L10n tool

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L10n tool

Zbigniew Braniecki
Hi all.
I'm developing a L10n tool that should be the ultimate answer to all
problems with localization of Mozilla based projects.
I know that there are some extensions for this like
http://heygom.com/extensions/
http://completelybiased.com/category/tech/mozilla/localite/

but those are featureless and I doubt they can make localization process
really easy.

You can find first info and mockups here http://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Tool
I wrote a blog post about it here http://diary.e-gandalf.net/?p=173

And I'd like to ask for help, anyone who know XUL/JS a bit can make the
work faster. I'd also love to hear your ideas about what should be
there! Smile
If one of the authors of previous extensions is reading this, then I
want to say that I'd love to get your help :)

Greetings
Zbigniew Braniecki
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Re: L10n tool

Ricardo Palomares Martí­nez
Zbigniew Braniecki escribió:
> Hi all.
> I'm developing a L10n tool that should be the ultimate answer to all
> problems with localization of Mozilla based projects.


Funny, I've just agreed to do my final year project which will
hopefully be a *Java* l10n tool for Mozilla based projects (and maybe
others in the future).

My idea is to take the concepts (not the code) on Mozilla Translator
and go beyond. It will undoubtedly take me more time to complete than
you, though (but I *have* to do it, because otherwise I won't get
degree, and I have to do it by myself, so I can't receive any help).

So, maybe in a year two functional tools will be available when no one
is ready right now.

Regards.

--
If it's true that we are here to help others,
then what exactly are the OTHERS here for?
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Re: L10n tool

Zbigniew Braniecki
Ricardo Palomares Martinez napisał(a):

> So, maybe in a year two functional tools will be available when no one
> is ready right now.


Great! We can cooperate, share UI etc!
It's a real pity that you can't do this in Gecko as a part of the
project. Anyway if you'd like to help us at some point, I'll be very
happy :)

Greetings
Zbigniew Braniecki
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Re: L10n tool

Jussi Bergström
In reply to this post by Ricardo Palomares Martí­nez
Ricardo Palomares Martinez kirjoitti:

> Zbigniew Braniecki escribió:
>
>>Hi all.
>>I'm developing a L10n tool that should be the ultimate answer to all
>>problems with localization of Mozilla based projects.
>
>
>
> Funny, I've just agreed to do my final year project which will
> hopefully be a *Java* l10n tool for Mozilla based projects (and maybe
> others in the future).
>
> My idea is to take the concepts (not the code) on Mozilla Translator
> and go beyond. It will undoubtedly take me more time to complete than
> you, though (but I *have* to do it, because otherwise I won't get
> degree, and I have to do it by myself, so I can't receive any help).

I also started developing a L10n tool in Java last summer, with the same
idea of taking the concepts an going beyond.

I have already created working implementations for loading, editing,
synchronizing and updating a jar or a directory, but the tool still
lacks a good and complete UI (I have been really busy for the last few
months).

Too bad that I don't know how to do this in Gecko, or that Ricardo has
to do this by himself, otherwise I could have been of some use...

--
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Re: L10n tool

Sabine Cretella
In reply to this post by Ricardo Palomares Martí­nez
Hi, did you ever check out OmegaT? It can already localise java .bundle
files, works great with html, xhtml, all kinds of OpenOffice.org formats
etc.

It already has a Translation Memory system and in a second stage is
going to be connected to Ultimate Wiktionary through a reference
implementation in order to directly access the glossaries there.
(Ultimate Wiktionary is a further development of Wiktionary).

If you want to know more about this, just let me know.

Best wishes,

Sabine

****
Sabine Cretella
[hidden email]
skype: sabinecretella


Ricardo Palomares Martinez wrote:

>Zbigniew Braniecki escribió:
>  
>
>>Hi all.
>>I'm developing a L10n tool that should be the ultimate answer to all
>>problems with localization of Mozilla based projects.
>>    
>>
>
>
>Funny, I've just agreed to do my final year project which will
>hopefully be a *Java* l10n tool for Mozilla based projects (and maybe
>others in the future).
>
>My idea is to take the concepts (not the code) on Mozilla Translator
>and go beyond. It will undoubtedly take me more time to complete than
>you, though (but I *have* to do it, because otherwise I won't get
>degree, and I have to do it by myself, so I can't receive any help).
>
>So, maybe in a year two functional tools will be available when no one
>is ready right now.
>  
>


       

       
               
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Re: L10n tool

Dwayne Bailey
In reply to this post by Zbigniew Braniecki
I like the fact that this is in XUL/JS it presents some interesting
possibilities.  But do we really need another l10n tool?

