Graphic attachments in a test group

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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

»Q«
In <news:[hidden email]>,
JoeS <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 8/14/2010 7:26 PM, »Q« wrote:
> > Sending the html to a newsgroup is an awful way to "test" web pages.
>
> I think you are forgetting the "learning" aspects of using a
> newsgroup.

I see no advantages whatsoever over putting it on the web.

> Thunderbird renders html and css very close to that of
> Firefox. If you want to bat ideas back and forth in realtime, a
> newsgroup can be very helpful.

Is it *that* much quicker to attach and html file to a news post than
it is to upload it to a web server?  And Philip's goal, to which I was
responding, was about getting people to test the pages in different
browsers;  surely you agree having it on a web server is better for
that?

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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Mike Easter-2
»Q« wrote:
> JoeS

>> Thunderbird renders html and css very close to that of
>> Firefox. If you want to bat ideas back and forth in realtime, a
>> newsgroup can be very helpful.
>
> Is it *that* much quicker to attach and html file to a news post than
> it is to upload it to a web server?  And Philip's goal, to which I was
> responding, was about getting people to test the pages in different
> browsers;  surely you agree having it on a web server is better for
> that?

How about if these html newsgroup play-boys don't know how to write
html, so they just let Tbird do it for them?

They wouldn't be able to put it on a webpage because they don't know how
to write it (so easily as creating an html-ized news post).

Just positing a hypothetical there, not trying to throw/cast asparagus
on anyone.

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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

JoeS-3
In reply to this post by Beauregard T. Shagnasty
On 8/14/2010 8:14 PM, Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

> JoeS wrote:
>
>> On 8/14/2010 7:26 PM, »Q« wrote:
>>> Sending the html to a newsgroup is an awful way to "test" web pages.
>>
>> I think you are forgetting the "learning" aspects of using a
>> newsgroup.
>
> That's certainly true; can't argue there.
>
>> Thunderbird renders html and css very close to that of Firefox. If
>> you want to bat ideas back and forth in realtime, a newsgroup can be
>> very helpful.
>
> Could be, but there is going to be enough difference between newsreader
> and browser to put only casual experimentation on the plate. For
> example, do you know if Thunderbird (not my newsreader of choice) honors
> and parses the DOCTYPE of the code?  The Mime-type?  Does it read HTML
> or XHTML?  Strict or Transitional?  How does it honor CSS?

Well Acid3 gives me 97/100 in the mail start page.
http://acid3.acidtests.org/

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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Dennis-77
In reply to this post by Mike Easter-2
Mike Easter wrote:

> »Q« wrote:
>> JoeS
>
>>> Thunderbird renders html and css very close to that of
>>> Firefox. If you want to bat ideas back and forth in realtime, a
>>> newsgroup can be very helpful.
>>
>> Is it *that* much quicker to attach and html file to a news post than
>> it is to upload it to a web server? And Philip's goal, to which I was
>> responding, was about getting people to test the pages in different
>> browsers; surely you agree having it on a web server is better for
>> that?
>
> How about if these html newsgroup play-boys don't know how to write
> html, so they just let Tbird do it for them?
>
> They wouldn't be able to put it on a webpage because they don't know how
> to write it (so easily as creating an html-ized news post).
>
> Just positing a hypothetical there, not trying to throw/cast asparagus
> on anyone.
>

I started learning html by using gui html editors. The wysiwyg type like
NVU and its predecessor(s). They didn't do what I wanted them to do so I
started learning html in a text editor. Now I like Quanta Plus. Its
editor is pretty full featured and does more than I need. Maybe it is
cheating but it creates easy to read code without much bloat. All of its
features like the CSS editor keep getting better and better.

I say let them start learning however it is comfortable. They can always
learn better ways as they progress and get used to the process.

Dennis
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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Beauregard T. Shagnasty
In reply to this post by JoeS-3
JoeS wrote:

> Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>> JoeS wrote:
>>> Thunderbird renders html and css very close to that of Firefox. If
>>> you want to bat ideas back and forth in realtime, a newsgroup can
>>> be very helpful.
>>
>> Could be, but there is going to be enough difference between
>> newsreader and browser to put only casual experimentation on the
>> plate. For example, do you know if Thunderbird (not my newsreader of
>> choice) honors and parses the DOCTYPE of the code?  The Mime-type?
>> Does it read HTML or XHTML?  Strict or Transitional?  How does it
>> honor CSS?
>
> Well Acid3 gives me 97/100 in the mail start page.
> http://acid3.acidtests.org/

That's pretty good. Actually, it's damn good.

