Re: Before I try thunderbird as a readerI need to know what are the kill file features are like.

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Re: Before I try thunderbird as a readerI need to know what are the kill file features are like.

Chris Ilias-2
On 10/21/07 6:30 AM, _John_ spoke thusly:
> These are moderated newsgroups, I've seen other people taken to task for
> less, but I have never seen anybody take him to task, says a lot really.

[cross-posted to the mozilla.general newsgroup, and replies are set to
go there.]

According to the message removal policy [1], we are supposed to address
issues privately. If you've seen anything in public, regarding warning
certain posters, it's the warned poster making it public, not the
off-topic message monitoring team.

I would also like to reiterate that replying to trolls, without taking
it to private email or mozilla.general, is considered an OT post as
well. As I said earlier in this thread, if you have a problem with
someone violating those rules, please don't hesitate to report it to
[hidden email].

[1]<http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>
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Re: Before I try thunderbird as a readerI need to know what are the kill file features are like.

Herb-2
On 21.10.2007 20:30 UK Time, Chris Ilias wrote:

> I would also like to reiterate that replying to trolls, without taking
> it to private email or mozilla.general, is considered an OT post as
> well. As I said earlier in this thread, if you have a problem with
> someone violating those rules, please don't hesitate to report it to
> [hidden email].
>
> [1]<http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>

Thanks for the link.

The trouble is that the in my view totally inappropriate and
unacceptable foul language consistently used by the troll in question
doesn't appear to be mentioned in the Ground Rules, or am I missing
something?

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Re: Before I try thunderbird as a readerI need to know what are the kill file features are like.

Tom Liotta-2
Herb wrote:

> The trouble is that the in my view totally inappropriate and
> unacceptable foul language consistently used by the troll in question
> doesn't appear to be mentioned in the Ground Rules, or am I missing
> something?

IMO, what's missing is that your opinion of what's inappropriate and
unacceptable is invalid here. I.e., this is open to everyone and is
moderated (monitored and controlled). It is _only_ the opinions of
those who moderate that counts in the end. While they will almost
certainly take opinions of subscribers into account, it is not an
absolute requirement.

IOW, it hardly matters what _you_ think is inappropriate or
unacceptable.

Further, my opinion is the opposite of yours on this particular
matter. As such, we stand a chance of canceling each other out. I
wanted to get that statement into this in order that my following
statements are not misunderstood.

With that said, in my opinion, the noted language and behavior was
"childish". The poster in question seems not to be monitored by
parents. I'd like to think that the behavior and language will ease
up some as maturity comes, but I won't hold my breath. Maturity
might be years away.

I have no personal problem with the language myself. I agree that
the actual problem is within those who are offended rather than in
the language used. But the repeated usage of such language in an
open forum is where "childish" comes into the discussion. It is
"childish" by definition.

It indicates an immature level of consideration for others.

As with any society or community, individuals come in all shades
across any metric you can think of. Some can handle all words
without difficulty; others will be offended by various certain
words. That range simply comes out of the unique experiences of all
individuals. Someone who's offended can't be blamed for being only
partially trained in how to react to mere 'symbols'.

But then, someone who's unable to feel social consideration for
those who can't take 'bad words' is just as far back on a maturity
scale. (This assumes that there isn't some actual physical flaw in
the brain, of course.)

As I implied earlier, I regularly use the same words from earlier in
this thread in similar ways. But I've learned to recognize that I'm
in a "society". I've learned that I can cause discomfort to someone
else just by uttering or writing 'bad words'. So, I don't do it in
public forums precisely because they are public.

I've grown up enough to see that 'consideration of others' is a
valid societal value.

I've also grown up enough to begin seeing references to giving
notification to moderators as an analogy to "I'm telling your mom!"
(I suppose if you actually _know_ this one's mom...?) IMO, a more
mature approach would be through a form of peer pressure.

A 'troll' is little more than someone attempting either to disrupt a
community or to become a peer through language or behavior that
startles. In either case, the advice not to 'feed a troll' seems
appropriate.

