Re: Handles? Grips? What are these?

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Re: Handles? Grips? What are these?

John Chambers
gwtc wrote:

> Martyn B Tindall wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 00:56:29 -0400, Chris Ilias <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> P.S. These newsgroups are not for user support.
>>
>> I hate to ask, but what ARE they for, then?
>>
> The newsgroups listed under news://news.mozilla.org are for developers
> only.

This is puzzling.  I'm reading this newsgroup (netscape.public.mozilla.general),
but it's not coming from news.mozilla.org.  It's coming from news.speakeasy.net.
Is speakeasy improperly propagating a private newsgroup?  I don't see any clue
anywhere that this newsgroup is supposed to be private or developers-only.
The name includes "public" and "general", which strongly implies that it's
intended for general questions from the public.

Also, pretty much all of the 90,000+ messages here seem to be your basic
"How do I do FOO?" type questions.  A quick look through the most recent
100 or so messages doesn't turn up any that look like "developer" questions.

(Actually, I do have some lists from news.mozilla.org, and it includes the
same newsgroup - with exactly the same message count.  So maybe I should
just unsubscribe from both, and go looking for the /support/ groups.)
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Re: Handles? Grips? What are these?

John Chambers
gwtc wrote:

> The newsgroups listed under news://news.mozilla.org are for developers
> only.
>
> For end user support newsgroups they are located here:

OK; I found the newsgroup list mentioned earlier, and it says:

Newsgroups
---------------------------
Netscape hosts some user self-support newsgroups on a secure server. ...
     * General issues: netscape.mozilla.user.general

So this newsgroup ("netscape.public.mozilla.general on news.mozilla.org)
is described as a "user self-support newsgroup", for "General issues".

What sort of twisted reading could make a reader think that this
describes a developer-only newsgroup?

Maybe the folks at www.mozilla.org should look at this listing, and
modify it so that people who believe what it says don't get chided for
using a newsgroup for its stated purpose.

Or maybe not use words like "public" and "general" in the name of
a newsgroup intended for developers only.
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Re: Handles? Grips? What are these?

Chris Ilias
_John Chambers_ spoke thusly:
> OK; I found the newsgroup list mentioned earlier, and it says:
>
> Newsgroups
> ---------------------------
> Netscape hosts some user self-support newsgroups on a secure server. ...
>     * General issues: netscape.mozilla.user.general
>
> So this newsgroup ("netscape.public.mozilla.general on news.mozilla.org)
> is described as a "user self-support newsgroup", for "General issues".

Hehe. Look at the newsgroup names again.
netscape.mozilla.user.general
netscape.public.mozilla.general
;-)

I read somewhere that the average person primarily looks at the first
and last letters of a word, and if there's a misspelling in between, it
usually isn't noticed. I guess the same type of theory applies to the
above. :-)
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Netscape/Mozilla Links <http://ilias.ca>
Mozilla Help <http://mozillahelp.com>
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Re: Handles? Grips? What are these?

Chris Ilias
In reply to this post by John Chambers
_John Chambers_ spoke thusly:

> This is puzzling.  I'm reading this newsgroup
> (netscape.public.mozilla.general),
> but it's not coming from news.mozilla.org.  It's coming from
> news.speakeasy.net.
> Is speakeasy improperly propagating a private newsgroup?  I don't see
> any clue
> anywhere that this newsgroup is supposed to be private or developers-only.
> The name includes "public" and "general", which strongly implies that it's
> intended for general questions from the public.
>
> Also, pretty much all of the 90,000+ messages here seem to be your basic
> "How do I do FOO?" type questions.  A quick look through the most recent
> 100 or so messages doesn't turn up any that look like "developer"
> questions.
>
> (Actually, I do have some lists from news.mozilla.org, and it includes the
> same newsgroup - with exactly the same message count.  So maybe I should
> just unsubscribe from both, and go looking for the /support/ groups.)

Most of it is explained in these three URLs:
http://www.mozilla.org/community/developer-forums.html
http://www.mozilla.org/support/#newsgroups
http://ilias.ca/blog/2005/04/history-of-mozilla-newsgroups.html
--
Chris Ilias - Mozilla Champion
Netscape/Mozilla Links <http://ilias.ca>
Mozilla Help <http://mozillahelp.com>
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Re: Handles? Grips? What are these?

gwtc
Chris Ilias wrote:

> _John Chambers_ spoke thusly:
>
>> This is puzzling.  I'm reading this newsgroup
>> (netscape.public.mozilla.general),
>> but it's not coming from news.mozilla.org.  It's coming from
>> news.speakeasy.net.
>> Is speakeasy improperly propagating a private newsgroup?  I don't see
>> any clue
>> anywhere that this newsgroup is supposed to be private or
>> developers-only.
>> The name includes "public" and "general", which strongly implies that
>> it's
>> intended for general questions from the public.
>>
>> Also, pretty much all of the 90,000+ messages here seem to be your basic
>> "How do I do FOO?" type questions.  A quick look through the most recent
>> 100 or so messages doesn't turn up any that look like "developer"
>> questions.
>>
>> (Actually, I do have some lists from news.mozilla.org, and it includes
>> the
>> same newsgroup - with exactly the same message count.  So maybe I should
>> just unsubscribe from both, and go looking for the /support/ groups.)
>
>
> Most of it is explained in these three URLs:
> http://www.mozilla.org/community/developer-forums.html
> http://www.mozilla.org/support/#newsgroups
> http://ilias.ca/blog/2005/04/history-of-mozilla-newsgroups.html
Excuse me Chris, but most of the end-users here didn't come from the
Mozilla website.  They came from doing a search on their news-server
or even at google groups.  They see the word public and just assumes
its for the general public.  The newsgroups on the news.mozilla.org
servers are available through the various general usenet servers.
Since they didn't find these newsgroups from the website, then how are
they to know that this newsgroup is for developers only.  Since the
newsgroups on the secnews.netscape.com are on a separate server, they
can't find it from the general usenet servers.  The only way they find
it is if someone told them about it, or they read it on the Mozilla
website.
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Re: Handles? Grips? What are these?