Since I don't have Tbird 3, can you post the source of that page
somewhere?  Here, if it's not too long?  I'm curious what kind of
structure it uses. Don't forget the DOCTYPE and such.  Thanks.

Can you do the acid test with an HTML email?

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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

PhillipJones
In reply to this post by Beauregard T. Shagnasty
Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
-------------------snip-------------------

> In any case, it's okay to play, but not for serious work. 'Course, I've
> seen Philip's web site, so for him I guess it's fine to test in a
> newsreader...   :-)
>
While may website may make professionals laugh. It does serve my purposes.
And one thing it does do that 100's of websites I visit don't do.
Except for two pages its 100% W3C standards compatible with XHTML 1.0.1
Transitional.

The very need for testing of recent Code is to eliminate one of those
pages. And when HTML 5 is Official, the Code I want to try out will be
100% compatible with HTML Standards.  I know all the pros like fancy CSS
having sidebars, menu bars, and such. In other words a lot of I eye
candy. Many times all that fluff and candy turn people off, If it makes
the site so Complex they can't figure out how to get around.

  BUT for whom my audience is geared to. My site easy on the eyes and
easy to use.

Even my ISP's web page although looks fancy has all kinds of buttons and
such. Its far from standards Compatible. Websites such as Adobe has
hundreds of errors on some pages.  Based HTML Validator. We are
constantly talking about websites that don't work and if they are run
through w3c  validator there are 100's or 1000's of errors all to get a
Fancy looking site.

--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.        "If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.net        mailto:[hidden email]
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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Beauregard T. Shagnasty
In reply to this post by Beauregard T. Shagnasty
Beauregard T. Shagnasty replied to hisself:

> Since I don't have Tbird 3, can you post the source of that page
> somewhere?

Naturally, I meant the source of the "mail start page" mentioned, not
the Acid3 test site ... in case that wasn't obvious.  :-)

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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by Mike Easter-2
On 14.08.2010 13:35, Mike Easter wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> Phillip Jones wrote:
>
>> The purpose of a html newsgroup for test.
>
> I have no objection to there being some newsgroup where html can be
> posted and played with, but...
>
>> is for that. you want a place where you can try out items in html you
>> would possibly use on your website.
>
> I disagree with this concept. To best test how a web page is going to
> look in a browser, browsers should be accessing the page, not news
> agents which have integrated some browser's rendering engine. OE uses/
> has used/ IE's rendering engine. Tbird uses the Moz rendering engine.
>
> It seems to me that the problem for the webpage author is trying to get
> people to talk to hir about what the results are when a page is viewed
> in a browser - not what the results are when an html news message is
> viewed in a newsreader with html rendering.
>
> To that end, a newsgroup might be a place where a web author posts a
> link to a web page. Also, it seems that a web forum which is being
> viewed with a browser would be a more likely place for web authors to
> commiserate with each other than a newsgroup.
>
>> But you want other to view the test and try in different
>> clients to see if they will work on every browser available.
>
> You seem to be confusing news agent/reader with web browser here.
>
>
>

Phil isn't telling all ... The basic purpose of the .multimedia groups
that are frequented by present company is for the testing of sound/video
configurations, etc. not just plain old html.


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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by »Q«
On 14.08.2010 18:26, »Q« wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> In <news:[hidden email]>,
> Phillip Jones <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> The purpose of a html newsgroup for test. is for that. you want a
>> place where you can try out items in html you would possibly use on
>> your website. But you want other to view the test and try in
>> different clients to see if they will work on every browser available.
>
> Sending the html to a newsgroup is an awful way to "test" web pages.
> Some aspects of how a page is delivered on the web depend on what
> server is used and its configuration.  If you want people to test a web
> page for you in different browsers, just put it on the web then post the
> URL in a plain text group, like this one.
>

The problem is that you can't discuss things on a web site. You make
changes suggested in the newsgroup, test, get more input in the group
and so on. I think that's what Phillip is trying to say.

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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by »Q«
On 14.08.2010 19:16, »Q« wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> In <news:[hidden email]>,
> JoeS <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 8/14/2010 7:26 PM, »Q« wrote:
>> > Sending the html to a newsgroup is an awful way to "test" web pages.
>>
>> I think you are forgetting the "learning" aspects of using a
>> newsgroup.
>
> I see no advantages whatsoever over putting it on the web.
>
>> Thunderbird renders html and css very close to that of
>> Firefox. If you want to bat ideas back and forth in realtime, a
>> newsgroup can be very helpful.
>
> Is it *that* much quicker to attach and html file to a news post than
> it is to upload it to a web server?  And Philip's goal, to which I was
> responding, was about getting people to test the pages in different
> browsers;  surely you agree having it on a web server is better for
> that?
>

Absolutely but I think Phillip means that we use the group do discuss
suggestions, put on web site, return to group for more discussion. I
can't see any advantage to attaching html to a news posting as it does
not duplicate the site that is ON the server where all sorts of OS's may
be running.


