Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Billy Holmes
Quoting "Terry R." <[hidden email]>:


> AT LEAST leave enough of the prior post so someone can tell what is
> being discussed without having to go back to the prior post again.

Sorry. I tend to get snip happy. I hate fluff.

> We were invited here and drawn away from another server.  Now we're
> being told we don't belong there.


that really sucks. it does, and I can empathize. Yet, that doesn't  
change the facts - only the outcome: what are you going to do now?

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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Terry R.
In reply to this post by Gervase Markham
On 12/7/2007 1:52 AM On a whim, Gervase Markham pounded out on the keyboard

> Terry R. wrote:
>> Great to hear from someone who has about 3 posts in the FF group and
>> about 3 from here. BIG vote.
>>
>> AND it's more negative energy than positive.
>
> If you want to weigh up votes, Justin's vote weighs quite a bit. He's an
> active project contributor and I've seen him at work.
>
> Gerv

A vote on your side, obviously. And he's admitted he hasn't followed the
issue very long, so his vote DOESN'T weigh that much here, in respect to
how he jumped in.

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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Leonidas Jones-2
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
Billy Holmes wrote:

> Quoting Jay Garcia <[hidden email]>:
>
>> that formed the group. They - the Community - continued to use the MTMM
>> in the same fashion as NTMM and now hereby is the rub and controversy
>> which is only surfacing now after being active for two years. So now you
>> can understand what all the fuss is about.
>
> so petition for a new group to be created that satisfies your wants for
> multimedia sharing - with the appropriate rules and regulations that
> satisfies GigaNews issue with sharing illegal content.
>
> Perhaps grant one of the secnews clique as moderator of this new group?
>

Well, MTMM was supposed to be that group when news.mozilla.org was
brought online. These folks came over here when they were told by Chris
I that the secnews server was to be abandoned, and that MTMM was to be
the successor group.  They came over, carried on as they had, and are
only now being told they can't

As far they knew one of the "secnews clique", Joe S, has been moderating
the group.

Lee
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Terry R.
In reply to this post by Terry R.
On 12/7/2007 7:55 AM On a whim, Billy Holmes pounded out on the keyboard

> Quoting "Terry R." <[hidden email]>:
>
>
>> AT LEAST leave enough of the prior post so someone can tell what is
>> being discussed without having to go back to the prior post again.
>
> Sorry. I tend to get snip happy. I hate fluff.
>
>> We were invited here and drawn away from another server.  Now we're
>> being told we don't belong there.
>
>
> that really sucks. it does, and I can empathize. Yet, that doesn't  
> change the facts - only the outcome: what are you going to do now?
>

Move on to where we can continue doing what we have all along.

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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Gus Richter
In reply to this post by Gervase Markham
Gervase Markham wrote:

> Gus Richter wrote:
>> The experiencing of the "atmosphere" and "goings-on" were meant not
>> only for the length of the discussion, but on-going since Chris'
>> anointment by Gerv. That's how long the problem has been festering and
>> you pretend to have a full understanding in the face of a common
>> revolt? Do the voices of the Mozilla Community (depending on your
>> definition, I guess) from all the Support Groups mean nothing?
>
> We seem to be confusing two things. Chris is the sole moderator of
> mozilla.test.multimedia.

Chris I. handed it over to JoeS.

> Chris, Nir and Q are co-moderators of the
> support groups, and for action to be taken there, at least two of them
> (and, I would hope, all three) must agree on it.

You know very well that there were only Chris I. and Nir.
You know very well that you demanded unanimity from the two.

It was evident by what you said elsewhere in this thread that you did
not know about a third ("Q") hence the conclusion is that Chris I. has
appointed "Q" on his own.

> So these claims that
> Chris is a dictator in the support groups are simply incorrect.

So I guess that this statement is incorrect also.

Please listen.

Chris Ilias has been a problem, a bur up everyones behind, for as long
as I can remember seeing his name appear in _all_ of the groups. It's
his manner of cryptic countering, seemingly meaningless and utterly
irritating. Continually twisting words around to suit his reasoning at
the time. He always needs to be right and cannot admit to being wrong. I
explained to him quite some time ago in private mail what he was doing
wrong and how he should try to change. This was regarding some gaff he
made in MTMM. His retort was that "I have earned my right as a Moz
Champ" and essentially indicated that he could do as he wanted. I
recommended that he let JoeS be the Moderator for MTMM since he was
knowledgeable in all matters re. MTMM in which Chris I. was not, to say
the least. I thought that he was changing with his appointing JoeS as
Moderator for MTMM in his place. Then he jumps in usurping JoeS by
banning someone there. That is shamelessly disregarding JoeS' position.

