Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Gervase Markham
Terry R. wrote:
> Great to hear from someone who has about 3 posts in the FF group and
> about 3 from here. BIG vote.
>
> AND it's more negative energy than positive.

If you want to weigh up votes, Justin's vote weighs quite a bit. He's an
active project contributor and I've seen him at work.

Gerv
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Gervase Markham
In reply to this post by Gus Richter
Gus Richter wrote:
> The experiencing of the "atmosphere" and "goings-on" were meant not only
> for the length of the discussion, but on-going since Chris' anointment
> by Gerv. That's how long the problem has been festering and you pretend
> to have a full understanding in the face of a common revolt? Do the
> voices of the Mozilla Community (depending on your definition, I guess)
> from all the Support Groups mean nothing?

We seem to be confusing two things. Chris is the sole moderator of
mozilla.test.multimedia. Chris, Nir and Q are co-moderators of the
support groups, and for action to be taken there, at least two of them
(and, I would hope, all three) must agree on it. So these claims that
Chris is a dictator in the support groups are simply incorrect.

Gerv
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Gervase Markham
In reply to this post by Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo wrote:
> you don't need a petition.  Just read, hear and listen what's being
> said.  How are the major helpers within the support groups: Jay, Irwin,
> Christopher, reg, Gus, JoeS, and many, many others, and they all agree
> on one with.

If and when the moderating group starts cancelling on-topic messages, I
will step in. If they are only cancelling off-topic messages, I don't
see the problem.

mozilla.general is for off-topic discussion. No-one is going to cancel
anything here.

Gerv
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia -- Support Solution?

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by Justin Wood (Callek)-2
On 07.12.2007 00:49, Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> Chris Ilias wrote:
>> However, there is a caveat (as it applies to this thread):
>> support.mozilla.com is Firefox-only; so it's not an option when
>> providing support for other Mozilla-powered products.
>>
>
> True, but then there is also:
> http://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Help_Documentation:Base
>
> Though much more cludgy and less-discoverable than SUMO for support stuff.
>
> And for SeaMonkey
> http://seamonkey.ilias.ca/
> (which actually has a much larger barrier to entry than any solution
> presented currently)
>

You're missing the point. Peter was banned for posting a link to an mp3
song that Chris believed was off-topic because he thought that by
posting the link it wasn't for test purposes and was only posted to
provide the song on it's own merits.

Users in MTMM have been posting songs, links to songs, etc. that were
not for testing purposes since MTMM was created. The question arises,
why was Peter banned and nobody else. Why was this not made apparent
upon creation of the group?

You have to understand the "community" of users that originated in NTMM
on secnews to understand why they are who they are and are now upset
concerning these "rules on the fly" or so it seems. They were under the
impression that they could proceed "as usual" as they did in NTMM. Seems
they can't but why now bring this to light and not back then.

I'll leave it at that.

Peter should be re-instated now that he and others in that community
have a more clear understanding of what Mozilla expects from the group
like it or not.

Cheers

--
Jay Garcia - Netscape Champion
Marketing,Staff and Forums Consultant
Netscape Communications Corporation
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by Gervase Markham
On 07.12.2007 03:51, Gervase Markham wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> Jay Garcia wrote:
>> Can a link to the embedded images on an HTML
>> page be posted and the user who posted it asks for help because they
>> aren't being rendered properly? No, a binary has to be posted.
>
> Nope, because rendering of embedded images on HTML pages (which would be
> in a browser) has nothing to do with newsgroups. If they have a problem
> with this, they need a browser support newsgroup.
>
>> Ok, and
>> so what IF the html page is displayed and it just so happens to be a
>> series of images taken by digital camera on the user's vacation to the
>> Rocky Mountains?
>
> If your point is "there's no absolutely clear dividing line therefore
> there should be no division", then I'll stop you right there. That's bad
> logic.
>
> Gerv

We're talking about the logic of a community of users unlike any other
group on the server. The same people have been together for many years
and have provided support for those many years as a group. Sometimes
this group posts images or songs or combinations of such for the
pleasure of the other users in the community to enjoy. That's the
"logic" I am speaking of. That's what they did and were encouraged to do
in NTMM on secnews fully sanctioned by Netscape and the Netscape Champs
that formed the group. They - the Community - continued to use the MTMM
in the same fashion as NTMM and now hereby is the rub and controversy
which is only surfacing now after being active for two years. So now you
can understand what all the fuss is about.