Even a child trying to gain an identity by using 'grownup words' can
be treated in such a way. "Do not feed the attempt by issuing
feedback." And perhaps that's all that's needed to start that last
growth to maturity in this case.

IMO, of course. Not that 'MO' makes any difference here.

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Re: Before I try thunderbird as a readerI need to know what are the kill file features are like.

Chris Ilias-2
In reply to this post by Herb-2
On 10/22/07 1:00 AM, _Herb_ spoke thusly:

> On 21.10.2007 20:30 UK Time, Chris Ilias wrote:
>
>> I would also like to reiterate that replying to trolls, without taking
>> it to private email or mozilla.general, is considered an OT post as
>> well. As I said earlier in this thread, if you have a problem with
>> someone violating those rules, please don't hesitate to report it to
>> [hidden email].
>>
>> [1]<http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>
>
> Thanks for the link.
>
> The trouble is that the in my view totally inappropriate and
> unacceptable foul language consistently used by the troll in question
> doesn't appear to be mentioned in the Ground Rules, or am I missing
> something?

That's correct. We only monitor OT posts and trolls.
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Re: Before I try thunderbird as a readerI need to know what are the kill file features are like.

Irwin Greenwald-4
In reply to this post by Tom Liotta-2
On 10/22/2007 Tom Liotta wrote:
> IMO, what's missing is that your opinion of what's inappropriate and
> unacceptable is invalid here. I.e., this is open to everyone and is
> moderated (monitored and controlled). It is _only_ the opinions of
> those who moderate that counts in the end. While they will almost
> certainly take opinions of subscribers into account, it is not an
> absolute requirement.
>
It is my understanding that the support newsgroups are "moderated" only
for on/off topic.

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Re: Before I try thunderbird as a readerI need to know what are the kill file features are like.

Jay Garcia
On 22.10.2007 22:33, Irwin Greenwald wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> On 10/22/2007 Tom Liotta wrote:
>> IMO, what's missing is that your opinion of what's inappropriate and
>> unacceptable is invalid here. I.e., this is open to everyone and is
>> moderated (monitored and controlled). It is _only_ the opinions of
>> those who moderate that counts in the end. While they will almost
>> certainly take opinions of subscribers into account, it is not an
>> absolute requirement.


> It is my understanding that the support newsgroups are "moderated" only
> for on/off topic.

They are. However, Andrew continues to be OT against policy and
continues to remove the f'ups hence keeping the replies in the original
thread. But it's "ok" to use foul language and disgusting condescending
remarks.

Jay
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Re: Before I try thunderbird as a readerI need to know what are the kill file features are like.

Chris Ilias-2
On 10/23/07 12:21 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
> They are. However, Andrew continues to be OT against policy and
> continues to remove the f'ups hence keeping the replies in the original
> thread. But it's "ok" to use foul language and disgusting condescending
> remarks.

The address you used, in your message to me keeps bouncing.

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Re: Before I try thunderbird as a readerI need to know what are the kill file features are like.

Terry R.
On 10/23/2007 10:07 AM On a whim, Chris Ilias pounded out on the keyboard

> On 10/23/07 12:21 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>> They are. However, Andrew continues to be OT against policy and
>> continues to remove the f'ups hence keeping the replies in the original
>> thread. But it's "ok" to use foul language and disgusting condescending
>> remarks.
>
> The address you used, in your message to me keeps bouncing.
>

Did you remove NOSPAM? ;-)

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Re: Before I try thunderbird as a readerI need to know what are the kill file features are like.

Chris Ilias-2
On 10/23/07 1:38 PM, _Terry R._ spoke thusly:

> On 10/23/2007 10:07 AM On a whim, Chris Ilias pounded out on the keyboard
>
>> On 10/23/07 12:21 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>>> They are. However, Andrew continues to be OT against policy and
>>> continues to remove the f'ups hence keeping the replies in the original
>>> thread. But it's "ok" to use foul language and disgusting condescending
>>> remarks.
>>
>> The address you used, in your message to me keeps bouncing.
>>
>
> Did you remove NOSPAM? ;-)

That's not the address he used in his message to me. I also tried the
address he uses here (without NOSPAM) yesterday, and that bounced as well.

