Re: Minimize to tray for Linux and TB 11.0

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
10 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Minimize to tray for Linux and TB 11.0

»Q«
On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 22:39:42 -0700 (PDT)
Andrew DeFaria <[hidden email]> wrote:

> (Excuse me for this side rant however, why is it we need to compile
> things like nVidia drivers and vmware into our kernels anyway?
> Doesn't the Linux kernel support dynamically loaded modules? And
> wasn't that supposed to relieve the need to have to recompile the
> kernel???? But I digress...)

Not only do you not need to compile nVidia drivers into the kernel,
you can't compile them into the kernel.  They have to be modules.  I
have no idea what issues Ubuntu has with nVidia drivers, but in general
it's not a problem to build them against 3.x kernels.

Crossposting to mozilla.general, with followup set there.
_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Minimize to tray for Linux and TB 11.0

defaria
On 03/15/2012 08:36 AM, »Q« wrote:
On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 22:39:42 -0700 (PDT)
Andrew DeFaria [hidden email] wrote:

(Excuse me for this side rant however, why is it we need to compile
things like nVidia drivers and vmware into our kernels anyway?
Doesn't the Linux kernel support dynamically loaded modules? And
wasn't that supposed to relieve the need to have to recompile the
kernel???? But I digress...)
Not only do you not need to compile nVidia drivers into the kernel,
you can't compile them into the kernel.  They have to be modules.  I
have no idea what issues Ubuntu has with nVidia drivers, but in general
it's not a problem to build them against 3.x kernels.

Crossposting to mozilla.general, with followup set there.
I believed it to be compiling into the kernel. Perhaps it's not. However the issue still remains why do I need to compile it at all! Why not just apt-get install nvidia and be done with it? And why does it (often) fail to compile? It's been my direct experience, I believe caused by two factors 1) being Linux and 2) being 64 bit.

I know that I have to compile sound drivers into the kernel and I have to compile vmware into the kernel. A new kernel will come out and update and then vmware and sound screw up requiring me to run a pretty non-standard build for the sound card. Vmware used to be pretty horrible too often with compile failures and the like. Luckily it's much better now in that you only need to run vmplayer, it senses that it needs to recompile and does so usually pretty flawlessly lately.

And none of this changes the fact that the Minimize To Tray extension is broken on 64 bit Linux.
--
Andrew DeFaria
Department of Redundancy Department

_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Minimize to tray for Linux and TB 11.0

WaltS-3
In reply to this post by »Q«
On 03/15/2012 11:36 AM, »Q« wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 22:39:42 -0700 (PDT)
> Andrew DeFaria <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> (Excuse me for this side rant however, why is it we need to compile
>> things like nVidia drivers and vmware into our kernels anyway?
>> Doesn't the Linux kernel support dynamically loaded modules? And
>> wasn't that supposed to relieve the need to have to recompile the
>> kernel???? But I digress...)
>
> Not only do you not need to compile nVidia drivers into the kernel,
> you can't compile them into the kernel.  They have to be modules.  I
> have no idea what issues Ubuntu has with nVidia drivers, but in general
> it's not a problem to build them against 3.x kernels.
>
> Crossposting to mozilla.general, with followup set there.

I don't have experience with any other Linux than openSUSE. A fresh
install of openSUSE installs the nouveau driver for nVidia graphics cards.

To install the nVidia driver I add the nVidia repository, select the
driver, accept the dependencies, and click accept.

No need to compile into the kernel. Unless that is the hard way I see
mentioned in the openSUSE forum at times.

"Note: This kind of installation requires to repeat driver compilation
each time kernel is updated, so keep NVIDIA script
(NVIDIA-Linux-******.run) in the same directory that is easy to reach
with command line tools, as that is all you will have after computer is
started with a new kernel."

http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:NVIDIA_the_hard_way

--
Thunderbird Beta | openSUSE 12.1 | KDE 4.7.2
Humans aren't a color of skin, a religion, a sex, a sexual orientation,
or a flag. We are human beings and that is how we need to see and treat
each other. - Justin Sane
_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Minimize to tray for Linux and TB 11.0

