Planning for Trunk? AWOL?

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Planning for Trunk? AWOL?

Peter Lairo
I can't find much info in the newsgroups about trunk planning and
development. It it because Fx2 is imminent and everyone is too busy, or
because of some conspiracy to abandon the trunk? ;-)
--
Regards,

Peter Lairo

Lame attempt to get rich: http://www.lairo.com/donations.html
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Re: Planning for Trunk? AWOL?

Jesper Kristensen
Peter Lairo skrev:
> I can't find much info in the newsgroups about trunk planning and
> development. It it because Fx2 is imminent and everyone is too busy, or
> because of some conspiracy to abandon the trunk? ;-)

Try http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox3
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Re: Planning for Trunk? AWOL?

Peter Lairo
Jesper Kristensen wrote on 01.08.2006 12:36:
> Peter Lairo skrev:
>> I can't find much info in the newsgroups about trunk planning and
>> development. It it because Fx2 is imminent and everyone is too busy,
>> or because of some conspiracy to abandon the trunk? ;-)
>
> Try http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox3

Thanks. It's not exactly what I had in mind (something more dynamic like
newsgroup posts or active bugs).

Looking at the "Gecko 1.9 Feature List"(1), there doesn't seem to be
much progress (a lot of status:"unknown" and several "unowned"), but
since the release isn't planned until May 2007 that is probably an
expected status.

I just created a bug-query that lists all *trunk* builds that have been
*fixed* in the past *2 days*(2). Hopefully, that will keep me up-to-date
on how things are progressing.

(1) http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox3/Gecko_Feature_List

(2)
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=substring&short_desc=&version=Trunk&version=trunk&long_desc_type=substring&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=substring&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=substring&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=anywords&keywords=&bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&bug_status=RESOLVED&bug_status=VERIFIED&bug_status=CLOSED&resolution=FIXED&emailreporter1=1&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailreporter2=1&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=2d&chfieldto=Now&chfield=resolution&chfieldvalue=FIXED&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=
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Peter Lairo

Lame attempt to get rich: http://www.lairo.com/donations.html
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Re: Planning for Trunk? AWOL?

Boris Zbarsky
In reply to this post by Peter Lairo
Peter Lairo wrote:
> I can't find much info in the newsgroups about trunk planning and
> development.

That's because the planning stage is somewhat done.  We have a good idea of what
the big-ticket trunk items are; now we're working on implementing them.

That said, there is a weekly conference call to discuss progress; the call-in
info is always posted in this newsgroup before the call.

Perhaps we should be publishing meeting notes from these calls when something
interesting happens (doesn't describe the last several, imo).

-Boris
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Re: Planning for Trunk? AWOL?

Michael Lefevre
On 2006-08-01, Boris Zbarsky <[hidden email]> wrote:
[snip]
> That said, there is a weekly conference call to discuss progress; the call-in
> info is always posted in this newsgroup before the call.
>
> Perhaps we should be publishing meeting notes from these calls when something
> interesting happens (doesn't describe the last several, imo).

Unless I've misunderstood, those meeting notes are published on the wiki -
http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox3/StatusMeetings . The notes of the last
several meetings don't, as you say, have much of interest.

--
Michael
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Re: Planning for Trunk? AWOL?

Boris Zbarsky
Michael Lefevre wrote:
> Unless I've misunderstood, those meeting notes are published on the wiki -
> http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox3/StatusMeetings 

Oh, I didn't realize that.  Yeah, that's what the meetings have been about.  ;)

-Boris
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Re: Planning for Trunk? AWOL?

Peter Lairo-2
In reply to this post by Michael Lefevre
Michael Lefevre said on 1.8.2006 18:25:

> On 2006-08-01, Boris Zbarsky <[hidden email]> wrote:
> [snip]
>> That said, there is a weekly conference call to discuss progress; the call-in
>> info is always posted in this newsgroup before the call.
>>
>> Perhaps we should be publishing meeting notes from these calls when something
>> interesting happens (doesn't describe the last several, imo).
>
> Unless I've misunderstood, those meeting notes are published on the wiki -
> http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox3/StatusMeetings . The notes of the last
> several meetings don't, as you say, have much of interest.