On Wed, 2005-11-09 at 23:44 +0100, Zbigniew Braniecki wrote:

> Hi all.
> I'm developing a L10n tool that should be the ultimate answer to all
> problems with localization of Mozilla based projects.
> I know that there are some extensions for this like
> http://heygom.com/extensions/
> http://completelybiased.com/category/tech/mozilla/localite/
>
> but those are featureless and I doubt they can make localization process
> really easy.
>
> You can find first info and mockups here http://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Tool
> I wrote a blog post about it here http://diary.e-gandalf.net/?p=173
>
> And I'd like to ask for help, anyone who know XUL/JS a bit can make the
> work faster. I'd also love to hear your ideas about what should be
> there! Smile
> If one of the authors of previous extensions is reading this, then I
> want to say that I'd love to get your help :)
>
> Greetings
> Zbigniew Braniecki
> _______________________________________________
> mozilla-l10n mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozilla-l10n
--
Dwayne Bailey
Translate.org.za

+27-12-460-1095 (w)
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Re: L10n tool

davidf (Bugzilla)
In reply to this post by Zbigniew Braniecki
Zbigniew Braniecki wrote:

> Hi all.
> I'm developing a L10n tool that should be the ultimate answer to all
> problems with localization of Mozilla based projects.
> I know that there are some extensions for this like
> http://heygom.com/extensions/
> http://completelybiased.com/category/tech/mozilla/localite/
>
> but those are featureless and I doubt they can make localization
> process really easy.

There's also the translate toolkit and Pootle :-)
This gives you a fully web-based translation environment.

> You can find first info and mockups here
> http://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Tool
> I wrote a blog post about it here http://diary.e-gandalf.net/?p=173

Can we get your blog in planet.mozilla.org? Would be nice :-)

> And I'd like to ask for help, anyone who know XUL/JS a bit can make
> the work faster. I'd also love to hear your ideas about what should be
> there! Smile
> If one of the authors of previous extensions is reading this, then I
> want to say that I'd love to get your help :)
>
> Greetings
> Zbigniew Braniecki

Cheers
David
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Re: L10n tool

Yury Tarasievich
In reply to this post by Dwayne Bailey
On 10 November 2005 09:42, Dwayne Bailey wrote:
> I like the fact that this is in XUL/JS it presents some interesting
> possibilities.  But do we really need another l10n tool?

What we really need (what *I* really need :) is a tool for auto-correcting of
the shortcut markers. I have a completed translation which I can't put to
testing because of these problem. :)

-cheers

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Re: L10n tool

davidf (Bugzilla)
Yury Tarasievich wrote:

>On 10 November 2005 09:42, Dwayne Bailey wrote:
>  
>
>>I like the fact that this is in XUL/JS it presents some interesting
>>possibilities.  But do we really need another l10n tool?
>>    
>>
>
>What we really need (what *I* really need :) is a tool for auto-correcting of
>the shortcut markers. I have a completed translation which I can't put to
>testing because of these problem. :)
>  
>
Hi Yury

If you use the translate toolkit, it automatically converts the shortcut
markers so they appear as & before the shortcut character in the string.
It will then detect any errors when converting back

David
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Re: L10n tool

Yury Tarasievich
On 10 November 2005 11:36, David Fraser wrote:
> Yury Tarasievich wrote:
...
> >What we really need (what *I* really need :) is a tool for auto-correcting
> > of the shortcut markers. I have a completed translation which I can't put
> > to testing because of these problem. :)
...
> If you use the translate toolkit, it automatically converts the shortcut
> markers so they appear as & before the shortcut character in the string.
> It will then detect any errors when converting back

Hi David

Yes, I use the toolkit+kbabel in my translations. And yes, toolkit translates
the shortcuts okay.

But I didn't foresee the sensivity of mozilla-like interface to shortcuts
being absent from string to which they are related.
(Initially, I've just left all latin shortcuts as they were.)
Also, UI doesn't seem to like identical shortcuts in scope of one UI element.
Seeing this, I cleared all shortcuts in .dtd's with small script.
Unfortunately, UI doesn't like empty shortcuts either.

