Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

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Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Frank Wein
Hi,
as you may have already read somewhere on the web, the migration to the
new news server will finally take part in January 2006 (probably first
half of it). Connected to this is the migration to new newsgroup hierarchy.
The new news server/infrastructure will be hosted by GigaNews, but of
course access to the news server news.mozilla.org will remain free as it
is right now :). So the new news group hierarchy will not be propagated
to the rest of the Usenet like before, you can only find the new groups
on news.mozilla.org, GigaNews servers and on Google Groups then.
If you don't know the new newsgroup hierarchy yet, take a look at
http://www.mozilla.org/community/newsgroups.txt, there the new newsgroup
hierarchy can be found.
If you still have questions take a look at the FAQ under
http://www.mozilla.org/community/giganews-migration.html first.

Frank
f'up2 netscape.public.mozilla.general set
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Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Ruediger Lahl
Frank Wein wrote:

> So the new news group hierarchy will not be propagated to the rest of
> the Usenet like before, you can only find the new groups on
> news.mozilla.org, GigaNews servers and on Google Groups then.

Sad, truly sad ...
--
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Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

John A.-2
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:10:42 +0100, Ruediger Lahl
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>Frank Wein wrote:
>
>> So the new news group hierarchy will not be propagated to the rest of
>> the Usenet like before, you can only find the new groups on
>> news.mozilla.org, GigaNews servers and on Google Groups then.
>
>Sad, truly sad ...

Yup. Not that things are perfect now. I've always thought that having
the developer groups propagated while user groups are not is a bit
backwards. Particularly so for users who don't install or use the
mail/news component or T-bird.

Are the current groups going away? If so, I say let's start a parallel
set under alt.mozilla instead of netscape.public.mozilla. If they want
to take their ball and go home, we'll make our own ball and keep
playing.

JA
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Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Ruediger Lahl
John A. wrote:

>>Sad, truly sad ...
>
> If so, I say let's start a parallel set under alt.mozilla instead of
> netscape.public.mozilla. If they want to take their ball and go home,
> we'll make our own ball and keep playing.

Splitting the traffic is worse. We should swallow the toad.
--
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Re: Thanks for migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Sean Vickery (remove the blood-smeared Nordics to email)
In reply to this post by Frank Wein
Frank Wein wrote:

> as you may have already read somewhere on the web, the migration to the
> new news server will finally take part in January 2006 (probably first
> half of it). Connected to this is the migration to new newsgroup hierarchy.
> The new news server/infrastructure will be hosted by GigaNews, but of
> course access to the news server news.mozilla.org will remain free as it
> is right now :). So the new news group hierarchy will not be propagated
> to the rest of the Usenet like before, you can only find the new groups
> on news.mozilla.org, GigaNews servers and on Google Groups then.
> If you don't know the new newsgroup hierarchy yet, take a look at
> http://www.mozilla.org/community/newsgroups.txt, there the new newsgroup
> hierarchy can be found.
> If you still have questions take a look at the FAQ under
> http://www.mozilla.org/community/giganews-migration.html first.

When this is done you'll have my thanks, Frank.

I am an end user of Firefox, Thunderbird and have also used
Calendar/Sunbird. I am also a computer technician. Firefox and
Thunderbird and handy to install on computers I set up for clients.

I try to keep up with a little of the technical discussion on
n.p.m.seamonkey, which used to be the group for discussing architecture.
Unfortunately since the taking of the name seamonkey by the people
continuing the suite there's less and less discussion about the trunk
applications' architecture in this group.

After the newsgroup reorg I envisage my reading options getting much better.

cheers all
sean vickery
--
"Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny. Free men pull in
all kinds of directions." -- Terry Pratchett, The Truth
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Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Karsten Düsterloh
In reply to this post by Ruediger Lahl
Ruediger Lahl aber hob zu reden an und schrieb:
>> If so, I say let's start a parallel set under alt.mozilla instead of
>> netscape.public.mozilla. If they want to take their ball and go home,
>> we'll make our own ball and keep playing.
>
> Splitting the traffic is worse.

Yeah. Don't do that.
(Having non-English groups in other hierarchies is quite welcome, of
course, to help non-English users, of course.)

> We should swallow the toad.

