New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
65 messages Options
1234
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ

Aaron Leventhal-3
Please spend 5 minutes to review this article. We'll be using this to
communicate with the community on various mailing lists, etc.:

http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/Firefox+3+with+Screen+Readers+FAQ

- Aaron
_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ

Jason White-14
On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 11:43:31AM +0200, Aaron Leventhal wrote:
> Please spend 5 minutes to review this article. We'll be using this to
> communicate with the community on various mailing lists, etc.:

"Although Linux is not the focal point of this article" - why not? I would
suggest organizing assistive technologies by operating system and treating all
operating systems equally for purposes of the article. The above quote gives
those of us who are not Windows users the impression that this document is not
for us. Alternatively, state up front that this article is about Windows, and
write a separate article for Linux users. Note that there have been complaints
from various people involved in Linux that the Mozilla project, in general,
treats Linux as being of secondary importance to Windows for the purposes of
software development and support. While I do not claim by any means that this
is true, especially now that there seems to be much more cooperation between
Mozilla developers and Linux distributions, I don't think the accessibility
effort would want to add fuel to those criticisms.

Some discussion of the accessibility of Firefox extensions would be helpful in
the paragraphs early in the document that mention extensions. At the very
least, it would be helpful to mention that extensions may or may not be
accessible with assistive technologies, and where to take up issues that
may arise with the use of extensions.

As far as I know, Firefox is not accessible under MacOS with assistive
technologies. If this is true, it should be so stated.

Somewhere (not necessarily in this document), there should be a list of
accessibility-related Firefox extensions.

_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ

Marco Zehe-3
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
Hi Jason,

Jason White wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 11:43:31AM +0200, Aaron Leventhal wrote:
> "Although Linux is not the focal point of this article" - why not? I would
> suggest organizing assistive technologies by operating system and treating all
> operating systems equally for purposes of the article. The above quote gives
> those of us who are not Windows users the impression that this document is not
> for us. Alternatively, state up front that this article is about Windows, and
> write a separate article for Linux users. Note that there have been complaints
You're absolutely right! We originally thought this to be a migration
guide especially for Windows users, but as the editing process went
along, this morphed into what we're seeing now, but we neglected to
change the Orca part to something more appropriate.  Sincere apologies
for our neglegance there!

> Some discussion of the accessibility of Firefox extensions would be helpful in
> the paragraphs early in the document that mention extensions. At the very
> least, it would be helpful to mention that extensions may or may not be
> accessible with assistive technologies, and where to take up issues that
> may arise with the use of extensions.
This will also appear in the next version of the FAQ that's currently in
review status.

> As far as I know, Firefox is not accessible under MacOS with assistive
> technologies. If this is true, it should be so stated.
Also done, thanks!

> Somewhere (not necessarily in this document), there should be a list of
> accessibility-related Firefox extensions.
There is a pointer to the accessfirefox.org which has a list of
recommended extensions. But having a list of our own would probably not
be a bad thing.

Marco
_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ

Aaron Leventhal-3
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
Hi Jason,

Oops -- it's my fault that it says Linux is not the focus of the
article. The article evolved over time to become more comprehensive and
I never took that out -- we'll fix that. Note that no one should be
saying we care less about Linux, at least in terms of a11y. If someone
says that, please mention that it was a huge undertaking to fully
support ATK/AT-SPI. Not only that, Mozilla has been a big supporter of
Orca and a11y infrastructure work on Linux. They funded Orca, ATK/AT-SPI
bridge work, Collections, Accerciser, the inital study on moving to
D-Bus, etc.

We're going to change it to mention that extensions are not necessarily
accessible, and that we're not accessible on Mac.

As far as a list of extensions specifically for screen reader users, the
FAQ addresses that in a separate question and points to
accessfirefox.com for the list.

- Aaron


_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ

T.V Raman
In reply to this post by Jason White-14
Good points Jason!

Incidentally Fire Vox -- Charles' excellent self-voicing
extension for Friefox does work extremely well on the Mac.

Jason White writes:
 > On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 11:43:31AM +0200, Aaron Leventhal wrote:
 > > Please spend 5 minutes to review this article. We'll be using this to
 > > communicate with the community on various mailing lists, etc.:
 >
 > "Although Linux is not the focal point of this article" - why not? I would
 > suggest organizing assistive technologies by operating system and treating all
 > operating systems equally for purposes of the article. The above quote gives
 > those of us who are not Windows users the impression that this document is not
 > for us. Alternatively, state up front that this article is about Windows, and
 > write a separate article for Linux users. Note that there have been complaints
 > from various people involved in Linux that the Mozilla project, in general,
 > treats Linux as being of secondary importance to Windows for the purposes of
 > software development and support. While I do not claim by any means that this
 > is true, especially now that there seems to be much more cooperation between
 > Mozilla developers and Linux distributions, I don't think the accessibility
 > effort would want to add fuel to those criticisms.
 >
 > Some discussion of the accessibility of Firefox extensions would be helpful in
 > the paragraphs early in the document that mention extensions. At the very
 > least, it would be helpful to mention that extensions may or may not be
 > accessible with assistive technologies, and where to take up issues that
 > may arise with the use of extensions.
 >
 > As far as I know, Firefox is not accessible under MacOS with assistive
 > technologies. If this is true, it should be so stated.
 >
 > Somewhere (not necessarily in this document), there should be a list of
 > accessibility-related Firefox extensions.
 >
 > _______________________________________________
 > dev-accessibility mailing list
 > [hidden email]
 > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility

--
Best Regards,
--raman

Title:  Research Scientist      
Email:  [hidden email]
WWW:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/
Google: tv+raman
GTalk:  [hidden email], [hidden email]
PGP:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc

_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ

Steve Lee-3
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
2008/7/9 Aaron Leventhal <[hidden email]>:
> Please spend 5 minutes to review this article. We'll be using this to
> communicate with the community on various mailing lists, etc.:
>

(resubmitting to list)

Excellent and hard to fault especially for it's intended purpose of
explaining why FF provides a great experience with screen readers.

You could explain a bit more what Open Standards *are* and why they
*matter* so much. It's really hard to get a cross to people with less
technical backgrounds (I usually waffle on about power plugs or car
wheels). Perhaps a link to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_standards but I don't think it is
very good for that purpose either.

Oh isn't FireVox worth a mention too?

--
Steve Lee
Open Source Assistive Technology Software and Accessibility
fullmeasure.co.uk
_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ

Aaron Leventhal-3
I'd like to hear more about Fire Vox from the community first.

Who is using it as a major way of accessing Firefox, and how well does
it work?

- Aaron

_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ

Jamal Mazrui
In reply to this post by Steve Lee-3
The FAQ could use a spell check, but otherwise is good, in my opinion.  

One thing I seem to be missing, however, is why Mozilla has not done
more to make the DOM of a web page in Firefox available to a scriptable
Windows screen reader.  Both JAWS and Window-Eyes now have powerful
scripting languages that can augment usability in Internet Explorer by
means of the DOM.  If I understand correctly, this is not possible with
Firefox, either via an IE-like COM object model or via MSAA.  I know
Firefox implements MSAA extensively, so its seeming lack of availability
to JAWS or Window-Eyes scripts is a significant shortcoming to me.  I
have written JAWS scripts that add significant IE conveniences for JAWS
users, and would consider doing similarly for Firefox, either with JAWS
or Window-Eyes.

What is being done to make Firefox more competitive with IE to scripters
of Windows screen readers?

Regards,
Jamal
_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ

Bryan Garaventa-2
I agree with Jamal,

I've been developing JAWS scripts for years, and the capability of the
available screen reader scripting languages has been increasing steadily.

An example of this is the online chat application at
http://gutterstar.net/dynamic_live_chat.php , which simulates AJAX behavior
when displaying incoming messages within a web page. I created this app as
an exercise to demonstrate that it is possible to merge current dynamic web
programming technologies with existing screen reader technologies to create
fully interactive web applications.

I accomplished this by creating JAWS scripts that monitor the live DOM
within IE, and when new messages are detected within the message area on the
page, the incoming message will automatically be spoken within JAWS.

I attempted to do the same for Firefox, which would enable the same level of
accessibility for screen reader users, but failed in this. There was no way
for the scripts to monitor a given element within the page that had a unique
ID, which is what the scripts use to identify the critical elements within
the page. Essentially, a DOM type object is not available.

Having this capability within Firefox would enable many new options for
dynamic web app development, that would support limitless opportunities for
companies and individuals exploring web-type environments for new products
and services in the future.

Sincerely,

Bryan Garaventa


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bryan Garaventa
Senior Accessibility Engineer
SSB + BART Group
[hidden email]
www.SSBBartGroup.com
Accessibility-On-Demand

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jamal Mazrui" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 8:37 AM
Subject: RE: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ


> The FAQ could use a spell check, but otherwise is good, in my opinion.
>
> One thing I seem to be missing, however, is why Mozilla has not done
> more to make the DOM of a web page in Firefox available to a scriptable
> Windows screen reader.  Both JAWS and Window-Eyes now have powerful
> scripting languages that can augment usability in Internet Explorer by
> means of the DOM.  If I understand correctly, this is not possible with
> Firefox, either via an IE-like COM object model or via MSAA.  I know
> Firefox implements MSAA extensively, so its seeming lack of availability
> to JAWS or Window-Eyes scripts is a significant shortcoming to me.  I
> have written JAWS scripts that add significant IE conveniences for JAWS
> users, and would consider doing similarly for Firefox, either with JAWS
> or Window-Eyes.
>
> What is being done to make Firefox more competitive with IE to scripters
> of Windows screen readers?
>
> Regards,
> Jamal
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility

_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ

David hilbert Poehlman
Sounds like new extentions are in order.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Garaventa" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ


I agree with Jamal,

I've been developing JAWS scripts for years, and the capability of the
available screen reader scripting languages has been increasing steadily.