MTMM is basically to test out Mozilla's Mail Client for HTML capability
in order to give us equal or better capability than O/OE users. Our hope
has always been to attract as many O/OE users to Moz Mail Client as
possible. Like it or not, there a millions of people using HTML in Mail
(call it Rich Text, binary or whatever). What you perceive as testing
binaries on the group is what is being done with every HTML posting. If
something does not work, someone figures out why, find workarounds and
submit a Bug Report. This can only be done by submitting postings as one
would out in the wild. None of your non-existing binary testing by devs
can do that. None of them have ever done that and I've been there a long
time, including NTMM. That should have been and still should be of value
to Mozilla. The fact that devs at Mozilla ignored Moz Mail Client's HTML
capability is another story. The new MailCo headed by David Ascher
"should be" very interested in these testings and bug reports. Have you
checked with him as I suggested before? Have you checked with him? It
should be his domain and call I believe whether MTMM should close,
change or continue as before. Perhaps he would not have you disbanding
the group and sending them away in order to have his product tested by
someone other than Mozilla/MailCo itself, as you have proposed. It seems
to me to be an abnormal proposal.

Gerv., Chris I. cannot ever admit that he is wrong. You appointed Chris
I. and are defending him to the limit and using threats against MTMM in
that effort. Are you also not able to admit that you were wrong?

In mozilla.governance, there were three or four agreeing with you to
allow deletion of postings in Support groups. Based on that you
permitted Chris I. to do so. You now have more than that clammering to
have it and Chris removed. If you don't do so now, what would it take in
the future?

I tire of all this. Shit or get off the pot! Close down MTMM today! Do
what you will! Use MTMM as your own sandbox all to yourself! Keep your
pet Chris and your Moz Newsgroups to yourself! Decide and announce your
decision!

--
Gus
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
In reply to this post by Gervase Markham
Gervase Markham wrote:

> Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo wrote:
>> you don't need a petition.  Just read, hear and listen what's being
>> said.  How are the major helpers within the support groups: Jay, Irwin,
>> Christopher, reg, Gus, JoeS, and many, many others, and they all agree
>> on one with.
>
> If and when the moderating group starts cancelling on-topic messages, I
> will step in. If they are only cancelling off-topic messages, I don't
> see the problem.
>
> mozilla.general is for off-topic discussion. No-one is going to cancel
> anything here.
>
> Gerv

ah excuse me, but aren't you the one who said if there are
any problem, then we are to contact you.  Well, there are
people who are contacting you within these newsgroups, who
are saying there IS a problem, and you're not listening to
them.  As usual you're ignoring them.

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the Mozilla Project"

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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
In reply to this post by Gervase Markham
Gervase Markham wrote:
> We seem to be confusing two things. Chris is the sole moderator of
> mozilla.test.multimedia. Chris, Nir and Q are co-moderators of the
> support groups, and for action to be taken there, at least two of them
> (and, I would hope, all three) must agree on it. So these claims that
> Chris is a dictator in the support groups are simply incorrect.

ah excuse me, but there seems to be some confusion from the
higher up hierarchy.  Chris is NOT the sole moderator of the
mozilla.multimedia group.  It seems that those who control
things, don't know whats going on.

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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia -- Support Solution?

Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
Billy Holmes wrote:

> Quoting Jay Garcia <[hidden email]>:
>
>> You're missing the point. Peter was banned for posting a link to an mp3
>
> [snip]
>
> You've overly simplified it.
>
>> Users in MTMM have been posting songs, links to songs, etc. that were
>> not for testing purposes since MTMM was created. The question arises,
>> why was Peter banned and nobody else.
>
> The moderator probably didn't notice the other off-topic postings till  
> PP left a trail in general directing us to MTMM.

no, all you had to do was look in the group and you'd see
it.  It was all over the place.  I was NOT the first to do
this, but apparently the last.

>  But, chrisI already  
> answered this. You all just don't believe him, or choose to ignore his  
> explanation.

his explanations came 2 days *after* the banning.  Why did
he take so long?  Because he know he screwed up, and he's
trying to do some damage control.

If you took the time to read his postings within the test
group, then you'd see that he gave two different reasons why
I was banned.  However, in his excuses posting, he never did
give those reasons.  These are brand new reasons that never
came up in his original banning post.

