let SpamAssassin filter the spam. (SpamAssassin
> is already installed on the mailing list, and has been doing a very good
> job of catching the spam and holding it for moderation.)
>
> However, the mailing lists still gets the odd message from non-members
> thinking it's a private support address. Right now, posts from
> non-members are automatically rejected and given a message explaining
> that this is a community forum. But if we go with plan C, those messages
> would be automatically approved.

Option C. The downside mentioned can be handled with a brief, civil,
helpful response. We can even draw straws and take turns being nice to
people who have lost their way.

Bill B
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Re: Proposed changes to the support newsgroups/mailing lists

Michael-369
In reply to this post by Frank-32
Chris Ilias wrote:

> PREFACE: I'm setting replies to this post to be posted in
> mozilla.general. If you don't want to subscribe to mozilla.general, you
> send your response to my email address and I'll post it there.
>
>
> _The problem_
> Spam in the newsgroups.
>
>
> _How is it happening_
> These newsgroups are mirrored between lists.mozilla.org,
> news.mozilla.org, and Google Groups. All the spam is coming via Google
> Groups, and Google is doing nothing to stop it.
>
>
> _What are the proposed changes to fix it in other newsgroups_
> The plan for the developer newsgroups is laid out at
> <https://wiki.mozilla.org/Discussion_Forums/Proposal>. There is more
> information there about the details of the problem. The solution for
> other newsgroups basically goes like this:
> * all posts require moderator approval
> * the moderator can add you to a whitelist, which means all your posts
> will be automatically approved
>
>
> _What is the plan for the support newsgroups_
> Because most threads in the support newsgroups are started by new
> posters, who often don't post in other threads, and rarely come back
> after their issue is fixed, the plan for the developer newsgroups isn't
> ideal for the support newsgroups. So I want to lay out our options and
> get your feedback.
>
>
> _The options_
>
> A) We mark the Google Groups end as read-only. This is not an option in
> the developer newsgroups, because web-access is mandatory. But for
> support, there are other (better) web-based support forums
> (support.mozilla.com, getsatisfaction, mozillazine, etc.), so the
> ability to post here via the web isn't really preventing users from
> getting web-based support.
> To see what a read-only Google Group looks like, go to
> <http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.general>
>
> However, I'm not sure this will stop spam that is cross-posted from
> other Google Groups. It may prevent people in the developer newsgroups
> from cross-posting to the support newsgroups via Google. And I'm not
> sure if users looking for help via the Google Groups end will know where
> to go, after they see that they cannot post.
>
>
> B) We implement the same plan as for the developer newsgroups, but only
> contributors are added to the whitelist. We then add more moderators, to
> increase the chances of a new thread getting approved quickly.
>
> However, this requires vigilance from moderators, and there may not be
> enough to eliminate the latency.
>
>
> C) We configure the newsgroups like the dev groups, but automatically
> approve every post, and let SpamAssassin filter the spam. (SpamAssassin
> is already installed on the mailing list, and has been doing a very good
> job of catching the spam and holding it for moderation.)
>
> However, the mailing lists still gets the odd message from non-members
> thinking it's a private support address. Right now, posts from
> non-members are automatically rejected and given a message explaining
> that this is a community forum. But if we go with plan C, those messages
> would be automatically approved.
>
>
> _Why this post_
> I'm looking for feedback. Which plan do you prefer? Are there any
> caveats we've missed? Any solutions you'd like to add?
>

Chris,

It seems that Spam Assassin is performing a decent job of weeding out a
majority of Spam.  Some is going to leak through no matter what you do.

The one improvement many of us would like to see is the ability to use
graphic images to assist us in providing support from our own systems.
Granted not everybody's system is the same, but there are enough
similarities that image support could be a huge benefit.  One picture
can be worth a 1000 words or more.

Another improvement would be the inclusion of the header listing the
application type and version of the program sending the post.  We used
to have this many years ago because a lot of new users would use Mozilla
1.x to post a question and do not realize how important it is to know
what version and number we are working with.  Imaging trying to provide
support for Mozilla Suite 1.x through SeaMonkey 1.x, and now SeaMonkey 2.x.

