Re: Minor irritation

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Re: Minor irritation

M Cowperthwaite
Graham Reeds wrote:
> This is a minor irritation: When someone requests a receipt it gives the
> option of Yes and Cancel. Shouldn't the option to the receipt be Yes and
> No?

I think everyone would agree that Yes/Cancel is wrong.  The one-time UI
guru at Netscape claims that Yes/No is never right.
   <http://mpt.phrasewise.com/stories/storyReader$4>

I agree with his basic point, but I think the absolutism is just silly.
For this dialog, in particular, so long as the question is sensibly
phrased, Yes/No seems an appropriate choice.

--
Michael Cowperthwaite

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Re: Minor irritation

Mark Lloyd
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:59:01 -0500, M Cowperthwaite <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>Graham Reeds wrote:
>> This is a minor irritation: When someone requests a receipt it gives the
>> option of Yes and Cancel. Shouldn't the option to the receipt be Yes and
>> No?
>
>I think everyone would agree that Yes/Cancel is wrong.  The one-time UI
>guru at Netscape claims that Yes/No is never right.
>   <http://mpt.phrasewise.com/stories/storyReader$4>
>
>I agree with his basic point, but I think the absolutism is just silly.
>For this dialog, in particular, so long as the question is sensibly
>phrased, Yes/No seems an appropriate choice.

It's about to send a receipt, but asks if that's what you want. "No"
means "don't send a receipt" and "Cancel" means "stop processing now"
(that is, don't send a receipt). I may talk about which I prefer, but
wouldn't object to someone else's choice.
--
71 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Minor irritation

Graham Reeds
In reply to this post by M Cowperthwaite
M Cowperthwaite wrote:

> Graham Reeds wrote:
>
>> This is a minor irritation: When someone requests a receipt it gives
>> the option of Yes and Cancel. Shouldn't the option to the receipt be
>> Yes and No?
>
>
> I think everyone would agree that Yes/Cancel is wrong.  The one-time UI
> guru at Netscape claims that Yes/No is never right.
>   <http://mpt.phrasewise.com/stories/storyReader$4>
>
> I agree with his basic point, but I think the absolutism is just silly.
> For this dialog, in particular, so long as the question is sensibly
> phrased, Yes/No seems an appropriate choice.
>

By his logic then it should be Send/Don't Send.  Cancel would return you
to the state before whatever caused the dialog box to appear in the
first place, meaning a dialog box would appear asking if you want to
return the receipt:-)

G.
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Re: Minor irritation

Clay-2
Mark Lloyd wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:44:30 GMT, Justin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>>Graham Reeds wrote on [Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:00:40 +0100]:
>>
>>>M Cowperthwaite wrote:
>>>
>>>>Graham Reeds wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>This is a minor irritation: When someone requests a receipt it gives
>>>>>the option of Yes and Cancel. Shouldn't the option to the receipt be
>>>>>Yes and No?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I think everyone would agree that Yes/Cancel is wrong.  The one-time UI
>>>>guru at Netscape claims that Yes/No is never right.
>>>>  <http://mpt.phrasewise.com/stories/storyReader$4>
>>>>
>>>>I agree with his basic point, but I think the absolutism is just silly.
>>>>For this dialog, in particular, so long as the question is sensibly
>>>>phrased, Yes/No seems an appropriate choice.
>>>>
>>>
>>>By his logic then it should be Send/Don't Send.  Cancel would return you
>>>to the state before whatever caused the dialog box to appear in the
>>>first place, meaning a dialog box would appear asking if you want to
>>>return the receipt:-)
>>
>>Wouldn't Cancel just not open the email?
>
>
> It's ambiguous.
>
> If 'cancel' applied to the process of reading mail, then yes. If
> 'cancel' applied to sending the receipt, then no.
>
> I'm changing my earlier answer. Now I say it should be 'No' to not
> send a receipt ('cancel' could be correct, but 'no' is the better
> answer).
I just love the alert box I saw on some particularly stubborn adware I
uninstalled from a friends pc.
The popup said:
"Are you sure you don't want to uninstall this software"
With the usual YES NO option...
sneaky bastards!
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Re: Minor irritation

Mark Lloyd
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 00:06:18 GMT, Clay <[hidden email]> wrote:

>Mark Lloyd wrote:
>> On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:44:30 GMT, Justin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Graham Reeds wrote on [Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:00:40 +0100]:
>>>
>>>>M Cowperthwaite wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Graham Reeds wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>This is a minor irritation: When someone requests a receipt it gives
>>>>>>the option of Yes and Cancel. Shouldn't the option to the receipt be
>>>>>>Yes and No?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I think everyone would agree that Yes/Cancel is wrong.  The one-time UI
>>>>>guru at Netscape claims that Yes/No is never right.
>>>>>  <http://mpt.phrasewise.com/stories/storyReader$4>
>>>>>
>>>>>I agree with his basic point, but I think the absolutism is just silly.
>>>>>For this dialog, in particular, so long as the question is sensibly
>>>>>phrased, Yes/No seems an appropriate choice.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>By his logic then it should be Send/Don't Send.  Cancel would return you
>>>>to the state before whatever caused the dialog box to appear in the
>>>>first place, meaning a dialog box would appear asking if you want to
>>>>return the receipt:-)
>>>
>>>Wouldn't Cancel just not open the email?
>>
>>
>> It's ambiguous.
>>
>> If 'cancel' applied to the process of reading mail, then yes. If
>> 'cancel' applied to sending the receipt, then no.
>>
>> I'm changing my earlier answer. Now I say it should be 'No' to not
>> send a receipt ('cancel' could be correct, but 'no' is the better
>> answer).
>I just love the alert box I saw on some particularly stubborn adware I
>uninstalled from a friends pc.
>The popup said:
>"Are you sure you don't want to uninstall this software"
>With the usual YES NO option...
>sneaky bastards!