--
Jay Garcia - Netscape Champion
Marketing,Staff and Forums Consultant
Netscape Communications Corporation
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Christopher Jahn
In reply to this post by Gervase Markham
Gervase Markham <[hidden email]> wrote in
news:[hidden email]:

>> It is a shame that Mozilla cannot support its users in a
>> simple graphical way by providing images along with the text
>> descriptions of the support solution.
>
> Er, http://www.mozilla.org/support/ ?

Yeah, it's very pretty.  Largely incomplete, but pretty.

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}:-)       Christopher Jahn
{:-(       http://manormaniac.blogspot.com/

Monday is an awful way to spend one-seventh of your life.
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Christopher Jahn
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
Jay Garcia <[hidden email]> wrote in
news:[hidden email]:

>> If your point is "there's no absolutely clear dividing line
>> therefore there should be no division", then I'll stop you
>> right there. That's bad logic.
>>
>> Gerv
>
> We're talking about the logic of a community of users unlike
> any other group on the server. The same people have been
> together for many years and have provided support for those
> many years as a group. Sometimes this group posts images or
> songs or combinations of such for the pleasure of the other
> users in the community to enjoy. That's the "logic" I am
> speaking of. That's what they did and were encouraged to do
> in NTMM on secnews fully sanctioned by Netscape and the
> Netscape Champs that formed the group. They - the Community -
> continued to use the MTMM in the same fashion as NTMM and now
> hereby is the rub and controversy which is only surfacing now
> after being active for two years. So now you can understand
> what all the fuss is about.
>
>

He'll only understand if he wants to.  His unwavering support of
Ilias leads me to believe that this is a personal issue between
the two of them.

--
}:-)       Christopher Jahn
{:-(       http://manormaniac.blogspot.com/

The future ain't what it used to be.
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Billy Holmes
In reply to this post by Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
Quoting Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo  
<[hidden email]>:


> the biggest problem is that [according to the old time
> posters of the multimedia group] since the beginning of that

well. I guess he was mistaken, but now he knows. He wants it changed.  
We're guests, so comply, right? If you really want a multimedia group  
where you can share content, then perhaps mozilla will create a group  
just for that instead?

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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Billy Holmes
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
Quoting Jay Garcia <[hidden email]>:

> that formed the group. They - the Community - continued to use the MTMM
> in the same fashion as NTMM and now hereby is the rub and controversy
> which is only surfacing now after being active for two years. So now you
> can understand what all the fuss is about.

so petition for a new group to be created that satisfies your wants  
for multimedia sharing - with the appropriate rules and regulations  
that satisfies GigaNews issue with sharing illegal content.

Perhaps grant one of the secnews clique as moderator of this new group?

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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Billy Holmes
In reply to this post by Christopher Jahn
Quoting Christopher Jahn <[hidden email]>:

> No, you're just the guy none of us have ever seen before telling
> us that we don't know what we're talking about.
> Look at it from our side.

that's a very elitist attitude.

If that's how you want to portray yourself and your clique, then fine.  
Just as long as the rest of us know how you feel about us [new comers]  
- then we can take your responses with the appropriate grains of salt.

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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Billy Holmes
In reply to this post by Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
Quoting Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo  
<[hidden email]>:

>> I also admit to never even touching or reading *any* of NTMM on secnews,
>> and have only had any relation with it on giganews
> how can you have had any relation with it on giganews? It
> never was on giganews or googlegroups!

I would wager that he was hoping you would take a logic leap of:

NTMM = secnews (past group)

and

MTMM = giganews (today's group)

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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Billy Holmes
In reply to this post by Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
Quoting Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo  
<[hidden email]>:


> you don't need a petition.  Just read, hear and listen

all we hear are the vocal ones that are crying foul. There are many  
lurkers here, and some could support Chris's decision.