An example of this is the online chat application at
http://gutterstar.net/dynamic_live_chat.php , which simulates AJAX behavior
when displaying incoming messages within a web page. I created this app as
an exercise to demonstrate that it is possible to merge current dynamic web
programming technologies with existing screen reader technologies to create
fully interactive web applications.

I accomplished this by creating JAWS scripts that monitor the live DOM
within IE, and when new messages are detected within the message area on the
page, the incoming message will automatically be spoken within JAWS.

I attempted to do the same for Firefox, which would enable the same level of
accessibility for screen reader users, but failed in this. There was no way
for the scripts to monitor a given element within the page that had a unique
ID, which is what the scripts use to identify the critical elements within
the page. Essentially, a DOM type object is not available.

Having this capability within Firefox would enable many new options for
dynamic web app development, that would support limitless opportunities for
companies and individuals exploring web-type environments for new products
and services in the future.

Sincerely,

Bryan Garaventa


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bryan Garaventa
Senior Accessibility Engineer
SSB + BART Group
[hidden email]
www.SSBBartGroup.com
Accessibility-On-Demand

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jamal Mazrui" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 8:37 AM
Subject: RE: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ


> The FAQ could use a spell check, but otherwise is good, in my opinion.
>
> One thing I seem to be missing, however, is why Mozilla has not done
> more to make the DOM of a web page in Firefox available to a scriptable
> Windows screen reader.  Both JAWS and Window-Eyes now have powerful
> scripting languages that can augment usability in Internet Explorer by
> means of the DOM.  If I understand correctly, this is not possible with
> Firefox, either via an IE-like COM object model or via MSAA.  I know
> Firefox implements MSAA extensively, so its seeming lack of availability
> to JAWS or Window-Eyes scripts is a significant shortcoming to me.  I
> have written JAWS scripts that add significant IE conveniences for JAWS
> users, and would consider doing similarly for Firefox, either with JAWS
> or Window-Eyes.
>
> What is being done to make Firefox more competitive with IE to scripters
> of Windows screen readers?
>
> Regards,
> Jamal
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility

_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility


_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ

Aaron Leventhal-3
In reply to this post by Jamal Mazrui
This is good criticism.

I would say that our DOM is scriptable but not via IDispatch. For
example, NVDA is written in Python and can access the Firefox DOM. We
have several DOM interfaces -- ISimpleDOMNode, ISimpleDOMText and
ISimpleDOMDocument that provide read only access to the DOM.

Screen readers could use our IDL for these interfaces to make the
Firefox DOM scriptable.

Similarly, screen readers could use the IDL for IAccessible2 to provide
that interfaces to scripters (and not just in Firefox).

On the other hand I'd like to support IDispatch in Firefox. We do have a
bug open for that. I'm not willing to break any kind of binary
compatibility, but I'm not sure if that would be necessary.

- Aaron
_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

[Fire Vox] Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ

Aaron Leventhal-3
In reply to this post by Jason White-14
Thanks for bringing up Fire Vox.

Right now we don't know enough about it to add it. But if we can get
some good answers to our questions then I think we should add it.

First, I'd like to hear from some regular users of Fire Vox. Tell us
what you like about it, your experiences, etc.

Next, my concern is the overall support for users and developers:
- Is there a place where Fire Vox users can get support?
- Is there a mailing list for users?
- A bug database?
- Who is currently developing Fire Vox? Is it one developer (Charles
Chen), and is he currently very active?

How realistic is it to list Fire Vox among other projects that have
numerous developers? If there are a lot of users experiencing great
Firefox usage with Fire Vox, then my concerns are put to rest.

- Aaron

T.V Raman wrote:

> Good points Jason!
>
> Incidentally Fire Vox -- Charles' excellent self-voicing
> extension for Friefox does work extremely well on the Mac.
>
> Jason White writes:
>   >  On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 11:43:31AM +0200, Aaron Leventhal wrote:
>   >  >  Please spend 5 minutes to review this article. We'll be using this to
>   >  >  communicate with the community on various mailing lists, etc.:
>   >
>   >  "Although Linux is not the focal point of this article" - why not? I would
>   >  suggest organizing assistive technologies by operating system and treating all
>   >  operating systems equally for purposes of the article. The above quote gives
>   >  those of us who are not Windows users the impression that this document is not
>   >  for us. Alternatively, state up front that this article is about Windows, and
>   >  write a separate article for Linux users. Note that there have been complaints
>   >  from various people involved in Linux that the Mozilla project, in general,
>   >  treats Linux as being of secondary importance to Windows for the purposes of
>   >  software development and support. While I do not claim by any means that this
>   >  is true, especially now that there seems to be much more cooperation between
>   >  Mozilla developers and Linux distributions, I don't think the accessibility
>   >  effort would want to add fuel to those criticisms.
>   >
>   >  Some discussion of the accessibility of Firefox extensions would be helpful in
>   >  the paragraphs early in the document that mention extensions. At the very
>   >  least, it would be helpful to mention that extensions may or may not be
>   >  accessible with assistive technologies, and where to take up issues that
>   >  may arise with the use of extensions.
>   >
>   >  As far as I know, Firefox is not accessible under MacOS with assistive
>   >  technologies. If this is true, it should be so stated.
>   >
>   >  Somewhere (not necessarily in this document), there should be a list of
>   >  accessibility-related Firefox extensions.
>   >
>   >  _______________________________________________
>   >  dev-accessibility mailing list
>   >  [hidden email]
>   >  https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>


_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

[Fire Vox] Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ

T.V Raman
This reminds me of an incident at Fry's a few years ago  -- for
those outside Silicon Valley -- Fry's is a giant electronic store
where you can buy anything).

Me To Sales Rep: Do you have IBM Thinkpads?
Sales Rep: No, no one asks for them.
Me: But I just asked for one.



Aaron Leventhal writes:
 > Thanks for bringing up Fire Vox.
 >
 > Right now we don't know enough about it to add it. But if we can get
 > some good answers to our questions then I think we should add it.
 >
 > First, I'd like to hear from some regular users of Fire Vox. Tell us
 > what you like about it, your experiences, etc.
 >
 > Next, my concern is the overall support for users and developers:
 > - Is there a place where Fire Vox users can get support?
 > - Is there a mailing list for users?
 > - A bug database?
 > - Who is currently developing Fire Vox? Is it one developer (Charles
 > Chen), and is he currently very active?
 >
 > How realistic is it to list Fire Vox among other projects that have
 > numerous developers? If there are a lot of users experiencing great
 > Firefox usage with Fire Vox, then my concerns are put to rest.
 >
 > - Aaron
 >
 > T.V Raman wrote:
 > > Good points Jason!
 > >
 > > Incidentally Fire Vox -- Charles' excellent self-voicing
 > > extension for Friefox does work extremely well on the Mac.
 > >
 > > Jason White writes:
 > >   >  On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 11:43:31AM +0200, Aaron Leventhal wrote:
 > >   >  >  Please spend 5 minutes to review this article. We'll be using this to
 > >   >  >  communicate with the community on various mailing lists, etc.:
 > >   >
 > >   >  "Although Linux is not the focal point of this article" - why not? I would
 > >   >  suggest organizing assistive technologies by operating system and treating all
 > >   >  operating systems equally for purposes of the article. The above quote gives
 > >   >  those of us who are not Windows users the impression that this document is not
 > >   >  for us. Alternatively, state up front that this article is about Windows, and
 > >   >  write a separate article for Linux users. Note that there have been complaints
 > >   >  from various people involved in Linux that the Mozilla project, in general,
 > >   >  treats Linux as being of secondary importance to Windows for the purposes of
 > >   >  software development and support. While I do not claim by any means that this
 > >   >  is true, especially now that there seems to be much more cooperation between
 > >   >  Mozilla developers and Linux distributions, I don't think the accessibility
 > >   >  effort would want to add fuel to those criticisms.
 > >   >
 > >   >  Some discussion of the accessibility of Firefox extensions would be helpful in
 > >   >  the paragraphs early in the document that mention extensions. At the very
 > >   >  least, it would be helpful to mention that extensions may or may not be
 > >   >  accessible with assistive technologies, and where to take up issues that
 > >   >  may arise with the use of extensions.
 > >   >
 > >   >  As far as I know, Firefox is not accessible under MacOS with assistive
 > >   >  technologies. If this is true, it should be so stated.
 > >   >
 > >   >  Somewhere (not necessarily in this document), there should be a list of
 > >   >  accessibility-related Firefox extensions.
 > >   >
 > >   >  _______________________________________________
 > >   >  dev-accessibility mailing list
 > >   >  [hidden email]
 > >   >  https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
 > >
 >

--
Best Regards,
--raman

Title:  Research Scientist      
Email:  [hidden email]
WWW:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/
Google: tv+raman
GTalk:  [hidden email], [hidden email]
PGP:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc

_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Fire Vox] Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ

Aaron Leventhal-3
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
Yes, but you have Charles Chen in earshot when you need support.