--
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Warning: Private emails to me may become public

Posting of this message may get me banned from the Mozilla
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

squaredancer
In reply to this post by Gervase Markham
On 07.12.2007 10:48, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Gervase
Markham to generate the following:? :

> Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo wrote:
>  
>> the biggest problem is that [according to the old time posters of the
>> multimedia group] since the beginning of that group, everyone has used
>> the group for Y, and rarely for X. Its only now that Gerv has expressed
>> concern that the group should only be used for X.  Why has it taken so
>> long for him to find out whats been going on within his news server?
>>    
>
> Because there are a large number of groups and no one person can
> possibly read them all.
>
>  
>> He
>> controls this server and he know crap-all. A server that has been going
>> on since mid-2005.  Thats over two years that he's been clueless.  Thats
>> two years that he's been thinking that the server has been all peachy.
>>    
>
> When we initially suggested moving to a new newsgroup hierarchy, my
> original plan did not include a test.multimedia newsgroup. Several
> people asked for the group to be retained in one of the blogposts:
> http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/gerv/archives/008005.html
> Their logic was that a group was needed to test HTML and binary support
> and make our products better. It was on this basis that I added it to
> the plan.
>
> Therefore, arguing that this group purpose is a new innovation is simply
> not correct.
>
> Some sample quotations from the requests:
>
> "There should be a test bed for all clients so users can test their
> settings and any special formatting they desire to use."
>
> "Inclusion of a user group for testing of inline media embedding is a
> plus to evangelizing the MoFo products."
>
> "At this time, some of us are trying to make it easier for Gecko users
> to have multimedia capability in mail/news. We get requests frequently
> from refugees from IE who also want to escape OE but have a need for a
> fully functional HTML editor/composer in mail/news."
>
> Gerv
>  

oh dear, oh dear, oh dear!  Gerv, with that post you have bitten your
own rear quarters!

Was the group implemented *according to* those wishes/ideas/ideals??

USERS,, USER GROUP,  INLINE MEDIA EMBEDDING,

my god, gerv! where are *your* principles??

reg
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

squaredancer
In reply to this post by Terry R.
On 07.12.2007 16:55, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Billy Holmes
to generate the following:? :

> Quoting "Terry R." <[hidden email]>:
>
>
>  
>> AT LEAST leave enough of the prior post so someone can tell what is
>> being discussed without having to go back to the prior post again.
>>    
>
> Sorry. I tend to get snip happy. I hate fluff.
>
>  
>> We were invited here and drawn away from another server.  Now we're
>> being told we don't belong there.
>>    
>
>
> that really sucks. it does, and I can empathize. Yet, that doesn't  
> change the facts - only the outcome: what are you going to do now?
>
>  
go back to where we were *BEFORE* Chris Ili-ass told us (see Jay
Garcia's posts for details) the server was to be aborted - secnews, the
friendly server.

reg

reg
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

squaredancer
In reply to this post by Gervase Markham
On 07.12.2007 10:49, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Gervase
Markham to generate the following:? :

> Gus Richter wrote:
>  
>> I wonder if David Ascher is aware that you are about to destroy the
>> _only_ HTML testing group for MailCo's Thunderbird product?
>>    
>
> I have no intention of destroying the group. I'd merely like it to be
> used for HTML testing, and (insofar as it is not being) am supporting
> the moderator in encouraging its use in that way.
>
> Gerv
>  

gerv - when will you get it ??

JOE-S IS THE MODERATOR - not Chris I

reg (not shouting - emphasising)
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

squaredancer
In reply to this post by Christopher Jahn
On 07.12.2007 14:35, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Christopher
Jahn to generate the following:? :

> Jay Garcia <[hidden email]> wrote in
> news:[hidden email]:
>
>  
>>> If your point is "there's no absolutely clear dividing line
>>> therefore there should be no division", then I'll stop you
>>> right there. That's bad logic.
>>>
>>> Gerv
>>>      
>> We're talking about the logic of a community of users unlike
>> any other group on the server. The same people have been
>> together for many years and have provided support for those
>> many years as a group. Sometimes this group posts images or
>> songs or combinations of such for the pleasure of the other
>> users in the community to enjoy. That's the "logic" I am
>> speaking of. That's what they did and were encouraged to do
>> in NTMM on secnews fully sanctioned by Netscape and the
>> Netscape Champs that formed the group. They - the Community -
>> continued to use the MTMM in the same fashion as NTMM and now
>> hereby is the rub and controversy which is only surfacing now
>> after being active for two years. So now you can understand
>> what all the fuss is about.
>>
>>
>>    
>
> He'll only understand if he wants to.  His unwavering support of
> Ilias leads me to believe that this is a personal issue between
> the two of them.
>
>  

ummm - as in "my friend..." ??