So, I'm stuck. :) Perhaps, tools like mozilla translator can help with this?

-regards

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Re: L10n tool

Zbigniew Braniecki
In reply to this post by Zbigniew Braniecki
Dwayne Bailey napisał(a):
> I like the fact that this is in XUL/JS it presents some interesting
> possibilities.  But do we really need another l10n tool?

Well, I'd say yes. I was a Firefox/Thunderbird localizer for pretty long
time and didn't find any useful tool. Of course there are great ones for
.po files, but this is not native for us. It will never be.
So it seems as a good idea to create such a complex, powerful tool.

The fact that we're creating it in Gecko gives us a few nice things like
we could possibly be able to add a "show me" button that would open
specific Firefox window and blink around position of selected entity.

Greetings
Zbigniew Braniecki
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Re: L10n tool

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by Zbigniew Braniecki
Zbigniew Braniecki wrote:
> Hi all.
<...>
>
> You can find first info and mockups here http://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Tool

Maybe it'd be good to have a look at all those web-based l10n tools in
terms of UI tips? Rosetta being not named before.

Stealing UI there may not only be cool from the point of
not-having-to-think-yourself, but also from being familiar to folks
involved in localizations with those tools.

Axel
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Re: L10n tool

davidf (Bugzilla)
In reply to this post by Zbigniew Braniecki
Zbigniew Braniecki wrote:

> Dwayne Bailey napisał(a):
>
>> I like the fact that this is in XUL/JS it presents some interesting
>> possibilities.  But do we really need another l10n tool?
>
>
> Well, I'd say yes. I was a Firefox/Thunderbird localizer for pretty
> long time and didn't find any useful tool. Of course there are great
> ones for .po files, but this is not native for us. It will never be.

Although it may be (probably will be) possible to make Pootle function
directly with Mozilla translations instead of po files.
That said this is obviously a client tool rather than a web based tool
so there is a difference there...

> So it seems as a good idea to create such a complex, powerful tool.
>
> The fact that we're creating it in Gecko gives us a few nice things
> like we could possibly be able to add a "show me" button that would
> open specific Firefox window and blink around position of selected
> entity.

That would be nice

David
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Re: L10n tool

davidf (Bugzilla)
In reply to this post by Zbigniew Braniecki
Gudmund Areskoug wrote:

> Zbigniew Braniecki wrote:
>
>> Dwayne Bailey napisał(a):
>>
>>> I like the fact that this is in XUL/JS it presents some interesting
>>> possibilities.  But do we really need another l10n tool?
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, I'd say yes. I was a Firefox/Thunderbird localizer for pretty
>> long time and didn't find any useful tool. Of course there are great
>> ones for .po files, but this is not native for us. It will never be.
>> So it seems as a good idea to create such a complex, powerful tool.
>>
>> The fact that we're creating it in Gecko gives us a few nice things
>> like we could possibly be able to add a "show me" button that would
>> open specific Firefox window and blink around position of selected
>> entity.
>>
>> Greetings
>> Zbigniew Braniecki
>
>
> Hi guys, I was pointed to this group after posting this question in
> the calendar group:
>
> "why aren't Mozilla projects using the gettext framework, or some
> means to keep translatable resources in xliff format as a standard?
>
> It would IMHO open up for a lot better opportunities to leverage
> translations with dedicated tools and by thus making it easier for new
> translators (and older alike)."
>
> IMHO, the best way of going about a Moz translation tool, would be to
> - use a good existing framework that doesn't force a translator to use
> a particular tool, one where translation in a plain text editor is
> still easy,
> and/or
> - make good, reliable filters for converting Moz translatable material
> back and forth to a (general and open) file format translation tools
> can typically process
> and/or
> - make good, reliable import/export filters for Moz translatable
> material and incorporate those into (open source) translation tools

2) is already done with the translate toolkit. See
http://translate.sourceforge.net/ - it allows you to do gettext to do
the translation, by converting to/from po files.

> That said, I like the idea of many different translation tools, but
> feel sorry in some cases about duplicated efforts and ensuing delays
> in both translation work and tool development.
>
> It's not a bad thing, for someone translating, to be able to use the
> same tool across the whole line, or at least being able to take
> advantage of the same translation databases across the line.

