[Poll]Should posts containing personal attacks be removed?

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[Poll]Should posts containing personal attacks be removed?

Chris Ilias-2
_Background_
Currently, there is a moderation policy in the support newsgroups, that
anyone who posts an excessive amount of off-topic messages is first
asked to stop; and if they don't stop, we are allowed to remove any
subsequent off-topic messages by that person. See
<http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>.


_Personal Attacks_
The first rule of etiquette at
<http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html> is to be civil.
Personal attacks are considered a more severe offence, and yet we don't
have a concrete policy for removing them. Would we would like to know is:

Should we be removing posts containing personal attacks? ( Yes / No )

If so, at should a warning be required first? ( Yes / No )

If the post is not off-topic (support discussion), yet contains a
personal attack, should it be removed? ( Yes / No )

Your comments about these issues (if any).


Note that this only applies to news.mozilla.org. Posts on Google Groups
are not removed.

In order to keep these newsgroups focused on support,
*I have set replies to this post to be sent to mozilla.general*.
*Any replies posted to the support groups will be removed*.
--
Chris Ilias <http://ilias.ca>
List-owner: support-firefox, support-thunderbird, test-multimedia
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Re: [Poll]Should posts containing personal attacks be removed?

Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
Chris Ilias wrote:

> Should we be removing posts containing personal attacks? ( Yes / No )

NO!

>
> If so, at should a warning be required first? ( Yes / No )

NO!

>
> If the post is not off-topic (support discussion), yet contains a
> personal attack, should it be removed? ( Yes / No )

NO!

--
*IMPORTANT*: Sorry folks, but I cannot provide email
help!!!! Emails to me may become public

Notice: This posting is protected under the Free Speech
Laws, which applies everywhere in the FREE world,
except for some strange reason, not to the mozilla.org
newsgroup servers, where your posting may get you banned.

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Re: [Poll]Should posts containing personal attacks be removed?

C-8
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
Chris Ilias wrote:

> _Background_
> Currently, there is a moderation policy in the support newsgroups, that
> anyone who posts an excessive amount of off-topic messages is first
> asked to stop; and if they don't stop, we are allowed to remove any
> subsequent off-topic messages by that person. See
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>.
>
>
> _Personal Attacks_
> The first rule of etiquette at
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html> is to be civil.
> Personal attacks are considered a more severe offence, and yet we don't
> have a concrete policy for removing them. Would we would like to know is:
>
> Should we be removing posts containing personal attacks? ( Yes / No )
>
> If so, at should a warning be required first? ( Yes / No )
>
> If the post is not off-topic (support discussion), yet contains a
> personal attack, should it be removed? ( Yes / No )
>
> Your comments about these issues (if any).

What is a personal attack could be somewhat subjective.  For example, if
someone is being an idiot (and there are a few idiots in the world,
perhaps even in this newsgroup) referring to him/her as a twit might be
considered to be a personal attack, even if it is (in the opinions of
many) quite apropos, or perfectly accurate.

It may even be that some people in this newsgroup are not gentlemen (or
ladies), where the definition of a gentleman (or lady) is someone who
does not insult anyone *accidentally*.  It is all to easy for those of
us who are not gentlemen / ladies to say something innocently which
someone else *might* construe as being a personal attack.

In any case, I have not seen this as being a big problem.  I would be
inclined to take the path of first issuing a gentle warning, and then
taking it from there, dealing with each case on an individual basis.
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Re: [Poll]Should posts containing personal attacks be removed?

Steve Wertz
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
Chris Ilias <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
> In order to keep these newsgroups focused on support,
> *I have set replies to this post to be sent to mozilla.general*.
> *Any replies posted to the support groups will be removed*.

It sure sounds like you're asking for Support.

I haven't noticed many personal attacks, but I don't read 90% of the
posts.  Is somebody picking on you?

-sw
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Re: [Poll]Should posts containing personal attacks be removed?

David Pyles
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
See below:
On 11/28/2008 4:30 PM, Chris Ilias wrote:

> _Background_
> Currently, there is a moderation policy in the support newsgroups, that
> anyone who posts an excessive amount of off-topic messages is first
> asked to stop; and if they don't stop, we are allowed to remove any
> subsequent off-topic messages by that person. See
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>.
>
>
> _Personal Attacks_
> The first rule of etiquette at
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html> is to be civil.
> Personal attacks are considered a more severe offence, and yet we don't
> have a concrete policy for removing them. Would we would like to know is:
>
> Should we be removing posts containing personal attacks? ( Yes / No )
Yes
>
> If so, at should a warning be required first? ( Yes / No )
Yes
>
> If the post is not off-topic (support discussion), yet contains a
> personal attack, should it be removed? ( Yes / No )
Yes
>
> Your comments about these issues (if any).
We have way too many personal attacks on this group and they waste
everyone's (at least mine) time.  I think enforcing the policy will
dissuade some of the trolls who come to the group.  Maybe, once people
who like to keep the personal attack threads going get the idea that
their attacks won't be seen by anyone and give up on them the police
could be relaxed a bit again.
Dave Pyles
>
>
> Note that this only applies to news.mozilla.org. Posts on Google Groups
> are not removed.
>
> In order to keep these newsgroups focused on support,
> *I have set replies to this post to be sent to mozilla.general*.
> *Any replies posted to the support groups will be removed*.
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Re: [Poll]Should posts containing personal attacks be removed?

Robert Blair-2
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
On 11/28/2008 1:30 PM, Chris Ilias wrote:

> _Background_
> Currently, there is a moderation policy in the support newsgroups, that
> anyone who posts an excessive amount of off-topic messages is first
> asked to stop; and if they don't stop, we are allowed to remove any
> subsequent off-topic messages by that person. See
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>.
>
>
> _Personal Attacks_
> The first rule of etiquette at
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html> is to be civil.
> Personal attacks are considered a more severe offence, and yet we don't
> have a concrete policy for removing them. Would we would like to know is:
>
> Should we be removing posts containing personal attacks? ( Yes / No )

No.  If I find that someone is repeatedly offensive to me, I filter out
their messages.  Currently, I have a filter for only one such person,
whose messages are marked as already read.  (I also have filters against
spam and floods.)

> If so, at should a warning be required first? ( Yes / No )

Yes.  Otherwise, how will someone learn to modify his or her behavior.

> If the post is not off-topic (support discussion), yet contains a
> personal attack, should it be removed? ( Yes / No )

No.

> Your comments about these issues (if any).

One participant in these newsgroups was rude and insulting to me
personally.  Using filters, I no longer deal with that person.  My blood
pressure is now good.


> Note that this only applies to news.mozilla.org. Posts on Google Groups
> are not removed.
>
> In order to keep these newsgroups focused on support,
> *I have set replies to this post to be sent to mozilla.general*.
> *Any replies posted to the support groups will be removed*.


--
David E. Ross
<http://www.rossde.com/>

Go to Mozdev at <http://www.mozdev.org/> for quick access to
extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other
Mozilla-related applications.  You can access Mozdev much
more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons.
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Re: [Poll]Should posts containing personal attacks be removed?

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
On 28.11.2008 15:30, Chris Ilias wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> _Background_
> Currently, there is a moderation policy in the support newsgroups, that
> anyone who posts an excessive amount of off-topic messages is first
> asked to stop; and if they don't stop, we are allowed to remove any
> subsequent off-topic messages by that person. See
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>.
>
>
> _Personal Attacks_
> The first rule of etiquette at
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html> is to be civil.
> Personal attacks are considered a more severe offence, and yet we don't
> have a concrete policy for removing them. Would we would like to know is:
>
> Should we be removing posts containing personal attacks? ( Yes / No )
>
> If so, at should a warning be required first? ( Yes / No )
>
> If the post is not off-topic (support discussion), yet contains a
> personal attack, should it be removed? ( Yes / No )
>
> Your comments about these issues (if any).

Comment only:

The way I handle this on the UFAQ and my other forums is to remove the
offending post regardless if it's supportive or not, ban the user but I
do send an email to the offender with the reasons and then allow the
user to re-register with a promise to behave. However, if the post is a
really good support answer I will edit out the offensive part(s) and
allow the post to remain but not the user. Hope this helps somewhat ...

> Note that this only applies to news.mozilla.org. Posts on Google Groups
> are not removed.
>
> In order to keep these newsgroups focused on support,
> *I have set replies to this post to be sent to mozilla.general*.
> *Any replies posted to the support groups will be removed*.


--
Jay Garcia  - Netscape / Flock Champion
Netscape - Firefox - Flock - Thunderbird Support
UFAQ - http://www.UFAQ.org
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Re: [Poll]Should posts containing personal attacks be removed?

JoeS-3
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
On 11/28/2008 4:30 PM, Chris Ilias wrote:
> Should we be removing posts containing personal attacks? ( Yes / No )
Yes

> If so, at should a warning be required first? ( Yes / No )
Yes, and I think it should be public (in the thread)
> If the post is not off-topic (support discussion), yet contains a
> personal attack, should it be removed? ( Yes / No )
Yes. But there is always the possibility of first removing, then reposting with the technical data only.