Well, first of all, news.mozilla.org will still be there and usable by
everyone - but I do hope they get the spam issue resolved.
That's why I do read npm.* over individual.net - they're running a very
effective CleanFeed installation.
But mentioning Google Groups as an anti-spam measure is bad hoax...

We'll see.


Karsten
--
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Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Chris Ilias
_Karsten Düsterloh_ spoke thusly:
> But mentioning Google Groups as an anti-spam measure is bad hoax...
>
> We'll see.

I don't know where anyone said going to Google Groups was an anti-spam
measure. The primary reason for going to Google is to have a searchable
archive.
--
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Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Karsten Düsterloh
Chris Ilias aber hob zu reden an und schrieb:
> _Karsten Düsterloh_ spoke thusly:
>> But mentioning Google Groups as an anti-spam measure is bad hoax...
>>
>>
>> We'll see.
>
> I don't know where anyone said going to Google Groups was an
> anti-spam measure.

The FAQ says:

> Will the newsgroups be propagated to Usenet at large? Will the
> newsgroups be accessible through Google Groups?
>
> These two questions are connected; propagation has both upsides and
> downsides. The downsides are that propagation means that we can't
> really do post deletions, and a failure to control spam may affect
> developer participation. It's been decided, at least initially, to
> limit propagation to only GigaNews and Google Groups. We have
> agreements in place with both services to not propagate messages any
> further. Based on feedback from the community, this may change at
> some point in the future, but deciding to allow propagation is an
> irreversible decision so we're starting out the "safe" way. :)



Karsten
--
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Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Ron Lopshire
Karsten Düsterloh wrote:

> Chris Ilias aber hob zu reden an und schrieb:
>
>>_Karsten Düsterloh_ spoke thusly:
>>
>>>But mentioning Google Groups as an anti-spam measure is bad hoax...
>>>
>>>
>>>We'll see.
>>
>>I don't know where anyone said going to Google Groups was an
>>anti-spam measure.
>
>
> The FAQ says:
>
>
>>Will the newsgroups be propagated to Usenet at large? Will the
>>newsgroups be accessible through Google Groups?
>>
>>These two questions are connected; propagation has both upsides and
>>downsides. The downsides are that propagation means that we can't
>>really do post deletions, and a failure to control spam may affect
>>developer participation. It's been decided, at least initially, to
>>limit propagation to only GigaNews and Google Groups. We have
>>agreements in place with both services to not propagate messages any
>>further. Based on feedback from the community, this may change at
>>some point in the future, but deciding to allow propagation is an
>>irreversible decision so we're starting out the "safe" way. :)
>
> Karsten

Since the decision by Mozilla to abandon the Suite, I am not sure that
I like where Mozilla is going anyway. And since SeaMonkey doesn't fall
under the Mozilla umbrella, I would favor a total break with
AOL/Netscape/Mozilla including NG and Fora(Forums). I realize that
this may be just wishful thinking, since the finances are probably not
in place to allow such a break at this time. At any rate, that is just
my opinion.

Ron :)
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Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Karsten Düsterloh
Ron Lopshire aber hob zu reden an und schrieb:
> Since the decision by Mozilla to abandon the Suite, I am not sure
> that I like where Mozilla is going anyway. And since SeaMonkey
> doesn't fall under the Mozilla umbrella,

SeaMonkey is still a Mozilla project, even though no product.
SeaMonkey development is still part of everyday's trunk work, i.e.
SeaMonkey shares most core parts with FF & co.

> I would favor a total break with AOL/Netscape/Mozilla including NG
> and Fora(Forums).

What should be the meaning of that?
The SeaMonkey project aims at keeping the suite on track with
contemporary development, we don't want to recreate the world.
What good would a codebase split do? None, IMO.

> I realize that this may be just wishful thinking, since the finances
> are probably not in place to allow such a break at this time.

That's not "wishful thinking", that's hopefully never happening. ;-)

> At any rate, that is just my opinion.

As things currently stand - despite some problems we have - this is
definitely not the opinion of the SeaMonkey project.


