How do you localize "bundled"?

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How do you localize "bundled"?

flod
Hi localizers,
since I've been fighting with this string for some days, I decided to
ask you how do you deal with this
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=680113

"You" -> Since we're using impersonal style in our localization, this is
translated as "User"
"You (bundled)" -> "User (??)"

Bundled means "distributed with the application", "included in the
application", but you can't simply say "User (included)" or "User
(distribution)", because people won't understand the meaning of this
string. So the question: how do you translate this? There's a one word
equivalent of "bundled" in your language?

Personally I'd really like some sort of caption in that window (e.g.
under the main table) that explain the meaning of each value (you, you
(bundled), third party).

Francesco



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Re: How do you localize "bundled"?

Chris Hofmann-3
On 9/14/11 12:18 AM, flod wrote:

> Hi localizers,
> since I've been fighting with this string for some days, I decided to
> ask you how do you deal with this
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=680113
>
> "You" -> Since we're using impersonal style in our localization, this
> is translated as "User"
> "You (bundled)" -> "User (??)"
>
> Bundled means "distributed with the application", "included in the
> application", but you can't simply say "User (included)" or "User
> (distribution)", because people won't understand the meaning of this
> string. So the question: how do you translate this? There's a one word
> equivalent of "bundled" in your language?

In the bug we used the alternate description "user installed" several
times to describe what the feature is doing and that seems like its
pretty accurate.   I'm confused as to why we just don't use "installed"
instead of "bundled."

Alex?

-chofmann

>
> Personally I'd really like some sort of caption in that window (e.g.
> under the main table) that explain the meaning of each value (you, you
> (bundled), third party).
>
> Francesco
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> [hidden email]
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Re: How do you localize "bundled"?

flod
>
> In the bug we used the alternate description "user installed" several times
> to describe what the feature is doing and that seems like its pretty
> accurate.   I'm confused as to why we just don't use "installed" instead of
> "bundled."
>

I'm not really sure about this, because add-ons installed by users are
already marked as "You" (column label is "Installed by"), while this is a
different situation (add-ons bundled with the application but not "actively"
installed). Right now the only add-on that I found in this group is
TestPilot.

After some discussions, the most reasonable solution seems to bee "You
(preinstalled)", but that's still not completely clear since the connection
between "you" and "preinstallation" is not obvious (IMO the English string
has the same problem). Some people would find "You (preinstalled in/bundled
with $Appname)" clearer, but that's something that Faaborg already excluded
in his comments.

Francesco
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Re: How do you localize "bundled"?

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by Chris Hofmann-3
"Bundled" here means that there's an add-on that came as part of your
download. Our co-package with twitter has one of those, as did the ebay
edition or the kodak thing we did a while back.

The differences here are:

- 3rd party: Read, skype installed a toolbar, or avira did or something
- bundled: You downloaded and installed a firefox with that extension,
so you might not explicitly know, but you probably want that
- You: You yourself consciously installed this very add-on by clicking
through an explicit install experience.

HTH

Axel

On 14.09.11 08:04, flod wrote:

>>
>> In the bug we used the alternate description "user installed" several times
>> to describe what the feature is doing and that seems like its pretty
>> accurate.   I'm confused as to why we just don't use "installed" instead of
>> "bundled."
>>
>
> I'm not really sure about this, because add-ons installed by users are
> already marked as "You" (column label is "Installed by"), while this is a
> different situation (add-ons bundled with the application but not "actively"
> installed). Right now the only add-on that I found in this group is
> TestPilot.
>
> After some discussions, the most reasonable solution seems to bee "You
> (preinstalled)", but that's still not completely clear since the connection
> between "you" and "preinstallation" is not obvious (IMO the English string
> has the same problem). Some people would find "You (preinstalled in/bundled
> with $Appname)" clearer, but that's something that Faaborg already excluded
> in his comments.
>
> Francesco

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Re: How do you localize "bundled"?

Staś Małolepszy
In reply to this post by flod
flod, Wed Sep 14 08:04:51 -0700 2011:

> >
> > In the bug we used the alternate description "user installed" several times
> > to describe what the feature is doing and that seems like its pretty
> > accurate.   I'm confused as to why we just don't use "installed" instead of
> > "bundled."
> >
>
> I'm not really sure about this, because add-ons installed by users are
> already marked as "You" (column label is "Installed by"), while this is a
> different situation (add-ons bundled with the application but not "actively"
> installed). Right now the only add-on that I found in this group is
> TestPilot.
>
> After some discussions, the most reasonable solution seems to bee "You
> (preinstalled)", but that's still not completely clear since the connection
> between "you" and "preinstallation" is not obvious (IMO the English string
> has the same problem). Some people would find "You (preinstalled in/bundled
> with $Appname)" clearer, but that's something that Faaborg already excluded
> in his comments.

