Fwd: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!

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Fwd: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!

Dave Yeo-3


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 16:55:29 +0100
From: VOICE News Service <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]

++ From the VOICE OS/2-eCS News Service   http://www.os2voice.org ++

From: [hidden email]

Hello everybody,

I'm sending out this email on behalf of the Mensys and Bitwise GmbH.
For the people who follow the Mozilla OS/2 newsgroup its quite obvious
it's taking more and more effort to compile current versions of the
Firefox web browser from the Mozilla foundation.

Also there are some stability issue's. Bitwise GmbH is working on
Firefox so we as commuity can easly compile it again for OS/2 and
eComStation.

What will be done are the following issue's:

* Clean up the build enviroment. with which Firefox is compiled.
* Currently the Mozilla foundation is thinking of removing the OS/2
support from the source code repository. The reason for this is because
we have patches in the OS/2 enviroment
we need to rewrite. These patches also make it difficult to compile a
stable web browser.
* What will also be implemented is IPC support. This will mean that if
one browser tab in Firefox crashes it will not make your web browser
crash.

The total goal is to get the current Firefox version compiling again on
OS/2/eComStation.

The amount of money we need is 8000 Euro for 3 months of full work on
Firefox.

You can buy sponsorunits via the Mensys shop:
http://www.mensys.com/shop/NetlabsJava6

While the webpage mentions only Java 6. All money will be used for the
Firefox deveopment.
100% of your donation will be send to Bitwise GmbH.

Bitwise GmbH is the company that is managed by Silvan Scherrer and they
worked on other open source community projects such as Java 6, QT 4,
ODIN and Samba for connectivity with Windows network.

Regards,

Roderick Klein
Mensys B.V
--

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Re: Fwd: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!

Curtis-21
Dave,

Does this mean you'll get some of the money?  Are they taking what you
have running now and enhancing to the current release level of Firefox,
i.e 18+ something...

Just wonder what your thoughts on this, since w/o your ongoing efforts,
the eCs Firefox/Thunderbird/Seamonkey ports would have surely died.

Thanks,


On 02/01/13 01:47 pm, Dave Yeo wrote:
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!
> Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 16:55:29 +0100
> From: VOICE News Service <[hidden email]>
> Reply-To: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
 > snip..
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Re: Fwd: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!

Steve Wendt
On 02/01/13 01:39 pm, Curtis wrote:

> Dave, Does this mean you'll get some of the money?

I wouldn't think so.

> Are they taking what you have running now and enhancing to the
> current release level of Firefox, i.e 18+ something...

Yes, that would be the idea.  Hopefully they get Gecko 17 stable first,
since that is the current ESR branch.
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Re: Fwd: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!

Dave Yeo-3
In reply to this post by Curtis-21
Curtis wrote:
> Dave,
>
> Does this mean you'll get some of the money?

No, I've turned down any offers of money as it has been a hobby and I've
done the least work out of all the people that have maintained Mozilla.
I'm not that skilled and originally I was more of an alpha tester then
anything. I'll probably go back to being that though depending I might
still release builds.

> Are they taking what you
> have running now and enhancing to the current release level of Firefox,
> i.e 18+ something...

I'm sure they'll use most of the fixes that have been done over the
years, Rich did some good stuff plus we've fixed things like webm. Once
IPC is done, a lot of things should just work.
If it was me, I'd start with getting 17esr working, then move to trunk
which would work out to something like 20.

>
> Just wonder what your thoughts on this, since w/o your ongoing efforts,
> the eCs Firefox/Thunderbird/Seamonkey ports would have surely died.

Unluckily the ports will be dead in a couple of weeks when support for
10esr ends.
We're going to have to see what direction Dimitri takes in doing the
port. He mentioned converting the build system to kbuild which would be
a total waste of resources and possibly lead to an unmaintainable mess
as well as possibly make SeaMonkey and Thunderbird uncompilable.
There was also mention of converting Firefox totally to RPM. This is
something that even the Linux distros don't do. They usually put it
somewhere under /usr/lib and put a script under /usr/bin. This also
allows SeaMonkey and Thunderbird to co-exist.
Personally I don't like Firefox as much as SeaMonkey and I believe that
a lot of other users feel the same way.
Dave

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Re: Fwd: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!

