Re: Acessible widgets for FIrefox / JAWS extension

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Re: Acessible widgets for FIrefox / JAWS extension

Aaron Leventhal-3
Hans,

Are you basing this on Firefox 1.5.x? Anything earlier than 1.5 would
not work well.

What does the description of each list item say? That's where we put the
info on the position of each list item in the list.

For the radiogroup, I recommend putting a groupbox around the radiogroup
and giving the groupbox a label.

There is no good documentation for nsIAccessible yet. However, you can
do some interesting things using DHTML accessibility within XUL. See
http://www.mozilla.org/access/dhtml

- Aaron


Hans Hillen wrote:

> Hi everyone
>
> I'm building a Firefox extension for blind users, which should be able to
> work together with JAWS version 7. I have a few questions though.
>
> 1. My extension contains a listbox (similiar to the JAWS link list), but for
> some reason JAWS will only count the number of visible items in the listbox.
> For instance, the list might have 100 rows, but JAWS will still say 'item 1
> of 13' because only 13 rows of the listbox are visible. How can I make this
> listbox fully accessible?
>
> 2. How can I make JAWS mention the label of a radiogroup when one of its
> radiobuttons receives focus? For instance, in the JAWS link list when you
> check the 'unvisited links only' radiobutton, JAWS will say 'display
> unvisited links only' because 'display' is the label above the radiogroup.
> How can I get JAWS to do the same for my extension?
>
> 3. I want to make more use of the nsIAccessible xpcom interface to enhance
> my extension's accesibility, but I have no idea how to use it or where to
> start. Does anyone know where I can find a good tutorial or a reference,
> besides the ones on www.xulplanet.com?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
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Re: Acessible widgets for FIrefox / JAWS extension

Hans Hillen
Hi Aaron, thanks for the reply

Yeah, I'm basing my extension on Firefox version 1.5, and testing it on
1.5.0.1. I'm creating this extension as part of my thesis research, which
deals with website navigation by blind Internet users.

The listbox I was talking about basically mimics the original linklist as
provided by JAWS for windows, only my extension will provide more advanced
functions which can hopefully improve blind navigation. So the listbox
displays a list of all links present on the currently open page (i.e. the
link's title, or the link's URL if it has no title). When the number of
links is smaller than 13 (which is the number of rows which are visible in
the listbox), JAWS will correctly mention the number (for example '1 of 8',
but when it grows higher than 13, the total number will always be 13
according to JAWS. It seems like it's just some kind of JAWS bug. Are you
suggesting I should add the number of the item position in the linkitem's
description? Cause then the user would be unable to use first-letter search
in the list, and JAWS would still mention the incorect total number (that is
when he or she has the verbosity set to beginner).

About the radiogroup problem, I already have a groupbox around the
radiogroup with a 'caption element' in it. First JAWS ignored it completely,
but after I set the '-moz-user-focus' style to 'normal' the groupbox became
part of the tab sequence order. However, this still doesn't make JAWS
associate the caption with the actual radiobuttons. For blind users it will
just sound like a label which happens to be spoken one tab before the first
radiobutton the the group. But if the user selects a specific radiobutton
with an ALT shortcut from somewhere else, JAWS will just mention the
specific label for this button, not which category it belongs to. I guess
what I need is some kind of label or title attribute for the radiogroup
itself which JAWS can pick up. But for now I'll just include the category
title in the specific buttons.

Again thanks very much for the feedback, I'm a newbie when it comes to
extension design, let alone accessible extension design. It's good to get a
response from someone who knows what he's talking about.



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Re: Acessible widgets for FIrefox / JAWS extension

Charles Chen-2
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3

> Hi everyone
>
> I'm building a Firefox extension for blind users, which should be able to
> work together with JAWS version 7. I have a few questions though.
>
> 1. My extension contains a listbox (similiar to the JAWS link list), but for
> some reason JAWS will only count the number of visible items in the listbox.
> For instance, the list might have 100 rows, but JAWS will still say 'item 1
> of 13' because only 13 rows of the listbox are visible. How can I make this
> listbox fully accessible?
>
> 2. How can I make JAWS mention the label of a radiogroup when one of its
> radiobuttons receives focus? For instance, in the JAWS link list when you
> check the 'unvisited links only' radiobutton, JAWS will say 'display
> unvisited links only' because 'display' is the label above the radiogroup.
> How can I get JAWS to do the same for my extension?