british english - Chris is a bugger!
gerv-american-english - Chris is a BEGGER - see the way he begged (for
weeks, it reads in gerv's posts) for THE POWER which has led to this
controversy!

reg

reg
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

squaredancer
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
On 07.12.2007 15:45, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Billy Holmes
to generate the following:? :

> Quoting Jay Garcia <[hidden email]>:
>
>  
>> that formed the group. They - the Community - continued to use the MTMM
>> in the same fashion as NTMM and now hereby is the rub and controversy
>> which is only surfacing now after being active for two years. So now you
>> can understand what all the fuss is about.
>>    
>
> so petition for a new group to be created that satisfies your wants  
> for multimedia sharing - with the appropriate rules and regulations  
> that satisfies GigaNews issue with sharing illegal content.
>
> Perhaps grant one of the secnews clique as moderator of this new group?
>
>  

maybe you should "pop over" to the MTMM - see what comradship and help
really is??

reg


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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

squaredancer
In reply to this post by Christopher Jahn
On 07.12.2007 03:59, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Christopher
Jahn to generate the following:? :

> Gus Richter <[hidden email]> wrote in
> news:[hidden email]:
>
>  
>> Do the
>> voices of the Mozilla Community (depending on your definition,
>> I guess) from all the Support Groups mean nothing?
>>
>>    
>
> No, we're just the ones who clean up the mess of unresolved
> bugfixes, instabilities, and work-arounds and deal directly with
> users to keep them supporting the project.  If it weren't for us,
> users would have gone back to IE and OE the first time they had a
> problem and discovered that the help section is not terribly
> helpful.
>
>  

and - "by definition" (see gerv's and ChrisI's respective posts) we -
the "peer supporters" - are neither supposed to be there nor is our
presence wanted.

reg
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia -- Support Solution?

Chris Ilias-2
In reply to this post by Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
On 12/7/07 2:03 PM, _Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo_ spoke thusly:
> his explanations came 2 days *after* the banning.  Why did
> he take so long?  Because he know he screwed up, and he's
> trying to do some damage control.

Because when people started to seriously think it had something to do
with copyright, etc., I realized that I wasn't clear enough in my
explanation; and I apologized that.
--
Chris Ilias <http://ilias.ca>
List-owner: support-firefox, support-thunderbird, test-multimedia
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

squaredancer
In reply to this post by Justin Wood (Callek)-2
On 07.12.2007 07:41, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Justin Wood
(Callek) to generate the following:? :

> Leonidas Jones wrote:
>  
>> Christopher Jahn wrote:
>>    
>>> "Justin Wood (Callek)" <[hidden email]> wrote in
>>> news:[hidden email]:
>>>      
>>>>> <...snip> With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking
>>>>> about.
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>> And with all due respect, you don't know what you are talking
>>>> about in your accusations/claims against and about me.
>>>>        
>>> No, you're just the guy none of us have ever seen before telling us
>>> that we don't know what we're talking about.
>>>
>>> Look at it from our side.
>>>
>>>      
>
> My comments about chris/gerv were reflected on my experiences with them,
> *outside* of the MTMM stuff; mostly.  My comments here were in relation
> to this *one* banning, and issue.
>  
<< snipped >>

>  I highly suggest a petition rather than FUD/Flame wars (no names
> here, as *everyone* seems to have taken part in it, to some degree)
>
> ~Justin Wood (Callek)
>  

your last semi-sentence:

and you mean to say that this condition is irrelevant for you?

Everyone except two - against Chris' further partake as moderator
Two (acknowledged friends) FOR Chris' continuation

Both of those two state that Peer Support is neither intended (gerv) nor
wanted (Chris) in the support groups!  Well, if the peer-supporters go,
who will do the support??  Chris?? He is so involved with other things
that he is hardly ever seen and, when he does deem it time to show,
doesn't read the threads anyway (no time) !

reg

reg
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

squaredancer
In reply to this post by Gervase Markham
On 07.12.2007 11:07, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Gervase
Markham to generate the following:? :

> Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo wrote:
>  
>> you don't need a petition.  Just read, hear and listen what's being
>> said.  How are the major helpers within the support groups: Jay, Irwin,
>> Christopher, reg, Gus, JoeS, and many, many others, and they all agree
>> on one with.
>>    
>
> If and when the moderating group starts cancelling on-topic messages, I
> will step in. If they are only cancelling off-topic messages, I don't
> see the problem.
>
> mozilla.general is for off-topic discussion. No-one is going to cancel
> anything here.
>
> Gerv
>  

can we post "Off Topic Binaries" there, for testing??  If yes, then your
post is relevant. If No, then it is crap!

reg
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia -- Support Solution?