Thanks for asking for our comments.

Michael
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Re: Proposed changes to the support newsgroups/mailing lists

PhillipJones
In reply to this post by Frank-32
Chris Ilias wrote:

> PREFACE: I'm setting replies to this post to be posted in
> mozilla.general. If you don't want to subscribe to mozilla.general, you
> send your response to my email address and I'll post it there.
>
>
> _The problem_
> Spam in the newsgroups.
>
>
> _How is it happening_
> These newsgroups are mirrored between lists.mozilla.org,
> news.mozilla.org, and Google Groups. All the spam is coming via Google
> Groups, and Google is doing nothing to stop it.
>
>
> _What are the proposed changes to fix it in other newsgroups_
> The plan for the developer newsgroups is laid out at
> <https://wiki.mozilla.org/Discussion_Forums/Proposal>. There is more
> information there about the details of the problem. The solution for
> other newsgroups basically goes like this:
> * all posts require moderator approval
> * the moderator can add you to a whitelist, which means all your posts
> will be automatically approved
>
>
> _What is the plan for the support newsgroups_
> Because most threads in the support newsgroups are started by new
> posters, who often don't post in other threads, and rarely come back
> after their issue is fixed, the plan for the developer newsgroups isn't
> ideal for the support newsgroups. So I want to lay out our options and
> get your feedback.
>
>
> _The options_
>
> A) We mark the Google Groups end as read-only. This is not an option in
> the developer newsgroups, because web-access is mandatory. But for
> support, there are other (better) web-based support forums
> (support.mozilla.com, getsatisfaction, mozillazine, etc.), so the
> ability to post here via the web isn't really preventing users from
> getting web-based support.
> To see what a read-only Google Group looks like, go to
> <http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.general>
>
> However, I'm not sure this will stop spam that is cross-posted from
> other Google Groups. It may prevent people in the developer newsgroups
> from cross-posting to the support newsgroups via Google. And I'm not
> sure if users looking for help via the Google Groups end will know where
> to go, after they see that they cannot post.
>
>
> B) We implement the same plan as for the developer newsgroups, but only
> contributors are added to the whitelist. We then add more moderators, to
> increase the chances of a new thread getting approved quickly.
>
> However, this requires vigilance from moderators, and there may not be
> enough to eliminate the latency.
>
>
> C) We configure the newsgroups like the dev groups, but automatically
> approve every post, and let SpamAssassin filter the spam. (SpamAssassin
> is already installed on the mailing list, and has been doing a very good
> job of catching the spam and holding it for moderation.)
>
> However, the mailing lists still gets the odd message from non-members
> thinking it's a private support address. Right now, posts from
> non-members are automatically rejected and given a message explaining
> that this is a community forum. But if we go with plan C, those messages
> would be automatically approved.
>
>
> _Why this post_
> I'm looking for feedback. Which plan do you prefer? Are there any
> caveats we've missed? Any solutions you'd like to add?
>


C first B second. A no way Jose.  Although I have a G-Mail Account I
don't use it all that there is Spam . It’s a Spammer's Dream.

Plan D would be to find another go between other than gmail who cares
about spam control. I think maybe Google actually encourage spam as
addition revenue.

In a recent article posted on cNet, ZDnet, and Computerworld. The CEO of
Google said he could careless about user Privacy.

--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.        "If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.net/       mailto:[hidden email]

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Re: Proposed changes to the support newsgroups/mailing lists

David H. Lipman-2
In reply to this post by Frank-32
From: "Chris Ilias" <[hidden email]>

| PREFACE: I'm setting replies to this post to be posted in
| mozilla.general. If you don't want to subscribe to mozilla.general, you
| send your response to my email address and I'll post it there.


| _The problem_
| Spam in the newsgroups.


| _How is it happening_
| These newsgroups are mirrored between lists.mozilla.org,
| news.mozilla.org, and Google Groups. All the spam is coming via Google
| Groups, and Google is doing nothing to stop it.


