Migrating to a better communication tool

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Migrating to a better communication tool

Alexander Craggs

Thought I'd move the topic of a new communication tool to it's own thread.  So that it doesn't pollute the (already polluted) removal of language features thread.

I took agree with Mark, I think it's time to move away from a mailing list and the obvious choice for discussions like this is a forum.  Discourse is one option, but I'd also like to put our NodeBB[0] as another option.

Thoughts of how it might be better than the current mailing list:

 - Doesn't pollute my inbox, option to subscribe and unsubscribe to particular threads.

 - Stops replies from showing up on some mail clients (https://puu.sh/wThmq/ae276dd806.png)

 - Universal formatting.  esdiscuss.org seems to break formatting sometimes (or put it in an attachement).

Negatives:

 - People who already have a good system setup for mailing lists will have to get used to working with a forum system.

 - Will require either a OAuth account (Github perhaps?) or an extra username and password.

[0] https://github.com/NodeBB/NodeBB

I hope more people read and search https://esdiscuss.org/ and engage with history instead of coming as if to a blank slate.

In all fairness, es-discuss is rather ancient in the way it works. I personally would recommend es-discuss coming up with a better way to keep track of its threads. The current setup is rather confusing, imo. FWIW, I personally would recommend Discourse. I agree with you on the same topics coming up constantly though.

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Re: Migrating to a better communication tool

kdex
I personally wouldn't mind using a forum instead.

Another downside of this mailing list is that it doesn't really play nice with
DKIM/DMARC, at least in my experience.

On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 6:00:16 AM CEST Alexander Craggs wrote:

> Thought I'd move the topic of a new communication tool to it's own thread.
>  So that it doesn't pollute the (already polluted) removal of language
> features thread.
>
> I took agree with Mark, I think it's time to move away from a mailing list
> and the obvious choice for discussions like this is a forum.  Discourse is
> one option, but I'd also like to put our NodeBB[0] as another option.
>
> Thoughts of how it might be better than the current mailing list:
>
>  - Doesn't pollute my inbox, option to subscribe and unsubscribe to
> particular threads.
>
>  - Stops replies from showing up on some mail clients
> (https://puu.sh/wThmq/ae276dd806.png)
>
>  - Universal formatting.  esdiscuss.org seems to break formatting sometimes
> (or put it in an attachement).
>
> Negatives:
>
>  - People who already have a good system setup for mailing lists will have
> to get used to working with a forum system.
>
>  - Will require either a OAuth account (Github perhaps?) or an extra
> username and password.
>
> [0] https://github.com/NodeBB/NodeBB
> I hope more people read and search https://esdiscuss.org
> [https://esdiscuss.org/]/ and engage with history instead of coming as if
> to a blank slate.
>
> In all fairness, es-discuss is rather ancient in the way it works. I
> personally would recommend es-discuss coming up with a better way to keep
> track of its threads. The current setup is rather confusing, imo. FWIW, I
> personally would recommend Discourse [https://www.discourse.org/]. I agree
> with you on the same topics coming up constantly though.
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Re: Migrating to a better communication tool

Claude Pache
In reply to this post by Alexander Craggs
Previous discussion:


—Claude 


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Re: Migrating to a better communication tool

Boris Cherny
In reply to this post by Alexander Craggs
How about a subreddit (or private subreddit)? reddit.com/r/esdiscuss is available.

Some prior art for high quality communities where language authors hang around: r/scalar/haskell (I’m sure there are more).

On Jul 25, 2017, at 10:31 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Send es-discuss mailing list submissions to
[hidden email]

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
[hidden email]

You can reach the person managing the list at
[hidden email]

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of es-discuss digest..."
Today's Topics:

  1. Migrating to a better communication tool (Alexander Craggs)
  2. Re: Migrating to a better communication tool (kdex)
  3. Re: Return value of forEach (Naveen Chawla)
  4. Re: Migrating to a better communication tool (Claude Pache)

From: "Alexander Craggs" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Migrating to a better communication tool
Date: July 25, 2017 at 9:00:16 PM PDT



Thought I'd move the topic of a new communication tool to it's own thread.  So that it doesn't pollute the (already polluted) removal of language features thread.