I don't have any bright ideas on how to localize this, but... maybe
that string should read 'Firefox' (or 'Mozilla')?  As in, installed by
you, Firefox or 3rd party.

-stas
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mozilla.org
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Re: How do you localize "bundled"?

Justin Wood (Callek)-2
In reply to this post by flod
On 9/15/2011 6:51 PM, Staś Małolepszy wrote:
> flod, Wed Sep 14 08:04:51 -0700 2011:
>
> I don't have any bright ideas on how to localize this, but... maybe
> that string should read 'Firefox' (or 'Mozilla')?  As in, installed by
> you, Firefox or 3rd party.
>

For what it is worth faaborg _explicitly_ did not want Firefox listed in
that string (at least for english). I suspect that would play out
similarly for other languages.

I think of Bundled in this case, as Packaged, basically "some part of
what you got, in the same package", etc.

Like "Google Pack" (which has multiple things)
A "package" from a postal carrier (UPS, United States Postal Service,
Fed Ex, etc.)
A "Bundle" as in a hiking-kit (incl sleeping bag, canteens, etc.)

I'm not sure if that helps, but I suspect "Firefox" is a general no-no here.

Based on thesaurus.com:
Main Entry: bundle
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: accumulation, package of something
Synonyms: array, assortment, bag, bale, batch, box, bunch, carton,
clump, cluster, collection, crate, group, heap, lot, mass, pack,
package, packet, pallet, parcel, pile, quantity, roll, set, stack, wad

or its (more accurate here) verb use:
Main Entry: bundle
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: accumulate, package
Synonyms: bale, bind, clothe, fasten, pack, palletize, tie, truss, wrap
Antonyms: disperse, divide, let go, scatter, separate, spread

Also useful definition (source: dictionary.com)
to offer or supply (related products or services) in a single
transaction at one all-inclusive price.

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Re: How do you localize "bundled"?

flod
Il 16/09/11 02.08, Justin Wood (Callek) ha scritto:
> I think of Bundled in this case, as Packaged, basically "some part of
> what you got, in the same package", etc.
Ok, but think about the chain of strings here: "Installed by" + "user
(packaged)". What's the relation between "user" and "packaged" (or
"bundled" for what it matters)? I'm the user, I didn't package anything
and I'm not part of a bundle.

"application (bundled)" would make more sense assuming that
&brandShortName; is off the table (and I'm still not sure why it is).

Francesco
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Re: How do you localize "bundled"?

Justin Wood (Callek)-2
In reply to this post by Justin Wood (Callek)-2
On 9/16/2011 12:09 AM, flod wrote:

> Il 16/09/11 02.08, Justin Wood (Callek) ha scritto:
>> I think of Bundled in this case, as Packaged, basically "some part of
>> what you got, in the same package", etc.
> Ok, but think about the chain of strings here: "Installed by" + "user
> (packaged)". What's the relation between "user" and "packaged" (or
> "bundled" for what it matters)? I'm the user, I didn't package anything
> and I'm not part of a bundle.
>
> "application (bundled)" would make more sense assuming that
> &brandShortName; is off the table (and I'm still not sure why it is).

Its a way of saying "You installed this (as part of shipped services of
Firefox)" as opposed to "You installed this (as an explicit
choice/action you chose to do)"

For what its worth, I'm not about to argue for/against the english
string choice, that was UX's decree. But I will help identify a useable
description/definition that l10n teams can base off of.

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Re: How do you localize "bundled"?

jneves
Hi,

I was reading this and thinking that "preinstalled" would convey the
right meaning: it's something installed before the user even uses the
software.