Chris Ilias
_gwtc_ spoke thusly:

> Excuse me Chris, but most of the end-users here didn't come from the
> Mozilla website.  They came from doing a search on their news-server or
> even at google groups.  They see the word public and just assumes its
> for the general public.  The newsgroups on the news.mozilla.org servers
> are available through the various general usenet servers. Since they
> didn't find these newsgroups from the website, then how are they to know
> that this newsgroup is for developers only.  Since the newsgroups on the
> secnews.netscape.com are on a separate server, they can't find it from
> the general usenet servers.  The only way they find it is if someone
> told them about it, or they read it on the Mozilla website.

Yes, I know.
--
Chris Ilias - Mozilla Champion
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Mozilla Help <http://mozillahelp.com>
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Re: Handles? Grips? What are these?

Leonidas Jones
In reply to this post by gwtc
gwtc wrote:

> Chris Ilias wrote:
>
>> _John Chambers_ spoke thusly:
>>
>>> This is puzzling.  I'm reading this newsgroup
>>> (netscape.public.mozilla.general),
>>> but it's not coming from news.mozilla.org.  It's coming from
>>> news.speakeasy.net.
>>> Is speakeasy improperly propagating a private newsgroup?  I don't see
>>> any clue
>>> anywhere that this newsgroup is supposed to be private or
>>> developers-only.
>>> The name includes "public" and "general", which strongly implies that
>>> it's
>>> intended for general questions from the public.
>>>
>>> Also, pretty much all of the 90,000+ messages here seem to be your basic
>>> "How do I do FOO?" type questions.  A quick look through the most recent
>>> 100 or so messages doesn't turn up any that look like "developer"
>>> questions.
>>>
>>> (Actually, I do have some lists from news.mozilla.org, and it
>>> includes the
>>> same newsgroup - with exactly the same message count.  So maybe I should
>>> just unsubscribe from both, and go looking for the /support/ groups.)
>>
>>
>> Most of it is explained in these three URLs:
>> http://www.mozilla.org/community/developer-forums.html
>> http://www.mozilla.org/support/#newsgroups
>> http://ilias.ca/blog/2005/04/history-of-mozilla-newsgroups.html
> Excuse me Chris, but most of the end-users here didn't come from the
> Mozilla website.  They came from doing a search on their news-server or
> even at google groups.  They see the word public and just assumes its
> for the general public.  The newsgroups on the news.mozilla.org servers
> are available through the various general usenet servers. Since they
> didn't find these newsgroups from the website, then how are they to know
> that this newsgroup is for developers only.  Since the newsgroups on the
> secnews.netscape.com are on a separate server, they can't find it from
> the general usenet servers.  The only way they find it is if someone
> told them about it, or they read it on the Mozilla website.

It would be really nice if we could avoid getting into the whole naming
debate again.  I don't think that there is any question that the use of
the word public, for groups that were designed for developer use, is
confusing.

The fact that they are distributed on Usenet, I believe to make them
more easily available to developers, also leads end users to find them
more easily then the actual user support groups on the secnews server.

It is also true that the vast majority of developers have abandoned a
number of the groups, due to them being choked with end user questions,
making them nearly useless for developer discussion.  This is one of them.

Still, it is true that the groups in the netscape.public hierarchy are
intended for developers, and, at least until the new user groups go
live, its the secnews.netscape.mozilla.user hierarchy that are intended
for end users.

Lee
--
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Re: Handles? Grips? What are these?

Marc Wilson-2
In reply to this post by John Chambers
In netscape.public.mozilla.general,  (John Chambers) wrote in
<djbjtf$[hidden email]>::

>gwtc wrote:
>
>> The newsgroups listed under news://news.mozilla.org are for developers
>> only.
>>
>> For end user support newsgroups they are located here:
>
>OK; I found the newsgroup list mentioned earlier, and it says:
>
>Newsgroups
>---------------------------
>Netscape hosts some user self-support newsgroups on a secure server. ...
>     * General issues: netscape.mozilla.user.general
>
>So this newsgroup ("netscape.public.mozilla.general on news.mozilla.org)
>is described as a "user self-support newsgroup", for "General issues".
>
>What sort of twisted reading could make a reader think that this
>describes a developer-only newsgroup?
>
>Maybe the folks at www.mozilla.org should look at this listing, and
>modify it so that people who believe what it says don't get chided for
>using a newsgroup for its stated purpose.
>
>Or maybe not use words like "public" and "general" in the name of
>a newsgroup intended for developers only.

If they don't want it widely seen, they should not propagate it.  I pick up
from news.individual.net - I've never connected to a netscape/mozilla
server for any news.
--
Marc

Credit card (n) - a laminated loan shark.
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Re: Handles? Grips? What are these?

Chris Ilias
_Marc Wilson_ spoke thusly:
> If they don't want it widely seen, they should not propagate it.  I pick up
> from news.individual.net - I've never connected to a netscape/mozilla
> server for any news.

I'm surprised at how many people are not reading the rest of this
thread. :-(
As I've already posted, it is all explained here:
http://ilias.ca/blog/2005/04/history-of-mozilla-newsgroups.html
--
Chris Ilias - Mozilla Champion
Netscape/Mozilla Links <http://ilias.ca>
Mozilla Help <http://mozillahelp.com>
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