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Re: Before I try thunderbird as a readerI need to know what are the kill file features are like.

Herb-2
On 23.10.2007 18:45 UK Time, Chris Ilias wrote:

> On 10/23/07 1:38 PM, _Terry R._ spoke thusly:
>> On 10/23/2007 10:07 AM On a whim, Chris Ilias pounded out on the keyboard
>>
>>> On 10/23/07 12:21 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>>>> They are. However, Andrew continues to be OT against policy and
>>>> continues to remove the f'ups hence keeping the replies in the original
>>>> thread. But it's "ok" to use foul language and disgusting condescending
>>>> remarks.
>>>
>>> The address you used, in your message to me keeps bouncing.
>>>
>>
>> Did you remove NOSPAM? ;-)
>
> That's not the address he used in his message to me. I also tried the
> address he uses here (without NOSPAM) yesterday, and that bounced as well.
>

What did he say? :-)

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Re: Before I try thunderbird as a readerI need to know what are the kill file features are like.

Chris Ilias-2
On 10/23/07 1:58 PM, _Herb_ spoke thusly:

> On 23.10.2007 18:45 UK Time, Chris Ilias wrote:
>> On 10/23/07 1:38 PM, _Terry R._ spoke thusly:
>>> On 10/23/2007 10:07 AM On a whim, Chris Ilias pounded out on the
>>> keyboard
>>>
>>>> On 10/23/07 12:21 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>>>>> They are. However, Andrew continues to be OT against policy and
>>>>> continues to remove the f'ups hence keeping the replies in the
>>>>> original
>>>>> thread. But it's "ok" to use foul language and disgusting
>>>>> condescending
>>>>> remarks.
>>>>
>>>> The address you used, in your message to me keeps bouncing.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Did you remove NOSPAM? ;-)
>>
>> That's not the address he used in his message to me. I also tried the
>> address he uses here (without NOSPAM) yesterday, and that bounced as
>> well.
>>
>
> What did he say? :-)

What did who say?

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Re: Before I try thunderbird as a readerI need to know what are the kill file features are like.

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
On 23.10.2007 12:07, Chris Ilias wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> On 10/23/07 12:21 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>> They are. However, Andrew continues to be OT against policy and
>> continues to remove the f'ups hence keeping the replies in the original
>> thread. But it's "ok" to use foul language and disgusting condescending
>> remarks.
>
> The address you used, in your message to me keeps bouncing.
>

Use [hidden email]

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Re: Before I try thunderbird as a readerI need to know what are the kill file features are like.

Chris Ilias-2
On 10/23/07 11:45 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:

> On 23.10.2007 12:07, Chris Ilias wrote:
>
>  --- Original Message ---
>
>> On 10/23/07 12:21 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>>> They are. However, Andrew continues to be OT against policy and
>>> continues to remove the f'ups hence keeping the replies in the original
>>> thread. But it's "ok" to use foul language and disgusting condescending
>>> remarks.
>> The address you used, in your message to me keeps bouncing.
>>
>
> Use [hidden email]

Still bounces.

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Re: Before I try thunderbird as a readerI need to know what are the kill file features are like.

Jay Garcia
On 23.10.2007 23:38, Chris Ilias wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> On 10/23/07 11:45 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>> On 23.10.2007 12:07, Chris Ilias wrote:
>>
>>  --- Original Message ---
>>
>>> On 10/23/07 12:21 PM, _Jay Garcia_ spoke thusly:
>>>> They are. However, Andrew continues to be OT against policy and
>>>> continues to remove the f'ups hence keeping the replies in the original
>>>> thread. But it's "ok" to use foul language and disgusting condescending
>>>> remarks.
>>> The address you used, in your message to me keeps bouncing.
>>>
>>
>> Use [hidden email]
>
> Still bounces.
>

Hmmm, I'll look into it, maybe something about your IP block, dunno as I
don't have any filters set up on propeller mail.

Try again to that address.