What do you think?
João Miguel Neves

Em 16-09-2011 07:07, Justin Wood (Callek) escreveu:

> On 9/16/2011 12:09 AM, flod wrote:
>> Il 16/09/11 02.08, Justin Wood (Callek) ha scritto:
>>> I think of Bundled in this case, as Packaged, basically "some part of
>>> what you got, in the same package", etc.
>> Ok, but think about the chain of strings here: "Installed by" + "user
>> (packaged)". What's the relation between "user" and "packaged" (or
>> "bundled" for what it matters)? I'm the user, I didn't package anything
>> and I'm not part of a bundle.
>>
>> "application (bundled)" would make more sense assuming that
>> &brandShortName; is off the table (and I'm still not sure why it is).
>
> Its a way of saying "You installed this (as part of shipped services
> of Firefox)" as opposed to "You installed this (as an explicit
> choice/action you chose to do)"
>
> For what its worth, I'm not about to argue for/against the english
> string choice, that was UX's decree. But I will help identify a
> useable description/definition that l10n teams can base off of.
>

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Re: How do you localize "bundled"?

Justin Wood (Callek)-2
In reply to this post by Justin Wood (Callek)-2
On 9/16/2011 2:42 AM, João Miguel Neves wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I was reading this and thinking that "preinstalled" would convey the
> right meaning: it's something installed before the user even uses the
> software.
>
> What do you think?

I think getting fligtar a heads up on this thread would probably be
helpful... ;-)

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Re: How do you localize "bundled"?

Rimas Kudelis
In reply to this post by Justin Wood (Callek)-2
2011.09.16 09:42, João Miguel Neves rašė:
> Hi,
>
> I was reading this and thinking that "preinstalled" would convey the
> right meaning: it's something installed before the user even uses the
> software.

"Preinstalled" could mean "preinstalled by Skype before the user even
installed Firefox".

My reply from yesterday seems to be lost in translation, so I'll just
repeat myself. IMO, a good choice would be "Bundled/installed with this
application" (where 'this application' could or could not be replaced
with brandShortName).

Cheers,
Rimas
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Re: How do you localize "bundled"?

Ljubomir Ljubojevic-2
Време: 09/16/2011 10:18 AM, Rimas Kudelis пише:

> 2011.09.16 09:42, João Miguel Neves rašė:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I was reading this and thinking that "preinstalled" would convey the
>> right meaning: it's something installed before the user even uses the
>> software.
>
> "Preinstalled" could mean "preinstalled by Skype before the user even
> installed Firefox".
>
> My reply from yesterday seems to be lost in translation, so I'll just
> repeat myself. IMO, a good choice would be "Bundled/installed with this
> application" (where 'this application' could or could not be replaced
> with brandShortName).
>

How about using word "sponsor", as:

"installed by you, sponsor or 3rd party"

--

Ljubomir Ljubojevic
(Love is in the Air)
PL Computers
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Google is the Mother, Google is the Father, and traceroute is your
trusty Spiderman...
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Re: How do you localize "bundled"?

flod
Il 16/09/11 13.20, Ljubomir Ljubojevic ha scritto:
> How about using word "sponsor", as:
>
> "installed by you, sponsor or 3rd party"
"Third party" is already an option (and, in the situation described by
Rimas, Skype's add-on would be in that category).

"bundled" should be extensions distributed with the installer, e.g. the
old package Firefox+Google Toolbar.

@João
As I wrote before, "preinstalled" is what we're using right now but I'm
not really happy with it.

Francesco
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Re: How do you localize "bundled"?

Ljubomir Ljubojevic-2
Време: 09/16/2011 01:28 PM, flod пише:
> Il 16/09/11 13.20, Ljubomir Ljubojevic ha scritto:
>> How about using word "sponsor", as:
>>
>> "installed by you, sponsor or 3rd party"
> "Third party" is already an option (and, in the situation described by
> Rimas, Skype's add-on would be in that category).
>
> "bundled" should be extensions distributed with the installer, e.g. the
> old package Firefox+Google Toolbar.

I meant to replace "bundled" with derivate of "sponsor" (like " by
release sponsor"), since main reason for bundling software/extension
with Mozilla software is to promote that "sponsored" software/extension.

--

Ljubomir Ljubojevic
(Love is in the Air)
PL Computers
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trusty Spiderman...
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Re: How do you localize "bundled"?

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by flod
On 16.09.11 08:12, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

> Време: 09/16/2011 01:28 PM, flod пише:
>> Il 16/09/11 13.20, Ljubomir Ljubojevic ha scritto:
>>> How about using word "sponsor", as:
>>>
>>> "installed by you, sponsor or 3rd party"
>> "Third party" is already an option (and, in the situation described by
>> Rimas, Skype's add-on would be in that category).
>>
>> "bundled" should be extensions distributed with the installer, e.g. the
>> old package Firefox+Google Toolbar.
>
> I meant to replace "bundled" with derivate of "sponsor" (like " by
> release sponsor"), since main reason for bundling software/extension
> with Mozilla software is to promote that "sponsored" software/extension.
>

Please don't use sponsor. That's sending the wrong message, we're not
doing those builds because someone dumps a bundle of cash on the table.