> Your comments about these issues (if any).
>
I haven't seen this to be a huge problem, but let's not wait until it becomes one.
Anyone who frequents the group should be able to "refer" a post to the moderators, not just the offended party.

--
Joe

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Re: [Poll]Should posts containing personal attacks be removed?

Ray_Net
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
Chris Ilias wrote:

> _Background_
> Currently, there is a moderation policy in the support newsgroups, that
> anyone who posts an excessive amount of off-topic messages is first
> asked to stop; and if they don't stop, we are allowed to remove any
> subsequent off-topic messages by that person. See
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>.
>
>
> _Personal Attacks_
> The first rule of etiquette at
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html> is to be civil.
> Personal attacks are considered a more severe offence, and yet we don't
> have a concrete policy for removing them. Would we would like to know is:
>
> Should we be removing posts containing personal attacks? ( Yes / No )
YES
>
> If so, at should a warning be required first? ( Yes / No )
YES
>
> If the post is not off-topic (support discussion), yet contains a
> personal attack, should it be removed? ( Yes / No )
NO
>
> Your comments about these issues (if any).
The last case "post is not off-topic ,yet contains a personal attack"
should be modified with a text explaining that "personal attack" is not
allowed.
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Re: [Poll]Should posts containing personal attacks be removed?

John Doue
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
Chris Ilias wrote:

> _Background_
> Currently, there is a moderation policy in the support newsgroups, that
> anyone who posts an excessive amount of off-topic messages is first
> asked to stop; and if they don't stop, we are allowed to remove any
> subsequent off-topic messages by that person. See
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>.
>
>
> _Personal Attacks_
> The first rule of etiquette at
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html> is to be civil.
> Personal attacks are considered a more severe offence, and yet we don't
> have a concrete policy for removing them. Would we would like to know is:
>
> Should we be removing posts containing personal attacks? ( Yes )
>
> If so, at should a warning be required first? ( Yes )
>
> If the post is not off-topic (support discussion), yet contains a
> personal attack, should it be removed? ( Yes  )
>
>



--
John Doue
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Re: [Poll]Should posts containing personal attacks be removed?

»Q«
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
In <news:[hidden email]>,
Chris Ilias <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Should we be removing posts containing personal attacks? ( Yes / No )

No.

> If so, at should a warning be required first? ( Yes / No )

Yes.

> If the post is not off-topic (support discussion), yet contains a
> personal attack, should it be removed? ( Yes / No )

Yes.

> Your comments about these issues (if any).

I don't think there's a big enough problem in the support groups to
warrant cancellations.  If it ever got to the point where I felt the
atmosphere in the support groups was being poisoned or I thought a new
user looking in might see the group(s) as hostile, I'd change my mind.

--
»Q«
     Kleeneness is next to Gödelness.

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Re: [Poll]Should posts containing personal attacks be removed?

»Q«
In reply to this post by David Pyles
In <news:[hidden email]>,
David Pyles <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > Your comments about these issues (if any).
 
> We have way too many personal attacks on this group and they waste
> everyone's (at least mine) time.

Which group did you mean?  (The poll was crossposted to three of the
support groups, with followup set to mozilla.general.)
--
»Q«
     Kleeneness is next to Gödelness.

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Re: [Poll]Should posts containing personal attacks be removed?

Rick-20
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
Chris Ilias wrote:

> _Background_
> Currently, there is a moderation policy in the support newsgroups, that
> anyone who posts an excessive amount of off-topic messages is first
> asked to stop; and if they don't stop, we are allowed to remove any
> subsequent off-topic messages by that person. See
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>.
>
>
> _Personal Attacks_
> The first rule of etiquette at
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html> is to be civil.
> Personal attacks are considered a more severe offence, and yet we don't
> have a concrete policy for removing them. Would we would like to know is:
>
> Should we be removing posts containing personal attacks? ( Yes / No )
>
> If so, at should a warning be required first? ( Yes / No )
>
> If the post is not off-topic (support discussion), yet contains a
> personal attack, should it be removed? ( Yes / No )
>
> Your comments about these issues (if any).
>
>
> Note that this only applies to news.mozilla.org. Posts on Google Groups
> are not removed.
>
> In order to keep these newsgroups focused on support,
> *I have set replies to this post to be sent to mozilla.general*.
> *Any replies posted to the support groups will be removed*.
It makes perfect sense to me.  Civility is always proper IMO.

--

Rick
Fargo, ND
N 46°53'251"
W 096°48'279"

http://birds2.shutterfly.com/


Remember the USS Liberty
http://www.ussliberty.org/




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Re: [Poll]Should posts containing personal attacks be removed?