»Q«
In reply to this post by defaria
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 09:08:30 -0700
Andrew DeFaria <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 03/15/2012 08:36 AM, »Q« wrote:On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 22:39:42 -0700
> (PDT) Andrew DeFaria <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> (Excuse me for this side rant however, why is it we need to compile
> things like nVidia drivers and vmware into our kernels anyway?
> Doesn't the Linux kernel support dynamically loaded modules? And
> wasn't that supposed to relieve the need to have to recompile the
> kernel???? But I digress...)
> Not only do you not need to compile nVidia drivers into the kernel,
> you can't compile them into the kernel.  They have to be modules.  I
> have no idea what issues Ubuntu has with nVidia drivers, but in
> general it's not a problem to build them against 3.x kernels.
>
> Crossposting to mozilla.general, with followup set there.
>
>  I believed it to be compiling into the kernel. Perhaps it's not.
> However the issue still remains why do I need to compile it at all!
> Why not just apt-get install nvidia and be done with it?

Modules need to be compiled against the kernel they are going to run
with.  Some distros provide pre-compiled nVidia drivers which match the
kernels they ship.  I take it from what you've posted that Ubuntu
doesn't do that.  I'd guess that the Ubuntu Way is to ship nouveau
instead of nVidia's drivers, but I don't know.

> And why does it (often) fail to compile? It's been my direct
> experience, I believe caused by two factors 1) being Linux and 2)
> being 64 bit.

No idea, except that those two factors don't cause me problems.  I've
compiled nvidia drivers hundreds of times over the years without any
failures. Probably only dozens of times with 64-bit.  (But Gentoo
provides scripts to do the building, so I don't have to worry much about
configuring before compiling -- it happens mostly automagically.)

> I know that I have to compile sound drivers into the kernel and I
> have to compile vmware into the kernel. A new kernel will come out
> and update and then vmware and sound screw up requiring me to run a
> pretty non-standard build for the sound card. Vmware used to be
> pretty horrible too often with compile failures and the like. Luckily
> it's much better now in that you only need to run vmplayer, it senses
> that it needs to recompile and does so usually pretty flawlessly
> lately.

ITYM "compile against the kernel" instead of "compile into the
kernel".  A new kernel means compiling all the modules that are going
to be used with it.  I'd guess Ubuntu compiles them for you, and they
are updated along with the kernel, except for the modules that are
giving you trouble.

> And none of this changes the fact that the Minimize To Tray extension
> is broken on 64 bit Linux. --

AFAICT from AMO, it's not available for non-Windows OSes.
"MinimizeToTray revived" works for me.

<https://addons.mozilla.org/thunderbird/addon/minimizetotray-revived>

_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Minimize to tray for Linux and TB 11.0

defaria
In reply to this post by WaltS-3
On 03/15/12 09:18, WLS wrote:
I don't have experience with any other Linux than openSUSE. A fresh
install of openSUSE installs the nouveau driver for nVidia graphics cards.

To install the nVidia driver I add the nVidia repository, select the
driver, accept the dependencies, and click accept.

No need to compile into the kernel. Unless that is the hard way I see
mentioned in the openSUSE forum at times.

"Note: This kind of installation requires to repeat driver compilation
each time kernel is updated, so keep NVIDIA script
(NVIDIA-Linux-******.run) in the same directory that is easy to reach
with command line tools, as that is all you will have after computer is
started with a new kernel."

http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:NVIDIA_the_hard_way
Yeah those .run files. Ran them many times myself. I've had it fail more than you apparently have. In any event, when I installed 11.10 I tried to get the nVidia drivers to recompile so I could have it show up and be activated but it wasn't. So I ran the .run file in the hopes that that would work. It failed. I looked as some of the make logs and it appeared to me that this build system didn't work in 3.x environments. Maybe I got the wrong .run file.
--
Andrew DeFaria
Ever notice how irons have a setting for permanent press? I don't get it...