Bundles in general are co-marketing projects that help us to reach out
to potential users that wouldn't usually install Firefox. We're getting
market share, not cash.

Axel
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Re: How do you localize "bundled"?

Justin Wood (Callek)-2
On 9/16/2011 12:21 PM, Axel Hecht wrote:

> On 16.09.11 08:12, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:
>> Време: 09/16/2011 01:28 PM, flod пише:
>>> Il 16/09/11 13.20, Ljubomir Ljubojevic ha scritto:
>>>> How about using word "sponsor", as:
>>>>
>>>> "installed by you, sponsor or 3rd party"
>>> "Third party" is already an option (and, in the situation described by
>>> Rimas, Skype's add-on would be in that category).
>>>
>>> "bundled" should be extensions distributed with the installer, e.g. the
>>> old package Firefox+Google Toolbar.
>>
>> I meant to replace "bundled" with derivate of "sponsor" (like " by
>> release sponsor"), since main reason for bundling software/extension
>> with Mozilla software is to promote that "sponsored" software/extension.
>>
>
> Please don't use sponsor. That's sending the wrong message, we're not
> doing those builds because someone dumps a bundle of cash on the table.
>
> Bundles in general are co-marketing projects that help us to reach out
> to potential users that wouldn't usually install Firefox. We're getting
> market share, not cash.

To elaborate as well, in the case of SeaMonkey, the extensions
Chatzilla, Venkman, and DOM-Inspector, are "Bundled" but that is due to
our own desire. Not any form of "Sponsoring".

--
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Re: How do you localize "bundled"?

flod
Il 17/09/2011 0.22, Justin Wood (Callek) ha scritto:
> To elaborate as well, in the case of SeaMonkey, the extensions
> Chatzilla, Venkman, and DOM-Inspector, are "Bundled" but that is due
> to our own desire. Not any form of "Sponsoring".
Add TestPilot for Firefox to this list.

All this confusion - also considering that localizers probably know the
product better than an average user - makes me think that we are doing
it wrong. Do we really need this distinction? To me a bundled add-on is
more "third party" than "you".

Francesco
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Re: How do you localize "bundled"?

Ljubomir Ljubojevic-2
Време: 09/17/2011 08:05 AM, Francesco Lodolo пише:

> Il 17/09/2011 0.22, Justin Wood (Callek) ha scritto:
>> To elaborate as well, in the case of SeaMonkey, the extensions
>> Chatzilla, Venkman, and DOM-Inspector, are "Bundled" but that is due
>> to our own desire. Not any form of "Sponsoring".
> Add TestPilot for Firefox to this list.
>
> All this confusion - also considering that localizers probably know the
> product better than an average user - makes me think that we are doing
> it wrong. Do we really need this distinction? To me a bundled add-on is
> more "third party" than "you".

Then those extensions are actually installed by Mozilla, and should just
be marked as such. If you are supporting/accepting those add-on's, then
they are installed by you (Mozilla). Right?

If you dissagreed on this, then maybe using something in line of "added
value" instead of "bundled" would be acceptable. We do not have any nice
fraze to express "bundled". Like many English/US words in use, in other
(few/many?) languages they are considered unexceptable to be used
translated.

Like word (MS) "Windows". 99,99% of people would be uterly confused if I
told them to "start the Windows" in my own language. In best case they
would smile how stupid it sounds, shake their heads and shrug it off as
a joke.

That is why you should consider carefully selecting English phrases and
it's context in app, so localization to other languages is easier for
all other language.


--

Ljubomir Ljubojevic
(Love is in the Air)
PL Computers
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Re: How do you localize "bundled"?

Alex Faaborg-3
>
> you should consider carefully selecting English phrases and it's context in
> app, so localization to other languages is easier for all other language.
>

The selection of terms here was very carefully considered (at least we
talked about it for a very long time).  I'm a bit late to this thread, so
sorry about not providing all of this context earlier.

