Graphic attachments in a test group

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Graphic attachments in a test group

Mike Easter-2
This is not about html related issues, but is a question about
permissibility of a graphic attachment to plaintext message in
mozilla.test.multimedia

Background elsewhere: once the spamcop website and blocklist and
reporting tool and mail filtering and reporting service were completely
supported in newsgroups on a specialty server and integrated mailing
list - like the moz news server and mailing lists are. Subsequently a
spamcop webforum and wiki were established which deprecated the activity
in the newsgroups which are still alive.

The spamcop newsgroup postings were required to be plaintext, no html,
no binary graphics, and no spam posting (in the discussion groups) -
while a mechanism was provided to feed spam into a web tool and refer to
it with a tracking link for discussing.

And/But also a .spam news group was created to be the one group where
spam posting was (also) permitted, and that spam group was sometimes
used for posting a graphic to illustrate something difficult to describe
in text. Common practice was no discussion in the .spam group.

Actually that .spam newsgroup existed to handle the spam posting before
there was a web tool for using a tracking URL for discussing a spam and
the .spam group was retained after the superior web tool was operational.

Many people have or use websites these days where they can post a
graphic of something and refer to it with a browser link, but I found it
'handy' to use the spamcop.spam group to occasionally post a little
graphic or other attachment to a news message to illustrate something. I
considered the .spam group a 'junk' group, and the news admin had it
configured for very very short retention.

The mozilla server has a group called mozilla.test.multimedia.  Can that
group be used (is it permissible?) to post small graphical illustrations
of something, like a screenshot of a Thunderbird focus to help
communicate a question or an answer to a question?

In that way, a graphical illustration of something could be accessed
without the use of a browser or the internet at large while someone was
accessing the moz news server.

If I were admin/ing the test group, I would restrict the size of
individual messages and also make the group have a short retention so
that there wouldn't be excessive burdens on the news server caused by
too many large messages there.


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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

PhillipJones
Mike Easter wrote:

> This is not about html related issues, but is a question about
> permissibility of a graphic attachment to plaintext message in
> mozilla.test.multimedia
>
> Background elsewhere: once the spamcop website and blocklist and
> reporting tool and mail filtering and reporting service were completely
> supported in newsgroups on a specialty server and integrated mailing
> list - like the moz news server and mailing lists are. Subsequently a
> spamcop webforum and wiki were established which deprecated the activity
> in the newsgroups which are still alive.
>
> The spamcop newsgroup postings were required to be plaintext, no html,
> no binary graphics, and no spam posting (in the discussion groups) -
> while a mechanism was provided to feed spam into a web tool and refer to
> it with a tracking link for discussing.
>
> And/But also a .spam news group was created to be the one group where
> spam posting was (also) permitted, and that spam group was sometimes
> used for posting a graphic to illustrate something difficult to describe
> in text. Common practice was no discussion in the .spam group.
>
> Actually that .spam newsgroup existed to handle the spam posting before
> there was a web tool for using a tracking URL for discussing a spam and
> the .spam group was retained after the superior web tool was operational.
>
> Many people have or use websites these days where they can post a
> graphic of something and refer to it with a browser link, but I found it
> 'handy' to use the spamcop.spam group to occasionally post a little
> graphic or other attachment to a news message to illustrate something. I
> considered the .spam group a 'junk' group, and the news admin had it
> configured for very very short retention.
>
> The mozilla server has a group called mozilla.test.multimedia.  Can that
> group be used (is it permissible?) to post small graphical illustrations
> of something, like a screenshot of a Thunderbird focus to help
> communicate a question or an answer to a question?
>
> In that way, a graphical illustration of something could be accessed
> without the use of a browser or the internet at large while someone was
> accessing the moz news server.
>
> If I were admin/ing the test group, I would restrict the size of
> individual messages and also make the group have a short retention so
> that there wouldn't be excessive burdens on the news server caused by
> too many large messages there.
>
>
No longer exist. killed off Chris I and the head of Mozilla. By creating
such impossible rules and Guidelines no one could post anything, without
breaking the rules, we couldn't even comment in the same group about
what was posted. So people let it die. We had group to go as an
alternate,  until AOL marked NTTM as archive only as a result of a
miscue when moving it to a new server.