I took agree with Mark, I think it's time to move away from a mailing list and the obvious choice for discussions like this is a forum.  Discourse is one option, but I'd also like to put our NodeBB[0] as another option.

Thoughts of how it might be better than the current mailing list:

 - Doesn't pollute my inbox, option to subscribe and unsubscribe to particular threads.

 - Stops replies from showing up on some mail clients (https://puu.sh/wThmq/ae276dd806.png)

 - Universal formatting.  esdiscuss.org seems to break formatting sometimes (or put it in an attachement).

Negatives:

 - People who already have a good system setup for mailing lists will have to get used to working with a forum system.

 - Will require either a OAuth account (Github perhaps?) or an extra username and password.

[0] https://github.com/NodeBB/NodeBB

I hope more people read and search https://esdiscuss.org/ and engage with history instead of coming as if to a blank slate.

In all fairness, es-discuss is rather ancient in the way it works. I personally would recommend es-discuss coming up with a better way to keep track of its threads. The current setup is rather confusing, imo. FWIW, I personally would recommend Discourse. I agree with you on the same topics coming up constantly though.



From: kdex <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Migrating to a better communication tool
Date: July 25, 2017 at 9:26:09 PM PDT


I personally wouldn't mind using a forum instead.

Another downside of this mailing list is that it doesn't really play nice with
DKIM/DMARC, at least in my experience.

On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 6:00:16 AM CEST Alexander Craggs wrote:
Thought I'd move the topic of a new communication tool to it's own thread.
So that it doesn't pollute the (already polluted) removal of language
features thread.

I took agree with Mark, I think it's time to move away from a mailing list
and the obvious choice for discussions like this is a forum.  Discourse is
one option, but I'd also like to put our NodeBB[0] as another option.

Thoughts of how it might be better than the current mailing list:

- Doesn't pollute my inbox, option to subscribe and unsubscribe to
particular threads.

- Stops replies from showing up on some mail clients
(https://puu.sh/wThmq/ae276dd806.png)

- Universal formatting.  esdiscuss.org seems to break formatting sometimes
(or put it in an attachement).

Negatives:

- People who already have a good system setup for mailing lists will have
to get used to working with a forum system.

- Will require either a OAuth account (Github perhaps?) or an extra
username and password.

[0] https://github.com/NodeBB/NodeBB
I hope more people read and search https://esdiscuss.org
[https://esdiscuss.org/]/ and engage with history instead of coming as if
to a blank slate.

In all fairness, es-discuss is rather ancient in the way it works. I
personally would recommend es-discuss coming up with a better way to keep
track of its threads. The current setup is rather confusing, imo. FWIW, I
personally would recommend Discourse [https://www.discourse.org/]. I agree
with you on the same topics coming up constantly though.



From: Naveen Chawla <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Return value of forEach
Date: July 25, 2017 at 10:19:47 PM PDT
To: "T.J. Crowder" <[hidden email]>


On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 at 12:09 T.J. Crowder <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 5:06 AM, Naveen Chawla <[hidden email]> wrote:
I would not overload `each` with any early termination, I would probably have an `Array.prototype.takeWhile` method for that (which returns a new array taking elements while the return value of the predicate is truthy).

This is for when you don't want to create a new array, for either semantic or memory pressure reasons.

-- T.J. Crowder

For that I would have `eachWhile` which returns the original array but only iterates while the return value of the supplied callback is truthy. The difference with `takeWhile` (which should be added to ES regardless, along with `skipWhile`) is that in chaining calls `takeWhile` provides a potentially smaller array for further processing, whereas `eachWhile` doesn't. (`eachSkipWhile` could be the "skipWhile" counterpart to `eachWhile`).

I would leave `each` as a contract: always iterates through every value, always returns the original array.

For me this is better for readability.

If these chained calls `map`, `each` etc. can be integrated with async iterators (as RxJs attempts with Observables) then some really elegant stuff can happen!