I asked about support :)

- Aaron

T.V Raman wrote:

> This reminds me of an incident at Fry's a few years ago  -- for
> those outside Silicon Valley -- Fry's is a giant electronic store
> where you can buy anything).
>
> Me To Sales Rep: Do you have IBM Thinkpads?
> Sales Rep: No, no one asks for them.
> Me: But I just asked for one.
>
>
>
> Aaron Leventhal writes:
>   >  Thanks for bringing up Fire Vox.
>   >
>   >  Right now we don't know enough about it to add it. But if we can get
>   >  some good answers to our questions then I think we should add it.
>   >
>   >  First, I'd like to hear from some regular users of Fire Vox. Tell us
>   >  what you like about it, your experiences, etc.
>   >
>   >  Next, my concern is the overall support for users and developers:
>   >  - Is there a place where Fire Vox users can get support?
>   >  - Is there a mailing list for users?
>   >  - A bug database?
>   >  - Who is currently developing Fire Vox? Is it one developer (Charles
>   >  Chen), and is he currently very active?
>   >
>   >  How realistic is it to list Fire Vox among other projects that have
>   >  numerous developers? If there are a lot of users experiencing great
>   >  Firefox usage with Fire Vox, then my concerns are put to rest.
>   >
>   >  - Aaron
>   >
>   >  T.V Raman wrote:
>   >  >  Good points Jason!
>   >  >
>   >  >  Incidentally Fire Vox -- Charles' excellent self-voicing
>   >  >  extension for Friefox does work extremely well on the Mac.
>   >  >
>   >  >  Jason White writes:
>   >  >    >   On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 11:43:31AM +0200, Aaron Leventhal wrote:
>   >  >    >   >   Please spend 5 minutes to review this article. We'll be using this to
>   >  >    >   >   communicate with the community on various mailing lists, etc.:
>   >  >    >
>   >  >    >   "Although Linux is not the focal point of this article" - why not? I would
>   >  >    >   suggest organizing assistive technologies by operating system and treating all
>   >  >    >   operating systems equally for purposes of the article. The above quote gives
>   >  >    >   those of us who are not Windows users the impression that this document is not
>   >  >    >   for us. Alternatively, state up front that this article is about Windows, and
>   >  >    >   write a separate article for Linux users. Note that there have been complaints
>   >  >    >   from various people involved in Linux that the Mozilla project, in general,
>   >  >    >   treats Linux as being of secondary importance to Windows for the purposes of
>   >  >    >   software development and support. While I do not claim by any means that this
>   >  >    >   is true, especially now that there seems to be much more cooperation between
>   >  >    >   Mozilla developers and Linux distributions, I don't think the accessibility
>   >  >    >   effort would want to add fuel to those criticisms.
>   >  >    >
>   >  >    >   Some discussion of the accessibility of Firefox extensions would be helpful in
>   >  >    >   the paragraphs early in the document that mention extensions. At the very
>   >  >    >   least, it would be helpful to mention that extensions may or may not be
>   >  >    >   accessible with assistive technologies, and where to take up issues that
>   >  >    >   may arise with the use of extensions.
>   >  >    >
>   >  >    >   As far as I know, Firefox is not accessible under MacOS with assistive
>   >  >    >   technologies. If this is true, it should be so stated.
>   >  >    >
>   >  >    >   Somewhere (not necessarily in this document), there should be a list of
>   >  >    >   accessibility-related Firefox extensions.
>   >  >    >
>   >  >    >   _______________________________________________
>   >  >    >   dev-accessibility mailing list
>   >  >    >   [hidden email]
>   >  >    >   https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>   >  >
>   >
>

_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ

Bryan Garaventa-2
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
(Woops, forgot to reply to all...)

Would it be possible to expose a public property within FF that represents
the live DOM? I know that the functionality is more MSAA based, but if such
a property could default to the ISimpleDOMNode interface, then it could be
directly accessed using any screen reader scripting language without
requiring additional development from the screen reader manufacturers to add
a compatible interface within the scripting language, which wouldn't likely
happen any time soon given their current pace of development.

If such a DOM property were exposed in FF, it would act similarly to IE's
MSHTML.Document property, which could then be scripted. All that would need
be done, is that the DOM property be bound to the main doc object so it
would update accordingly at runtime. Well, I think, not being an FF
developer.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bryan Garaventa
Senior Accessibility Engineer
SSB + BART Group
[hidden email]
www.SSBBartGroup.com
Accessibility-On-Demand

----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron Leventhal" <[hidden email]>
Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.accessibility
To: "Bryan Garaventa" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Alexander Surkov" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ


> This is good criticism.
>
> I would say that our DOM is scriptable but not via IDispatch. For example,
> NVDA is written in Python and can access the Firefox DOM. We have several
> DOM interfaces -- ISimpleDOMNode, ISimpleDOMText and ISimpleDOMDocument
> that provide read only access to the DOM.
>
> Screen readers could use our IDL for these interfaces to make the Firefox
> DOM scriptable.
>
> Similarly, screen readers could use the IDL for IAccessible2 to provide
> that interfaces to scripters (and not just in Firefox).
>
> On the other hand I'd like to support IDispatch in Firefox. We do have a
> bug open for that. I'm not willing to break any kind of binary
> compatibility, but I'm not sure if that would be necessary.
>
> - Aaron
>

_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Scriptability [was Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ]

Aaron Leventhal-3
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
Bryan,

Forgive me for being done. What would the property be on? You can get to
the ISimpleDOMNode tree by taking taking any IAccessible* and doing
QueryInterface to ISimpleDOMNode.