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Re: Before I try thunderbird as a readerI need to know what are the kill file features are like.

Herb-2
In reply to this post by Tom Liotta-2
On 23.10.2007 02:41 UK Time, Tom Liotta wrote:

> Herb wrote:
>
>> The trouble is that the in my view totally inappropriate and
>> unacceptable foul language consistently used by the troll in question
>> doesn't appear to be mentioned in the Ground Rules, or am I missing
>> something?
>
> IMO, what's missing is that your opinion of what's inappropriate and
> unacceptable is invalid here. I.e., this is open to everyone and is
> moderated (monitored and controlled). It is _only_ the opinions of those
> who moderate that counts in the end. While they will almost certainly
> take opinions of subscribers into account, it is not an absolute
> requirement.

Thanks for making me reflect further on this issue.

> IOW, it hardly matters what _you_ think is inappropriate or unacceptable.

So it appears :-(

> Further, my opinion is the opposite of yours on this particular matter.

Odd, but you are, of course, entitled to your opinion :-)

> With that said, in my opinion, the noted language and behavior was
> "childish". The poster in question seems not to be monitored by parents.
> I'd like to think that the behavior and language will ease up some as
> maturity comes, but I won't hold my breath. Maturity might be years away.

AdF has been behaving like this ever since I joined the Mozilla groups,
and I gave up any hope of emerging maturity some time ago =-O

> I have no personal problem with the language myself. I agree that the
> actual problem is within those who are offended rather than in the

If you put it like that, I don't have a *personal* problem with the
language either and I'm *not offended* as such. In fact I may even have
used language like that once or twice myself in the past;-)

But the point is that I don't do it publicly and in written form - in
fact it would be pretty stupid of me do to this bearing in mind that I
use my business website in my signature and have made several
interesting business (and personal, of course) contacts through my
presence in various newsgroups and 'professional' mailing lists.

What I am concerned about is the *reputation of Mozilla* in the sense
that newcomers to these groups may well find it a little odd to see
language like that used in what is supposed to be a technical support forum.

> language used. But the repeated usage of such language in an open forum
> is where "childish" comes into the discussion. It is "childish" by
> definition.

I'm glad we agree on that one (AdF disputed it).

> It indicates an immature level of consideration for others.

'Immature level' is one way of putting it...

> As with any society or community, individuals come in all shades across
> any metric you can think of. Some can handle all words without
> difficulty; others will be offended by various certain words. That range
> simply comes out of the unique experiences of all individuals. Someone
> who's offended can't be blamed for being only partially trained in how
> to react to mere 'symbols'.

See above - offence doesn't come into it as far as I am concerned.

> But then, someone who's unable to feel social consideration for those
> who can't take 'bad words' is just as far back on a maturity scale.
> (This assumes that there isn't some actual physical flaw in the brain,
> of course.)

“There’s enough material here for an entire conference,” as the
psychiatrist said in Fawlty Towers
(<http://www.fawltysite.net/episode08.htm>) :-)

> As I implied earlier, I regularly use the same words from earlier in
> this thread in similar ways. But I've learned to recognize that I'm in a
> "society". I've learned that I can cause discomfort to someone else just
> by uttering or writing 'bad words'. So, I don't do it in public forums
> precisely because they are public.

Exactly. See above.

> I've grown up enough to see that 'consideration of others' is a valid
> societal value.

I couldn't agree more.

> I've also grown up enough to begin seeing references to giving
> notification to moderators as an analogy to "I'm telling your mom!" (I
> suppose if you actually _know_ this one's mom...?) IMO, a more mature
> approach would be through a form of peer pressure.

AdF seems immune to peer pressure, in fact he seems to have an
astonishing capacity for developing an equal or greater amount of
counterpressure =-O

> A 'troll' is little more than someone attempting either to disrupt a
> community or to become a peer through language or behavior that
> startles. In either case, the advice not to 'feed a troll' seems
> appropriate.

Indeed, and I said I would.