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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia -- Support Solution?

Billy Holmes
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
Quoting Jay Garcia <[hidden email]>:

> You're missing the point. Peter was banned for posting a link to an mp3

[snip]

You've overly simplified it.

> Users in MTMM have been posting songs, links to songs, etc. that were
> not for testing purposes since MTMM was created. The question arises,
> why was Peter banned and nobody else.

The moderator probably didn't notice the other off-topic postings till  
PP left a trail in general directing us to MTMM. But, chrisI already  
answered this. You all just don't believe him, or choose to ignore his  
explanation.

> Why was this not made apparent
> upon creation of the group?

an oversight? a mistake? perhaps a genuine misunderstanding based on  
previous discussions? who knows? But.. if you did have an answer, how  
is that going to change the current outcome of today? Grev already  
stated his intention of how that group is supposed to be used.

> They were under the
> impression that they could proceed "as usual" as they did in NTMM. Seems
> they can't but why now bring this to light and not back then.

sounds like a big misunderstanding on both sides. bits happen.

> Peter should be re-instated now that he and others in that community
> have a more clear understanding of what Mozilla expects from the group
> like it or not.

If it's truly a misunderstanding, then I absolutely agree.


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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia -- Support Solution?

Michael-369
In reply to this post by Justin Wood (Callek)-2
Michael at Armadilloweb.com pondered over this reply On 12/6/2007 11:05 PM

> Michael wrote:
>> Michael at Armadilloweb.com pondered over this reply On 12/6/2007 10:46 PM
>>
>>> Michael wrote:
>>>> It is a shame that Mozilla cannot support its users in a simple
>>>> graphical way by providing images along with the text descriptions of
>>>> the support solution.  It has been said that one picture can convey a
>>>> 1000 words, well I guess you and the long hairs can continue pounding
>>>> away at the keyboard trying to provide support to very confused new
>>>> users.
>>> Just in response to this one comment...
>>>
>>> Not to say that MTMM wasn't useful, or that it isn't better than what
>>> follows but there are (many) other ways to provide images along with
>>> support solutions/docs.
>>>
>>> flickr, imageshack, http://support.mozilla.com, just to name a few
>>>
>> Justin,
>>
>> Thanks for your comments and you are correct, there are many ways to use
>> images in support.  I could have posted the images on my own sever and
>> then supplied a link, but that might have been deemed illegal.
>>
>> Some of us have a full time day job and use our spare time at home
>> providing user support, the extended time it takes to create the support
>> image, then upload it to our servers, and then provide a reliable link
>> is too much time to spend when e could use that time supporting someone
>> else.
>>
>> The point is that using the full power of the computer to provide
>> support should not be pushed back to the 1980's with text only replies
>> when a simple image can be pasted into an ongoing discussion.
>
> I don't wish us to get into opinions on which is better (each methods
> has benefits and downsides) but a few points to respond to.
>
> --I'm not a lawyer so no Idea how that'd be illegal.
>
> --"and then provide a reliable link" ... linking to a newsgroup post is
> not "reliable" as the actual format of a news:// link is not
> standardized (yet)
>
> --pointing the person at a support.mozilla.com article which addresses
> the point you wish to direct them to is probably easier/faster than
> writing a newsgroup post and digging an image up to attach anyway (imho)
> than even trying to do a newsgroup post in text-only.  Probably even
> easier in the cases where you need images, to use mozzine forums (I
> believe they allow inline images in posts there, if I am wrong; forgive
> me, I don't like working in forums)
>

Justin,

 > --I'm not a lawyer so no Idea how that'd be illegal.
In accordance with the newly revealed regulations of MTMM.

 > --"and then provide a reliable link" ... linking to a newsgroup post is
 > not "reliable" as the actual format of a news:// link is not
 > standardized (yet)

I am not referring to linking to a newsgroup post, I am referring to
linking to an external image file within the post.
Such as a user has a technical problem embedding content into an e-mail
or newsgroup message I can open my settings and use Snagit to capture
that section of the preferences and copy/paste the image into the post.
  Adding a few words of text to instruct the user how to create the
embedded content.  This takes a few seconds of my time to organize the
image capture, paste the image into the message body, and add some
explanatory text.  Much less time than it has taken to create this text
discussion.