--
*Jay Garcia - Netscape/Flock Champion*
www.ufaq.org
Netscape - Firefox - SeaMonkey - Flock - Thunderbird

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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

JoeS-3
In reply to this post by Beauregard T. Shagnasty
On 8/14/2010 9:10 PM, Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

> JoeS wrote:
>
>> Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>>> JoeS wrote:
>>>> Thunderbird renders html and css very close to that of Firefox. If
>>>> you want to bat ideas back and forth in realtime, a newsgroup can
>>>> be very helpful.
>>>
>>> Could be, but there is going to be enough difference between
>>> newsreader and browser to put only casual experimentation on the
>>> plate. For example, do you know if Thunderbird (not my newsreader of
>>> choice) honors and parses the DOCTYPE of the code?  The Mime-type?
>>> Does it read HTML or XHTML?  Strict or Transitional?  How does it
>>> honor CSS?
>>
>> Well Acid3 gives me 97/100 in the mail start page.
>> http://acid3.acidtests.org/
>
> That's pretty good. Actually, it's damn good.
>
> Since I don't have Tbird 3, can you post the source of that page
> somewhere?  Here, if it's not too long?

It's pretty long.
Just go to the link in your browser and view the source.

> I'm curious what kind of
> structure it uses. Don't forget the DOCTYPE and such.  Thanks.
>
> Can you do the acid test with an HTML email?

I could up until they removed Javascript from mailnews about a year ago or so.
But I do have a JS enabled build that works fine.
Just put that link in an iframe , the same technique works for Dromaeo and SunSpider.
Again, thats only possible with JS enabled in mailnews. The mail start page already is JS enabled.

--
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http://kb.mozillazine.org/Thunderbird_3.0_-_New_Features_and_Changes
https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Thunderbird/Thunderbird_Binaries
http://kb.mozillazine.org/Breakpad#Using_the_application_to_view_crash_reports
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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

JoeS-3
In reply to this post by Beauregard T. Shagnasty
On 8/14/2010 9:17 PM, Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
> Beauregard T. Shagnasty replied to hisself:
>
>> Since I don't have Tbird 3, can you post the source of that page
>> somewhere?
>
> Naturally, I meant the source of the "mail start page" mentioned, not
> the Acid3 test site ... in case that wasn't obvious.  :-)
>
TB has a web porthole which opens a gecko compliant browser window.
It's available in Options>>General

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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Beauregard T. Shagnasty
In reply to this post by JoeS-3
JoeS wrote:

> Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>> JoeS wrote:
>>> Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>>>> JoeS wrote:
>>>>> Thunderbird renders html and css very close to that of Firefox. If
>>>>> you want to bat ideas back and forth in realtime, a newsgroup can
>>>>> be very helpful.
>>>>
>>>> Could be, but there is going to be enough difference between
>>>> newsreader and browser to put only casual experimentation on the
>>>> plate. For example, do you know if Thunderbird (not my newsreader
>>>> of choice) honors and parses the DOCTYPE of the code?  The
>>>> Mime-type? Does it read HTML or XHTML?  Strict or Transitional?
>>>> How does it honor CSS?
>>>
>>> Well Acid3 gives me 97/100 in the mail start page.
>>> http://acid3.acidtests.org/
>>
>> That's pretty good. Actually, it's damn good.
>>
>> Since I don't have Tbird 3, can you post the source of that page
>> somewhere?  Here, if it's not too long?
>
> It's pretty long.
> Just go to the link in your browser and view the source.

What link with my browser?  The acidtest page?  Seeing that source isn't
going to prove anything about Tbird's newsreader as a competent
'browser'.

>> I'm curious what kind of structure it uses. Don't forget the DOCTYPE
>> and such.  Thanks.
>>
>> Can you do the acid test with an HTML email?
>
> I could up until they removed Javascript from mailnews about a year
> ago or so. But I do have a JS enabled build that works fine. Just put
> that link in an iframe , the same technique works for Dromaeo and
> SunSpider. Again, thats only possible with JS enabled in mailnews.
> The mail start page already is JS enabled.

I'm not following exactly what you're trying to do the acid test on,
Joe. When I visit the http://acid3.acidtests.org/ page with Firefox
3.6.8 (Linux), it reports 94 of 100. Exactly how did you get that 97
with Tbird?

