Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
61 messages Options
1234
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Frank Wein
Chris Ilias wrote:

> _gwtc_ spoke thusly on 02/01/2006 4:17 PM:
>> Chris Ilias wrote:
>>>
>>> I guess now is as good a time as any to mention that both Google
>>> Groups and Giganews filter out messages with binary attachments in
>>> text groups. Google and Giganews treat SMIME signatures as binary
>>> attachments. (TXT, CSS, and ICS files are okay.)
>>
>> Good, then maybe we'll see less of those vcards.  And what about those
>> who use enigmail with PGP or GPG?  Do those messages get filtered out,
>> too?
>
> Messages with...
> vCards: not filtered
> PGP or GPG: I'm pretty sure they aren't filtered.
Lets make a test, this message is GPG/MIME signed, do you see this
message Chris?

Frank
(posted&mailed)


signature.asc (258 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Chris Ilias
_Frank Wein_ spoke thusly on 02/01/2006 6:00 PM:
> Chris Ilias wrote:
>
>> Messages with...
>> vCards: not filtered
>> PGP or GPG: I'm pretty sure they aren't filtered.
>
> Lets make a test, this message is GPG/MIME signed, do you see this
> message Chris?

Loud and clear.
Also shows on Google:
http://groups.google.com/group/netscape.public.mozilla.seamonkey/msg/21129983b6e7bf95
--
Chris Ilias - Mozilla Champion
Netscape/Mozilla Links <http://ilias.ca>
Mozilla Help <http://mozillahelp.com>
_______________________________________________
Mozilla-seamonkey mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozilla-seamonkey
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Ruediger Lahl
In reply to this post by Frank Wein
Frank Wein wrote:

> The new news server/infrastructure will be hosted by GigaNews, but of
> course access to the news server news.mozilla.org will remain free as it
> is right now :).
[...]
> http://www.mozilla.org/community/newsgroups.txt, there the new newsgroup
> hierarchy can be found.

Are the new newsgroups already active? I can't find them on
news.mozilla.org.
--
best regards
_______________________________________________
Mozilla-seamonkey mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozilla-seamonkey
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Chris Ilias
_Ruediger Lahl_ spoke thusly on 02/01/2006 7:49 PM:
> Are the new newsgroups already active? I can't find them on
> news.mozilla.org.

No, they're not available yet. For more info on the transition see:
http://ilias.ca/blog/2005/12/gradual-transition.html

I've also created a 'New Mozilla News Server Information' page, which
should cover all enquiries.
http://ilias.ca/newsserverinfo.html
(Should I move it to wiki.mozilla.org?)

BTW, is it you or your software, that is ignoring the follow-up header?
--
Chris Ilias - Mozilla Champion
Netscape/Mozilla Links <http://ilias.ca>
Mozilla Help <http://mozillahelp.com>
_______________________________________________
Mozilla-seamonkey mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozilla-seamonkey
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Ruediger Lahl
Chris Ilias wrote:

>> Are the new newsgroups already active? I can't find them on
>> news.mozilla.org.
>
> No, they're not available yet. For more info on the transition see:
> http://ilias.ca/blog/2005/12/gradual-transition.html

Thank you.

> BTW, is it you or your software, that is ignoring the follow-up header?

Sorry, I only read .seamonkey and forgot to announce the fup-break.
--
best regards
_______________________________________________
Mozilla-seamonkey mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozilla-seamonkey
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Emily Jackson-2
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias
>>>>> "Chris" == Chris Ilias <[hidden email]> writes:

    Chris> Ruediger Lahl_ spoke thusly on 02/01/2006 7:49 PM:
    >> Are the new newsgroups already active? I can't find them on
    >> news.mozilla.org.

    Chris> No, they're not available yet. For more info on the
    Chris> transition see:
    Chris> http://ilias.ca/blog/2005/12/gradual-transition.html

    Chris> I've also created a 'New Mozilla News Server Information'
    Chris> page, which should cover all enquiries.
    Chris> http://ilias.ca/newsserverinfo.html (Should I move it to
    Chris> wiki.mozilla.org?)

Will Giganews customers who directly subscribe to GN be able to read
these groups via GN's news server?

Thanks,

Emily

--
"If it seem slow, wait for it; it will surely come, it will not delay."
Emily Jackson
E-mail address altered; reply to m5comp AT fastmail DOT fm
<http://home.hiwaay.net/~emilyj/missjackson.html>
_______________________________________________
Mozilla-seamonkey mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozilla-seamonkey
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Michael Lefevre
On 2006-01-03, Emily Jackson <[hidden email]> wrote:
[snip]
>
> Will Giganews customers who directly subscribe to GN be able to read
> these groups via GN's news server?

