Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Christopher Jahn
"Justin Wood (Callek)" <[hidden email]> wrote in
news:[hidden email]:

> But if *this* is what broke your straw, then I'd be inclined
> to call your argument a "straw man" itself. As in this
> particular case, he was fully justified.

Was he?  If he wasn "justified" in this case, why hasn't Ilias
banned the dozens of posters who have done the same thing on a
regular basis over the last few years?

He didn't ban Peter because he posted a link to an mp3.  He
banned peter because he has it in for Peter, and finally came up
with an excuse to do what he wants, and that's the truth of it.

It comes back to the history, and you aren't competent to judge
simply because you dragged ass in here on a whim to help Gerv
clean up Ilias' mess.  Jay, Gus, and Lee have more years with the
project than anybody, and look where they are standing.  The fact
that they stand opposed to Ilias should be all that is required
to remove Ilias.  These aren't a few random cranks blowing steam.  
These guys, more than you or Gerv, are responsible for the
existence of Mozilla.  They helped nurture it through its infancy
as a Netscape project, and out into the great wide world.

You aren't helping.  You've climbed out of some ivory tower
convinced your sh*t doesn't stink to tell us that you know more
than we do about something you've spent an hour reading in one
discussion.  We've been here since they plugged in these servers.  
We were supporting Mozilla before it had its own servers, before
FF, before all the spin-offs and formal organizations.  And
you're going to tell US what's what?  With all due respect, you
don't know what you're talking about.


--
}:-)       Christopher Jahn
{:-(       http://manormaniac.blogspot.com/

DISSENT IS THE HIGHEST FORM OF PATRIOTISM -- Thomas  Jefferson
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Michael-369
In reply to this post by Gervase Markham
Michael at Armadilloweb.com pondered over this reply On 12/6/2007 3:22 PM

> There has recently been some confusion about the purpose of this group.
>
> The mozilla.test hierarchy is for messages used to test Mozilla Project
> newsreading software or, as a service to the community, other
> newsreading software or people's newsreading connections, without
> disrupting the main groups.
>
> mozilla.test is for general message testing. mozilla.test.multimedia is
> a more specific version of mozilla.test, for testing Mozilla Project or
> other newsreading software with binary attachments, which includes
> things like HTML posts with embedded images. There may also be
> discussion of whether a particular test worked and, if not, why not. As
> such, it is obviously an exception to the "no binary posting" etiquette
> rule.
>
> mozilla.test.multimedia is moderated, at the request of our newsgroup
> provider, in order that the ability to post binaries is not abused.
> However, it is consistent with the role of the moderator to keep the
> group on-topic, and to keep the Project out of any possible legal
> trouble (e.g. by removing messages which otherwise fit the group
> charter, but contain obviously illegal material).
>
> This is in line with the brief group description here:
> http://www.mozilla.org/community/developer-forums.html
> "mozilla.test.multimedia For binary test messages."
>
> This means that people posting will generally be people involved in
> Mozilla or other project QA, who are testing these particular features
> of Thunderbird, The Mozilla Suite etc. And that traffic should therefore
> be pretty low.
>
> Neither of these groups is for general discussion.
>
> I apologise if anyone was under a misapprehension that this group was a
> general multimedia discussion group, or for debugging general multimedia
> problems, or for sharing interesting multimedia. This is not correct. If
> members of the Mozilla community wish to do such things, the
> mozilla.general group is available for general discussion. Although of
> course, there as everywhere, the Mozilla forum etiquette document should
> be seen as a minimum standard of behaviour.
> http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html
>
> I am not a member of this group; if you have questions about this
> statement, please ask them in mozilla.general, which I will be a member
> of for a little while from now. After that, I can be reached by email.
>
> Gerv

Gerv,

I sincerely apologize for abusing MTMM.  It was my understanding when
this group was opened that it was for the testing and support of users
who wished to learn how to post binary embedded content into e-mail
messages and newsgroup posts.  It was also a very useful group to use in
supporting all Mozilla based applications because we could include
screen shot images when providing user support.

It is a shame that Mozilla cannot support its users in a simple
graphical way by providing images along with the text descriptions of
the support solution.  It has been said that one picture can convey a
1000 words, well I guess you and the long hairs can continue pounding
away at the keyboard trying to provide support to very confused new users.