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   -Four wheels carry the body; two wheels move the soul
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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Beauregard T. Shagnasty
In reply to this post by PhillipJones
Phillip Jones wrote:

> Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>> In any case, it's okay to play, but not for serious work. 'Course,
>> I've seen Philip's web site, so for him I guess it's fine to test in
>> a newsreader...   :-)
>
> While may website may make professionals laugh. It does serve my
> purposes. And one thing it does do that 100's of websites I visit
> don't do. Except for two pages its 100% W3C standards compatible with
> XHTML 1.0.1 Transitional.

Why are you using XHTML doctype with 1996-style code? There's nothing
fancy about it, so your chances of validating as Transitional are good.
Try Strict.

You should be writing in HTML 4.01 Strict. Transitional is for
transitioning legacy pages, and means little to any new work.

And do you know that Internet Explorer -- all versions -- do not know
what XHTML is? They treat it as tag soup (look it up). Go here with any
version of IE and test:
http://tekrider.net/html/doctype.php

> The very need for testing of recent Code is to eliminate one of those
> pages. And when HTML 5 is Official, the Code I want to try out will
> be 100% compatible with HTML Standards.  I know all the pros like
> fancy CSS having sidebars, menu bars, and such. In other words a lot
> of I eye candy. Many times all that fluff and candy turn people off,
> If it makes the site so Complex they can't figure out how to get
> around.

It isn't fluff, of lack of it, that makes valid pages.

If you are planning on just changing your doctype to HTML 5 ... well,
save yourself the effort. There is no reason whatsoever to place an HTML
5 doctype on a 1996 page.

> BUT for whom my audience is geared to. My site easy on the eyes and
> easy to use.

Didn't say it wasn't. That's not the point. Valid code can be pretty, or
not, but still be valid.

> Even my ISP's web page although looks fancy has all kinds of buttons
> and such. Its far from standards Compatible. Websites such as Adobe
> has hundreds of errors on some pages.  Based HTML Validator. We are
> constantly talking about websites that don't work and if they are run
> through w3c  validator there are 100's or 1000's of errors all to get
> a Fancy looking site.

Some doctoral student wrote his thesis on valid web pages a few years
ago. He auto-tested millions of them. Only 7% were valid. It doesn't
matter, as long as the major browsers sort of do what you want.

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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

defaria
In reply to this post by Mike Easter-2
On 08/14/2010 08:20 AM, Mike Easter wrote:
For me, html is a treatment that I /want/ on web pages.
Good start...
For me, conversing in a news group is where *I* want to control the appearance of the text that I'm reading in and writing on --
And you can!
because it is a place where a lot of different people are communicating 'one right after another' and the appearance of the communication with each other needs to look the same to me.
Well need is a strong word. I'd say desire.
Similarly, for me, when I am conversing with a series of other people in email, I want the appearance of the words to be similar.

We are going to be communicating with each other with words and language which works the best for me when *I* control how it looks to me and the recipient can control how it looks to them.

Typically the person who emails something in html has no idea how the recipient's system is going to display that html.
Again, that's pretty strong. I'd say he has a pretty good idea about how it will be displayed but he may be wrong.
Only when two people have established an 'html relationship' with each other in which they have essentially said to each other - I want to email in html and the other has said I also want to email in html and I want to display what you have created in the way you want it displayed.

Many of the people who email html to me have not established that relationship and until and unless they do, the default mode should be plaintext.

That above is also why the default mode in newsgroups is plaintext.
You forgot to add IYHO.

Meantime it seems clear you've not checked out View: Message Body As: Plaintext. Viola you got your wish. So why then do you still complain?
--
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It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Jay Garcia
In reply to this post by JoeS-3
On 14.08.2010 21:12, JoeS wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> TB has a web porthole which opens a gecko compliant browser window.
> It's available in Options>>General

It is? Where?

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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Dennis-77
Jay Garcia wrote:
> On 14.08.2010 21:12, JoeS wrote:
>
>   --- Original Message ---
>
>> TB has a web porthole which opens a gecko compliant browser window.
>> It's available in Options>>General
>
> It is? Where?
>

He is talking about the thunderbird start page I believe.
"When Thunderbird launches, show the start page in the message area"

Put a url in there.

And maybe ... There is a 'browser like' tab after an update, at least
here there is, that he could be talking about. I don't use Thunderbird
so don't know how to access that tab.

Seamonkey has a similar 'start page' setting.