Thanks for the link. There isn't much "meat" in the most recent meeting
minutes, and it seems the trunk (aka Firefox 3) seems a bit ...
unfocused right now ("we need firefox 3 plan very soon").

Could someone please provide an order-of-magnitude time-frame for this
statement: "engineers will be ready to work on fx3 very shortly"? Days?
weeks? months?

BTW: The reason I'm ... pestering ... is because (only for me?) the
trunk has seemed in a pretty bad state for quite a while:

- startup time is slow
- Fx freezes for long time (30+ secs) after startup completed
- jerky scrolling
- no bookmarks (aka Places) sidebar
- Places are ... let's say ... difficult
- can't D&D into a bookmark sub-folder (bookmarks menu and toolbar)
- cursor position not where it should be in text
- last letters in text fields not shown properly. Related to cursor.

Living on the "bleeding edge" is natural for me (have been using trunk
builds since 1999), but this bleeding has become, like, intense, man. ;-)
--
Regards,

Peter Lairo

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Re: Planning for Trunk? AWOL?

Darin Fisher-2
On 8/6/06, Peter Lairo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Michael Lefevre said on 1.8.2006 18:25:
> > On 2006-08-01, Boris Zbarsky <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > [snip]
> >> That said, there is a weekly conference call to discuss progress; the call-in
> >> info is always posted in this newsgroup before the call.
> >>
> >> Perhaps we should be publishing meeting notes from these calls when something
> >> interesting happens (doesn't describe the last several, imo).
> >
> > Unless I've misunderstood, those meeting notes are published on the wiki -
> > http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox3/StatusMeetings . The notes of the last
> > several meetings don't, as you say, have much of interest.
>
> Thanks for the link. There isn't much "meat" in the most recent meeting
> minutes, and it seems the trunk (aka Firefox 3) seems a bit ...
> unfocused right now ("we need firefox 3 plan very soon").
>
> Could someone please provide an order-of-magnitude time-frame for this
> statement: "engineers will be ready to work on fx3 very shortly"? Days?
> weeks? months?
>
> BTW: The reason I'm ... pestering ... is because (only for me?) the
> trunk has seemed in a pretty bad state for quite a while:
>
> - startup time is slow
> - Fx freezes for long time (30+ secs) after startup completed
> - jerky scrolling
> - no bookmarks (aka Places) sidebar
> - Places are ... let's say ... difficult
> - can't D&D into a bookmark sub-folder (bookmarks menu and toolbar)
> - cursor position not where it should be in text
> - last letters in text fields not shown properly. Related to cursor.
>
> Living on the "bleeding edge" is natural for me (have been using trunk
> builds since 1999), but this bleeding has become, like, intense, man. ;-)
> --
> Regards,
>
> Peter Lairo


Hi Peter,

What kind of system are you running on, and have you filed bugs on all
of those issues?  I haven't observed those perf problems on my T41
notebook.  Maybe my system is too fast, such that the perf problems
you mentioned don't show themselves.

-Darin
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Re: Planning for Trunk? AWOL?

Boris Zbarsky
In reply to this post by Peter Lairo-2
Peter Lairo wrote:
> minutes, and it seems the trunk (aka Firefox 3)

Please don't confuse trunk Gecko and Firefox 3.  While the latter is pretty
fuzzy at the moment, there are some pretty definite plans for the former.
They're just not mentioned in the meeting minutes because there's nothing to
talk about -- there is already a plan.

-Boris
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Re: Planning for Trunk? AWOL?

Mike Beltzner
In reply to this post by Peter Lairo-2
The front end experience of trunk builds shouldn't be -- aside from places -- too different from branch as we've been trying to keep things in synch. I would echo darin's statement about making sure those bugs are on file, as I'm not seeing most of them on branch.

