PerlNET? (was: Re: New language discussion?)

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PerlNET? (was: Re: New language discussion?)

"Andrés G. Aragoneses"
Jean-Marc Desperrier escribió:
> Andrés G. Aragoneses wrote:
>> Hey, but I proposed Mono. With that, we could write things in
>> IronPython, IronRuby... and have good stuff from contributors like C#,
>> all languages interacting together.
>
> As well as javascript ( http://www.mono-project.com/JScript ) and perl !
> (though PerlNet).

Thinking about this answer from Jean-Marc, I'm just wondering... why not
switching whole Bugzilla to PerlNet in order to allow full
CLR-interoperability, and then start accepting components/libraries from
other languages (and/or migrating parts from PerlNET to other language,
if interesting). I guess that a migration to a new version of a language
would be much less time-consuming than a whole re-write.

Is PerlNET mature? Does it have an official release date? Will it
overlap with Perl v.6?

Excuse my ignorance about Perl please. Just my 2c.

Regards,

        Andrés [ knocte ]

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Re: PerlNET? (was: Re: New language discussion?)

Max Kanat-Alexander
On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 13:20:37 +0100 "Andrés G. Aragoneses"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thinking about this answer from Jean-Marc, I'm just wondering... why
> not switching whole Bugzilla to PerlNet in order to allow full
> CLR-interoperability, and then start accepting components/libraries
> from other languages (and/or migrating parts from PerlNET to other
> language, if interesting). I guess that a migration to a new version
> of a language would be much less time-consuming than a whole re-write.
>
> Is PerlNET mature? Does it have an official release date? Will it
> overlap with Perl v.6?
>
> Excuse my ignorance about Perl please. Just my 2c.

        I'm pretty sure PerlNET is not mature, and that we'd have all
sorts of troubles with it, but I think your suggestion is an excellent
one from a technical standpoint otherwise. Not that we're going to do
it, just that it is indeed a good solution to what would be a difficult
problem.

        Perl 6 should actually be implementable as a native mono
language, though Larry Wall says it will be tricky. PerlNET for Perl 5
is actually just running the Perl interpreter with some Perl modules
that allow bindings back into .NET.

        The other option is to use Facebook's Thrift. I know that some
people were thinking of writing Perl bindings for it, which would allow
us to use it for a slow transition.

        If you're really interested in this re-write thing, I'd be
happy to help you with it in terms of advice, but not currently in
terms of development.

        -Max
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Re: PerlNET? (was: Re: New language discussion?)

"Andrés G. Aragoneses"
In reply to this post by "Andrés G. Aragoneses"
Max Kanat-Alexander escribió:

> On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 13:20:37 +0100 "Andrés G. Aragoneses"
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Thinking about this answer from Jean-Marc, I'm just wondering... why
>> not switching whole Bugzilla to PerlNet in order to allow full
>> CLR-interoperability, and then start accepting components/libraries
>> from other languages (and/or migrating parts from PerlNET to other
>> language, if interesting). I guess that a migration to a new version
>> of a language would be much less time-consuming than a whole re-write.
>>
>> Is PerlNET mature? Does it have an official release date? Will it
>> overlap with Perl v.6?
>>
>> Excuse my ignorance about Perl please. Just my 2c.
>
> I'm pretty sure PerlNET is not mature, and that we'd have all
> sorts of troubles with it, but I think your suggestion is an excellent
> one from a technical standpoint otherwise. Not that we're going to do
> it, just that it is indeed a good solution to what would be a difficult
> problem.
>
> Perl 6 should actually be implementable as a native mono
> language, though Larry Wall says it will be tricky. PerlNET for Perl 5
> is actually just running the Perl interpreter with some Perl modules
> that allow bindings back into .NET.
>
> The other option is to use Facebook's Thrift. I know that some
> people were thinking of writing Perl bindings for it, which would allow
> us to use it for a slow transition.
>
> If you're really interested in this re-write thing, I'd be
> happy to help you with it in terms of advice, but not currently in
> terms of development.

Thanks for your comments!

Unfortunately I'm only interested in this because it would allow me (and
my team) to become a contributor (and I guess that I'm not alone, many
people would start contributing when many languages are available to do
it). However I surely won't be available for helping in this port
because I have minimal experience in Perl.

Anyway, if I could dedicate my time to this, I wouldn't spend any effort
until all bugzilla community had agreed by consensus about it, or
otherwise I guess the effort would be useless.

Regards,

        Andrés [ knocte ]

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Re: PerlNET? (was: Re: New language discussion?)

Steve Wendt
On 11/8/2007 10:30 AM, Andrés G. Aragoneses wrote:

> many people would start contributing when many languages are available

It seems to me that getting contributions in several languages would be
completely unmanageable.
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Re: PerlNET? (was: Re: New language discussion?)