Yes. At least that is clearly implied by the FAQ at
http://www.mozilla.org/community/giganews-migration.html

"Will the newsgroups be propagated to Usenet at large?
... It's been decided, at least initially, to limit propagation to only
GigaNews and Google Groups. We have agreements in place with both services
to not propagate messages any further."

--
Michael
_______________________________________________
Mozilla-seamonkey mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozilla-seamonkey
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Chris Ilias
_Michael Lefevre_ spoke thusly on 03/01/2006 9:16 AM:

> On 2006-01-03, Emily Jackson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> [snip]
>> Will Giganews customers who directly subscribe to GN be able to read
>> these groups via GN's news server?
>
> Yes. At least that is clearly implied by the FAQ at
> http://www.mozilla.org/community/giganews-migration.html
>
> "Will the newsgroups be propagated to Usenet at large?
> ... It's been decided, at least initially, to limit propagation to only
> GigaNews and Google Groups. We have agreements in place with both services
> to not propagate messages any further."

According to Dave Miller, "That was only intending to refer to our news
server hosted by them. Although if they do wind up visible to anyone
with a Giganews account, I don't think we'll complain. :)"
http://groups.google.com/group/netscape.public.mozilla.webtools/msg/a5c3124742809c54

news.mozilla.org and news.giganews.com will actually be the same server
(or, I guess, cluster of servers).
--
Chris Ilias - Mozilla Champion
Netscape/Mozilla Links <http://ilias.ca>
Mozilla Help <http://mozillahelp.com>
_______________________________________________
Mozilla-seamonkey mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozilla-seamonkey
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Gervase Markham
In reply to this post by Ruediger Lahl
Ruediger Lahl wrote:
> Frank Wein wrote:
>
>> So the new news group hierarchy will not be propagated to the rest of
>> the Usenet like before, you can only find the new groups on
>> news.mozilla.org, GigaNews servers and on Google Groups then.
>
> Sad, truly sad ...

Why? news.mozilla.org can be accessed by anyone. We aren't cutting
anyone's newsfeed off.

Gerv
_______________________________________________
Mozilla-seamonkey mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozilla-seamonkey
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Gervase Markham
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias
Chris Ilias wrote:
> Not going to usenet is the 'anti-spam measure'. Besides, as I understand
> it, Google access will be read-only.

We're not sure about that yet, actually. We hope that, if there are no
downsides, it can be read/write.

Gerv
_______________________________________________
Mozilla-seamonkey mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozilla-seamonkey
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

John A.-2
In reply to this post by Gervase Markham
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:53:27 +0000, Gervase Markham <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>Ruediger Lahl wrote:
>> Frank Wein wrote:
>>
>>> So the new news group hierarchy will not be propagated to the rest of
>>> the Usenet like before, you can only find the new groups on
>>> news.mozilla.org, GigaNews servers and on Google Groups then.
>>
>> Sad, truly sad ...
>
>Why? news.mozilla.org can be accessed by anyone. We aren't cutting
>anyone's newsfeed off.

Generally speaking, people like to have all the groups they read
together in one place.

And many people's preferred newsreaders are not
Mozilla/Thunderbird/Seamonkey, so they won't come preconfigured to see
news.mozilla.org (as I assume the Mozilla newsreaders are.)

And many of those newsreaders don't support multiple servers.

And many people who would need support the most wouldn't know how to
go about setting up an additional news server.

I just don't think it's a particularly smart or useful policy to
require users to do extra configuration to gain access to support,
particularly via a newsgroup. It just adds needless barriers, and that
will only hurt Mozilla in the end.
_______________________________________________
Mozilla-seamonkey mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozilla-seamonkey
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Christian Biesinger
John A. wrote:
> And many people's preferred newsreaders are not
> Mozilla/Thunderbird/Seamonkey, so they won't come preconfigured to see
> news.mozilla.org (as I assume the Mozilla newsreaders are.)

That assumption is wrong...
_______________________________________________
Mozilla-seamonkey mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozilla-seamonkey
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by John A.-2
On 05.01.2006 08:43, John A. wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> And many people's preferred newsreaders are not
> Mozilla/Thunderbird/Seamonkey, so they won't come preconfigured to see
> news.mozilla.org (as I assume the Mozilla newsreaders are.)

There are no Mozilla-based apps that I am aware of that come
pre-configured for ANY news servers.

>
> And many of those newsreaders don't support multiple servers.

More do than don't AFAIK.