_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Minimize to tray for Linux and TB 11.0

defaria
In reply to this post by »Q«
On 03/15/12 18:45, »Q« wrote:
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 09:08:30 -0700
Andrew DeFaria [hidden email] wrote:

On 03/15/2012 08:36 AM, »Q« wrote:On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 22:39:42 -0700
(PDT) Andrew DeFaria [hidden email] wrote:

(Excuse me for this side rant however, why is it we need to compile
things like nVidia drivers and vmware into our kernels anyway?
Doesn't the Linux kernel support dynamically loaded modules? And
wasn't that supposed to relieve the need to have to recompile the
kernel???? But I digress...)
Not only do you not need to compile nVidia drivers into the kernel,
you can't compile them into the kernel.  They have to be modules.  I
have no idea what issues Ubuntu has with nVidia drivers, but in
general it's not a problem to build them against 3.x kernels.

Crossposting to mozilla.general, with followup set there.

 I believed it to be compiling into the kernel. Perhaps it's not.
However the issue still remains why do I need to compile it at all!
Why not just apt-get install nvidia and be done with it?
Modules need to be compiled against the kernel they are going to run
with.  Some distros provide pre-compiled nVidia drivers which match the
kernels they ship.  I take it from what you've posted that Ubuntu
doesn't do that.  I'd guess that the Ubuntu Way is to ship nouveau
instead of nVidia's drivers, but I don't know.
IIRC, Ubuntu ships an "open source" driver in favour of a proprietary drivers from nVidia. But the open source drivers don't support accelerated graphics necessary for things like Compiz. I like Compiz... So you gotta go out and get these and run the .run files, etc. But regardless of "compiled into" or "compiled against" (you're right, I guess they are just compiled against the kernel) it always makes me scratch my head and wonder why I need to do "extra stuff" like compiling against the kernel for this particular piece of software? I mean I don't have "compile against the kernel" Open Office, or Banshee or Nautilus for example. Why must I for this software? (Or the sound card software or vmware). Why isn't it just like gnome-terminal in that it's installed by apt-get and maintained by update-manager? 
And why does it (often) fail to compile? It's been my direct
experience, I believe caused by two factors 1) being Linux and 2)
being 64 bit.
No idea, except that those two factors don't cause me problems.  I've
compiled nvidia drivers hundreds of times over the years without any
failures.
The fact that you needed to "compile nvidia drivers hundreds of times" is very telling. Why didn't you compile grep hundreds of times too? Wait, it seems you like gentoo. I here they compile everything...
 Probably only dozens of times with 64-bit.  (But Gentoo
provides scripts to do the building, so I don't have to worry much about
configuring before compiling -- it happens mostly automagically.)
Oh everybody provides script to do the building. I don't mind that. It's when the scripts fail. Now that I mind! And that I've hit! More than required.
I know that I have to compile sound drivers into the kernel and I
have to compile vmware into the kernel. A new kernel will come out
and update and then vmware and sound screw up requiring me to run a
pretty non-standard build for the sound card. Vmware used to be
pretty horrible too often with compile failures and the like. Luckily
it's much better now in that you only need to run vmplayer, it senses
that it needs to recompile and does so usually pretty flawlessly
lately.
ITYM "compile against the kernel" instead of "compile into the
kernel".  A new kernel means compiling all the modules that are going
to be used with it.  I'd guess Ubuntu compiles them for you, and they
are updated along with the kernel, except for the modules that are
giving you trouble.
See above. Why should I have to do anything other than install (and patch) a piece of software?
And none of this changes the fact that the Minimize To Tray extension
is broken on 64 bit Linux. --
AFAICT from AMO, it's not available for non-Windows OSes.
"MinimizeToTray revived" works for me.

<https://addons.mozilla.org/thunderbird/addon/minimizetotray-revived>
That's what I was using. It's not working. There is no icon in the tray when I iconify or close TB. Note TB is still running, but there is no "tray" in "MinimizeToTray". IIRC MinimizeToTray also gave  you an icon indicating that you have mail (cept it seemed to get it wrong by showing you not only the count of unread mail in Inbox but in all NNTP feeds too - not good!). None of that is happening. Instead I need to "run" TB again from a launcher and TB figures out "Hey I was already running" and pops up the hidden TB instance. That's not how "MinimizeToTray (Revived) used to work.
--
Andrew DeFaria
I've always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific.