Thanks for the short lived use of MTMM

Sincerely,

Michael Gordon

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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Justin Wood (Callek)-2
In reply to this post by Christopher Jahn
Christopher Jahn wrote:

> "Justin Wood (Callek)" <[hidden email]> wrote in
> news:[hidden email]:
>
>> But if *this* is what broke your straw, then I'd be inclined
>> to call your argument a "straw man" itself. As in this
>> particular case, he was fully justified.
>
> Was he?  If he wasn "justified" in this case, why hasn't Ilias
> banned the dozens of posters who have done the same thing on a
> regular basis over the last few years?

because I never judge why "so and so didn't get caught".  I only <ever>
judge why so-and-so-who-is-caught is caught, and the "future" dealings
with that particular issue. A whole lot of this is judgment call.

...As for your other points, I refuse to resort to name calling and
cat-calling here. If you feel that strongly about Chris Ilias and his
role (or in your preferred case; lack-thereof) start a real petition,
get people to sign in, and submit it to those that matter.  Rather than
participating in spreading FUD on newsgroups... Thanks.

> <...snip> With all due respect, you
> don't know what you're talking about.
>
And with all due respect, you don't know what you are talking about in
your accusations/claims against and about me.

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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia -- Support Solution?

Justin Wood (Callek)-2
In reply to this post by Michael-369
Michael wrote:
> It is a shame that Mozilla cannot support its users in a simple
> graphical way by providing images along with the text descriptions of
> the support solution.  It has been said that one picture can convey a
> 1000 words, well I guess you and the long hairs can continue pounding
> away at the keyboard trying to provide support to very confused new users.

Just in response to this one comment...

Not to say that MTMM wasn't useful, or that it isn't better than what
follows but there are (many) other ways to provide images along with
support solutions/docs.

flickr, imageshack, http://support.mozilla.com, just to name a few

--
~Justin Wood
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia -- Support Solution?

Michael-369
Michael at Armadilloweb.com pondered over this reply On 12/6/2007 10:46 PM

> Michael wrote:
>> It is a shame that Mozilla cannot support its users in a simple
>> graphical way by providing images along with the text descriptions of
>> the support solution.  It has been said that one picture can convey a
>> 1000 words, well I guess you and the long hairs can continue pounding
>> away at the keyboard trying to provide support to very confused new users.
>
> Just in response to this one comment...
>
> Not to say that MTMM wasn't useful, or that it isn't better than what
> follows but there are (many) other ways to provide images along with
> support solutions/docs.
>
> flickr, imageshack, http://support.mozilla.com, just to name a few
>

Justin,

Thanks for your comments and you are correct, there are many ways to use
images in support.  I could have posted the images on my own sever and
then supplied a link, but that might have been deemed illegal.

Some of us have a full time day job and use our spare time at home
providing user support, the extended time it takes to create the support
image, then upload it to our servers, and then provide a reliable link
is too much time to spend when e could use that time supporting someone
else.

The point is that using the full power of the computer to provide
support should not be pushed back to the 1980's with text only replies
when a simple image can be pasted into an ongoing discussion.

Michael

--
Posting Guidelines for MTMM

Posting To Mozilla.Test.Multimedia <http://ilias.ca/mozilla.test.multimedia>

SeaMonkey <http://www.seamonkey-project.org/>
The "All In One Internet Application Suite"
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia -- Support Solution?

Justin Wood (Callek)-2
Michael wrote:

> Michael at Armadilloweb.com pondered over this reply On 12/6/2007 10:46 PM
>
>> Michael wrote:
>>> It is a shame that Mozilla cannot support its users in a simple
>>> graphical way by providing images along with the text descriptions of
>>> the support solution.  It has been said that one picture can convey a
>>> 1000 words, well I guess you and the long hairs can continue pounding
>>> away at the keyboard trying to provide support to very confused new
>>> users.
>>
>> Just in response to this one comment...
>>
>> Not to say that MTMM wasn't useful, or that it isn't better than what
>> follows but there are (many) other ways to provide images along with
>> support solutions/docs.
>>
>> flickr, imageshack, http://support.mozilla.com, just to name a few
>>
>
> Justin,
>
> Thanks for your comments and you are correct, there are many ways to use
> images in support.  I could have posted the images on my own sever and
> then supplied a link, but that might have been deemed illegal.
>
> Some of us have a full time day job and use our spare time at home
> providing user support, the extended time it takes to create the support
> image, then upload it to our servers, and then provide a reliable link
> is too much time to spend when e could use that time supporting someone
> else.
>
> The point is that using the full power of the computer to provide
> support should not be pushed back to the 1980's with text only replies
> when a simple image can be pasted into an ongoing discussion.