Dennis

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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Jay Garcia
On 14.08.2010 23:47, Dennis wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> Jay Garcia wrote:
>> On 14.08.2010 21:12, JoeS wrote:
>>
>>   --- Original Message ---
>>
>>> TB has a web porthole which opens a gecko compliant browser window.
>>> It's available in Options>>General
>>
>> It is? Where?
>>
>
> He is talking about the thunderbird start page I believe.
> "When Thunderbird launches, show the start page in the message area"
>
> Put a url in there.
>
> And maybe ... There is a 'browser like' tab after an update, at least
> here there is, that he could be talking about. I don't use Thunderbird
> so don't know how to access that tab.
>
> Seamonkey has a similar 'start page' setting.
>
>
> Dennis
>

Ah yes .. the start page .. I was looking for some sort of porthole .. :-)


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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

JoeS-3
On 8/15/2010 8:46 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:

> On 14.08.2010 23:47, Dennis wrote:
>
>   --- Original Message ---
>
>> Jay Garcia wrote:
>>> On 14.08.2010 21:12, JoeS wrote:
>>>
>>>    --- Original Message ---
>>>
>>>> TB has a web porthole which opens a gecko compliant browser window.
>>>> It's available in Options>>General
>>>
>>> It is? Where?
>>>
>>
>> He is talking about the thunderbird start page I believe.
>> "When Thunderbird launches, show the start page in the message area"
>>
>> Put a url in there.
>>
>> And maybe ... There is a 'browser like' tab after an update, at least
>> here there is, that he could be talking about. I don't use Thunderbird
>> so don't know how to access that tab.
>>
>> Seamonkey has a similar 'start page' setting.
>>
>>
>> Dennis
>>
>
> Ah yes .. the start page .. I was looking for some sort of porthole .. :-)
>
>
I use the mail start page for my local weather forecast (and experimenting)
You can bring it up anytime by using the "go" button. Go>>>mail start page
The advantage of using the mail start page over other means like an iframe
in a message, is that Javascript is enabled there.

Another method of opening a browser window is to paste JS code into the
evaluate bar of the error console. For instance the following code will run
the acid tests:
var url1 = "http://acid3.acidtests.org";var url2 = "http://www.webstandards.org/files/acid2/test.html#top";var threePane =
Components.classes['@mozilla.org/appshell/window-mediator;1'].getService(Components.interfaces.nsIWindowMediator).getMostRecentWindow("mail:3pane");gBrowser = threePane.document.getElementById("messagepane");gBrowser.loadURI(url1, null, null);


--
JoeS Using TB3
http://kb.mozillazine.org/Thunderbird_3.0_-_New_Features_and_Changes
https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Thunderbird/Thunderbird_Binaries
http://kb.mozillazine.org/Breakpad#Using_the_application_to_view_crash_reports
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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Jay Garcia
On 15.08.2010 09:36, JoeS wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> On 8/15/2010 8:46 AM, Jay Garcia wrote:
>> On 14.08.2010 23:47, Dennis wrote:
>>
>>   --- Original Message ---
>>
>>> Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>> On 14.08.2010 21:12, JoeS wrote:
>>>>
>>>>    --- Original Message ---
>>>>
>>>>> TB has a web porthole which opens a gecko compliant browser window.
>>>>> It's available in Options>>General
>>>>
>>>> It is? Where?
>>>>
>>>
>>> He is talking about the thunderbird start page I believe.
>>> "When Thunderbird launches, show the start page in the message area"
>>>
>>> Put a url in there.
>>>
>>> And maybe ... There is a 'browser like' tab after an update, at least
>>> here there is, that he could be talking about. I don't use Thunderbird
>>> so don't know how to access that tab.
>>>
>>> Seamonkey has a similar 'start page' setting.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dennis
>>>
>>
>> Ah yes .. the start page .. I was looking for some sort of porthole ..
>> :-)
>>
>>
> I use the mail start page for my local weather forecast (and experimenting)
> You can bring it up anytime by using the "go" button. Go>>>mail start page
> The advantage of using the mail start page over other means like an iframe
> in a message, is that Javascript is enabled there.
>
> Another method of opening a browser window is to paste JS code into the
> evaluate bar of the error console. For instance the following code will run
> the acid tests:
> var url1 = "http://acid3.acidtests.org";var url2 =
> "http://www.webstandards.org/files/acid2/test.html#top";var threePane =
> Components.classes['@mozilla.org/appshell/window-mediator;1'].getService(Components.interfaces.nsIWindowMediator).getMostRecentWindow("mail:3pane");gBrowser
> =
> threePane.document.getElementById("messagepane");gBrowser.loadURI(url1,
> null, null);
>
>

Yes, understood completely. I just never use the start page feature,
always has been "blank page".


--
*Jay Garcia - Netscape/Flock Champion*
www.ufaq.org
Netscape - Firefox - SeaMonkey - Flock - Thunderbird
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