Indeed, particularly when translators are translating more than one
project, it can be frustrating working with different systems

Cheers
David
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Re: L10n tool

Dwayne Bailey
In reply to this post by Yury Tarasievich
On Thu, 2005-11-10 at 11:44 +0200, Yury Tarasievich wrote:

> On 10 November 2005 11:36, David Fraser wrote:
> > Yury Tarasievich wrote:
> ...
> > >What we really need (what *I* really need :) is a tool for auto-correcting
> > > of the shortcut markers. I have a completed translation which I can't put
> > > to testing because of these problem. :)
> ...
> > If you use the translate toolkit, it automatically converts the shortcut
> > markers so they appear as & before the shortcut character in the string.
> > It will then detect any errors when converting back
>
> Hi David
>
> Yes, I use the toolkit+kbabel in my translations. And yes, toolkit translates
> the shortcuts okay.
>
> But I didn't foresee the sensivity of mozilla-like interface to shortcuts
> being absent from string to which they are related.
> (Initially, I've just left all latin shortcuts as they were.)
> Also, UI doesn't seem to like identical shortcuts in scope of one UI element.
> Seeing this, I cleared all shortcuts in .dtd's with small script.
> Unfortunately, UI doesn't like empty shortcuts either.

I'm not sure I understand 100% but have you tried this?

pofilter --mozilla -t accelerators PO PO-check

Edit all the files in PO-check that have errors in the accelerators

pomerge -t PO -i PO-check -o PO

That will merge your fixes from PO-check back into the files in PO.

And of course pofilter -l list the other checks you can perform.

--
Dwayne Bailey
Translate.org.za

+27-12-460-1095 (w)
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Re: L10n tool

Dwayne Bailey
In reply to this post by Zbigniew Braniecki
On Thu, 2005-11-10 at 10:51 +0100, Zbigniew Braniecki wrote:
> Dwayne Bailey napisał(a):
> > I like the fact that this is in XUL/JS it presents some interesting
> > possibilities.  But do we really need another l10n tool?
>
> Well, I'd say yes. I was a Firefox/Thunderbird localizer for pretty long
> time and didn't find any useful tool. Of course there are great ones for
> .po files, but this is not native for us. It will never be.
> So it seems as a good idea to create such a complex, powerful tool.

I still don't see why working at integrating moz2po into PO tools is not
a good solution.

>From my perspective.  OOo and Mozilla presented the greatest
challengees.  Not because they are hard to translate but because they
completely go on their own tangent and don't allow teams to invest
skills in one toolset.  I know that doesn't affect anyonw just doing
Mozilla but there are a growing number of people working on language
centric as apposed to product centric localisation.

We made the decision that it would be easier to write moz2po then to
have to use N different tools.  One for each new project.  That is why
gettext works so well.  Not because its the best - it isn't - but
because it allows sharing.

I'm afraid that other tools grow and any product centric tool would go
limping along and be essentially inferior for localisation.  But will
have so shaped the process that its hard to break out.  Imagine if
Bugzilla was only used by Mozilla instead of a broad range of projects.

The problem I see is if this app takes off it will become the defacto
way to localise Mozilla.  We've tried in the past to give info on the
Mozilla site on how you do it with moz2po but I keep hitting blank
walls.

> The fact that we're creating it in Gecko gives us a few nice things like
> we could possibly be able to add a "show me" button that would open
> specific Firefox window and blink around position of selected entity.

That's a great idea - but I don't see why that requires a special
application.  Wouldn't you achieve the same thing by allowing poEdit to
Open a Mozilla app and make things flash?

--
Dwayne Bailey
Translate.org.za

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Re: L10n tool

Yury Tarasievich
In reply to this post by Dwayne Bailey
On 14 November 2005 09:19, Dwayne Bailey wrote:
...
> > But I didn't foresee the sensivity of mozilla-like interface to shortcuts
> > being absent from string to which they are related.
> > (Initially, I've just left all latin shortcuts as they were.)
> > Also, UI doesn't seem to like identical shortcuts in scope of one UI
> > element. Seeing this, I cleared all shortcuts in .dtd's with small
> > script. Unfortunately, UI doesn't like empty shortcuts either.
>
> I'm not sure I understand 100% but have you tried this?