To use any other method consumes a much greater amount of time and may
lead to misunderstanding in just the English language let alone the
international language support we provide in broken English.

 > --pointing the person at a support.mozilla.com article which addresses
 > the point you wish to direct them to is probably easier/faster than
 > writing a newsgroup post and digging an image up to attach anyway (imho)
 > than even trying to do a newsgroup post in text-only.  Probably even
 > easier in the cases where you need images, to use mozzine forums (I
 > believe they allow inline images in posts there, if I am wrong; forgive
 > me, I don't like working in forums)

If I had all the resources indexed for all the articles you may be
correct, however that approach remove the human contact element that
generates trust between the user and the product.

I agree with you on forums they are a very clumsy way to communicate
support issues.

Michael




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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Christopher Jahn
In reply to this post by Christopher Jahn
Billy Holmes <[hidden email]> wrote in
news:[hidden email]:

> Quoting Christopher Jahn <[hidden email]>:
>
>> No, you're just the guy none of us have ever seen before
telling
>> us that we don't know what we're talking about.
>> Look at it from our side.
>
> that's a very elitist attitude.

No, it's not.  It's realistic.  The person who just walked in the
door can not have the whole story.

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}:-)       Christopher Jahn
{:-(       http://manormaniac.blogspot.com/

A sucking chest wound is just nature's way of telling you to
slow down.
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Christopher Jahn
In reply to this post by Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
Billy Holmes <[hidden email]> wrote in
news:[hidden email]:

> Quoting Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo  
> <[hidden email]>:
>
>
>> you don't need a petition.  Just read, hear and listen
>
> all we hear are the vocal ones that are crying foul. There are
> many  lurkers here, and some could support Chris's decision.
>
>

All you hear are the folks who have been donating their time and
effort for the better part of a decade to support this project.  
And there are some notable people who are widely regarded for
their moderate positions and refusal to get in to flaming
discussion.  And yet here they are.

--
}:-)       Christopher Jahn
{:-(       http://manormaniac.blogspot.com/

Fidelity: A virtue peculiar to those who are about to be
betrayed.
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia -- Support Solution?

Christopher Jahn
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
Billy Holmes <[hidden email]> wrote in
news:[hidden email]:

>
>> You're missing the point. Peter was banned for posting a link
>> to an mp3
>
> [snip]
>
> You've overly simplified it.

No, he hasn't.

--
}:-)       Christopher Jahn
{:-(       http://manormaniac.blogspot.com/

The meek will inherit the earth; the rest of us will go to the
stars.
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Terry R.
In reply to this post by Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
On 12/7/2007 6:42 AM On a whim, Billy Holmes pounded out on the keyboard

> Quoting Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo  
> <[hidden email]>:
>
>
>> the biggest problem is that [according to the old time
>> posters of the multimedia group] since the beginning of that
>
> well. I guess he was mistaken, but now he knows. He wants it changed.  
> We're guests, so comply, right? If you really want a multimedia group  
> where you can share content, then perhaps mozilla will create a group  
> just for that instead?
>

AT LEAST leave enough of the prior post so someone can tell what is
being discussed without having to go back to the prior post again.

We were invited here and drawn away from another server.  Now we're
being told we don't belong there.

--
Terry R.
Anti-spam measures are included in my email address.
Delete NOSPAM from the email address after clicking Reply.
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Billy Holmes
In reply to this post by Christopher Jahn
Quoting Christopher Jahn <[hidden email]>:


> All you hear are the folks who have been donating their time and
> effort for the better part of a decade to support this project.
> And there are some notable people who are widely regarded for
> their moderate positions and refusal to get in to flaming
> discussion.  And yet here they are.

Then start a petition to remove chrisI from moderatorship.

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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia -- Support Solution?

Billy Holmes
In reply to this post by Christopher Jahn
Quoting Christopher Jahn <[hidden email]>:


>> You've overly simplified it.
> No, he hasn't.

I disagree.

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