Have you examined what the MSAA is exposing to JAWS? I have had some
experience working with JAWS and from what I know, it works off the
MSAA. So if Firefox's MSAA is not exposing the right things for your
extension, you will get strange results.

I highly recommend getting the Microsoft MSAA SDK tools if you have not
done so already. This can really give you some insight as to what JAWS
is seeing on its end. You can download them for free from Microsoft
here:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=3755582A-A707-460A-BF21-1373316E13F0&displaylang=en

An alternative solution to consider is to use the speech component in my
CLC-4-TTS library (http://clc-4-tts.cjb.net/) to make your extension
self voicing, thus removing the need for any 3rd party screen reader. If
you look at the Fire Vox extension, you will see that I have created a
Fire Vox Options menu which speaks. You can use a similar technique for
your extension, and as long as you include my core TTS extension, your
extension will be self voiced.
The word "technique" may be a bit exaggerated as it's nothing more than
defining a function to be called when there is a focus event as seen
here (actual code snippet) :
<checkbox label="Echo Keys" checked="true"
id="firevoxpref-echoKeys-checkbox"
onfocus="CLC_SR_SpeakPrefUI_CheckboxFocus('firevoxpref-echoKeys-checkbox')"
/>

The CLC_SR_SpeakPrefUI_CheckboxFocus is a function that speaks the
status of the item with the id 'firevoxpref-echoKeys-checkbox'
The contents of that function can be summed up as saying the label and
then saying the status (checked or unchecked). The actual speech part is
carried out by calling my library function for voicing a string. So it's
actually quite simple.

I have all of my extensions bundled up in one extension pack on my
website for the convenience of end users; unzip the bundled xpi and you
can access the extension xpis separately. The file you will be most
interested in is the clc_firevox_pref_ui.xul file inside the Fire Vox xpi.

Why using my library might be a good idea:
1. You have full control over what is said since you are defining
exactly what is said on the various events.

2. You gain platform independence that will make your extension self
voicing on Mac and Linux (via the FreeTTS option). JAWS is fine if
you're only targetting Windows users, but if your extension is not
intrinsically linked to Windows, then why should you have to restrict it
to just that operating system.

Why using my library might not be a good idea:
1. Full control means it's a manual process for you, the developer. It
will not read your labels unless you have program it to.

2. You will have to deal with the possibility that 3rd party screen
readers may do too much for you (ie, reading something while your
extension is trying to selfvoice, resulting in two voices going on at
the same time). You may want to include a silent option in your
extension to turn off self-voicing.



-Charles
Creator of the CLC-4-TTS Suite
http://clc-4-tts.cjb.net








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Re: Acessible widgets for FIrefox / JAWS extension

Aaron Leventhal-3
In reply to this post by Hans Hillen
Hi Hans,

Great to know about your thesis research! Did you know there are others
working on similar things? I wonder if you should be working together.
For example, there is Fire Vox which has it's own speech engine and does
not require JAWS.

As far as description I mean the IAccessible (MSAA) accessible
description which is exposed for the element. You need to download the
MSAA SDK 1.3 and use the testing tools to look at each element and see
what gets exposed. The description for a list item should say something
like "3 of 15". See http://www.mozilla.org/access/windows/at-apis for
more info about how we expose MSAA info to JAWS.

Your groupbox caption should work fine without making it focusable. In
fact making it focusable is a bit odd. I'm starting to suspect that
you're not using JAWS 7.1, which has a lot of Firefox fixes.

What University are you doing your thesis research for? I ask because
Mozilla Foundation is sending students developing accessibility
extensions to CSUN. See http://www.csun.edu/cod/conf/index.htm

- Aaron




Hans Hillen wrote:

> Hi Aaron, thanks for the reply
>
> Yeah, I'm basing my extension on Firefox version 1.5, and testing it on
> 1.5.0.1. I'm creating this extension as part of my thesis research, which
> deals with website navigation by blind Internet users.
>
> The listbox I was talking about basically mimics the original linklist as
> provided by JAWS for windows, only my extension will provide more advanced
> functions which can hopefully improve blind navigation. So the listbox
> displays a list of all links present on the currently open page (i.e. the
> link's title, or the link's URL if it has no title). When the number of
> links is smaller than 13 (which is the number of rows which are visible in
> the listbox), JAWS will correctly mention the number (for example '1 of 8',
> but when it grows higher than 13, the total number will always be 13
> according to JAWS. It seems like it's just some kind of JAWS bug. Are you
> suggesting I should add the number of the item position in the linkitem's
> description? Cause then the user would be unable to use first-letter search
> in the list, and JAWS would still mention the incorect total number (that is
> when he or she has the verbosity set to beginner).
>
> About the radiogroup problem, I already have a groupbox around the
> radiogroup with a 'caption element' in it. First JAWS ignored it completely,
> but after I set the '-moz-user-focus' style to 'normal' the groupbox became
> part of the tab sequence order. However, this still doesn't make JAWS
> associate the caption with the actual radiobuttons. For blind users it will
> just sound like a label which happens to be spoken one tab before the first
> radiobutton the the group. But if the user selects a specific radiobutton
> with an ALT shortcut from somewhere else, JAWS will just mention the
> specific label for this button, not which category it belongs to. I guess
> what I need is some kind of label or title attribute for the radiogroup
> itself which JAWS can pick up. But for now I'll just include the category
> title in the specific buttons.
>
> Again thanks very much for the feedback, I'm a newbie when it comes to
> extension design, let alone accessible extension design. It's good to get a
> response from someone who knows what he's talking about.
>
>
>

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Re: Acessible widgets for FIrefox / JAWS extension

David hilbert Poehlman
In reply to this post by Charles Chen-2
I got this to work on windows, but all it seems to do so far is speak  
what I tab to.

-Charles
Creator of the CLC-4-TTS Suite
http://clc-4-tts.cjb.net








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Re: [Bulk] Re: Acessible widgets for FIrefox / JAWS extension

Jonathan Chetwynd
Firefox supports SVG natively, however this self voicing browser  
extension doesn't yet ~:"

cheers

Jonathan Chetwynd



On 7 Mar 2006, at 13:19, David Poehlman wrote:

I got this to work on windows, but all it seems to do so far is speak  
what I tab to.

-Charles
Creator of the CLC-4-TTS Suite
http://clc-4-tts.cjb.net








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Re: Acessible widgets for FIrefox / JAWS extension

Jonathan Chetwynd
In reply to this post by David hilbert Poehlman
David and Charles,

I really want to thank you both, A LOT.

I've been working with web accessibility for over eight years and  
this is the first time that I've installed something that's simple  
and works well, with no sign up or cost etc....

It's so good that I rewrote the homepage http://www.peepo.com to  
sound great when using clc4tts.

cheers!

Jonathan Chetwynd



On 7 Mar 2006, at 13:19, David Poehlman wrote:

I got this to work on windows, but all it seems to do so far is speak  
what I tab to.

-Charles
Creator of the CLC-4-TTS Suite
http://clc-4-tts.cjb.net








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Hands-On Technolog(eye)s


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Re: [Bulk] Re: Acessible widgets for FIrefox / JAWS extension

Jonathan Chetwynd
In reply to this post by David hilbert Poehlman
also works on OS X tiger, but not yet for camino

regards

Jonathan Chetwynd



On 7 Mar 2006, at 13:19, David Poehlman wrote:

I got this to work on windows, but all it seems to do so far is speak  
what I tab to.

-Charles
Creator of the CLC-4-TTS Suite
http://clc-4-tts.cjb.net








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Re: [Bulk] Re: Acessible widgets for FIrefox / JAWS extension

Aaron Leventhal-3
In reply to this post by David hilbert Poehlman
The W3C protocols and formats group is going to take a look at making
SVG accessible, whether it's used to create widgets or 2d presentations
such as diagrams. We'll be looking to use namespaced role and property
attributes most likely. Keyboard navigation is also being looked at, but
that's a wider issue being discussed in W3C right now.