It's scriptable if the screen reader includes the IDL and binds it. I
don't know exactly how it's done, but NVDA uses all of Firefox's a11y
interfaces in script.

Keep in mind, that one difference with IE is that Firefox only uses COM
for the Windows a11y stuff. Com is not usable for a general solution in
a cross platform product.

- Aaron


Bryan Garaventa wrote:

> (Woops, forgot to reply to all...)
>
> Would it be possible to expose a public property within FF that
> represents the live DOM? I know that the functionality is more MSAA
> based, but if such a property could default to the ISimpleDOMNode
> interface, then it could be directly accessed using any screen reader
> scripting language without requiring additional development from the
> screen reader manufacturers to add a compatible interface within the
> scripting language, which wouldn't likely happen any time soon given
> their current pace of development.
>
> If such a DOM property were exposed in FF, it would act similarly to
> IE's MSHTML.Document property, which could then be scripted. All that
> would need be done, is that the DOM property be bound to the main doc
> object so it would update accordingly at runtime. Well, I think, not
> being an FF developer.
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Bryan Garaventa
> Senior Accessibility Engineer
> SSB + BART Group
> [hidden email]
> www.SSBBartGroup.com
> Accessibility-On-Demand
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Leventhal"
> <[hidden email]>
> Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.accessibility
> To: "Bryan Garaventa" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "Alexander Surkov" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 11:12 AM
> Subject: Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ
>
>
>> This is good criticism.
>>
>> I would say that our DOM is scriptable but not via IDispatch. For
>> example, NVDA is written in Python and can access the Firefox DOM. We
>> have several DOM interfaces -- ISimpleDOMNode, ISimpleDOMText and
>> ISimpleDOMDocument that provide read only access to the DOM.
>>
>> Screen readers could use our IDL for these interfaces to make the
>> Firefox DOM scriptable.
>>
>> Similarly, screen readers could use the IDL for IAccessible2 to
>> provide that interfaces to scripters (and not just in Firefox).
>>
>> On the other hand I'd like to support IDispatch in Firefox. We do have
>> a bug open for that. I'm not willing to break any kind of binary
>> compatibility, but I'm not sure if that would be necessary.
>>
>> - Aaron
>>
>


_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Scriptability [was Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ]

Bryan Garaventa-2
No problem, it's a bit confusing for me as well, since I'm only familiar
with Windows programming methods.

To back up a bit, my interest is to obtain the DOM tree equivalent within
the JAWS scripting environment as an object reference. Since I work in the
accessibility field, this information would be immensely valuable for
obtaining data within html elements, such as attribute values, innerHTML,
etc. Also, this would allow for diagnostic utilities to be created within
the screen reader scripting language, which would allow users to examine the
tree at runtime to debug web apps. The value for this capability is
limitless really. This would also allow screen reader scriptors to
supplement current web apps with customized scripts that would make the web
apps more accessible.

There is a built in function within JAWS called IEGetCurrentDocument, which
returns the DOM that currently has focus within the screen reader. This
object is obtained as a ByRef object within the browser, so the various
nodes can be retrieved or changed within the browser instance at runtime
using standard object oriented commands like

let LiveDOM = IEGetCurrentDocument()
let FrameCount = LiveDOM.frames.length
let TargetInnerHTML = LiveDOM.getElementById("MyTarget").innerHTML

In this way, JAWS scriptors can create powerful solutions within web-based
environments to retrieve and parse data. Unfortunately though, since there
is no similar function for the Firefox browser, all of these solutions are
limited to IE.

However, there is a way within the JAWS scripting language, to instantiate a
ByRef COM object. This object can then be used to run various methods that
are publically available to that object. This would be the only way for a
JAWS scriptor to access the correct object if this were available within FF.

Is there any way to instantiate an instance of IAccessible using COM? As an
example, by using VB or by any other Windows scripting language? This is the
only way that I can see it working for a screen reader. This would allow the
JAWS scriptor to instantiate an object that was of type IAccessible, which,
presumably, could then call the method QueryInterface like so...

let FFDOMNode = IAccessibleObj.QueryInterface

This assumes that QueryInterface is a toggle, I wasn't really sure about
this when reading the docs. Of course the class name of the COM object would
need to be known in advance, in order to create the COM object instance like
so...

let IAccessibleObj = CreateObject("Firefox/IAccessible")

"Firefox/IAccessible" being the COM object NameSpace/Class string. I realize
this would only be a Windows compatible solution, but it appears to be an
unavoidable situation given the current AT limitations we have to work
around.