--
Jay Garcia Netscape Champion
UFAQ - http://www.UFAQ.org
_______________________________________________
Mozilla-seamonkey mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozilla-seamonkey
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Leonidas Jones
In reply to this post by John A.-2
John A. wrote:

> On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:53:27 +0000, Gervase Markham <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Ruediger Lahl wrote:
>>> Frank Wein wrote:
>>>
>>>> So the new news group hierarchy will not be propagated to the rest of
>>>> the Usenet like before, you can only find the new groups on
>>>> news.mozilla.org, GigaNews servers and on Google Groups then.
>>> Sad, truly sad ...
>> Why? news.mozilla.org can be accessed by anyone. We aren't cutting
>> anyone's newsfeed off.
>
> Generally speaking, people like to have all the groups they read
> together in one place.

Do you have documentation of that?

For myself, and a number of others, I much prefer having separate
accounts for specific issues.  news.mozilla.org has my Mozilla groups,
secnews.netscape.net has Moz user support groups (I'll miss that),
news.gmane.org has my OO.o groups, etc.  With them all lumped together,
I would have more trouble keeping track of where I am.

>
> And many people's preferred newsreaders are not
> Mozilla/Thunderbird/Seamonkey, so they won't come preconfigured to see
> news.mozilla.org (as I assume the Mozilla newsreaders are.)

>
> And many of those newsreaders don't support multiple servers.


Not true at all.  OE, Xnews, NC4 can all access multiple servers, as I
would think any modern newsreader can. I can get news.mozilla.org on any
one of the. The Mozilla products do not come preconfigured with any
accounts at all.

>
> And many people who would need support the most wouldn't know how to
> go about setting up an additional news server.

To access newsgroups at all, they have to be able to set up at least one
server.  If you've done one, the others are not that hard to do.

>
> I just don't think it's a particularly smart or useful policy to
> require users to do extra configuration to gain access to support,
> particularly via a newsgroup. It just adds needless barriers, and that
> will only hurt Mozilla in the end.

The great unwashed don't really even know what a newsgroup is. Look at
the proliferation of Google Groups posters here.  Many of these folks
only found newsgroups by doing a Google search for a problem.

I wouldn't mind Google Groups having read/write access, if they would
just clean up their lousy interface.

Lee
_______________________________________________
Mozilla-seamonkey mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozilla-seamonkey
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Michael Lefevre
In reply to this post by John A.-2
On 2006-01-05, John A <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:53:27 +0000, Gervase Markham <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>>Ruediger Lahl wrote:
>>> Frank Wein wrote:
>>>
>>>> So the new news group hierarchy will not be propagated to the rest of
>>>> the Usenet like before, you can only find the new groups on
>>>> news.mozilla.org, GigaNews servers and on Google Groups then.
>>>
>>> Sad, truly sad ...
>>
>>Why? news.mozilla.org can be accessed by anyone. We aren't cutting
>>anyone's newsfeed off.
>
> Generally speaking, people like to have all the groups they read
> together in one place.
>
> And many people's preferred newsreaders are not
> Mozilla/Thunderbird/Seamonkey, so they won't come preconfigured to see
> news.mozilla.org (as I assume the Mozilla newsreaders are.)
>
> And many of those newsreaders don't support multiple servers.

You say "generally speaking" and "many people", but you seem to be
assuming that people like you (using Agent 2.x) are a majority, which I'm
sure isn't right.

> And many people who would need support the most wouldn't know how to
> go about setting up an additional news server.

The people that need the support most are unlikely to be using something
like Agent as a newsreader. In fact, they're unlikely to be using
newsgroups at all. The web-based message boards are far more active for
user support.

> I just don't think it's a particularly smart or useful policy to
> require users to do extra configuration to gain access to support,
> particularly via a newsgroup. It just adds needless barriers, and that
> will only hurt Mozilla in the end.

The user support newsgroups have always been on secnews, which certainly
requires extra configuration - it requires a secure connection to a
dedicated server.  These groups that are currently propagated are the
developer groups.  For support groups, this is removing a barrier rather
than adding more...

The limited number of Agent 2.x users who want to read developer groups
are probably quite capable of doing the additional configuration
necessary.

--
Michael
_______________________________________________
Mozilla-seamonkey mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozilla-seamonkey
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Chris Ilias
In reply to this post by John A.-2
_John A._ spoke thusly on 05/01/2006 9:43 AM:
> And many people who would need support the most wouldn't know how to
> go about setting up an additional news server.
>
> I just don't think it's a particularly smart or useful policy to
> require users to do extra configuration to gain access to support,
> particularly via a newsgroup. It just adds needless barriers, and that
> will only hurt Mozilla in the end.