Karsten
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Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Ron Lopshire
Karsten Düsterloh wrote:

> Ron Lopshire aber hob zu reden an und schrieb:
>
>>Since the decision by Mozilla to abandon the Suite, I am not sure
>>that I like where Mozilla is going anyway. And since SeaMonkey
>>doesn't fall under the Mozilla umbrella,
>
>
> SeaMonkey is still a Mozilla project, even though no product.
> SeaMonkey development is still part of everyday's trunk work, i.e.
> SeaMonkey shares most core parts with FF & co.
>
>
>>I would favor a total break with AOL/Netscape/Mozilla including NG
>>and Fora(Forums).
>
>
> What should be the meaning of that?
> The SeaMonkey project aims at keeping the suite on track with
> contemporary development, we don't want to recreate the world.
> What good would a codebase split do? None, IMO.
>
>
>>I realize that this may be just wishful thinking, since the finances
>>are probably not in place to allow such a break at this time.
>
>
> That's not "wishful thinking", that's hopefully never happening. ;-)
>
>
>>At any rate, that is just my opinion.
>
>
> As things currently stand - despite some problems we have - this is
> definitely not the opinion of the SeaMonkey project.
>
>
> Karsten

Karsten,

1) I realize that the SeaMonkey core code comes from Mozilla/Netscape.
The SeaMonkey GUI (and application) is virtually indistinguishable
from Netscape 7.2. I have not personally used the Mozilla Suite.

2) It is my understanding, based on the posts of others in various Moz
NGs, that the SeaMonkey development team is no longer with Mozilla,
including the Foundation, mozilla.org and mozilla.com. If that is
wrong, please correct me.

3) It is my understanding, based on the posts of others in various Moz
NGs, that Mozilla (whatever that is, was or will be) decided to
abandon the Suite approach to network clienting, and go with two
different products ... Firefox as an internet browser, and Thunderbird
as an email/NNTP client. No Suite. If that is wrong, please correct me.

4) IE and OE are two different GUIs using the same core functions of
the MS OS. (Try to uninstall them on WinXP and see what happens.) And
with each subsequent OS, the distinctions seem to become less and
less. I can use IE to search through my HD, for crying out loud.
Evidently MS sees no distinction between a file on some malware
writer's server and one on my HD.

5) As I said, I don't agree with the direction that Mozilla has taken
by abandoning the Suite approach. The idea that most IE/OE users
prefer two different products is ridiculous. Most IE/OE users use IE
and OE because that is what came with their OS, and that is all that
they have ever used. Ask most PC users what browser they use and they
will say, "What's a browser?"

6) The most important things that Mozilla and SeaMonkey have going for
them is that their apps are 1) not MS, and 2) secure. This is the
niche that appeals to most FF, TB, Mozilla Suite and Netscape users.
Trying to emulate IE and OE is abandoning that niche. I already have
those POS apps on my WinXP box, and I prefer not to use them.

I have been using Netscape since Netscape 2.0, and as I said, I am
very concerned, in many ways, about the direction of Mozilla WRT their
internet applications.

Ron :)
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Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Michael Vincent van Rantwijk
In reply to this post by Karsten Düsterloh
Karsten Düsterloh wrote:

> Ron Lopshire aber hob zu reden an und schrieb:
>> Since the decision by Mozilla to abandon the Suite, I am not sure
>> that I like where Mozilla is going anyway. And since SeaMonkey
>> doesn't fall under the Mozilla umbrella,
>
> SeaMonkey is still a Mozilla project, even though no product.
> SeaMonkey development is still part of everyday's trunk work, i.e.
> SeaMonkey shares most core parts with FF & co.
>
>> I would favor a total break with AOL/Netscape/Mozilla including NG
>> and Fora(Forums).
>
> What should be the meaning of that?
> The SeaMonkey project aims at keeping the suite on track with
> contemporary development, we don't want to recreate the world.
> What good would a codebase split do? None, IMO.

Ron, you are obviously missing the real meaning of friends like the
Mozilla Foundation/Corporation, because the SeaMonkey counsel/developers
can't do it without the support of the Mozilla Foundation/Corporation,
just think about the used infrastructure.

>> I realize that this may be just wishful thinking, since the finances
>> are probably not in place to allow such a break at this time.
>
> That's not "wishful thinking", that's hopefully never happening. ;-)

A split like that will most likely end in the end of SeaMonkey
project...which I hope, just like all SeaMonkey supporters, will never
happen.