| _What are the proposed changes to fix it in other newsgroups_
| The plan for the developer newsgroups is laid out at
| <https://wiki.mozilla.org/Discussion_Forums/Proposal>. There is more
| information there about the details of the problem. The solution for
| other newsgroups basically goes like this:
| * all posts require moderator approval
| * the moderator can add you to a whitelist, which means all your posts
| will be automatically approved


| _What is the plan for the support newsgroups_
| Because most threads in the support newsgroups are started by new
| posters, who often don't post in other threads, and rarely come back
| after their issue is fixed, the plan for the developer newsgroups isn't
| ideal for the support newsgroups. So I want to lay out our options and
| get your feedback.


| _The options_

| A) We mark the Google Groups end as read-only. This is not an option in
| the developer newsgroups, because web-access is mandatory. But for
| support, there are other (better) web-based support forums
| (support.mozilla.com, getsatisfaction, mozillazine, etc.), so the
| ability to post here via the web isn't really preventing users from
| getting web-based support.
| To see what a read-only Google Group looks like, go to
| <http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.general>

| However, I'm not sure this will stop spam that is cross-posted from
| other Google Groups. It may prevent people in the developer newsgroups
| from cross-posting to the support newsgroups via Google. And I'm not
| sure if users looking for help via the Google Groups end will know where
| to go, after they see that they cannot post.


| B) We implement the same plan as for the developer newsgroups, but only
| contributors are added to the whitelist. We then add more moderators, to
| increase the chances of a new thread getting approved quickly.

| However, this requires vigilance from moderators, and there may not be
| enough to eliminate the latency.


| C) We configure the newsgroups like the dev groups, but automatically
| approve every post, and let SpamAssassin filter the spam. (SpamAssassin
| is already installed on the mailing list, and has been doing a very good
| job of catching the spam and holding it for moderation.)

| However, the mailing lists still gets the odd message from non-members
| thinking it's a private support address. Right now, posts from
| non-members are automatically rejected and given a message explaining
| that this is a community forum. But if we go with plan C, those messages
| would be automatically approved.


| _Why this post_
| I'm looking for feedback. Which plan do you prefer? Are there any
| caveats we've missed? Any solutions you'd like to add?

Move to GMane.Org


--
Dave
Multi-AV Scanning Tool - http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp 


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Re: Proposed changes to the support newsgroups/mailing lists

Mike Easter-2
In reply to this post by Mike Easter-2
Mike Easter wrote:
> Chris Ilias wrote:

>> B) We implement the same plan as for the developer newsgroups, but
>> only contributors are added to the whitelist. We then add more
>> moderators, to increase the chances of a new thread getting approved
>> quickly.

>> C) We configure the newsgroups like the dev groups, but automatically
>> approve every post, and let SpamAssassin filter the spam.
>> (SpamAssassin is already installed on the mailing list, and has been
>> doing a very good job of catching the spam and holding it for
>> moderation.)
>
> I don't know if I understand that one.

If I understand B&C correctly, that means that for either of those,
everything posted thru' the newsgroup is going to go thru' mailman with
the resultant adverse affect on the headers and threading.

I'm not sure I really understand whether or not the 'ugly' headers I see
in the developer groups are just ugly because the ones I looked at were
mailing list headers or what, but I seem to recall other mailman
situations in which the quality of threading was compromised by the
listserv header influence.

If the current moz.dev.apps.tbird is an example of how the headers would
look (more importantly, function) under plan B or C, then that's not
bad. If the headers are going to look like mailing list headers, I don't
think they work as well as normal nntp-only headers.



--
Mike Easter
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Re: Proposed changes to the support newsgroups/mailing lists

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by Frank-32
On 2/3/2011 11:34 AM, Chris Ilias wrote:

> PREFACE: I'm setting replies to this post to be posted in
> mozilla.general. If you don't want to subscribe to mozilla.general, you
> send your response to my email address and I'll post it there.
>
>
> _The problem_
> Spam in the newsgroups.
>
>
> _How is it happening_
> These newsgroups are mirrored between lists.mozilla.org,
> news.mozilla.org, and Google Groups. All the spam is coming via Google
> Groups, and Google is doing nothing to stop it.
>
>
> _What are the proposed changes to fix it in other newsgroups_
> The plan for the developer newsgroups is laid out at
> <https://wiki.mozilla.org/Discussion_Forums/Proposal>. There is more
> information there about the details of the problem. The solution for
> other newsgroups basically goes like this:
> * all posts require moderator approval
> * the moderator can add you to a whitelist, which means all your posts
> will be automatically approved
>
>
> _What is the plan for the support newsgroups_
> Because most threads in the support newsgroups are started by new
> posters, who often don't post in other threads, and rarely come back
> after their issue is fixed, the plan for the developer newsgroups isn't
> ideal for the support newsgroups. So I want to lay out our options and
> get your feedback.
>
>
> _The options_
>
> A) We mark the Google Groups end as read-only. This is not an option in
> the developer newsgroups, because web-access is mandatory. But for
> support, there are other (better) web-based support forums
> (support.mozilla.com, getsatisfaction, mozillazine, etc.), so the
> ability to post here via the web isn't really preventing users from
> getting web-based support.
> To see what a read-only Google Group looks like, go to
> <http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.general>
>
> However, I'm not sure this will stop spam that is cross-posted from
> other Google Groups. It may prevent people in the developer newsgroups
> from cross-posting to the support newsgroups via Google. And I'm not
> sure if users looking for help via the Google Groups end will know where
> to go, after they see that they cannot post.
>
>
> B) We implement the same plan as for the developer newsgroups, but only
> contributors are added to the whitelist. We then add more moderators, to
> increase the chances of a new thread getting approved quickly.
>
> However, this requires vigilance from moderators, and there may not be
> enough to eliminate the latency.
>
>
> C) We configure the newsgroups like the dev groups, but automatically
> approve every post, and let SpamAssassin filter the spam. (SpamAssassin
> is already installed on the mailing list, and has been doing a very good
> job of catching the spam and holding it for moderation.)
>
> However, the mailing lists still gets the odd message from non-members
> thinking it's a private support address. Right now, posts from
> non-members are automatically rejected and given a message explaining
> that this is a community forum. But if we go with plan C, those messages
> would be automatically approved.
>
>
> _Why this post_
> I'm looking for feedback. Which plan do you prefer? Are there any
> caveats we've missed? Any solutions you'd like to add?
>
Suggest examining the posts over the past month or so to whitelist
regular contributors, then implement the plan b.
However, I already have google groups filtered, so perhaps offering a
filter file to those who don't know how to create their own would be a
better solution.

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Re: Proposed changes to the support newsgroups/mailing lists

Terry R.-3
In reply to this post by PhillipJones
On 2/3/2011 1:09 PM On a whim, Phillip Jones pounded out on the keyboard