its not that we want to post entire web pages. but to create a message
that uses code we might use in a website.  I'm having to have a person
kind a enough to help and pose a question on about.com forum

Before I could post in that group have several people look at it suggest
changes and I could then use it in my website.
--
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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

JoeS-3
In reply to this post by Mike Easter-2
On 8/11/2010 6:25 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
> The mozilla server has a group called mozilla.test.multimedia.  Can that group be used (is it permissible?) to post small graphical illustrations of something, like a screenshot...

That group is _strictly_ test

> About test-multimedia  
> English (USA)
>
> This list and newsgroup is a place to test posting and reading binaries with Mozilla-based clients. This newsgroup is moderated to avoid people using it for anything other than testing purposes.



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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Hartmut Figge
JoeS:
>On 8/11/2010 6:25 PM, Mike Easter wrote:

>> The mozilla server has a group called mozilla.test.multimedia.  Can
>> that group be used (is it permissible?) to post small graphical
>> illustrations of something, like a screenshot...
>
>That group is _strictly_ test

|to test posting and reading binaries with Mozilla-based clients

It should be obvious that you can only detect problems reading binaries
with Mozilla-based clients if you have postings with attached binaries
which can be read.

And lots of it, because there may only a few one which show problems.
Here is an example of such a problem:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=458164

mozilla.test.multimedia is the right place for finding problems of such
kind. Or should be.

Hartmut
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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

JoeS-3
On 8/12/2010 9:40 PM, Hartmut Figge wrote:

> JoeS:
>> On 8/11/2010 6:25 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
>
>>> The mozilla server has a group called mozilla.test.multimedia.  Can
>>> that group be used (is it permissible?) to post small graphical
>>> illustrations of something, like a screenshot...
>>
>> That group is _strictly_ test
>
> |to test posting and reading binaries with Mozilla-based clients
>
> It should be obvious that you can only detect problems reading binaries
> with Mozilla-based clients if you have postings with attached binaries
> which can be read.
>
> And lots of it,

Well, to get a lot of posts, you must have some other reason to post them.
(aside from posting a specific testcase)
You would get many posts with a variety of operating systems and display variations if there was a social
component to that group. But alas, the Mozilla hierarchy does not agree with this premise.
Hence the virtual abandonment of the group, and probably a lot of bugs being missed.

> because there may only a few one which show problems.
> Here is an example of such a problem:
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=458164
>
> mozilla.test.multimedia is the right place for finding problems of such
> kind. Or should be.
>
> Hartmut


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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Hartmut Figge
JoeS:
>On 8/12/2010 9:40 PM, Hartmut Figge wrote:

>> It should be obvious that you can only detect problems reading binaries
>> with Mozilla-based clients if you have postings with attached binaries
>> which can be read.
>>
>> And lots of it,
>
>Well, to get a lot of posts, you must have some other reason to post
>them. (aside from posting a specific testcase)

Right.

> You would get many posts with a variety of operating systems and
> display variations if there was a social component to that group. But
> alas, the Mozilla hierarchy does not agree with this premise.

Oh, i know this. Exactly for that reason i was not allowed to post to
.multimedia.

>Hence the virtual abandonment of the group, and probably a lot of
>bugs being missed.

Yes. The current kind of moderation is a disaster for mozilla.