>> At any rate, that is just my opinion.
>
> As things currently stand - despite some problems we have - this is
> definitely not the opinion of the SeaMonkey project.

Karsten, what are these problems exactly, if I may ask?
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Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Chris Ilias
In reply to this post by Karsten Düsterloh
_Karsten Düsterloh_ spoke thusly:

> Chris Ilias aber hob zu reden an und schrieb:
>> I don't know where anyone said going to Google Groups was an
>> anti-spam measure.
>
> The FAQ says:
>
>> Will the newsgroups be propagated to Usenet at large? Will the
>> newsgroups be accessible through Google Groups?
>>
>> These two questions are connected; propagation has both upsides and
>> downsides. The downsides are that propagation means that we can't
>> really do post deletions, and a failure to control spam may affect
>> developer participation. It's been decided, at least initially, to
>> limit propagation to only GigaNews and Google Groups. We have
>> agreements in place with both services to not propagate messages any
>> further. Based on feedback from the community, this may change at
>> some point in the future, but deciding to allow propagation is an
>> irreversible decision so we're starting out the "safe" way. :)

Not going to usenet is the 'anti-spam measure'. Besides, as I understand
it, Google access will be read-only.
--
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Netscape/Mozilla Links <http://ilias.ca>
Mozilla Help <http://mozillahelp.com>
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Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Ron Lopshire
In reply to this post by Michael Vincent van Rantwijk
Michael Vincent van Rantwijk wrote:

> Karsten Düsterloh wrote:
>
>> Ron Lopshire aber hob zu reden an und schrieb:
>>
>>> Since the decision by Mozilla to abandon the Suite, I am not sure
>>> that I like where Mozilla is going anyway. And since SeaMonkey
>>> doesn't fall under the Mozilla umbrella,
>>
>>
>> SeaMonkey is still a Mozilla project, even though no product.
>> SeaMonkey development is still part of everyday's trunk work, i.e.
>> SeaMonkey shares most core parts with FF & co.
>>
>>> I would favor a total break with AOL/Netscape/Mozilla including NG
>>> and Fora(Forums).
>>
>>
>> What should be the meaning of that?
>> The SeaMonkey project aims at keeping the suite on track with
>> contemporary development, we don't want to recreate the world.
>> What good would a codebase split do? None, IMO.
>
>
> Ron, you are obviously missing the real meaning of friends like the
> Mozilla Foundation/Corporation, because the SeaMonkey counsel/developers
> can't do it without the support of the Mozilla Foundation/Corporation,
> just think about the used infrastructure.
>
>>> I realize that this may be just wishful thinking, since the finances
>>> are probably not in place to allow such a break at this time.
>>
>>
>> That's not "wishful thinking", that's hopefully never happening. ;-)
>
>
> A split like that will most likely end in the end of SeaMonkey
> project...which I hope, just like all SeaMonkey supporters, will never
> happen.
>
>>> At any rate, that is just my opinion.
>>
>>
>> As things currently stand - despite some problems we have - this is
>> definitely not the opinion of the SeaMonkey project.
>
>
> Karsten, what are these problems exactly, if I may ask?

Michael,

See my reply to Karsten. My post was based on the belief that the
SeaMonkey group split with Mozilla over, as the saying goes, creative
differences. This belief is based on posts by others who, IMO, should
be in a position to know whether or not this is true. As I said, I
have concerns about the direction that FF and TB are taking. I much
prefer the Suite approach, i.e., SeaMonkey.

Not trying to step on any toes, here. Just concerns, that's all. FF
and TB, are, after all, still not IE and OE. One would hope that this
would remain so.

Ron :)
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Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Rinaldi J. Montessi-4
Ron Lopshire wrote:

=====

> See my reply to Karsten. My post was based on the belief that the
> SeaMonkey group split with Mozilla over, as the saying goes, creative
> differences. This belief is based on posts by others who, IMO, should
> be in a position to know whether or not this is true. As I said, I
> have concerns about the direction that FF and TB are taking. I much
> prefer the Suite approach, i.e., SeaMonkey.

My understanding is Mozilla wanted to scrap the Suite and concentrate on
Firefox and Thunderbird, whereas the Seamonkey group wanted to see the
Suite continue.  I think there are no losers here.