Michael-369
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
Chris Ilias replied On 11/28/2008 3:30 PM

> _Background_
> Currently, there is a moderation policy in the support newsgroups, that
> anyone who posts an excessive amount of off-topic messages is first
> asked to stop; and if they don't stop, we are allowed to remove any
> subsequent off-topic messages by that person. See
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>.
I disagree on the generalizations within the above paragraph.  No.
>
>
> _Personal Attacks_
> The first rule of etiquette at
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html> is to be civil.
> Personal attacks are considered a more severe offence, and yet we don't
> have a concrete policy for removing them. Would we would like to know is:
>
> Should we be removing posts containing personal attacks? ( Yes / No )
Yes, if you can get them before the rest of the world reads them.
>
> If so, at should a warning be required first? ( Yes / No )
No.  Remove the post then send a warning.
>
> If the post is not off-topic (support discussion), yet contains a
> personal attack, should it be removed? ( Yes / No )
Yes.
>
> Your comments about these issues (if any).
The policies in your first paragraph make the support groups very cold
and sterile and to a user looking for help it is not inviting.  On the
other hand off topic discussions can get way off topic and need to be
avoided.  What ever happened to the friendly camarederie among
programmers and support staff seems to have been killed off.

Michael
>
>
> Note that this only applies to news.mozilla.org. Posts on Google Groups
> are not removed.
>
> In order to keep these newsgroups focused on support,
> *I have set replies to this post to be sent to mozilla.general*.
> *Any replies posted to the support groups will be removed*.
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Re: Should posts containing personal attacks be removed?

Fox on the run
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
On Nov 28, 4:30 pm, Chris Ilias <[hidden email]> wrote:

> _Background_
> Currently, there is a moderation policy in the support newsgroups, that
> anyone who posts an excessive amount of off-topic messages is first
> asked to stop; and if they don't stop, we are allowed to remove any
> subsequent off-topic messages by that person. See
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>.
>
> _Personal Attacks_
> The first rule of etiquette at
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html> is to be civil.
> Personal attacks are considered a more severe offence, and yet we don't
> have a concrete policy for removing them. Would we would like to know is:
>
> Should we be removing posts containing personal attacks? ( Yes / No )
>
> If so, at should a warning be required first? ( Yes / No )
>
> If the post is not off-topic (support discussion), yet contains a
> personal attack, should it be removed? ( Yes / No )
>
> Your comments about these issues (if any).
>
> Note that this only applies to news.mozilla.org. Posts on Google Groups
> are not removed.
>
> In order to keep these newsgroups focused on support,
> *I have set replies to this post to be sent to mozilla.general*.
> *Any replies posted to the support groups will be removed*.
> --
> Chris Ilias <http://ilias.ca>
> List-owner: support-firefox, support-thunderbird, test-multimedia

I find that for most part the community at large will be your best
guide as to when someone has crossed the line with a personal attack.
Unless a serious line has been crossed (racial, inciting hatred) I
think a warning first would be appropriate.

JB
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Re: [Poll]Should posts containing personal attacks be removed?

Mr. Cheese-2
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2

> _Personal Attacks_
>
> Should we be removing posts containing personal attacks? ( Yes )
>
> If so, at should a warning be required first? ( No )
>
> If the post is not off-topic (support discussion), yet contains a
> personal attack, should it be removed? ( Yes )
>
> Your comments about these issues (if any).
>
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Re: [Poll]Should posts containing personal attacks be removed?

Gerald Ross
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
Chris Ilias wrote:

> _Background_
> Currently, there is a moderation policy in the support newsgroups, that
> anyone who posts an excessive amount of off-topic messages is first
> asked to stop; and if they don't stop, we are allowed to remove any
> subsequent off-topic messages by that person. See
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>.
>
>
> _Personal Attacks_
> The first rule of etiquette at
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html> is to be civil.
> Personal attacks are considered a more severe offence, and yet we don't
> have a concrete policy for removing them. Would we would like to know is:
>
> Should we be removing posts containing personal attacks? ( Yes / No )

Yes

> If so, at should a warning be required first? ( Yes / No )
>
NO

> If the post is not off-topic (support discussion), yet contains a
> personal attack, should it be removed? ( Yes / No )
>
Yes

> Your comments about these issues (if any).

The same should apply to political remarks.
>
>
> Note that this only applies to news.mozilla.org. Posts on Google Groups
> are not removed.
>
> In order to keep these newsgroups focused on support,
> *I have set replies to this post to be sent to mozilla.general*.
> *Any replies posted to the support groups will be removed*.