Hartmut
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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

PhillipJones
Hartmut Figge wrote:

> JoeS:
>> On 8/12/2010 9:40 PM, Hartmut Figge wrote:
>
>>> It should be obvious that you can only detect problems reading binaries
>>> with Mozilla-based clients if you have postings with attached binaries
>>> which can be read.
>>>
>>> And lots of it,
>>
>> Well, to get a lot of posts, you must have some other reason to post
>> them. (aside from posting a specific testcase)
>
> Right.
>
>> You would get many posts with a variety of operating systems and
>> display variations if there was a social component to that group. But
>> alas, the Mozilla hierarchy does not agree with this premise.
>
> Oh, i know this. Exactly for that reason i was not allowed to post to
> .multimedia.
>
>> Hence the virtual abandonment of the group, and probably a lot of
>> bugs being missed.
>
> Yes. The current kind of moderation is a disaster for mozilla.
>
> Hartmut

  Take it up with the head honcho of Mozilla. CI was the one that
convinced him to force the new rules or kill it. They claim  its some
guidelines from GigaNews. But we had been getting along just fine until
CI got involved.  Since I will possibly be paying for NewsGuy I'll ask
then if they can set up a newsgroup for use under the guidelines. I
might even volunteer as a Moderator.

What the issue really is most of the folks that moderates the groups
lack any creativity and stuck in the Days of Bulletin Boards. I use to
drive a 54 Chevrolet sedan with a column shift. But that was when I went
to high school in 1966. This is 2010.

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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Hartmut Figge
Phillip Jones:

>Since I will possibly be paying for NewsGuy I'll ask
>then if they can set up a newsgroup for use under the guidelines. I
>might even volunteer as a Moderator.

I have now asked Albasani if it can serve as a refuge for us. The answer
was yes. The NG albasani.test can be used immediately and it is possible
to create a special one for Mozilla purposes. The need of that will
depend on the acceptance.

No moderator, free to use without fee, but of course the Terms of Use
have to be respected. See also the FAQ.

http://albasani.net/index.html.en

The limit of binaries should be 1MB and comments are allowed. I will
wait for your first picture, :)

Hartmut
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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Hartmut Figge
Hartmut Figge:

>I have now asked Albasani if it can serve as a refuge for us. The answer
>was yes. The NG albasani.test can be used immediately and it is possible
>to create a special one for Mozilla purposes. The need of that will
>depend on the acceptance.

One posting has already arrived there. Well, now there exists the group
albasani.mozilla. :)

Should be preferred instead of albasani.test.

Hartmut
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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

PhillipJones
In reply to this post by Hartmut Figge
Hartmut Figge wrote:

> Phillip Jones:
>
>> Since I will possibly be paying for NewsGuy I'll ask
>> then if they can set up a newsgroup for use under the guidelines. I
>> might even volunteer as a Moderator.
>
> I have now asked Albasani if it can serve as a refuge for us. The answer
> was yes. The NG albasani.test can be used immediately and it is possible
> to create a special one for Mozilla purposes. The need of that will
> depend on the acceptance.
>
> No moderator, free to use without fee, but of course the Terms of Use
> have to be respected. See also the FAQ.
>
> http://albasani.net/index.html.en
>
> The limit of binaries should be 1MB and comments are allowed. I will
> wait for your first picture, :)
>
> Hartmut

just sent an email request

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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Mike Easter-2
In reply to this post by PhillipJones
Phillip Jones wrote:

> I use to
> drive a 54 Chevrolet sedan with a column shift.

My 1950 Oldsmobile had hydramatic, but the 'hot rod' mags had
illustrations for how to 'hack' the valve body channels and springs for
the hydramatic shifter fluids so that you could control the gear
shifting 'smartly' - as in manually, so the Olds could do just fine on
the makeshift drag strip out on the farm-to-market road in my
agricultural community.

Naturally the competition was typically '50 Fords and Mercs. At the time
these vehicles were about 10 years old and serving us well.

I prefer to get plaintext email - convert any html to that - and my #1
car doesn't have a catalytic converter on it and would burn leaded
gasoline if there were any to be found.

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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

JoeS-3
On 8/13/2010 8:26 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
> I prefer to get plaintext email - convert any html to that - and my #1 car doesn't have a catalytic converter on it and would burn leaded gasoline if there were any to be found.

That's fine, but just as you tweaked your Hydromatic , or maybe enhanced the carberation a bit, that's how we HTML guys
view HTML vs. plaintext It opens up a whole new ballgame. And it is just that, a challenge to use those tools in a manner
that enhances communication. (My flathead 50 merc engine ran a hell of lot better with a trip carb edelbrock on it.)