I know others have addressed your points, but I just wanted to add that,
presumably, when everything is set up, there will be direct links to
newsgroups on the Mozilla website. In other words, a user looking for
support goes to http://www.mozilla.com/support/ , and there will be
links, such as
news://news.mozilla.org/mozilla.support.firefox

No manual set-up required.
--
Chris Ilias - Mozilla Champion
Netscape/Mozilla Links <http://ilias.ca>
Mozilla Help <http://mozillahelp.com>
_______________________________________________
Mozilla-seamonkey mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozilla-seamonkey
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Martin Bagge / brother
In reply to this post by Ron Lopshire
Ron Lopshire wrote:
> 1) I realize that the SeaMonkey core code comes from Mozilla/Netscape.
> The SeaMonkey GUI (and application) is virtually indistinguishable from
> Netscape 7.2. I have not personally used the Mozilla Suite.

Not really but that's not interesting here.

> 2) It is my understanding, based on the posts of others in various Moz
> NGs, that the SeaMonkey development team is no longer with Mozilla,
> including the Foundation, mozilla.org and mozilla.com. If that is wrong,
> please correct me.

Kaiser made it pretty clear.

> 3) It is my understanding, based on the posts of others in various Moz
> NGs, that Mozilla (whatever that is, was or will be) decided to abandon
> the Suite approach to network clienting, and go with two different
> products ... Firefox as an internet browser, and Thunderbird as an
> email/NNTP client. No Suite. If that is wrong, please correct me.

MoFo didn't want to spend time on the suite, that's why dedicated people
 founded the new project. A project MoFo supports with hardware and such.

> 4) IE and OE are two different GUIs using the same core functions of the
> MS OS. *and som snipped out bla bla*

That's your opinion, I don't share it.

> 5) As I said, I don't agree with the direction that Mozilla has taken by
> abandoning the Suite approach. The idea that most IE/OE users prefer two
> different products is ridiculous.

Once again you make up tour mind from your part of the spectra and I
have another opinion. And for what it's worth, your wrong in the
baseline about abondoning the suite.

> 6) The most important things that Mozilla and SeaMonkey have going for
> them is that their apps are 1) not MS, and 2) secure. This is the niche
> that appeals to most FF, TB, Mozilla Suite and Netscape users. Trying to
> emulate IE and OE is abandoning that niche.

First part is pretty correct, I'm not convinced about the second one
though. I hardly know anyone using OE at all, mostly it's the cousin
that's used or for the majority a webbased agent like gmail or even hotmail.

--
/Martin Bagge
mail: [hidden email]
PGP:  http://martin.bagge.nu/pgp.asc
web:  http://martin.bagge.nu
_______________________________________________
Mozilla-seamonkey mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozilla-seamonkey
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Ron Lopshire
Martin Bagge / brother wrote:

>
> Once again you make up tour mind from your part of the spectra and I
> have another opinion. And for what it's worth, your wrong in the
> baseline about abondoning the suite.
>

I surely hope that you are right, Martin.

Thanks for your reply, much appreciated. As I said, concerns, nothing
more.

Ron :)
_______________________________________________
Mozilla-seamonkey mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozilla-seamonkey
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

PeEmm
In reply to this post by Chris Ilias
John A. wrote:

>>FWIW, the decision of whether not to propagate to usenet affects so many
>>other characteristics than spam. I think it was just a matter of the
>>cons outweighing the pros. Plus, as the Giganews migration FAQ states,
>>"deciding to allow propagation is an irreversible decision so we're
>>starting out the "safe" way. :) "
>
>
> Which other characteristics?

I'd guess another "characteristics" is the possibility of effectively
deleting unwanted messages: insults, hate postings, troll posts, and
generally controversial posts or excessively critical opinions.
--
/P.M.
_______________________________________________
Mozilla-seamonkey mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozilla-seamonkey
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Chris Ilias
_PeEmm_ spoke thusly on 08/01/2006 11:18 AM:

> John A. wrote:
>
>>> FWIW, the decision of whether not to propagate to usenet affects so
>>> many other characteristics than spam.
>>
>> Which other characteristics?
>
> I'd guess another "characteristics" is the possibility of effectively
> deleting unwanted messages: insults, hate postings, troll posts, and
> generally controversial posts or excessively critical opinions.

"excessively critical opinions"? Everyone has got the right to an opinion.

Let's not forget the ability to remove a group, once it's no longer
needed. Having to deal with the inability to remove any of the current
netscape.public.mozilla* groups has been a big pain. Usenet is
eventually going to become a wasteland of obsolete newsgroups.

If this had happened a little over two years ago, there would be a group
called Firebird.
--
Chris Ilias - Mozilla Champion
Netscape/Mozilla Links <http://ilias.ca>
Mozilla Help <http://mozillahelp.com>
_______________________________________________
Mozilla-seamonkey mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozilla-seamonkey
1234