_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Minimize to tray for Linux and TB 11.0

»Q«
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:09:24 -0700
Andrew DeFaria <[hidden email]> wrote:

> But regardless of "compiled into" or "compiled against" (you're
> right, I guess they are just compiled against the kernel) it always
> makes me scratch my head and wonder why I need to do "extra stuff"
> like compiling against the kernel for this particular piece of
> software? I mean I don't have "compile against the kernel" Open
> Office, or Banshee or Nautilus for example. Why must I for this
> software?

Because Debian supports free software, and all the other examples
you've given are free software.  And because Ubuntu is Debian based,
and the Ubuntu people have made pretty much the same decisions about
free software.

> The fact that you needed to "compile nvidia drivers hundreds of
> times" is very telling. Why didn't you compile grep hundreds of times
> too?

I don't think new versions of grep come as frequently as
nvidia-drivers, but I'm sure I've compiled it many times, most recently
a couple of months ago.

> Wait, it seems you like gentoo. I here they compile everything...

Well, most of the nvidia drivers packages is a binary blob;  only the
little bit of source that glues it to the kernel gets compiled.  There
are Gentoo binary packages for a few bigger projects, such as
libreoffice, firefox, and chromium, but we do compile most things.

> Oh everybody provides script to do the building. I don't mind that.

AFAICT you've been using the script nVidia provides, which doesn't work
very well on several distros.  Some distros provide binaries built for
the distro, some distros provide build scripts specific to the distro,
and some don't provide either.  You've chosen a distro that doesn't.

> It's when the scripts fail. Now that I mind! And that I've hit! More
> than required.

I don't understand your use of "required" there.

> Why should I have to do anything other than install (and patch) a
> piece of software?

You don't.  You can do whatever you want to.  No one has provided you
with an easy way to make Ubuntu work with Compiz on your hardware;  no
one owed you that, did they?  You can do whatever it takes to make it
work, or not;  you don't *have to*.

>> <https://addons.mozilla.org/thunderbird/addon/minimizetotray-revived>
>
> That's what I was using. It's not working. There is no icon in the
> tray when I iconify or close TB. Note TB is still running, but there
> is no "tray" in "MinimizeToTray".

You said you one extension wasn't working for you, now it turns out
it's a different extension that doesn't work for you.  You declared
that the extension is "is broken on 64 bit Linux", which isn't
generally true -- it works for me.  I'm not following the thread in the
support group, but maybe this new information would be helpful there.

If I don't respond to your inevitable reply, it's because I tired of
reading the poorly formatted web pages you send to the newsgroups.
Good luck with getting those Compiz bells and whistles working, and
with minimizing Thunderbird to the tray.
_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Minimize to tray for Linux and TB 11.0

defaria
On 03/16/2012 12:10 PM, »Q« wrote:
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:09:24 -0700
Andrew DeFaria [hidden email] wrote:

But regardless of "compiled into" or "compiled against" (you're
right, I guess they are just compiled against the kernel) it always
makes me scratch my head and wonder why I need to do "extra stuff"
like compiling against the kernel for this particular piece of
software? I mean I don't have "compile against the kernel" Open
Office, or Banshee or Nautilus for example. Why must I for this
software?
Because Debian supports free software, and all the other examples
you've given are free software.  And because Ubuntu is Debian based,
and the Ubuntu people have made pretty much the same decisions about
free software.
Say what? Who cares if it's free software or not (BTW I didn't pay anything for the Nvidia driver from Nividia. In my mind that's free!). The point is I shouldn't have to do anything different for this piece of software.
The fact that you needed to "compile nvidia drivers hundreds of
times" is very telling. Why didn't you compile grep hundreds of times
too?
I don't think new versions of grep come as frequently as
nvidia-drivers, but I'm sure I've compiled it many times, most recently
a couple of months ago.
Don't be a brick. You know what I'm saying.
Wait, it seems you like gentoo. I here they compile everything...
Well, most of the nvidia drivers packages is a binary blob;  only the
little bit of source that glues it to the kernel gets compiled.  There
are Gentoo binary packages for a few bigger projects, such as
libreoffice, firefox, and chromium, but we do compile most things.