squaredancer
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
On 07.12.2007 16:14, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused  Billy Holmes
to generate the following:? :

> Quoting Jay Garcia <[hidden email]>:
>
>  
>> You're missing the point. Peter was banned for posting a link to an mp3
>>    
>
> [snip]
>
> You've overly simplified it.
>
>  
>> Users in MTMM have been posting songs, links to songs, etc. that were
>> not for testing purposes since MTMM was created. The question arises,
>> why was Peter banned and nobody else.
>>    
>
> The moderator probably didn't notice the other off-topic postings till  
> PP left a trail in general directing us to MTMM. But, chrisI already  
> answered this. You all just don't believe him, or choose to ignore his  
> explanation.
>
>  
>> Why was this not made apparent
>> upon creation of the group?
>>    
>
> an oversight? a mistake? perhaps a genuine misunderstanding based on  
> previous discussions? who knows? But.. if you did have an answer, how  
> is that going to change the current outcome of today? Grev already  
> stated his intention of how that group is supposed to be used.
>
>  
>> They were under the
>> impression that they could proceed "as usual" as they did in NTMM. Seems
>> they can't but why now bring this to light and not back then.
>>    
>
> sounds like a big misunderstanding on both sides. bits happen.
>
>  
>> Peter should be re-instated now that he and others in that community
>> have a more clear understanding of what Mozilla expects from the group
>> like it or not.
>>    
>
> If it's truly a misunderstanding, then I absolutely agree.
>
>
>  

get with it - ChrisI has been "moderating" that group for two years -
and he hasn't noticed anything??
As I said elsewhere - pop over to MTMM and get the backlog of posts...
see for yourself what the gals 'n' guys do there (note: do there for the
benefit of Moz-TB, SM and Suite) - you'll be pleasantly surprised!

reg


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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Justin Wood (Callek)-2
In reply to this post by Terry R.
Terry R. wrote:

> On 12/7/2007 1:52 AM On a whim, Gervase Markham pounded out on the keyboard
>
>> Terry R. wrote:
>>> Great to hear from someone who has about 3 posts in the FF group and
>>> about 3 from here. BIG vote.
>>>
>>> AND it's more negative energy than positive.
>>
>> If you want to weigh up votes, Justin's vote weighs quite a bit. He's
>> an active project contributor and I've seen him at work.
>>
>> Gerv
>
> A vote on your side, obviously. And he's admitted he hasn't followed the
> issue very long, so his vote DOESN'T weigh that much here, in respect to
> how he jumped in.
>

I was voting in that I support in regard to this issue; which is the
"breaking point" here.

And I have yet to be pointed to ANY specific "proof" of bias, stupidity,
or abuse-of-process/abuse-of-power by Chris Ilias to change my opinion
on him due to my experience with him outside of every single thread in
the groups you claim the problem is in.

And just to note, just because you disagree with someone (me) and don't
know me (at all?) doesn't mean I was "sent here by gerv" (which I seem
to recall reading someone say), or that I am inherently "sticking up for
Chris, just to stick up for Chris".

--
Thanks,
~Justin Wood (Callek)
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Terry R.
On 12/7/2007 5:38 PM On a whim, Justin Wood (Callek) pounded out on the
keyboard

> Terry R. wrote:
>> On 12/7/2007 1:52 AM On a whim, Gervase Markham pounded out on the keyboard
>>
>>> Terry R. wrote:
>>>> Great to hear from someone who has about 3 posts in the FF group and
>>>> about 3 from here. BIG vote.
>>>>
>>>> AND it's more negative energy than positive.
>>> If you want to weigh up votes, Justin's vote weighs quite a bit. He's
>>> an active project contributor and I've seen him at work.
>>>
>>> Gerv
>> A vote on your side, obviously. And he's admitted he hasn't followed the
>> issue very long, so his vote DOESN'T weigh that much here, in respect to
>> how he jumped in.
>>
>
> I was voting in that I support in regard to this issue; which is the
> "breaking point" here.
>
> And I have yet to be pointed to ANY specific "proof" of bias, stupidity,
> or abuse-of-process/abuse-of-power by Chris Ilias to change my opinion
> on him due to my experience with him outside of every single thread in
> the groups you claim the problem is in.
>
> And just to note, just because you disagree with someone (me) and don't
> know me (at all?) doesn't mean I was "sent here by gerv" (which I seem
> to recall reading someone say), or that I am inherently "sticking up for
> Chris, just to stick up for Chris".
>

An issue you know very little about.  So why offer to take sides because
you "know" Gerv & Chris (which is what you stated in the beginning)?

--
Terry R.
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