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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Mike Easter-2
JoeS wrote:

> On 8/13/2010 8:26 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
>> I prefer to get plaintext email - convert any html to that - and my #1
>> car doesn't have a catalytic converter on it and would burn leaded
>> gasoline if there were any to be found.
>
> That's fine, but just as you tweaked your Hydromatic , or maybe enhanced
> the carberation a bit, that's how we HTML guys
> view HTML vs. plaintext It opens up a whole new ballgame. And it is just
> that, a challenge to use those tools in a manner
> that enhances communication. (My flathead 50 merc engine ran a hell of
> lot better with a trip carb edelbrock on it.)

For me, html is a treatment that I /want/ on web pages.

For me, conversing in a news group is where *I* want to control the
appearance of the text that I'm reading in and writing on -- because it
is a place where a lot of different people are communicating 'one right
after another' and the appearance of the communication with each other
needs to look the same to me.

Similarly, for me, when I am conversing with a series of other people in
email, I want the appearance of the words to be similar.

We are going to be communicating with each other with words and language
which works the best for me when *I* control how it looks to me and the
recipient can control how it looks to them.

Typically the person who emails something in html has no idea how the
recipient's system is going to display that html. Only when two people
have established an 'html relationship' with each other in which they
have essentially said to each other - I want to email in html and the
other has said I also want to email in html and I want to display what
you have created in the way you want it displayed.

Many of the people who email html to me have not established that
relationship and until and unless they do, the default mode should be
plaintext.

That above is also why the default mode in newsgroups is plaintext.


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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

PhillipJones
Mike Easter wrote:

> JoeS wrote:
>> On 8/13/2010 8:26 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
>>> I prefer to get plaintext email - convert any html to that - and my #1
>>> car doesn't have a catalytic converter on it and would burn leaded
>>> gasoline if there were any to be found.
>>
>> That's fine, but just as you tweaked your Hydromatic , or maybe enhanced
>> the carberation a bit, that's how we HTML guys
>> view HTML vs. plaintext It opens up a whole new ballgame. And it is just
>> that, a challenge to use those tools in a manner
>> that enhances communication. (My flathead 50 merc engine ran a hell of
>> lot better with a trip carb edelbrock on it.)
>
> For me, html is a treatment that I /want/ on web pages.
>
> For me, conversing in a news group is where *I* want to control the
> appearance of the text that I'm reading in and writing on -- because it
> is a place where a lot of different people are communicating 'one right
> after another' and the appearance of the communication with each other
> needs to look the same to me.
>
> Similarly, for me, when I am conversing with a series of other people in
> email, I want the appearance of the words to be similar.
>
> We are going to be communicating with each other with words and language
> which works the best for me when *I* control how it looks to me and the
> recipient can control how it looks to them.
>
> Typically the person who emails something in html has no idea how the
> recipient's system is going to display that html. Only when two people
> have established an 'html relationship' with each other in which they
> have essentially said to each other - I want to email in html and the
> other has said I also want to email in html and I want to display what
> you have created in the way you want it displayed.
>
> Many of the people who email html to me have not established that
> relationship and until and unless they do, the default mode should be
> plaintext.
>
> That above is also why the default mode in newsgroups is plaintext.
>
>
The purpose of a html newsgroup for test. is for that. you want a place
where you can try out items in html you would possibly use on your
website. But you want other to view the test and try in different
clients to see if they will work on every browser available.  If we want
to replay in Plain text we do that as well. Or If we want to post items
html That's okay as well. We go into that group knowing that HTML will
at some point be posted.

And as for the comment  above starting :

Typically the person who emails something in html has....

That the reason for an HTML newsgroup to explore those differences and
try to overcome them.

In today's day and age there should be no differences regrettably as
long as IE is around and other MS Products there will always be
differences. That's by MS design. The want to make it so difficult that
normal PC users would rather stay with something that works they are use
to even if it is wrong.