Joel Peshkin
In reply to this post by "Andrés G. Aragoneses"

>
> Unfortunately I'm only interested in this because it would allow me (and
> my team) to become a contributor (and I guess that I'm not alone, many
> people would start contributing when many languages are available to do
> it). However I surely won't be available for helping in this port
> because I have minimal experience in Perl.
>

Actually, when I stared contributing to Bugzilla,  I was learning Perl and
learning Bugzilla at the same time. It took a lot more doing to genuinely
understand Bugzilla than it did to learn Perl.  I suspect others had a
similar experience.

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Re: PerlNET? (was: Re: New language discussion?)

"Andrés G. Aragoneses"
In reply to this post by Steve Wendt
Steve Wendt escribió:
>> many people would start contributing when many languages are available
>
> It seems to me that getting contributions in several languages would be
> completely unmanageable.

I agree with you but not completely. Maybe the optimal way would be to:

a) Consider only ONE language (for core Bugzilla bits) which could be
the better considered one by the most important developers of Bugzilla
(regarding this item, CLR interoperability would be just an instrument
to allow progressive re-write from PerlNET to this language).
b) Allow CLR compatibility at an add-in/extension level, in order to
allow people design modules that could not be part of the official
release (identical as Firefox has succeeded this way, but allowing any
language).
c) Besides the "best language" in term (a), allow an additional subset
of languages (decided by community) for less important parts or
contributed modules that would be interesting to integrate in the main
release.

The idea is to leverage the advantage of having much more potential
contributions against the hypothetical situation in which a
multi-language product could suppose unmaintainable or spaghetti code.

Regards,

        Andrés [ knocte ]

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Re: PerlNET? (was: Re: New language discussion?)

"Andrés G. Aragoneses"
In reply to this post by "Andrés G. Aragoneses"
Joel Peshkin escribió:

>> Unfortunately I'm only interested in this because it would allow me (and
>> my team) to become a contributor (and I guess that I'm not alone, many
>> people would start contributing when many languages are available to do
>> it). However I surely won't be available for helping in this port
>> because I have minimal experience in Perl.
>>
>
> Actually, when I stared contributing to Bugzilla,  I was learning Perl and
> learning Bugzilla at the same time. It took a lot more doing to genuinely
> understand Bugzilla than it did to learn Perl.  I suspect others had a
> similar experience.

Actually, I have worked with Perl for more than one year, but I guess I
have the same feeling as the developer that started the "new language"
discussion. IMHO Perl is improductive and unmaintainable in many ways
(however I don't know the new v.6), and many of these kind of
appreciations have been written here [1].

Besides, my team could only contribute in C# or Java.

Regards,

        Andrés [ knocte ]

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[1] http://wiki.mozilla.org/Bugzilla:Languages
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Re: PerlNET? (was: Re: New language discussion?)

"Andrés G. Aragoneses"
In reply to this post by "Andrés G. Aragoneses"
Andrés G. Aragoneses escribió:

> Steve Wendt escribió:
>>> many people would start contributing when many languages are available
>>
>> It seems to me that getting contributions in several languages would
>> be completely unmanageable.
>
> I agree with you but not completely. Maybe the optimal way would be to:
>
> a) Consider only ONE language (for core Bugzilla bits) which could be
> the better considered one by the most important developers of Bugzilla
> (regarding this item, CLR interoperability would be just an instrument
> to allow progressive re-write from PerlNET to this language).
> b) Allow CLR compatibility at an add-in/extension level, in order to
> allow people design modules that could not be part of the official
> release (identical as Firefox has succeeded this way, but allowing any
> language).
> c) Besides the "best language" in term (a), allow an additional subset
> of languages (decided by community) for less important parts or
> contributed modules that would be interesting to integrate in the main
> release.
>
> The idea is to leverage the advantage of having much more potential
> contributions against the hypothetical situation in which a
> multi-language product could suppose unmaintainable or spaghetti code.

Furthermore, right now there are many tools that allow decompiling from
IL code or converting between .NET languages so rewriting could be
almost automatic.

Think about the situation in which someone created an interesting module
in VB.NET, but VB.NET wasn't in the subset of "official Bugzilla"
languages; it could be converted to C# and be included in the main release.

Regards,

        Andrés [ knocte ]

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Re: PerlNET? (was: Re: New language discussion?)

Max Kanat-Alexander
In reply to this post by Steve Wendt
On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 10:34:07 -0800 Steve Wendt <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> On 11/8/2007 10:30 AM, Andrés G. Aragoneses wrote:
>
> > many people would start contributing when many languages are
> > available
>
> It seems to me that getting contributions in several languages would
> be completely unmanageable.

        Yes, it would have to be only in two languages--Perl and
whatever we transitioned to.

        -Max
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Re: PerlNET? (was: Re: New language discussion?)

Max Kanat-Alexander
In reply to this post by Joel Peshkin
On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 10:43:34 -0800 (PST) "Joel Peshkin"
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I suspect others had a similar experience.

        Yes, I certainly did. :-) Particularly with how Bugzilla was
when I started! (And you started even earlier than me!)

        There were some things about Perl that were pretty tricky,
though. To this day I still watch for fundamental syntax errors
(ones that "work anyway") even in patches from advanced
contributors. :-)

        -Max
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