Thanks Dwayne, I'll try this ASAP. And, could you please clarify what's there
you're unsure you understand? Until now, I believed this problem was
widespread with non-latin scripts?

-cheers

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Re: L10n tool

Dwayne Bailey
On Mon, 2005-11-14 at 14:23 +0200, Yury Tarasievich wrote:

> On 14 November 2005 09:19, Dwayne Bailey wrote:
> ...
> > > But I didn't foresee the sensivity of mozilla-like interface to shortcuts
> > > being absent from string to which they are related.
> > > (Initially, I've just left all latin shortcuts as they were.)
> > > Also, UI doesn't seem to like identical shortcuts in scope of one UI
> > > element. Seeing this, I cleared all shortcuts in .dtd's with small
> > > script. Unfortunately, UI doesn't like empty shortcuts either.
> >
> > I'm not sure I understand 100% but have you tried this?
>
> Thanks Dwayne, I'll try this ASAP. And, could you please clarify what's there
> you're unsure you understand? Until now, I believed this problem was
> widespread with non-latin scripts?

I don't do non-latin scripts ;)  So please let me know if pofilter
actually helps you.

--
Dwayne Bailey
Translate.org.za

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Re: L10n tool

Yury Tarasievich
On 14 November 2005 16:47, Dwayne Bailey wrote:
...
> > > I'm not sure I understand 100% but have you tried this?
> >
> > Thanks Dwayne, I'll try this ASAP. And, could you please clarify what's
> > there you're unsure you understand? Until now, I believed this problem
> > was widespread with non-latin scripts?
>
> I don't do non-latin scripts ;)  So please let me know if pofilter
> actually helps you.

1. Actually, the non-latin script wasn't essential... There seems to be an
error in po2moz, adding extraneous comment closing line '-->' in certain
conditions. Removing this extra line "unblocks" the appropriate part of
interface (thunderbird 1.0.6). Toolkit was rc3.20051029. I'm attaching both
the po and produced .dtd.

2. Some comments on pofilter. It shouldn't change the author and similar
fields in headers, like it's shown in following diff. It should set fuzzy on
every item it produces, which would be much more informative. Some ability to
filter out comment on "no accelerator &" when converting back (or when
merging?) would be nice, if at all possible.
  -"Project-Id-Version: contentAreaCommands.dtd\n"
  -"POT-Creation-Date: 2005-05-30 22:13\n"
  -"PO-Revision-Date: 2005-10-24 00:33+0000\n"
  -"Last-Translator: Yury Tarasievich <[hidden email]>\n"
  -"Language-Team: Belarusian <[hidden email]>\n"
  +"Project-Id-Version: PACKAGE VERSION\n"
  +"Report-Msgid-Bugs-To: \n"
  +"POT-Creation-Date: 2005-11-14 19:27+0000\n"
  +"PO-Revision-Date: YEAR-MO-DA HO:MI+ZONE\n"
  +"Last-Translator: FULL NAME <EMAIL@ADDRESS>\n"
  +"Language-Team: LANGUAGE <[hidden email]>\n"

3. And I'm really disappointed with (much-looked-after) quality of xul code.
Not trivially validating the extension even once? All interface coming down
with no real diagnostics, without possibility to even copy the error output
to clipboard?

-cheers

pref-notifications.dtd (2K) Download Attachment
pref-notifications.dtd.po (3K) Download Attachment
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Re: L10n tool

Zbigniew Braniecki
In reply to this post by Zbigniew Braniecki
Dwayne Bailey napisał(a):
> I still don't see why working at integrating moz2po into PO tools is not
> a good solution.

In the same way as cygwin is not the best solution for linux build
environment.

> The problem I see is if this app takes off it will become the defacto
> way to localise Mozilla.

I promise you, that there won't be anything like that. It will be a
tool, if it'll be good one, you can use it, if not, you can use your own
ones.

> That's a great idea - but I don't see why that requires a special
> application.  Wouldn't you achieve the same thing by allowing poEdit to
> Open a Mozilla app and make things flash?

Nope. It wouldn't be that easy. I believe that we can do many great
things if we'll base this tool on XulRunner/Gecko. That was one of the
examples.

Greetings
Zbigniew Braniecki


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