- Aaron

Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:

> Firefox supports SVG natively, however this self voicing browser
> extension doesn't yet ~:"
>
> cheers
>
> Jonathan Chetwynd
>
>
>
> On 7 Mar 2006, at 13:19, David Poehlman wrote:
>
> I got this to work on windows, but all it seems to do so far is speak
> what I tab to.
>
> -Charles
> Creator of the CLC-4-TTS Suite
> http://clc-4-tts.cjb.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>
>
> --Jonnie Apple Seed
> With his:
> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>
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Re: [Bulk] Re: Acessible widgets for FIrefox / JAWS extension

Jonathan Chetwynd
Aaron,

I've asked to join the Protocol and Formats working group a number of  
times would you consider proposing or seconding me?

in the meantime, please check the SVG here: http://www.peepo.co.uk as  
it is designed for firefox, camino and ASV3 with very slightly  
different functionality. It contains some GUI RDF, something of this  
nature is likely to be essential in the near future.

the original ff keyboard navigation bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/ 
show_bug.cgi?id=259062 took some years to be resolved and by some  
miracle the developers accepted that in this instance W3C was  
retarded :-)

cheers


Jonathan Chetwynd



On 8 Mar 2006, at 19:38, Aaron Leventhal wrote:

The W3C protocols and formats group is going to take a look at making  
SVG accessible, whether it's used to create widgets or 2d  
presentations such as diagrams. We'll be looking to use namespaced  
role and property attributes most likely. Keyboard navigation is also  
being looked at, but that's a wider issue being discussed in W3C  
right now.

- Aaron

Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:

> Firefox supports SVG natively, however this self voicing browser  
> extension doesn't yet ~:"
> cheers
> Jonathan Chetwynd
> On 7 Mar 2006, at 13:19, David Poehlman wrote:
> I got this to work on windows, but all it seems to do so far is  
> speak what I tab to.
> -Charles
> Creator of the CLC-4-TTS Suite
> http://clc-4-tts.cjb.net
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
> --Jonnie Apple Seed
> With his:
> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Bulk] Re: Acessible widgets for FIrefox / JAWS extension

Aaron Leventhal-3
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
I'll send you email on this privately.

Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:

> Aaron,
>
> I've asked to join the Protocol and Formats working group a number of
> times would you consider proposing or seconding me?
>
> in the meantime, please check the SVG here: http://www.peepo.co.uk as it
> is designed for firefox, camino and ASV3 with very slightly different
> functionality. It contains some GUI RDF, something of this nature is
> likely to be essential in the near future.
>
> the original ff keyboard navigation bug
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=259062 took some years to
> be resolved and by some miracle the developers accepted that in this
> instance W3C was retarded :-)
>
> cheers
>
>
> Jonathan Chetwynd
>
>
>
> On 8 Mar 2006, at 19:38, Aaron Leventhal wrote:
>
> The W3C protocols and formats group is going to take a look at making
> SVG accessible, whether it's used to create widgets or 2d presentations
> such as diagrams. We'll be looking to use namespaced role and property
> attributes most likely. Keyboard navigation is also being looked at, but
> that's a wider issue being discussed in W3C right now.
>
> - Aaron
>
> Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:
>> Firefox supports SVG natively, however this self voicing browser
>> extension doesn't yet ~:"
>> cheers
>> Jonathan Chetwynd
>> On 7 Mar 2006, at 13:19, David Poehlman wrote:
>> I got this to work on windows, but all it seems to do so far is speak
>> what I tab to.
>> -Charles
>> Creator of the CLC-4-TTS Suite
>> http://clc-4-tts.cjb.net
>> _______________________________________________
>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>> --Jonnie Apple Seed
>> With his:
>> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
>> _______________________________________________
>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>
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Re: Acessible widgets for FIrefox / JAWS extension

Hans Hillen
In reply to this post by Charles Chen-2
(a late) thanks for all the help guys!

I installed te MSAA SDK, to see whether my listbox problem was being caused
by JAWS or not. It appeard the MSAA description for each list item is
incorrect to begin with (i.e. the total number of rows is incorrectly
described as the total of visible rows). Could this be some firefox bug?
Anyway, I changed my listbox to a custom tree and now it works fine.

I noticed some other buggy behavior regarding JAWS handling of firefox's .
For instance, the contents of window.alert() boxes are ignored (only 'OK
button' is pronounced). Also, fieldset legends are only sporadically
mentioned. This is using JAWS 7.0 and FF1.5.0.1.

As for the speech, the  CLC-4-TTS solution seems like a good idea, I'll make
my extension configurable so that the user can choose whether JAWS or the
CLC-4-TTS library to should do the talking.

My new prototype is coming along nicely, it should be presentable before
CSUN 2006.

Thanks again for the help!

Hans


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