From: Claude Pache <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Migrating to a better communication tool
Date: July 25, 2017 at 10:31:24 PM PDT
To: Alexander Craggs <[hidden email]>




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Re: Migrating to a better communication tool

Sebastian Malton
I propose something list how rust does it. They have a git repo for RFCs and that allows people to to star it or just follow the ones that they want to follow.

Sebastian 

Sent: July 26, 2017 1:53 AM
Subject: Re: Migrating to a better communication tool

How about a subreddit (or private subreddit)? reddit.com/r/esdiscuss is available.

Some prior art for high quality communities where language authors hang around: r/scalar/haskell (I’m sure there are more).

On Jul 25, 2017, at 10:31 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Send es-discuss mailing list submissions to
[hidden email]

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
[hidden email]

You can reach the person managing the list at
[hidden email]

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of es-discuss digest..."
Today's Topics:

  1. Migrating to a better communication tool (Alexander Craggs)
  2. Re: Migrating to a better communication tool (kdex)
  3. Re: Return value of forEach (Naveen Chawla)
  4. Re: Migrating to a better communication tool (Claude Pache)

From: "Alexander Craggs" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Migrating to a better communication tool
Date: July 25, 2017 at 9:00:16 PM PDT



Thought I'd move the topic of a new communication tool to it's own thread.  So that it doesn't pollute the (already polluted) removal of language features thread.

I took agree with Mark, I think it's time to move away from a mailing list and the obvious choice for discussions like this is a forum.  Discourse is one option, but I'd also like to put our NodeBB[0] as another option.

Thoughts of how it might be better than the current mailing list:

 - Doesn't pollute my inbox, option to subscribe and unsubscribe to particular threads.

 - Stops replies from showing up on some mail clients (https://puu.sh/wThmq/ae276dd806.png)

 - Universal formatting.  esdiscuss.org seems to break formatting sometimes (or put it in an attachement).

Negatives:

 - People who already have a good system setup for mailing lists will have to get used to working with a forum system.

 - Will require either a OAuth account (Github perhaps?) or an extra username and password.

[0] https://github.com/NodeBB/NodeBB

I hope more people read and search https://esdiscuss.org/ and engage with history instead of coming as if to a blank slate.

In all fairness, es-discuss is rather ancient in the way it works. I personally would recommend es-discuss coming up with a better way to keep track of its threads. The current setup is rather confusing, imo. FWIW, I personally would recommend Discourse. I agree with you on the same topics coming up constantly though.



From: kdex <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Migrating to a better communication tool
Date: July 25, 2017 at 9:26:09 PM PDT


I personally wouldn't mind using a forum instead.

Another downside of this mailing list is that it doesn't really play nice with
DKIM/DMARC, at least in my experience.

On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 6:00:16 AM CEST Alexander Craggs wrote:
Thought I'd move the topic of a new communication tool to it's own thread.
So that it doesn't pollute the (already polluted) removal of language
features thread.

I took agree with Mark, I think it's time to move away from a mailing list
and the obvious choice for discussions like this is a forum.  Discourse is
one option, but I'd also like to put our NodeBB[0] as another option.

Thoughts of how it might be better than the current mailing list:

- Doesn't pollute my inbox, option to subscribe and unsubscribe to
particular threads.

- Stops replies from showing up on some mail clients
(https://puu.sh/wThmq/ae276dd806.png)

- Universal formatting.  esdiscuss.org seems to break formatting sometimes
(or put it in an attachement).

Negatives:

- People who already have a good system setup for mailing lists will have
to get used to working with a forum system.

- Will require either a OAuth account (Github perhaps?) or an extra
username and password.

[0] https://github.com/NodeBB/NodeBB
I hope more people read and search https://esdiscuss.org
[https://esdiscuss.org/]/ and engage with history instead of coming as if
to a blank slate.