> Chris Ilias wrote:
>> PREFACE: I'm setting replies to this post to be posted in
>> mozilla.general. If you don't want to subscribe to mozilla.general, you
>> send your response to my email address and I'll post it there.
>>
>>
>> _The problem_
>> Spam in the newsgroups.
>>
>>
>> _How is it happening_
>> These newsgroups are mirrored between lists.mozilla.org,
>> news.mozilla.org, and Google Groups. All the spam is coming via Google
>> Groups, and Google is doing nothing to stop it.
>>
>>
>> _What are the proposed changes to fix it in other newsgroups_
>> The plan for the developer newsgroups is laid out at
>> <https://wiki.mozilla.org/Discussion_Forums/Proposal>. There is more
>> information there about the details of the problem. The solution for
>> other newsgroups basically goes like this:
>> * all posts require moderator approval
>> * the moderator can add you to a whitelist, which means all your posts
>> will be automatically approved
>>
>>
>> _What is the plan for the support newsgroups_
>> Because most threads in the support newsgroups are started by new
>> posters, who often don't post in other threads, and rarely come back
>> after their issue is fixed, the plan for the developer newsgroups isn't
>> ideal for the support newsgroups. So I want to lay out our options and
>> get your feedback.
>>
>>
>> _The options_
>>
>> A) We mark the Google Groups end as read-only. This is not an option in
>> the developer newsgroups, because web-access is mandatory. But for
>> support, there are other (better) web-based support forums
>> (support.mozilla.com, getsatisfaction, mozillazine, etc.), so the
>> ability to post here via the web isn't really preventing users from
>> getting web-based support.
>> To see what a read-only Google Group looks like, go to
>> <http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.general>
>>
>> However, I'm not sure this will stop spam that is cross-posted from
>> other Google Groups. It may prevent people in the developer newsgroups
>> from cross-posting to the support newsgroups via Google. And I'm not
>> sure if users looking for help via the Google Groups end will know where
>> to go, after they see that they cannot post.
>>
>>
>> B) We implement the same plan as for the developer newsgroups, but only
>> contributors are added to the whitelist. We then add more moderators, to
>> increase the chances of a new thread getting approved quickly.
>>
>> However, this requires vigilance from moderators, and there may not be
>> enough to eliminate the latency.
>>
>>
>> C) We configure the newsgroups like the dev groups, but automatically
>> approve every post, and let SpamAssassin filter the spam. (SpamAssassin
>> is already installed on the mailing list, and has been doing a very good
>> job of catching the spam and holding it for moderation.)
>>
>> However, the mailing lists still gets the odd message from non-members
>> thinking it's a private support address. Right now, posts from
>> non-members are automatically rejected and given a message explaining
>> that this is a community forum. But if we go with plan C, those messages
>> would be automatically approved.
>>
>>
>> _Why this post_
>> I'm looking for feedback. Which plan do you prefer? Are there any
>> caveats we've missed? Any solutions you'd like to add?
>>
>
>
> C first B second. A no way Jose.  Although I have a G-Mail Account I
> don't use it all that there is Spam . It’s a Spammer's Dream.
>
> Plan D would be to find another go between other than gmail who cares
> about spam control. I think maybe Google actually encourage spam as
> addition revenue.
>
> In a recent article posted on cNet, ZDnet, and Computerworld. The CEO of
> Google said he could careless about user Privacy.
>

You don't need a Gmail account to access Google Groups Phillip.  It has
nothing to do with what Chris suggested.

And Google has some of the best filtering out there for spam.


Terry R.
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Re: Proposed changes to the support newsgroups/mailing lists

goodwin-4
In reply to this post by Frank-32
On 02/03/2011 09:34 AM, Chris Ilias wrote:
>
>
> _Why this post_
> I'm looking for feedback. Which plan do you prefer? Are there any
> caveats we've missed? Any solutions you'd like to add?
>
gmane
then
Plan C
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Re: Proposed changes to the support newsgroups/mailing lists

Chris Ilias-4
In reply to this post by Mike Easter-2
On 11-02-03 4:31 PM, Mike Easter wrote:

> Mike Easter wrote:
>> Chris Ilias wrote:
>
>>> B) We implement the same plan as for the developer newsgroups, but
>>> only contributors are added to the whitelist. We then add more
>>> moderators, to increase the chances of a new thread getting approved
>>> quickly.
>
>>> C) We configure the newsgroups like the dev groups, but automatically
>>> approve every post, and let SpamAssassin filter the spam.
>>> (SpamAssassin is already installed on the mailing list, and has been
>>> doing a very good job of catching the spam and holding it for
>>> moderation.)
>>
>> I don't know if I understand that one.
>
> If I understand B&C correctly, that means that for either of those,
> everything posted thru' the newsgroup is going to go thru' mailman with
> the resultant adverse affect on the headers and threading.
>
> I'm not sure I really understand whether or not the 'ugly' headers I see
> in the developer groups are just ugly because the ones I looked at were
> mailing list headers or what, but I seem to recall other mailman
> situations in which the quality of threading was compromised by the
> listserv header influence.
>
> If the current moz.dev.apps.tbird is an example of how the headers would
> look (more importantly, function) under plan B or C, then that's not
> bad. If the headers are going to look like mailing list headers, I don't
> think they work as well as normal nntp-only headers.