I once had a game program, that when you tried to quit, you'd get a
prompt that said "Are you sure you want to quit?". Answering 'yes'
would get you another with "Do you want to resume the game?". Maybe
they hoped you wouldn't notice that the effective meanings of 'yes'
and 'no' were reversed. 'no' to that would give you "Are you really
sure you want to quit?". 'yes' would now lead to "Are you really
really sure you want to quit?". It would keep that up until the word
'really' appeared 255 times. Then it would start all over.
--
67 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Minor irritation

gwtc
Mark Lloyd wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 00:06:18 GMT, Clay <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>>Mark Lloyd wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:44:30 GMT, Justin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Graham Reeds wrote on [Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:00:40 +0100]:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>M Cowperthwaite wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Graham Reeds wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>This is a minor irritation: When someone requests a receipt it gives
>>>>>>>the option of Yes and Cancel. Shouldn't the option to the receipt be
>>>>>>>Yes and No?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I think everyone would agree that Yes/Cancel is wrong.  The one-time UI
>>>>>>guru at Netscape claims that Yes/No is never right.
>>>>>> <http://mpt.phrasewise.com/stories/storyReader$4>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I agree with his basic point, but I think the absolutism is just silly.
>>>>>>For this dialog, in particular, so long as the question is sensibly
>>>>>>phrased, Yes/No seems an appropriate choice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>By his logic then it should be Send/Don't Send.  Cancel would return you
>>>>>to the state before whatever caused the dialog box to appear in the
>>>>>first place, meaning a dialog box would appear asking if you want to
>>>>>return the receipt:-)
>>>>
>>>>Wouldn't Cancel just not open the email?
>>>
>>>
>>>It's ambiguous.
>>>
>>>If 'cancel' applied to the process of reading mail, then yes. If
>>>'cancel' applied to sending the receipt, then no.
>>>
>>>I'm changing my earlier answer. Now I say it should be 'No' to not
>>>send a receipt ('cancel' could be correct, but 'no' is the better
>>>answer).
>>
>>I just love the alert box I saw on some particularly stubborn adware I
>>uninstalled from a friends pc.
>>The popup said:
>>"Are you sure you don't want to uninstall this software"
>>With the usual YES NO option...
>>sneaky bastards!
>
>
> I once had a game program, that when you tried to quit, you'd get a
> prompt that said "Are you sure you want to quit?". Answering 'yes'
> would get you another with "Do you want to resume the game?". Maybe
> they hoped you wouldn't notice that the effective meanings of 'yes'
> and 'no' were reversed. 'no' to that would give you "Are you really
> sure you want to quit?". 'yes' would now lead to "Are you really
> really sure you want to quit?". It would keep that up until the word
> 'really' appeared 255 times. Then it would start all over.
after two of those I would end it with the task manager.  I wouldn't
sit there for all 255 times.  Who would?  Did you?  You must have,
otherwise how would you know about it doing it 255 times!
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Re: Minor irritation

Graham Reeds
> after two of those I would end it with the task manager.  I wouldn't sit
> there for all 255 times.  Who would?  Did you?  You must have, otherwise
> how would you know about it doing it 255 times!

No. He was the evil sod who wrote it in the first place...