Hopefully this helps a bit.

Best wishes,

Bryan


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bryan Garaventa
Senior Accessibility Engineer
SSB + BART Group
[hidden email]
www.SSBBartGroup.com
Accessibility-On-Demand


----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron Leventhal" <[hidden email]>
To: "Bryan Garaventa" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "dev-accessibility Firefox" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 12:59 PM
Subject: Scriptability [was Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ]


> Bryan,
>
> Forgive me for being done. What would the property be on? You can get to
> the ISimpleDOMNode tree by taking taking any IAccessible* and doing
> QueryInterface to ISimpleDOMNode.
>
> It's scriptable if the screen reader includes the IDL and binds it. I
> don't know exactly how it's done, but NVDA uses all of Firefox's a11y
> interfaces in script.
>
> Keep in mind, that one difference with IE is that Firefox only uses COM
> for the Windows a11y stuff. Com is not usable for a general solution in a
> cross platform product.
>
> - Aaron
>
>
> Bryan Garaventa wrote:
>> (Woops, forgot to reply to all...)
>>
>> Would it be possible to expose a public property within FF that
>> represents the live DOM? I know that the functionality is more MSAA
>> based, but if such a property could default to the ISimpleDOMNode
>> interface, then it could be directly accessed using any screen reader
>> scripting language without requiring additional development from the
>> screen reader manufacturers to add a compatible interface within the
>> scripting language, which wouldn't likely happen any time soon given
>> their current pace of development.
>>
>> If such a DOM property were exposed in FF, it would act similarly to
>> IE's MSHTML.Document property, which could then be scripted. All that
>> would need be done, is that the DOM property be bound to the main doc
>> object so it would update accordingly at runtime. Well, I think, not
>> being an FF developer.
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Bryan Garaventa
>> Senior Accessibility Engineer
>> SSB + BART Group
>> [hidden email]
>> www.SSBBartGroup.com
>> Accessibility-On-Demand
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Leventhal"
>> <[hidden email]>
>> Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.accessibility
>> To: "Bryan Garaventa" <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: "Alexander Surkov" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 11:12 AM
>> Subject: Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ
>>
>>
>>> This is good criticism.
>>>
>>> I would say that our DOM is scriptable but not via IDispatch. For
>>> example, NVDA is written in Python and can access the Firefox DOM. We
>>> have several DOM interfaces -- ISimpleDOMNode, ISimpleDOMText and
>>> ISimpleDOMDocument that provide read only access to the DOM.
>>>
>>> Screen readers could use our IDL for these interfaces to make the
>>> Firefox DOM scriptable.
>>>
>>> Similarly, screen readers could use the IDL for IAccessible2 to
>>> provide that interfaces to scripters (and not just in Firefox).
>>>
>>> On the other hand I'd like to support IDispatch in Firefox. We do have
>>> a bug open for that. I'm not willing to break any kind of binary
>>> compatibility, but I'm not sure if that would be necessary.
>>>
>>> - Aaron
>>>
>>
>
>

_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Scriptability [was Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ]

James Teh-2
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
In Python, you can access any COM interface specified in idl if you can
generate a typelib for it. This is how NVDA accesses MSAA and
IAccessible2. Note that we do not use ISimpleDOM.

As far as I know, in order to access COM objects from JAWS, they need to
support IDispatch. As I understand it, Mozilla does not support
IDispatch on its accessibility COM objects.

Although you can access MSAA objects from JAWS (again, assuming they
support IDispatch), you cannot use QueryInterface because QueryInterface
accepts an interface, which JAWS scripting can't support. There is no
way to add a property to access ISimpleDOM from MSAA, because MSAA
(IAccessible) is a predefined interface; you can't add arbitrary
properties without creating a new interface (which may or may not be a
subclass of an existing interface).

Even if Mozilla did support IDispatch on its COM objects, screen readers
really should provide a way to get access to the current Firefox
document object, similar to the way they do for IE> Without this, the
only way to access the current document would be to provide some sort of
COM automation object which could be retrieved with GetActiveObject
(known as GetObject in JAWS). This could be potentially unreliable. It
could perhaps be improved by accepting the root window handle of the
document or some such. I still think screen reader scripting languages
need to provide some sort of support; it cannot properly be done without
something from the screen readers.