Posting via the mailing list doesn't strip reference headers, so
threading should not change. One newsgroup that has set up like option B
for a long time now is mozilla.test.multimedia, so you can test
threading there if you like.
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Re: Proposed changes to the support newsgroups/mailing lists

Chris Ilias-4
In reply to this post by Bill Braun-2
On 11-02-03 1:55 PM, Bill B wrote:

> On 2/3/2011 12:34 PM, Chris Ilias wrote:
>> C) We configure the newsgroups like the dev groups, but automatically
>> approve every post, and let SpamAssassin filter the spam. (SpamAssassin
>> is already installed on the mailing list, and has been doing a very good
>> job of catching the spam and holding it for moderation.)
>>
>> However, the mailing lists still gets the odd message from non-members
>> thinking it's a private support address. Right now, posts from
>> non-members are automatically rejected and given a message explaining
>> that this is a community forum. But if we go with plan C, those messages
>> would be automatically approved.
>
> Option C. The downside mentioned can be handled with a brief, civil,
> helpful response. We can even draw straws and take turns being nice to
> people who have lost their way.

The problem mentioned is not a matter of how those users are treated by
the community. Even if the user gets a helpful polite response, they're
not going to see it, because they're not subscribed to the mailing list,
newsgroup, or google group.
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Re: Proposed changes to the support newsgroups/mailing lists

JoeS-3
In reply to this post by Frank-32
On 2/3/2011 12:34 PM, Chris Ilias wrote:
> C) We configure the newsgroups like the dev groups, but automatically
> approve every post, and let SpamAssassin filter the spam. (SpamAssassin
> is already installed on the mailing list, and has been doing a very good
> job of catching the spam and holding it for moderation.)

I vote for this.
Remember that with TB3 trunk, it is now possible to locally delete spam
with a simple press of the del key. So what does get through is easily
disposed of.

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Re: Proposed changes to the support newsgroups/mailing lists

Chris Ilias-4
In reply to this post by David H. Lipman-2
On 11-02-03 4:25 PM, David H. Lipman wrote:
>
> Move to GMane.Org

I'm not sure why gmane was rejected for the dev groups. I'll look into
that, as I'm not that familiar with gmane.

I assume it would have the same negative affect as plan A, and I'm not
sure how much would be in Mozilla's control.

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Re: Proposed changes to the support newsgroups/mailing lists

»Q«
In <news:[hidden email]>,
Chris Ilias <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11-02-03 4:25 PM, David H. Lipman wrote:
> >
> > Move to GMane.Org
>
> I'm not sure why gmane was rejected for the dev groups. I'll look
> into that, as I'm not that familiar with gmane.
>
> I assume it would have the same negative affect as plan A, and I'm
> not sure how much would be in Mozilla's control.

With Gmane, Mozilla would control the mailing lists, and Gmane would
provide the nntp and web interfaces.  Gmane may have other options, but
that's generally the way it works.  It was set up mainly to provide nntp
access (a gateway) to the many Linux mailing lists (both dev and
support lists).  The web interface was secondary, but it's been greatly
improved over the years, and I actually prefer it to Google's.

Plan A involved having a read-only web interface (Google's), but
Gmane's would be read-write.

There may some show-stopper with Gmane, but if there is I've never
seen anyone bring it up.  Gmane seems to me to meet all the stuff people
want in a web interface (reading, posting, archive access) without the
drawbacks of Google (spam, unresponsiveness in the face of problems).

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Re: Proposed changes to the support newsgroups/mailing lists

David H. Lipman-2
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-4
From: "Chris Ilias" <[hidden email]>

| On 11-02-03 4:25 PM, David H. Lipman wrote:

>> Move to GMane.Org

| I'm not sure why gmane was rejected for the dev groups. I'll look into
| that, as I'm not that familiar with gmane.

| I assume it would have the same negative affect as plan A, and I'm not
| sure how much would be in Mozilla's control.