I don't wish us to get into opinions on which is better (each methods
has benefits and downsides) but a few points to respond to.

--I'm not a lawyer so no Idea how that'd be illegal.

--"and then provide a reliable link" ... linking to a newsgroup post is
not "reliable" as the actual format of a news:// link is not
standardized (yet)

--pointing the person at a support.mozilla.com article which addresses
the point you wish to direct them to is probably easier/faster than
writing a newsgroup post and digging an image up to attach anyway (imho)
than even trying to do a newsgroup post in text-only.  Probably even
easier in the cases where you need images, to use mozzine forums (I
believe they allow inline images in posts there, if I am wrong; forgive
me, I don't like working in forums)

--
~Justin Wood (Callek)
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Christopher Jahn
In reply to this post by Justin Wood (Callek)-2
"Justin Wood (Callek)" <[hidden email]> wrote in
news:[hidden email]:

>> <...snip> With all due respect, you
>> don't know what you're talking about.
>>
> And with all due respect, you don't know what you are talking
> about in your accusations/claims against and about me.

No, you're just the guy none of us have ever seen before telling
us that we don't know what we're talking about.

Look at it from our side.

--
}:-)       Christopher Jahn
{:-(       http://manormaniac.blogspot.com/

Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean
politics won't take an interest in you!
-Pericles (430 B.C.)
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Leonidas Jones-2
Christopher Jahn wrote:

> "Justin Wood (Callek)" <[hidden email]> wrote in
> news:[hidden email]:
>
>>> <...snip> With all due respect, you
>>> don't know what you're talking about.
>>>
>> And with all due respect, you don't know what you are talking
>> about in your accusations/claims against and about me.
>
> No, you're just the guy none of us have ever seen before telling
> us that we don't know what we're talking about.
>
> Look at it from our side.
>

Chris makes a point for many of us, though I certainly recognize your
name. We all need to step back.

Justin, to really understand this, you would have to have been involved
with the secnews NTMM, and have seen it transfer to MMTM.

I certainly recognize your valuable contributions, and have noted them
over the years.  Tempers are running high, and for good reason.

I'll leave it at that. I've made my feelings known elswhere.

Lee
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia -- Support Solution?

Chris Ilias-2
In reply to this post by Justin Wood (Callek)-2
On 12/7/07 12:05 AM, _Justin Wood (Callek)_ spoke thusly:
> --pointing the person at a support.mozilla.com article which addresses
> the point you wish to direct them to is probably easier/faster than
> writing a newsgroup post and digging an image up to attach anyway (imho)
> than even trying to do a newsgroup post in text-only.  Probably even
> easier in the cases where you need images, to use mozzine forums (I
> believe they allow inline images in posts there, if I am wrong; forgive
> me, I don't like working in forums)

And if the article he is looking for does not exist, he can create it:
<http://support.mozilla.com/kb/Contributor+Home+Page>
We've even got an image uploader in the page editor. :-)

However, there is a caveat (as it applies to this thread):
support.mozilla.com is Firefox-only; so it's not an option when
providing support for other Mozilla-powered products.

--
Chris Ilias <http://ilias.ca>
List-owner: support-firefox, support-thunderbird, test-multimedia
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Justin Wood (Callek)-2
In reply to this post by Leonidas Jones-2
Leonidas Jones wrote:

> Christopher Jahn wrote:
>> "Justin Wood (Callek)" <[hidden email]> wrote in
>> news:[hidden email]:
>>>> <...snip> With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking
>>>> about.
>>>>
>>> And with all due respect, you don't know what you are talking
>>> about in your accusations/claims against and about me.
>>
>> No, you're just the guy none of us have ever seen before telling us
>> that we don't know what we're talking about.
>>
>> Look at it from our side.
>>

My comments about chris/gerv were reflected on my experiences with them,
*outside* of the MTMM stuff; mostly.  My comments here were in relation
to this *one* banning, and issue.

That said if you can point me to where I have ever been "telling [you]
that [you] don't know what [you]'re talking about." I'll concede my
point and apologize.