Unusual disclaimer: for any journalists about to quote my statements below,
I would plead with you to include enough context to accurate reflect what we
are actually doing, which is protecting our users.  Normally these
conversations are not done in public, so at the very least you should feel
privileged that you get such a primary source of information.

The move to disable extensions that the user did not actively install
themselves is an extremely controversial change for the companies who (in my
opinion) are taking advantage of Firefox users and installing software
without user consent.  Also, these extensions in many cases significantly
effect the performance of Firefox, causing users to transition to other
browsers that are not loaded down with extensions that the user doesn't even
want in the first place.  If you aren't seeing this as a significant problem
in the wild, it's possible that you don't encounter machines running windows
often enough, where the issue is the most prevalent.

If your company is leveraging Firefox users by paying for other software
applications to install your extension, you are going to believe that we are
out to get you, even though we are actually just putting our users in
control of their browser.

The inaccurate PR attack against us will be "Mozilla is banning anything
installed by other companies, but keeping the things that they installed,
and that isn't a fair practice."  This isn't true, but it looks as if it
could be true and it resonates a bit more if the screen shot says:

Installed by        Action
Third party         Will be disabled
Third party         Will be disabled
Third party         Will be disabled
Third party         Will be disabled
Firefox              Enabled

But that isn't what is actually happening.  This change is about what
software was installed by the user (or not installed by the user).  In the
case of bundled extensions, the user very clearly made a choice to install
them, when they decided to both download and install the bundled build (like
Firefox with Twitter http://twitter.com/#!/download/firefox/ ).   Perhaps on
a technical level the &Appname did the install, but ultimately it was the
user's choice.  We want to frame the dialog in the correct light of "third
party" versus "You" as opposed to "third party" versus "&Appname."  If
anything &Appname is just kind of along for the ride in this whole debate.

It's entirely possible that you disagree on a technical level, but it's
important to understand that this dialog is going to generate a news cycle,
some of that news is going to be extremely negative, and companies that we
are effecting are going to want to try to frame us as evil because we
decided to protect our users, instead of protecting their revenue.

So the phrase:

You (bundled)

captures both the party that made the decision (You), and some context of
the source, which is that it came with the original install that You
selected.  &Appname should not appear in any of the columns (even though it
on some level did everything on both sides).

Alternative terms could be:

You (packaged)
You (included)

Hope that clarifies our thinking, and why we feel framing this accurately is
rather important,
-Alex






On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 1:32 AM, Ljubomir Ljubojevic <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Време: 09/17/2011 08:05 AM, Francesco Lodolo пише:
>
>  Il 17/09/2011 0.22, Justin Wood (Callek) ha scritto:
>>
>>> To elaborate as well, in the case of SeaMonkey, the extensions
>>> Chatzilla, Venkman, and DOM-Inspector, are "Bundled" but that is due
>>> to our own desire. Not any form of "Sponsoring".
>>>
>> Add TestPilot for Firefox to this list.
>>
>> All this confusion - also considering that localizers probably know the
>> product better than an average user - makes me think that we are doing
>> it wrong. Do we really need this distinction? To me a bundled add-on is
>> more "third party" than "you".
>>
>
> Then those extensions are actually installed by Mozilla, and should just be
> marked as such. If you are supporting/accepting those add-on's, then they
> are installed by you (Mozilla). Right?
>
> If you dissagreed on this, then maybe using something in line of "added
> value" instead of "bundled" would be acceptable. We do not have any nice
> fraze to express "bundled". Like many English/US words in use, in other
> (few/many?) languages they are considered unexceptable to be used
> translated.
>
> Like word (MS) "Windows". 99,99% of people would be uterly confused if I
> told them to "start the Windows" in my own language. In best case they would
> smile how stupid it sounds, shake their heads and shrug it off as a joke.
>
> That is why you should consider carefully selecting English phrases and
> it's context in app, so localization to other languages is easier for all
> other language.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Ljubomir Ljubojevic
> (Love is in the Air)
> PL Computers
> Serbia, Europe
>
> Google is the Mother, Google is the Father, and traceroute is your
> trusty Spiderman...
> StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant
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Re: How do you localize "bundled"?

flod
Il 17/09/11 22.23, Alex Faaborg ha scritto:
> Alternative terms could be:
>
> You (packaged)
> You (included)
>
> Hope that clarifies our thinking, and why we feel framing this accurately is
> rather important,
Hi Alex,
thanks for taking the time to explain this. On my side things are a lot
clearer now.

Francesco
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