As for when engineering focus will shift to Fx3, the best answer I can give you is "on or about Fx2 Beta 2". At that time the development effort on Fx2 will turn into maintenance and bugfixing for quality and performance through the RCs towards final release. That should give people time to turn their attention to Fx3 feature planning and development.

Developing on the branch and trunk with two different releases as targets has been "intense" as well, and I think everyone's still learning how to make it work. Suggestions welcome! :)

cheers,
mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Lairo <[hidden email]>
Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 19:52:40
To:[hidden email]
Subject: Re: Planning for Trunk? AWOL?

Michael Lefevre said on 1.8.2006 18:25:

> On 2006-08-01, Boris Zbarsky <[hidden email]> wrote:
> [snip]
>> That said, there is a weekly conference call to discuss progress; the call-in
>> info is always posted in this newsgroup before the call.
>>
>> Perhaps we should be publishing meeting notes from these calls when something
>> interesting happens (doesn't describe the last several, imo).
>
> Unless I've misunderstood, those meeting notes are published on the wiki -
> http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox3/StatusMeetings . The notes of the last
> several meetings don't, as you say, have much of interest.
Thanks for the link. There isn't much "meat" in the most recent meeting
minutes, and it seems the trunk (aka Firefox 3) seems a bit ...
unfocused right now ("we need firefox 3 plan very soon").

Could someone please provide an order-of-magnitude time-frame for this
statement: "engineers will be ready to work on fx3 very shortly"? Days?
weeks? months?

BTW: The reason I'm ... pestering ... is because (only for me?) the
trunk has seemed in a pretty bad state for quite a while:

- startup time is slow
- Fx freezes for long time (30+ secs) after startup completed
- jerky scrolling
- no bookmarks (aka Places) sidebar
- Places are ... let's say ... difficult
- can't D&D into a bookmark sub-folder (bookmarks menu and toolbar)
- cursor position not where it should be in text
- last letters in text fields not shown properly. Related to cursor.

Living on the "bleeding edge" is natural for me (have been using trunk
builds since 1999), but this bleeding has become, like, intense, man. ;-)
--
Regards,

Peter Lairo

The browser you can trust:   www.GetFirefox.com
Reclaim Your Inbox:          www.GetThunderbird.com
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Re: Planning for Trunk? AWOL?

Martijn-4
In reply to this post by Darin Fisher-2
> Hi Peter,
>
> What kind of system are you running on, and have you filed bugs on all
> of those issues?  I haven't observed those perf problems on my T41
> notebook.  Maybe my system is too fast, such that the perf problems
> you mentioned don't show themselves.
>

Three bugs I filed about the perf problems:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=328374
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=328380
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=328388
I haven't rechecked performance in a while with these bugs, but I
don't think it has gotten much better since then.
This is the more general bug about cairo performance on windows:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=334719
The tracking bug for all performance regression bugs on all platforms:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=334510

Imho, these bugs all really need to be fixed, because I can easily
notice the slowlesness of the cairo builds on my old computer.

I too can see most of the problems that Peter sees, I think these
issues are already covered in bugs.

Regards,
Martijn



> -Darin
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Re: Planning for Trunk? AWOL?

Peter Lairo-2
In reply to this post by Peter Lairo-2
Darin Fisher said on 6.8.2006 20:01:

>> BTW: The reason I'm ... pestering ... is because (only for me?) the
>> trunk has seemed in a pretty bad state for quite a while:
>>
>> - startup time is slow
>> - Fx freezes for long time (30+ secs) after startup completed
>> - jerky scrolling
>> - no bookmarks (aka Places) sidebar
>> - Places are ... let's say ... difficult
>> - can't D&D into a bookmark sub-folder (bookmarks menu and toolbar)
>> - cursor position not where it should be in text
>> - last letters in text fields not shown properly. Related to cursor.
>
> What kind of system are you running on,

AMD 64 X2 3800+
1 GB RAM
ATI Radeon 1800 XT with 512 MB
Windows XP

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9a1) Gecko/20060805
Minefield/3.0a1

> and have you filed bugs on all of those issues?  