In all fairness, es-discuss is rather ancient in the way it works. I
personally would recommend es-discuss coming up with a better way to keep
track of its threads. The current setup is rather confusing, imo. FWIW, I
personally would recommend Discourse [https://www.discourse.org/]. I agree
with you on the same topics coming up constantly though.



From: Naveen Chawla <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Return value of forEach
Date: July 25, 2017 at 10:19:47 PM PDT
To: "T.J. Crowder" <[hidden email]>


On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 at 12:09 T.J. Crowder <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 5:06 AM, Naveen Chawla <[hidden email]> wrote:
I would not overload `each` with any early termination, I would probably have an `Array.prototype.takeWhile` method for that (which returns a new array taking elements while the return value of the predicate is truthy).

This is for when you don't want to create a new array, for either semantic or memory pressure reasons.

-- T.J. Crowder

For that I would have `eachWhile` which returns the original array but only iterates while the return value of the supplied callback is truthy. The difference with `takeWhile` (which should be added to ES regardless, along with `skipWhile`) is that in chaining calls `takeWhile` provides a potentially smaller array for further processing, whereas `eachWhile` doesn't. (`eachSkipWhile` could be the "skipWhile" counterpart to `eachWhile`).

I would leave `each` as a contract: always iterates through every value, always returns the original array.

For me this is better for readability.

If these chained calls `map`, `each` etc. can be integrated with async iterators (as RxJs attempts with Observables) then some really elegant stuff can happen!



From: Claude Pache <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Migrating to a better communication tool
Date: July 25, 2017 at 10:31:24 PM PDT
To: Alexander Craggs <[hidden email]>




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Re: Migrating to a better communication tool

T.J. Crowder-2
On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Sebastian Malton

> I propose something list how rust does it. They have a git repo for
> RFCs and that allows people to to star it or just follow the ones
> that they want to follow.

You can do that with the github repos used by TC39 proposals.

This thread isn't about proposals/RFCs, it's about moving the general conversations in es-discuss away from email into Something Else.

But again, this has [all been discussed][1]. I don't see anything in that thread about whether it was actually discussed at the July 2015 meeting(s) as Brendan Eich suggested; I don't find anything relevant in the meeting notes for all three meetings if I search for "es-discuss", "email", "mailing", or "discourse".

-- T.J. Crowder


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Re: Migrating to a better communication tool

Mike Samuel
In reply to this post by Claude Pache
On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 1:31 AM, Claude Pache <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Previous discussion:
>
> https://esdiscuss.org/topic/move-es-discuss-to-discuss-webplatform-org

TLDR, that thread raises several issues

* email requires browser use.  This was later acknowledged as ironic,
but there was pushback
  on account that standards should require few prerequisites to access.
  HTTP was listed as one prereq and reading between the lines, account
systems whose TOS
  insist on real names or age claims.
* long term archival survival is a requirement.  email archiving is
well understood and independent of
  vendor survival
* fora make it easier to mute specific threads.  Means in specific
email clients discussed.
* fora make it easier to ignore users, and set digest periods.
* we can have both: http://es-discourse.com/
* ECMA could host.  There was laughter
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Re: Migrating to a better communication tool

Alexander Craggs
In reply to this post by T.J. Crowder-2
> requires browser use

Nope.  Both Discourse + NodeBB allow the ability to use them as a mailing list.  Thus, they require nothing more to use than the current system.  (You require a browser to sign up, but mailing lists here require the same thing as well).

> long term archival

I would argue it is significantly simpler with a forum as opposed to emails.  For NodeBB something like the following should be used:

```
mongoexport --db nodebb --out dump.json
```

JSON being a significantly more supported format than the mail format.  

> muting can be done in clients

Can't ignore by tag and my clients don't support it.  So what if this is just the same?  We've discussed numerous other advantages it would provide

> we can have both

I honestly think having both forum and mailing list will just result in disjointed conversations.  They either need to mirror each other or we need to use just one.  

If hosting is an issue, then I'd be willing to provide funding / host it myself.  Any concerns about it going down could be sorted just with a daily cron job to back everything up to some publicly accessible dump hosted by another party.