> Justin, to really understand this, you would have to have been involved
> with the secnews NTMM, and have seen it transfer to MMTM.

I also admit to never even touching or reading *any* of NTMM on secnews,
and have only had any relation with it on giganews (and in-fact never
really liked a lot of the organizational stuff on secnews so might have
been only one 2 or 3 newsgroups back then). Assuming that this does
encompass that far back; and that in particular, I am ignorant on the
subject.

So as I said, if you feel this strongly about the issue with chris
ilias, I highly suggest a petition rather than FUD/Flame wars (no names
here, as *everyone* seems to have taken part in it, to some degree)

~Justin Wood (Callek)
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia -- Support Solution?

Justin Wood (Callek)-2
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
Chris Ilias wrote:
> However, there is a caveat (as it applies to this thread):
> support.mozilla.com is Firefox-only; so it's not an option when
> providing support for other Mozilla-powered products.
>

True, but then there is also:
http://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Help_Documentation:Base

Though much more cludgy and less-discoverable than SUMO for support stuff.

And for SeaMonkey
http://seamonkey.ilias.ca/
(which actually has a much larger barrier to entry than any solution
presented currently)

--
~Justin Wood (Callek)
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
In reply to this post by squaredancer
Billy Holmes wrote:
> I know nothing about the group, except what it listed on the mozilla web
> site, and Grev's previous post.
>
> He says: The group shall only be used for X.
>
> You say: I want it to be used for Y!

the biggest problem is that [according to the old time
posters of the multimedia group] since the beginning of that
group, everyone has used the group for Y, and rarely for X.
Its only now that Gerv has expressed concern that the group
should only be used for X.  Why has it taken so long for him
to find out whats been going on within his news server?  He
controls this server and he know crap-all. A server that has
been going on since mid-2005.  Thats over two years that
he's been clueless.  Thats two years that he's been thinking
that the server has been all peachy.

--
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Warning: Private emails to me may become public

Posting of this message may get me banned from the Mozilla
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
In reply to this post by Christopher Jahn
Christopher Jahn wrote:

> "Justin Wood (Callek)" <[hidden email]> wrote in
> news:[hidden email]:
>
>> But if *this* is what broke your straw, then I'd be inclined
>> to call your argument a "straw man" itself. As in this
>> particular case, he was fully justified.
>
> Was he?  If he wasn "justified" in this case, why hasn't Ilias
> banned the dozens of posters who have done the same thing on a
> regular basis over the last few years?

Since I've been here since November 2006, I've seen all
sorts of postings in the multimedia group.  The vast
majority of them don't fall into Gerv's definition of what
the group should be.  But, over the months, those same
people have been posting and continue to post.  Yet, they're
not removed.  Only one person has been.  Me.  Why?  Read the
next few lines and you'll see

> He didn't ban Peter because he posted a link to an mp3.  He
> banned peter because he has it in for Peter, and finally came up
> with an excuse to do what he wants, and that's the truth of it.

I'm afraid to say it, but yes, Christopher is absolutely so
very correct on this matter.  Chris I has had it in for me
since I disagreed with the removal of garth's postings, with
the cancellation policy, and above all, having spam mooses
within the support newsgroup.  These are just a couple of
examples.

--
*IMPORTANT*: Sorry folks, but I cannot provide email help!!!!

Warning: Private emails to me may become public

Posting of this message may get me banned from the Mozilla
Newsgroups, as its not "contributing to the developement of
the Mozilla Project"

Peter Potamus & His Magic Flying Balloon:
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
In reply to this post by Justin Wood (Callek)-2
Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:
> If you feel that strongly about Chris Ilias and his
> role (or in your preferred case; lack-thereof) start a real petition,
> get people to sign in, and submit it to those that matter.  Rather than
> participating in spreading FUD on newsgroups... Thanks.

you don't need a petition.  Just read, hear and listen
what's being said.  How are the major helpers within the
support groups: Jay, Irwin, Christopher, reg, Gus, JoeS, and
many, many others, and they all agree on one with.  Even two
posters have come back [Lee and Dan] and say that Chris is
wrong.  Its time to let Chris I go.  Drop him as moderator,
drop him as the spam moose.

--
*IMPORTANT*: Sorry folks, but I cannot provide email help!!!!