G.
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Re: Minor irritation

Mark Lloyd
In reply to this post by gwtc
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:42:00 -0700, gwtc
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>Mark Lloyd wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 00:06:18 GMT, Clay <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Mark Lloyd wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:44:30 GMT, Justin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Graham Reeds wrote on [Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:00:40 +0100]:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>M Cowperthwaite wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Graham Reeds wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>This is a minor irritation: When someone requests a receipt it gives
>>>>>>>>the option of Yes and Cancel. Shouldn't the option to the receipt be
>>>>>>>>Yes and No?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I think everyone would agree that Yes/Cancel is wrong.  The one-time UI
>>>>>>>guru at Netscape claims that Yes/No is never right.
>>>>>>> <http://mpt.phrasewise.com/stories/storyReader$4>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I agree with his basic point, but I think the absolutism is just silly.
>>>>>>>For this dialog, in particular, so long as the question is sensibly
>>>>>>>phrased, Yes/No seems an appropriate choice.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>By his logic then it should be Send/Don't Send.  Cancel would return you
>>>>>>to the state before whatever caused the dialog box to appear in the
>>>>>>first place, meaning a dialog box would appear asking if you want to
>>>>>>return the receipt:-)
>>>>>
>>>>>Wouldn't Cancel just not open the email?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>It's ambiguous.
>>>>
>>>>If 'cancel' applied to the process of reading mail, then yes. If
>>>>'cancel' applied to sending the receipt, then no.
>>>>
>>>>I'm changing my earlier answer. Now I say it should be 'No' to not
>>>>send a receipt ('cancel' could be correct, but 'no' is the better
>>>>answer).
>>>
>>>I just love the alert box I saw on some particularly stubborn adware I
>>>uninstalled from a friends pc.
>>>The popup said:
>>>"Are you sure you don't want to uninstall this software"
>>>With the usual YES NO option...
>>>sneaky bastards!
>>
>>
>> I once had a game program, that when you tried to quit, you'd get a
>> prompt that said "Are you sure you want to quit?". Answering 'yes'
>> would get you another with "Do you want to resume the game?". Maybe
>> they hoped you wouldn't notice that the effective meanings of 'yes'
>> and 'no' were reversed. 'no' to that would give you "Are you really
>> sure you want to quit?". 'yes' would now lead to "Are you really
>> really sure you want to quit?". It would keep that up until the word
>> 'really' appeared 255 times. Then it would start all over.
>after two of those I would end it with the task manager.  I wouldn't
>sit there for all 255 times.  Who would?  Did you?  You must have,
>otherwise how would you know about it doing it 255 times!

I did that ONCE, when I wanted to see what would happen. As I
predicted, that was useless as that program wouldn't actually let you
out.
--
67 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Minor irritation

Mark Lloyd
In reply to this post by Graham Reeds
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:59:59 +0100, Graham Reeds
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>> after two of those I would end it with the task manager.  I wouldn't sit
>> there for all 255 times.  Who would?  Did you?  You must have, otherwise
>> how would you know about it doing it 255 times!
>
>No. He was the evil sod who wrote it in the first place...
>
>G.

Actually I did do something like that once, when learning to write
programs. It was an extension to a BASIC language interpreter that
changed the error messages, so that any mistake would cause a line
like this:

A RABBIT IN LINE 20

The next error would change the message to:

2 RABBITS IN LINE 20

Then 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 rabbits (easy to do in machine language),
finally:

TOO MANY RABBITS IN LINE 20

I made it do so at that point because of the limits of a byte (8-bit)
variable. The program had no read purpose other than learning how to
do such things.
--
67 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Minor irritation

Matthew Paul Thomas-2
In reply to this post by Graham Reeds
Justin wrote:

>
> Graham Reeds wrote on [Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:00:40 +0100]:
>>
>>M Cowperthwaite wrote:
>>
>>>Graham Reeds wrote:
>>>
>>>>This is a minor irritation: When someone requests a receipt it gives
>>>>the option of Yes and Cancel. Shouldn't the option to the receipt be
>>>>Yes and No?
>>>
>>>I think everyone would agree that Yes/Cancel is wrong.  The one-time UI
>>>guru at Netscape claims that Yes/No is never right.
>>>  <http://mpt.phrasewise.com/stories/storyReader$4>

I never worked at Netscape.

>>>I agree with his basic point, but I think the absolutism is just silly.
>>>For this dialog, in particular, so long as the question is sensibly
>>>phrased, Yes/No seems an appropriate choice.

I disagree with a few of the things I wrote four years ago, but I've had
no reason to change my mind on Yes and No being completely inappropriate
labels for buttons.

Daniel J. Wilson has provided excellent examples of fixing "Yes"/"No"
alerts in a variety of popular applications.
<http://blog.wilsonet.com/archives/2005/07/12/yes-or-no-2>

>>By his logic then it should be Send/Don't Send.

That would be a sensible minimal fix.

>>Cancel would return you
>>to the state before whatever caused the dialog box to appear in the
>>first place, meaning a dialog box would appear asking if you want to
>>return the receipt:-)
>
> Wouldn't Cancel just not open the email?

In theory, yes. In practice, that would be rather pointless. :-)

In the long run, I think alerts shouldn't exist at all, but those where
a "Cancel" button wouldn't make sense seem particularly easy to get rid
of. The way to eliminate this particular alert would be to use a header
panel in the message pane, similar to that used for junk mail.

     Thunderbird thinks this message is junk.        ( Not Junk )

     The sender of this message wants a receipt. ( Send Receipt )

--
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/
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Re: Minor irritation

M Cowperthwaite
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

>>> M Cowperthwaite wrote:
>>>
>>>> Graham Reeds wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This is a minor irritation: When someone requests a receipt it
>>>>> gives the option of Yes and Cancel. Shouldn't the option to the
>>>>> receipt be Yes and No?
>>>>
>>>> I think everyone would agree that Yes/Cancel is wrong.  The one-time
>>>> UI guru at Netscape claims that Yes/No is never right.
>>>>  <http://mpt.phrasewise.com/stories/storyReader$4>
>
> I never worked at Netscape.

My mistake.

--
Michael Cowperthwaite

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