On 26/07/2017 13:53:12, T.J. Crowder <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Sebastian Malton

> I propose something list how rust does it. They have a git repo for
> RFCs and that allows people to to star it or just follow the ones
> that they want to follow.

You can do that with the github repos used by TC39 proposals.

This thread isn't about proposals/RFCs, it's about moving the general conversations in es-discuss away from email into Something Else.

But again, this has [all been discussed][1]. I don't see anything in that thread about whether it was actually discussed at the July 2015 meeting(s) as Brendan Eich suggested; I don't find anything relevant in the meeting notes for all three meetings if I search for "es-discuss", "email", "mailing", or "discourse".

-- T.J. Crowder

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Re: Re: Migrating to a better communication tool

Brandon Andrews
In reply to this post by Alexander Craggs
Previous discussion:

https://esdiscuss.org/topic/meta-proposal-switch-es-discuss-from-a-mailing-list-to-using-the-tc39-github-issue-tracker-for-discussion

I argued there for using Github issues in the TC39 account and covered every concern brought up. I'll point out it's trivial to use github's API to convert all of the mailing list into individual issues.


Also I've noticed people don't know how mailing lists work. (This should be obvious glancing at any topic brought up). I regularly still get people sending me emails and they don't CC things correctly. If I would hazard a guess there has been hundreds of lost comments from people replying to the mailing list wrong.


That said TC39 would have to decide on this among themselves and they seem indifferent. There's also a common theme among mailing list communities that it keeps the low-effort comments out compared to Github, Discourse, and numerous other platforms.

If it wasn't for esdiscuss.org to view these mailing list I'm not sure I'd even follow these discussions myself. I find it hilarious that using google and searching site:esdiscuss.org is the easiest way to find old threads though. No wonder this thread was made. OP probably couldn't find all the old discussions.
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Re: Re: Migrating to a better communication tool

J Decker


On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 11:58 AM, Brandon Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
Previous discussion:

https://esdiscuss.org/topic/meta-proposal-switch-es-discuss-from-a-mailing-list-to-using-the-tc39-github-issue-tracker-for-discussion

I argued there for using Github issues in the TC39 account and covered every concern brought up. I'll point out it's trivial to use github's API to convert all of the mailing list into individual issues.

How do I get all issues? 


Also I've noticed people don't know how mailing lists work. (This should be obvious glancing at any topic brought up). I regularly still get people sending me emails and they don't CC things correctly. If I would hazard a guess there has been hundreds of lost comments from people replying to the mailing list wrong.

sqlite fixed their list so it doesn't come in from X person and Y person but only from the list so it only goes back to their list... sounds like a configuration issue. 



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Re: Re: Migrating to a better communication tool

Brandon Andrews
In reply to this post by Alexander Craggs
> How do I get all issues?

How to read the mailing list thread by thread? Same way es-discuss does using their tool: https://github.com/esdiscuss/pipermail. Then if one wanted to create an issue for each thread they'd use: https://developer.github.com/v3/issues/#create-an-issue and for the replies: https://developer.github.com/v3/issues/comments/#create-a-comment The biggest issue with this is the API is rate limited. It's trivial to be whitelisted by github when migrating issues so TC39 would have no real issue rapidly creating the issues and comments if they talked to them first.


Granted this might need to be cleaned up either by automated changes to clean up quotes and code or manually if one is bored enough. It would be similar to how esdiscuss.org allowed people to edit posts to clean up formatting so it followed github markup.


> sqlite fixed their list so it doesn't come in from X person and Y person but only from the list so it only goes back to their list... sounds like a configuration issue.

No, as in people just open up their email clients and send a message to just the person they're replying to rather than to [hidden email]. Like they don't know that for everyone to see their reply that it has to go to the mailing list email also. You can see this in old threads where people will reply to people quoting them and the quoted message is nowhere in the mailing list. It's kind of sad really since some of these people just want to provide feedback but their responses are lost forever.
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Re: Re: Migrating to a better communication tool

J Decker


On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Brandon Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
> How do I get all issues?