Oh everybody provides script to do the building. I don't mind that.
AFAICT you've been using the script nVidia provides, which doesn't work
very well on several distros.  Some distros provide binaries built for
the distro, some distros provide build scripts specific to the distro,
and some don't provide either.  You've chosen a distro that doesn't.
But it doesn't for very specific things and it shouldn't.
It's when the scripts fail. Now that I mind! And that I've hit! More
than required.
I don't understand your use of "required" there.
My use of required is mean to read as "It should never be required". Therefore having to compile it even once qualifies as "more than required".
Why should I have to do anything other than install (and patch) a
piece of software?
You don't.
But yes I do.
You can do whatever you want to. 
I always do whatever I want.
No one has provided you with an easy way to make Ubuntu work with Compiz on your hardware;
Yeah that's the problem.
novone owed you that, did they?  
Did I say anybody owed me that? No I didn't.
You can do whatever it takes to make it
work, or not;  you don't *have to*.
Now you're playing silly word semantics...
<https://addons.mozilla.org/thunderbird/addon/minimizetotray-revived>
That's what I was using. It's not working. There is no icon in the
tray when I iconify or close TB. Note TB is still running, but there
is no "tray" in "MinimizeToTray".
You said you one extension wasn't working for you, now it turns out
it's a different extension that doesn't work for you. 
No, check the subject. I said Minimize to tray was not working for me.
You declared that the extension is "is broken on 64 bit Linux", which isn't
generally true
From my viewpoint it is true.
 -- it works for me.  I'm not following the thread in the
support group, but maybe this new information would be helpful there.

If I don't respond to your inevitable reply, it's because I tired of
reading the poorly formatted web pages you send to the newsgroups.
Great then don't read 'em. Yours are pretty poorly formatted too but at least I don't bitch about it.
Good luck with getting those Compiz bells and whistles working, and
with minimizing Thunderbird to the tray.


--
Andrew DeFaria
Why do they report power outages on TV?

_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Minimize to tray for Linux and TB 11.0

»Q«
On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 00:12:56 -0700
Andrew DeFaria <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Because Debian supports free software, and all the other examples
>> you've given are free software.  And because Ubuntu is Debian based,
>> and the Ubuntu people have made pretty much the same decisions about
>> free software.

> Say what? Who cares if it's free software or not

The people who design and work on Debian and Ubuntu, going back to the
foundings of each project.

> My use of required is mean to read as "It should never be required".

Your confusion between "is" and "should be" seems to be preventing much
from sinking in.

>> You can do whatever you want to.
>
> I always do whatever I want.

I thought you wanted to make Compiz work under Ubuntu and couldn't
do what you wanted.  I'm glad that turns out not to be the case, but it
leaves little explanation for all the whining that's been going on.
_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Minimize to tray for Linux and TB 11.0

clay-14
In reply to this post by defaria
On 03/17/2012 12:12 AM, Andrew DeFaria wrote:

> On 03/16/2012 12:10 PM, »Q« wrote:
>>  On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:09:24 -0700
>>  Andrew DeFaria<[hidden email]>   wrote:
>>
>>>  But regardless of "compiled into" or "compiled against" (you're
>>>  right, I guess they are just compiled against the kernel) it always
>>>  makes me scratch my head and wonder why I need to do "extra stuff"
>>>  like compiling against the kernel for this particular piece of
>>>  software? I mean I don't have "compile against the kernel" Open
>>>  Office, or Banshee or Nautilus for example. Why must I for this
>>>  software?
>>  Because Debian supports free software, and all the other examples
>>  you've given are free software.  And because Ubuntu is Debian based,
>>  and the Ubuntu people have made pretty much the same decisions about
>>  free software.
> Say what? Who cares if it's free software or not (BTW I didn't pay anything for
> the Nvidia driver from Nividia. In my mind that's free!)...

Free, but not open source. Hence the 'Proprietary' tag.

I had one incarnation of Ubuntu on my MythTV PVR that would puke the
Nvidia drivers every kernel upgrade.
Because of some wackiness in that release of Ubuntu the fallback VGA
wouldn't load either.
Black screen. No cursor or TTY...
Kernel (and Nvidia) updates would all be done via SSH.
Whenever I'd update my beater box I'd have to plug in a keyboard/mouse
to the PVR and SSH into it to run.
_______________________________________________
general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/general