No, because I thought (a) the bugs are so obvious that they must have
already been filed, and (b) it seems all developers are busy with
Firefox 2.0 and they would get to those issues "very soon" anyhow.

> I haven't observed those perf problems on my T41
> notebook.  Maybe my system is too fast, such that the perf problems
> you mentioned don't show themselves.

My system is fast too. It must be another cause. Unfortunately, I just
don't have the time to create and repopulate my complex profile. I might
find time to test with a clean profile next week to see which of those
issues remain (I'm guessing most/all).

--
Regards,

Peter Lairo

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Re: Planning for Trunk? AWOL?

Peter Lairo-2
In reply to this post by Darin Fisher-2
Martijn said on 6.8.2006 20:12:

> Three bugs I filed about the perf problems:
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=328374
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=328380
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=328388
> I haven't rechecked performance in a while with these bugs, but I
> don't think it has gotten much better since then.
> This is the more general bug about cairo performance on windows:
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=334719
> The tracking bug for all performance regression bugs on all platforms:
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=334510

Thanks Martijn. Those do seem to address several of the performance
issues I'm having. (there must also be bugs about the Places database
bringing performance to its knees)

PS. I've just gotten tired of filing bugs because they seem to get fixed
so slowly (probably because what I think is important is different from
what most programmers think is important - c'est la vie).
--
Regards,

Peter Lairo

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Re: Planning for Trunk? AWOL?

Mike Beltzner
Peter, while bugs may be fixed slowly, without getting filed they cannot get fixed at all. It's entirely possible that people aren't seeing the same things you are, so please do file! More eyes on the problem is how we win, not more disguntled gurmbling about how poorly we're meeting your needs. :)

You mentioned in an earlier email that you didn't have time to recreate your profile for testing: that made me think; do we have any good "sample profiles" to work from? Or good tools for duplicating profiles? Might be useful. Actually, this sounds like a different thread!

cheers,
mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Lairo <[hidden email]>
Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 21:45:14
To:[hidden email]
Subject: Re: Planning for Trunk? AWOL?

Martijn said on 6.8.2006 20:12:

> Three bugs I filed about the perf problems:
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=328374
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=328380
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=328388
> I haven't rechecked performance in a while with these bugs, but I
> don't think it has gotten much better since then.
> This is the more general bug about cairo performance on windows:
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=334719
> The tracking bug for all performance regression bugs on all platforms:
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=334510
Thanks Martijn. Those do seem to address several of the performance
issues I'm having. (there must also be bugs about the Places database
bringing performance to its knees)

PS. I've just gotten tired of filing bugs because they seem to get fixed
so slowly (probably because what I think is important is different from
what most programmers think is important - c'est la vie).
--
Regards,

Peter Lairo

The browser you can trust:   www.GetFirefox.com
Reclaim Your Inbox:          www.GetThunderbird.com
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Re: Planning for Trunk? AWOL?

Vladimir Vukicevic-3
In reply to this post by Peter Lairo-2
Martijn said on 6.8.2006 20:12:
> Three bugs I filed about the perf problems:
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=328374
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=328380
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=328388
> I haven't rechecked performance in a while with these bugs, but I
> don't think it has gotten much better since then.

The vast majority of cairo performance regressions on windows are indirectly
caused by text rendering performance issues.  Stuart is actively working
on this and is making good progress.  There are also slowdowns with image
rendering on some systems; in particular, GIF images (1-bit transparency)
have gotten slower especially on lower-end systems (where AlphaBlend is not
accelerated; even if it is, we were using faster code earlier).  I need to
do some more testing, but this is the case that 328380 is hitting.  I'm looking
into improving this performance as well.

    - Vlad


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