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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Mike Easter-2
Phillip Jones wrote:

> The purpose of a html newsgroup for test.

I have no objection to there being some newsgroup where html can be
posted and played with, but...

> is for that. you want a place
> where you can try out items in html you would possibly use on your
> website.

I disagree with this concept. To best test how a web page is going to
look in a browser, browsers should be accessing the page, not news
agents which have integrated some browser's rendering engine. OE uses/
has used/ IE's rendering engine. Tbird uses the Moz rendering engine.

It seems to me that the problem for the webpage author is trying to get
people to talk to hir about what the results are when a page is viewed
in a browser - not what the results are when an html news message is
viewed in a newsreader with html rendering.

To that end, a newsgroup might be a place where a web author posts a
link to a web page. Also, it seems that a web forum which is being
viewed with a browser would be a more likely place for web authors to
commiserate with each other than a newsgroup.

 > But you want other to view the test and try in different
> clients to see if they will work on every browser available.

You seem to be confusing news agent/reader with web browser here.



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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Beauregard T. Shagnasty
In reply to this post by PhillipJones
Phillip Jones wrote:

> The purpose of a html newsgroup for test. is for that. you want a place
> where you can try out items in html you would possibly use on your
> website.

The place to test HTML is on a web server, using various browsers and
these tools:
http://validator.w3.org/
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

There is very little similarity between a Usenet newsreader and a
browser, so your little project is doomed from the start.

> But you want other to view the test and try in different
> clients to see if they will work on every browser available.

Use the several major browsers you have installed on your development
PC, then if you are still not sure, go to:
http://browsershots.org/

Heck, install Apache on your own computer and you don't even need a web
host for testing.

> That the reason for an HTML newsgroup to explore those differences and
> try to overcome them.

Will never work.

HTML on a Usenet news server only serves to bloat the byte-count...

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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Hartmut Figge
Beauregard T. Shagnasty:

>HTML on a Usenet news server only serves to bloat the byte-count...

HTML is not even allowed on most news servers, but nevertheless, it may
be nice to play with it. *g*

Even attachments to HTML postings do now work.

Hartmut
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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

»Q«
In reply to this post by PhillipJones
In <news:[hidden email]>,
Phillip Jones <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The purpose of a html newsgroup for test. is for that. you want a
> place where you can try out items in html you would possibly use on
> your website. But you want other to view the test and try in
> different clients to see if they will work on every browser available.

Sending the html to a newsgroup is an awful way to "test" web pages.
Some aspects of how a page is delivered on the web depend on what
server is used and its configuration.  If you want people to test a web
page for you in different browsers, just put it on the web then post the
URL in a plain text group, like this one.

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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

JoeS-3
On 8/14/2010 7:26 PM, »Q« wrote:
> Sending the html to a newsgroup is an awful way to "test" web pages.
I think you are forgetting the "learning" aspects of using a newsgroup.
Thunderbird renders html and css very close to that of Firefox.
If you want to bat ideas back and forth in realtime, a newsgroup can be very helpful.

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Re: Graphic attachments in a test group

Beauregard T. Shagnasty
JoeS wrote:

> On 8/14/2010 7:26 PM, »Q« wrote:
>> Sending the html to a newsgroup is an awful way to "test" web pages.
>
> I think you are forgetting the "learning" aspects of using a
> newsgroup.

That's certainly true; can't argue there.

> Thunderbird renders html and css very close to that of Firefox. If
> you want to bat ideas back and forth in realtime, a newsgroup can be
> very helpful.

Could be, but there is going to be enough difference between newsreader
and browser to put only casual experimentation on the plate. For
example, do you know if Thunderbird (not my newsreader of choice) honors
and parses the DOCTYPE of the code?  The Mime-type?  Does it read HTML
or XHTML?  Strict or Transitional?  How does it honor CSS?

In any case, it's okay to play, but not for serious work. 'Course, I've
seen Philip's web site, so for him I guess it's fine to test in a
newsreader...   :-)

--
   -bts
   -Four wheels carry the body; two wheels move the soul
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