It is used for the likes of...
OpenOffice
LibreOffice
WGet
WireShark
Python




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Re: Proposed changes to the support newsgroups/mailing lists

W3BNR
In reply to this post by Mike Easter-2
On 2/3/2011 1:31 PM Mike Easter wrote:

> Chris Ilias wrote:
>
>> _The problem_
>> Spam in the newsgroups.
>
>> _What is the plan for the support newsgroups_
>
>> _The options_
>>
>> A) We mark the Google Groups end as read-only. This is not an option
>> in the developer newsgroups, because web-access is mandatory. But for
>> support, there are other (better) web-based support forums
>> (support.mozilla.com, getsatisfaction, mozillazine, etc.), so the
>> ability to post here via the web isn't really preventing users from
>> getting web-based support.
>
> However, that strategy would deprecate the moz support groups by
> diminishing its activity.
>
> So it would diminish the options and interactions for the one seeking
> help and it would diminish the activities for those rendering help.
>
>> B) We implement the same plan as for the developer newsgroups, but
>> only contributors are added to the whitelist. We then add more
>> moderators, to increase the chances of a new thread getting approved
>> quickly.
>>
>> However, this requires vigilance from moderators, and there may not be
>> enough to eliminate the latency.
>
> Gmane's strategy for auto-authenticating seems simpler than that.
>
>> C) We configure the newsgroups like the dev groups, but automatically
>> approve every post, and let SpamAssassin filter the spam.
>> (SpamAssassin is already installed on the mailing list, and has been
>> doing a very good job of catching the spam and holding it for
>> moderation.)
>
> I don't know if I understand that one.
>
>> _Why this post_
>> I'm looking for feedback. Which plan do you prefer? Are there any
>> caveats we've missed? Any solutions you'd like to add?
>
> Another idea would be to do it with gmane instead of GG and instead of
> the mailman listserv.
>
> Gmane provides a web interface, has good antispam strategies, provides a
> news server and a mailing list.
>
> A great many listserv/s converted themselves over to gmane's, which is
> its principle function.
>
> http://gmane.org/ There are currently 15,611 mailing lists subscribed to
> Gmane, with a total of 106,936,814 messages. -
>
> // This is what Gmane offers. Mailing lists are funneled into news
> groups. This isn't a new idea; several mail-to-news gateways exist.
> What's new with Gmane is that no messages are ever expired from the
> server, and the gateway is bidirectional. You can post to some of these
> mailing lists without being subscribed to them yourself, depending on
> whether the mailing lists allow non-subscribers to post or not.
>
> In addition, Gmane does spam detection, cross-post handling, has a
> TMDA-fueled encryption/forwarding service, a web interface, respects
> X-No-Archive, supplies RSS feeds, uses SPF, gathers traffic statistics,
> and has a real-time indexing search engine. //
>

Plan D: Gmane seems to be the best option, if one is to be picked.
I find that most of the spam in the last few months can be easily deleted by the
use of filters. i.e. ALL CAPS, Google.  Other than those I haven't seen any.

--
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Re: Proposed changes to the support newsgroups/mailing lists

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-4
On 03.02.2011 17:10, Chris Ilias wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> On 11-02-03 1:55 PM, Bill B wrote:
>> On 2/3/2011 12:34 PM, Chris Ilias wrote:
>>> C) We configure the newsgroups like the dev groups, but automatically
>>> approve every post, and let SpamAssassin filter the spam. (SpamAssassin
>>> is already installed on the mailing list, and has been doing a very good
>>> job of catching the spam and holding it for moderation.)
>>>
>>> However, the mailing lists still gets the odd message from non-members
>>> thinking it's a private support address. Right now, posts from
>>> non-members are automatically rejected and given a message explaining
>>> that this is a community forum. But if we go with plan C, those messages
>>> would be automatically approved.
>>
>> Option C. The downside mentioned can be handled with a brief, civil,
>> helpful response. We can even draw straws and take turns being nice to
>> people who have lost their way.
>
> The problem mentioned is not a matter of how those users are treated by
> the community. Even if the user gets a helpful polite response, they're
> not going to see it, because they're not subscribed to the mailing list,
> newsgroup, or google group.

For whatever reason the initial post is no longer available, so I'll
make my suggestion here:

Leave it as-is, the spam is livable as long as there are no responses to
it/them, etc.


--
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*DISCLAIMER: I have no authority here, therefore all replies other than
factual support answers are my opinions only.*
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Re: Proposed changes to the support newsgroups/mailing lists

David E. Ross-3
In reply to this post by Frank-32
Whatever alternative is selected, it should NOT increase the likelihood
of broken threads.  To me, a reply that is not within the same thread as
the original message is almost as annoying as spam.
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