> Even a child trying to gain an identity by using 'grownup words' can be
> treated in such a way. "Do not feed the attempt by issuing feedback."
> And perhaps that's all that's needed to start that last growth to
> maturity in this case.

Let's hope so, although I seriously doubt it.

> IMO, of course. Not that 'MO' makes any difference here.

Thanks anyway for sharing your thoughts.

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Re: Before I try thunderbird as a readerI need to know what are the kill file features are like.

Herb-2
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
On 23.10.2007 03:17 UK Time, Chris Ilias wrote:

> On 10/22/07 1:00 AM, _Herb_ spoke thusly:
>> On 21.10.2007 20:30 UK Time, Chris Ilias wrote:
>>
>>> I would also like to reiterate that replying to trolls, without
>>> taking it to private email or mozilla.general, is considered an OT
>>> post as well. As I said earlier in this thread, if you have a problem
>>> with someone violating those rules, please don't hesitate to report
>>> it to [hidden email].
>>>
>>> [1]<http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>
>>
>> Thanks for the link.
>>
>> The trouble is that the in my view totally inappropriate and
>> unacceptable foul language consistently used by the troll in question
>> doesn't appear to be mentioned in the Ground Rules, or am I missing
>> something?
>
> That's correct. We only monitor OT posts and trolls.

Perhaps you should consider introducing another category for AdF if he
doesn't fit into the troll category ;-)

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Re: Before I try thunderbird as a readerI need to know what are the kill file features are like.

Herb-2
In reply to this post by Irwin Greenwald-4
On 23.10.2007 04:33 UK Time, Irwin Greenwald wrote:

> On 10/22/2007 Tom Liotta wrote:
>> IMO, what's missing is that your opinion of what's inappropriate and
>> unacceptable is invalid here. I.e., this is open to everyone and is
>> moderated (monitored and controlled). It is _only_ the opinions of
>> those who moderate that counts in the end. While they will almost
>> certainly take opinions of subscribers into account, it is not an
>> absolute requirement.
>>
> It is my understanding that the support newsgroups are "moderated" only
> for on/off topic.

Pity there isn't a 'damaging Mozilla's reputation' or similar category -
see my earlier reply to Tom.

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Re: Before I try thunderbird as a readerI need to know what are the kill file features are like.

Herb-2
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
On 23.10.2007 17:21 UK Time, Jay Garcia wrote:

> They are. However, Andrew continues to be OT against policy and
> continues to remove the f'ups hence keeping the replies in the original
> thread. But it's "ok" to use foul language and disgusting condescending
> remarks.

Apparently so. I still think it's a pity.

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Re: Before I try thunderbird as a readerI need to know what are the kill file features are like.

Jay Garcia
On 24.10.2007 10:29, Herb wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> On 23.10.2007 17:21 UK Time, Jay Garcia wrote:
>
>> They are. However, Andrew continues to be OT against policy and
>> continues to remove the f'ups hence keeping the replies in the original
>> thread. But it's "ok" to use foul language and disgusting condescending
>> remarks.
>
> Apparently so. I still think it's a pity.
>

What I meant by "ok" didn't mean that it's OK but rather ok by the way
the policy is written and/or enforced. I should have said it a different
way I realize.

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Re: Before I try thunderbird as a readerI need to know what are the kill file features are like.

Herb-2
On 24.10.2007 16:45 UK Time, Jay Garcia wrote:

> On 24.10.2007 10:29, Herb wrote:
>
>  --- Original Message ---
>
>> On 23.10.2007 17:21 UK Time, Jay Garcia wrote:
>>
>>> They are. However, Andrew continues to be OT against policy and
>>> continues to remove the f'ups hence keeping the replies in the original
>>> thread. But it's "ok" to use foul language and disgusting condescending
>>> remarks.
>> Apparently so. I still think it's a pity.
>>
>
> What I meant by "ok" didn't mean that it's OK but rather ok by the way
> the policy is written and/or enforced. I should have said it a different
> way I realize.

Hi Jay,

yes, thanks, I know how you meant it.

I still think it's a pity that this aspect isn't included in the way the
policy is written and/or enforced :-)

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