--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA

A man is not complete until he is
married, and then he's finished.




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Re: [Poll]Should posts containing personal attacks be removed?

Dan-248
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
on 11/28/08 3:30 PM Chris Ilias said the following:

> _Background_
> Currently, there is a moderation policy in the support newsgroups, that
> anyone who posts an excessive amount of off-topic messages is first
> asked to stop; and if they don't stop, we are allowed to remove any
> subsequent off-topic messages by that person. See
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>.
>
>
> _Personal Attacks_
> The first rule of etiquette at
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html> is to be civil.
> Personal attacks are considered a more severe offence, and yet we don't
> have a concrete policy for removing them. Would we would like to know is:
>
> Should we be removing posts containing personal attacks? ( Yes / No )
>
> If so, at should a warning be required first? ( Yes / No )
>
> If the post is not off-topic (support discussion), yet contains a
> personal attack, should it be removed? ( Yes / No )
>
> Your comments about these issues (if any).
>
>
> Note that this only applies to news.mozilla.org. Posts on Google Groups
> are not removed.
>
> In order to keep these newsgroups focused on support,
> *I have set replies to this post to be sent to mozilla.general*.
> *Any replies posted to the support groups will be removed*.

The Ad Hominem attack is the hallmark of person who can't make a good
argument so he instead attacks the person.  Don't delete the posts.  Let
others see the poster's attacks and ignore them.  Only by ignoring this
type of poster will these types have no incentive to post.
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Re: [Poll]Should posts containing personal attacks be removed?

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias-2
Chris Ilias wrote:

> _Background_
> Currently, there is a moderation policy in the support newsgroups, that
> anyone who posts an excessive amount of off-topic messages is first
> asked to stop; and if they don't stop, we are allowed to remove any
> subsequent off-topic messages by that person. See
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>.
>
>
> _Personal Attacks_
> The first rule of etiquette at
> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html> is to be civil.
> Personal attacks are considered a more severe offence, and yet we don't
> have a concrete policy for removing them. Would we would like to know is:
>
> Should we be removing posts containing personal attacks? ( Yes / No )
>
> If so, at should a warning be required first? ( Yes / No )
>
> If the post is not off-topic (support discussion), yet contains a
> personal attack, should it be removed? ( Yes / No )
>
> Your comments about these issues (if any).
>
>
> Note that this only applies to news.mozilla.org. Posts on Google Groups
> are not removed.
>
> In order to keep these newsgroups focused on support,
> *I have set replies to this post to be sent to mozilla.general*.
> *Any replies posted to the support groups will be removed*.

I feel that a user who violates rules, or established etiquette should
be warned, but personal attacks should be removed immediately.  I feel
the same way about posts with obscene language, particularly if that
language is applied to a person, rather than just as an expletive.


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Re: [Poll]Should posts containing personal attacks be removed?

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by Jay Garcia
Jay Garcia wrote:

> On 28.11.2008 15:30, Chris Ilias wrote:
>
>  --- Original Message ---
>
>> _Background_
>> Currently, there is a moderation policy in the support newsgroups, that
>> anyone who posts an excessive amount of off-topic messages is first
>> asked to stop; and if they don't stop, we are allowed to remove any
>> subsequent off-topic messages by that person. See
>> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/cancellation.html>.
>>
>>
>> _Personal Attacks_
>> The first rule of etiquette at
>> <http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html> is to be civil.
>> Personal attacks are considered a more severe offence, and yet we don't
>> have a concrete policy for removing them. Would we would like to know is:
>>
>> Should we be removing posts containing personal attacks? ( Yes / No )
>>
>> If so, at should a warning be required first? ( Yes / No )
>>
>> If the post is not off-topic (support discussion), yet contains a
>> personal attack, should it be removed? ( Yes / No )
>>
>> Your comments about these issues (if any).
>
> Comment only:
>
> The way I handle this on the UFAQ and my other forums is to remove the
> offending post regardless if it's supportive or not, ban the user but I
> do send an email to the offender with the reasons and then allow the
> user to re-register with a promise to behave. However, if the post is a
> really good support answer I will edit out the offensive part(s) and
> allow the post to remain but not the user. Hope this helps somewhat ...
>
>> Note that this only applies to news.mozilla.org. Posts on Google Groups
>> are not removed.
>>
>> In order to keep these newsgroups focused on support,
>> *I have set replies to this post to be sent to mozilla.general*.
>> *Any replies posted to the support groups will be removed*.
>
>
I believe we agree.  Not surprising, is it?


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