Jamie

Aaron Leventhal wrote:

> Bryan,
>
> Forgive me for being done. What would the property be on? You can get to
> the ISimpleDOMNode tree by taking taking any IAccessible* and doing
> QueryInterface to ISimpleDOMNode.
>
> It's scriptable if the screen reader includes the IDL and binds it. I
> don't know exactly how it's done, but NVDA uses all of Firefox's a11y
> interfaces in script.
>
> Keep in mind, that one difference with IE is that Firefox only uses COM
> for the Windows a11y stuff. Com is not usable for a general solution in
> a cross platform product.
>
> - Aaron

--
James Teh
Email: [hidden email]
WWW: http://www.jantrid.net/
MSN Messenger: [hidden email]
Jabber: [hidden email]
Yahoo: jcs_teh
_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Scriptability [was Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ]

Bryan Garaventa-2
Thanks, that explanation helps.

Does anyone have a way of doing this from VB6? For instance, some sample
code that shows how to access the IAccessible interface through this method?

If it is possible for me to make a function within VB6 that can access the
current running instance of Firefox, and then access its IAccessible
interface, would it be possible for me to get the DOM from this? I know I'm
missing a few steps here, for instance where IDL fits into the picture, but
if this is possible, it may go a long way to solving the problem. At least
for me that is.

It is easy for me to create an ActiveX control that I can instantiate from
within JAWS, and then pass and receive data from the object's methods and
functions.

So if I could create a function in VB6 that detects the current browser
window, perhaps by passing the window handle to the ActiveX control, it
could presumably access the IAccessible interface using IDispatch, then do
what is necessary to get a copy of the DOM as mentioned before. This could
then be stored into a public property within the ActiveX. The DOM should be
bound at that point while the object remains instantiated within the JAWS
script.

I've done this before using IE, and successfully retrieved the document
object.

Again, I think I'm missing some pretty important points to get it working,
such as the part that refers to the IDL lib, so some further info would be
much appreciated. I assume I need to generate the IDL dll lib and use this
as a reference within the VB6 ActiveX? This would make sense if so.

Thanks,

Bryan


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bryan Garaventa
Senior Accessibility Engineer
SSB + BART Group
[hidden email]
www.SSBBartGroup.com
Accessibility-On-Demand

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Teh" <[hidden email]>
Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.accessibility
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: Scriptability [was Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ]


> In Python, you can access any COM interface specified in idl if you can
> generate a typelib for it. This is how NVDA accesses MSAA and
> IAccessible2. Note that we do not use ISimpleDOM.
>
> As far as I know, in order to access COM objects from JAWS, they need to
> support IDispatch. As I understand it, Mozilla does not support
> IDispatch on its accessibility COM objects.
>
> Although you can access MSAA objects from JAWS (again, assuming they
> support IDispatch), you cannot use QueryInterface because QueryInterface
> accepts an interface, which JAWS scripting can't support. There is no
> way to add a property to access ISimpleDOM from MSAA, because MSAA
> (IAccessible) is a predefined interface; you can't add arbitrary
> properties without creating a new interface (which may or may not be a
> subclass of an existing interface).
>
> Even if Mozilla did support IDispatch on its COM objects, screen readers
> really should provide a way to get access to the current Firefox
> document object, similar to the way they do for IE> Without this, the
> only way to access the current document would be to provide some sort of
> COM automation object which could be retrieved with GetActiveObject
> (known as GetObject in JAWS). This could be potentially unreliable. It
> could perhaps be improved by accepting the root window handle of the
> document or some such. I still think screen reader scripting languages
> need to provide some sort of support; it cannot properly be done without
> something from the screen readers.
>
> Jamie
>
> Aaron Leventhal wrote:
>> Bryan,
>>
>> Forgive me for being done. What would the property be on? You can get to
>> the ISimpleDOMNode tree by taking taking any IAccessible* and doing
>> QueryInterface to ISimpleDOMNode.
>>
>> It's scriptable if the screen reader includes the IDL and binds it. I
>> don't know exactly how it's done, but NVDA uses all of Firefox's a11y
>> interfaces in script.
>>
>> Keep in mind, that one difference with IE is that Firefox only uses COM
>> for the Windows a11y stuff. Com is not usable for a general solution in
>> a cross platform product.
>>
>> - Aaron
>
> --
> James Teh
> Email: [hidden email]
> WWW: http://www.jantrid.net/
> MSN Messenger: [hidden email]
> Jabber: [hidden email]
> Yahoo: jcs_teh
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility 

_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: New: Firefox 3 with Screen Readers FAQ

Jason White-14
In reply to this post by Aaron Leventhal-3
On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 05:37:13PM +0200, Aaron Leventhal wrote:
> I'd like to hear more about Fire Vox from the community first.

It's important, innovative and useful.

I plan to install it and get it running with Emacspeak, at which point I'll
have more comments to add.

It ought to be mentioned in the FAQ and in the list of accessibility-related
extensions.

_______________________________________________
dev-accessibility mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
1234