Rinaldi
--
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of nothing.
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Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Philip Chee
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 22:47:45 -0500, Rinaldi J. Montessi wrote:

> My understanding is Mozilla wanted to scrap the Suite and concentrate on
> Firefox and Thunderbird, whereas the Seamonkey group wanted to see the
> Suite continue.  I think there are no losers here.

Not just "wanted to scrap". They DID scrap Mozilla Suite, just before the
final Mozilla Suite 1.8beta, annoying the hell out of a lot of people who
contributed a lot of code to the Suite on the belief that 1.8 was going to
be released in the same time frame as Firefox 1.5.

Phil
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oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
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Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Rinaldi J. Montessi-4
Philip Chee wrote:

> On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 22:47:45 -0500, Rinaldi J. Montessi wrote:
>
>> My understanding is Mozilla wanted to scrap the Suite and concentrate on
>> Firefox and Thunderbird, whereas the Seamonkey group wanted to see the
>> Suite continue.  I think there are no losers here.
>
> Not just "wanted to scrap". They DID scrap Mozilla Suite, just before the
> final Mozilla Suite 1.8beta, annoying the hell out of a lot of people who
> contributed a lot of code to the Suite on the belief that 1.8 was going to
> be released in the same time frame as Firefox 1.5.

IIRC the Mozilla Suite code went into SeaMonkey.  What am I missing?  I
interpret your message to indicate the code (labor) went into the bit
bucket.  Clarify please.

I have been building Mozilla/SeaMonkey from CVS two to three times a
week since I can't remember when and don't recall any hiccups during the
transition.

Rinaldi
--
A witty saying proves nothing, but saying something pointless gets
people's attention.
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Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Philip Chee
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 00:26:15 -0500, Rinaldi J. Montessi wrote:
> Philip Chee wrote:

>> Not just "wanted to scrap". They DID scrap Mozilla Suite, just before the
>> final Mozilla Suite 1.8beta, annoying the hell out of a lot of people who
>> contributed a lot of code to the Suite on the belief that 1.8 was going to
>> be released in the same time frame as Firefox 1.5.

> IIRC the Mozilla Suite code went into SeaMonkey.  What am I missing?  I
> interpret your message to indicate the code (labor) went into the bit
> bucket.  Clarify please.

It would have gone into the bit bucket (Mozilla 1.8 was killed off just
before release) if not for a brave bunch of volunteers who stepped up to the
plate.

> I have been building Mozilla/SeaMonkey from CVS two to three times a
> week since I can't remember when and don't recall any hiccups during the
> transition.

Well you should thank the Seamonkey council for that. Before the Seamonkey
council was formed there was no further development path for the Suite.

Phil
--
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Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarchy

Rinaldi J. Montessi-4
Philip Chee wrote:
------
> It would have gone into the bit bucket (Mozilla 1.8 was killed off just
> before release) if not for a brave bunch of volunteers who stepped up to the
> plate.

Perhaps behind the scenes that may have been a reality; but to me on the
outside looking in the transition seemed flawless.  Good PR control I guess.

>> I have been building Mozilla/SeaMonkey from CVS two to three times a
>> week since I can't remember when and don't recall any hiccups during the
>> transition.
>
> Well you should thank the Seamonkey council for that. Before the Seamonkey
> council was formed there was no further development path for the Suite.

Thanks for the information.  And thanks again to the SeaMonkey council.
 It's nice to know that all the machines I've installed the suite on
won't be left in the lurch.

Rinaldi
--
An elephant is a mouse with an operating system.
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Re: Migration to new news server and reorganization of netscape.public.* hierarc

Simon Paquet
In reply to this post by Ron Lopshire
Ron Lopshire wrote on 31.12.2005:

> See my reply to Karsten. My post was based on the belief that the
> SeaMonkey group split with Mozilla over, as the saying goes, creative
> differences. This belief is based on posts by others who, IMO, should
> be in a position to know whether or not this is true.

The split was not over creative differences, but over QA ressources. The
Mozilla Foundation wanted to concentrate on its flagship products FF and
TB and didn't want to release Suite releases which weren't up to par
with
the quality one could expect from a official Mozilla product.

So they announced the end of the Mozilla Suite and asked volunteers to
step up and continue to maintain the Suite under a new name, which is
what happened.


--
Simon Paquet
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