How to read the mailing list thread by thread? Same way es-discuss does using their tool: https://github.com/esdiscuss/pipermail. Then if one wanted to create an issue for each thread they'd use: https://developer.github.com/v3/issues/#create-an-issue and for the replies: https://developer.github.com/v3/issues/comments/#create-a-comment The biggest issue with this is the API is rate limited. It's trivial to be whitelisted by github when migrating issues so TC39 would have no real issue rapidly creating the issues and comments if they talked to them first.


Granted this might need to be cleaned up either by automated changes to clean up quotes and code or manually if one is bored enough. It would be similar to how esdiscuss.org allowed people to edit posts to clean up formatting so it followed github markup.


Yes, but then I have to visit each issue occasionally in order to make a comment and/or watch an issue instead of just having it show up. 
 
> sqlite fixed their list so it doesn't come in from X person and Y person but only from the list so it only goes back to their list... sounds like a configuration issue.

No, as in people just open up their email clients and send a message to just the person they're replying to rather than to [hidden email]. Like they don't know that for everyone to see their reply that it has to go to the mailing list email also. You can see this in old threads where people will reply to people quoting them and the quoted message is nowhere in the mailing list. It's kind of sad really since some of these people just want to provide feedback but their responses are lost forever.

Exactly, the only thing to respond to in sqlite mails is the mailing list.
 
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Re: Re: Migrating to a better communication tool

Brandon Andrews
In reply to this post by Alexander Craggs
> Yes, but then I have to visit each issue occasionally in order to make a comment and/or watch an issue instead of just having it show up.

On Github you can watch a whole repository and in your notification settings configure it to send you an email whenever a new issue is produced. This is in addition to watching an issue and receiving further notifications. You also get notifications if someone uses @name in a comment which is useful if someone thinks you might be interested or need your input on an issue. This fits well with how most people use issue/ticket systems. I'd say it's very rare for one to want email notifications for every comment ever made on a system since that's usually tied to a phone-based notification. (I've personally never subscribed to a mailing list due to the volume of posts, but I understand some people do read everything).
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Re: Re: Migrating to a better communication tool

Julian Lam
In reply to this post by Alexander Craggs

Hey everyone, I was referred to this conversation by a member of your community and I wanted to drop in and say hello. I hope I’m not running afoul of any house rules :)


Moving from a mailing list format to a forum is certainly going to be an abrupt change for many in your community, and it is definitely not a decision to be made lightly. However, the good news is that there are definitely some fantastic new entrants to the forum space that will allow your community to thrive in a familiar (yet novel!) atmosphere.


To address some comments from late last week:


> … the ability to use them as a mailing list


NodeBB does support this via our Mandrill plugin, although it has been awhile since we’ve had a chance to implement it with any of our managed installs. As you can imagine, not many customers are looking to maintain an active mailing list *and* a forum at the same time. We’d be interested in doing this kind of integration with the SendGrid plugin, actually…


> mute and digest periods


The key shift from a mailing list to a forum is that you’d be approaching topics in more of a “supermarket” style -- browsing for topics that interest you, as opposed to a constant incoming stream of messages that need active curation. In terms of muting topics, you can control notification and visibility at the topic level, but the real advantages come from subdividing discussions into interest categories and controlling notification preferences at the category level.


> cost of hosting


We’ve discussed this internally and we’d be interested in hosting ES Discuss ourselves, as part of our efforts to contribute back to the open-source community that has been so good to us over the years. It’s part of a new initiative (and I use that term fairly loosely) to support more open-source projects in order to foster discussion and build community.


Finally, I am especially struck by the fact that there are issues with mailing lists and messages not being properly propagated back to the list. It’s this kind of curation that forums are especially good for, as they’re centralised in that manner. My hope is that anyone migrating from a mailing-list type of community will see increased adoption and engagement from members both old and new. Of course, I’m sure there are many more questions, so I’ll try my best to be around and see if we can help convince you that forums are the way to go.


Thanks,

Julian, Co-Founder, NodeBB Inc.


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