Warning: Private emails to me may become public

Posting of this message may get me banned from the Mozilla
Newsgroups, as its not "contributing to the developement of
the Mozilla Project"

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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
In reply to this post by Justin Wood (Callek)-2
Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:
> I also admit to never even touching or reading *any* of NTMM on secnews,
> and have only had any relation with it on giganews

how can you have had any relation with it on giganews? It
never was on giganews or googlegroups!

--
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Warning: Private emails to me may become public

Posting of this message may get me banned from the Mozilla
Newsgroups, as its not "contributing to the developement of
the Mozilla Project"

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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Justin Wood (Callek)-2
Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo wrote:
> Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:
>> I also admit to never even touching or reading *any* of NTMM on
>> secnews, and have only had any relation with it on giganews
>
> how can you have had any relation with it on giganews? It never was on
> giganews or googlegroups!
>

fairly said, I'll correct myself "any connection with MTMM on giganews"

--
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Gervase Markham
In reply to this post by Michael-369
Michael wrote:
> I sincerely apologize for abusing MTMM.  It was my understanding when
> this group was opened that it was for the testing and support of users
> who wished to learn how to post binary embedded content into e-mail
> messages and newsgroup posts.

Testing, certainly. But it seems wrong to combine QA testing groups and
support groups, because anyone joining the group for support might get a
10MB test post down their 56k modem.

> It was also a very useful group to use in
> supporting all Mozilla based applications because we could include
> screen shot images when providing user support.

That's a point I hadn't thought of. However, it does seem to me that if
support requires that sort of thing, it's best provided via a medium
which supports it well. Newsgroups by their nature are transient things
(archives notwithstanding); perhaps if a problem is so complex as to
require screenshots, it would be less effort in the long run to put the
effort into writing HOWTOs and other permanent documentation on the
various support websites?

> It is a shame that Mozilla cannot support its users in a simple
> graphical way by providing images along with the text descriptions of
> the support solution.

Er, http://www.mozilla.org/support/ ?

Gerv
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Gervase Markham
In reply to this post by Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo wrote:
> the biggest problem is that [according to the old time posters of the
> multimedia group] since the beginning of that group, everyone has used
> the group for Y, and rarely for X. Its only now that Gerv has expressed
> concern that the group should only be used for X.  Why has it taken so
> long for him to find out whats been going on within his news server?

Because there are a large number of groups and no one person can
possibly read them all.

> He
> controls this server and he know crap-all. A server that has been going
> on since mid-2005.  Thats over two years that he's been clueless.  Thats
> two years that he's been thinking that the server has been all peachy.

When we initially suggested moving to a new newsgroup hierarchy, my
original plan did not include a test.multimedia newsgroup. Several
people asked for the group to be retained in one of the blogposts:
http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/gerv/archives/008005.html
Their logic was that a group was needed to test HTML and binary support
and make our products better. It was on this basis that I added it to
the plan.

Therefore, arguing that this group purpose is a new innovation is simply
not correct.

Some sample quotations from the requests:

"There should be a test bed for all clients so users can test their
settings and any special formatting they desire to use."

"Inclusion of a user group for testing of inline media embedding is a
plus to evangelizing the MoFo products."

"At this time, some of us are trying to make it easier for Gecko users
to have multimedia capability in mail/news. We get requests frequently
from refugees from IE who also want to escape OE but have a need for a
fully functional HTML editor/composer in mail/news."

Gerv
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Gervase Markham
In reply to this post by Gus Richter
Gus Richter wrote:
> I wonder if David Ascher is aware that you are about to destroy the
> _only_ HTML testing group for MailCo's Thunderbird product?

I have no intention of destroying the group. I'd merely like it to be
used for HTML testing, and (insofar as it is not being) am supporting
the moderator in encouraging its use in that way.

Gerv
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Re: Purpose of mozilla.test.multimedia

Gervase Markham
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
Jay Garcia wrote:
> Can a link to the embedded images on an HTML
> page be posted and the user who posted it asks for help because they
> aren't being rendered properly? No, a binary has to be posted.

Nope, because rendering of embedded images on HTML pages (which would be
in a browser) has nothing to do with newsgroups. If they have a problem
with this, they need a browser support newsgroup.

> Ok, and
> so what IF the html page is displayed and it just so happens to be a
> series of images taken by digital camera on the user's vacation to the
> Rocky Mountains?

If your point is "there's no absolutely clear dividing line therefore
there should be no division", then I'll stop you right there. That's bad
logic.

Gerv
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