Andreas Buchinger
Dave Yeo schrieb:
....
> Personally I don't like Firefox as much as SeaMonkey and I believe that a lot of other users feel
> the same way.
> Dave
I totally agree. Never felt Firefox nearly as comfortable as Seamonkey.
Andreas

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Re: Fwd: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!

Allan-10
In reply to this post by Dave Yeo-3
On Sat, 2 Feb 2013 07:24:47 UTC, Dave Yeo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> We're going to have to see what direction Dimitri takes in doing the
> port. He mentioned converting the build system to kbuild which would be
> a total waste of resources and possibly lead to an unmaintainable mess
> as well as possibly make SeaMonkey and Thunderbird uncompilable.
> There was also mention of converting Firefox totally to RPM. This is
> something that even the Linux distros don't do.

Are you surprised ?  It has always been BitWise's agenda, to destroy
all existing installers, in favour of RPM, no matter if the users like it
or not. Only thing to do about that, is NOT sending them any money.

> Personally I don't like Firefox as much as SeaMonkey and I believe that
> a lot of other users feel the same way.

Seamonkey prefered here too.

--
  Allan.

It is better to close your mouth, and look like a fool,
than to open it, and remove all doubt.
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Re: Fwd: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!

Paavo Nurminen-2
In reply to this post by Dave Yeo-3
Dave Yeo wrote:
> Curtis wrote:
>> Dave,

>>
>
> There was also mention of converting Firefox totally to RPM. This is
> something that even the Linux distros don't do. They usually put it
> somewhere under /usr/lib and put a script under /usr/bin. This also
> allows SeaMonkey and Thunderbird to co-exist.
> Personally I don't like Firefox as much as SeaMonkey and I believe that
> a lot of other users feel the same way.
> Dave
>
Dave,

at least for Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) Firefox comes as RPM
package, as everything else.
And I have Firefox, Thunderbird, and Seamonkey installed in RHEL.
And Opera.

Paavo

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Re: Fwd: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!

Dave Yeo-3
On 02/02/13 06:45 am, Paavo Nurminen wrote:

> Dave Yeo wrote:
>> Curtis wrote:
>>> Dave,
>
>>>
>>
>> There was also mention of converting Firefox totally to RPM. This is
>> something that even the Linux distros don't do. They usually put it
>> somewhere under /usr/lib and put a script under /usr/bin. This also
>> allows SeaMonkey and Thunderbird to co-exist.
>> Personally I don't like Firefox as much as SeaMonkey and I believe that
>> a lot of other users feel the same way.
>> Dave
>>
> Dave,
>
> at least for Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) Firefox comes as RPM
> package, as everything else.
> And I have Firefox, Thunderbird, and Seamonkey installed in RHEL.
> And Opera.
>

Where are the binaries actually installed by RPM? Try which Firefox.
Dave

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Re: Fwd: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!

Paavo Nurminen-2
In reply to this post by Paavo Nurminen-2
Dave Yeo wrote:

> On 02/02/13 06:45 am, Paavo Nurminen wrote:
>> Dave Yeo wrote:
>>> Curtis wrote:
>>>> Dave,
>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> There was also mention of converting Firefox totally to RPM. This is
>>> something that even the Linux distros don't do. They usually put it
>>> somewhere under /usr/lib and put a script under /usr/bin. This also
>>> allows SeaMonkey and Thunderbird to co-exist.
>>> Personally I don't like Firefox as much as SeaMonkey and I believe that
>>> a lot of other users feel the same way.
>>> Dave
>>>
>> Dave,
>>
>> at least for Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) Firefox comes as RPM
>> package, as everything else.
>> And I have Firefox, Thunderbird, and Seamonkey installed in RHEL.
>> And Opera.
>>
>
> Where are the binaries actually installed by RPM? Try which Firefox.
> Dave
>
In RPM land the command is: rpm -ql firefox (or seamonkey).

Binaries (shell script) are in /usr/bin and most of other files in
/usr/lib/firefox and its subdirectories. Same structure for seamonkey.

Paavo

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Re: Fwd: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!

Andreas Buchinger
In reply to this post by Allan-10
Allan schrieb:

> On Sat, 2 Feb 2013 07:24:47 UTC, Dave Yeo<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>> We're going to have to see what direction Dimitri takes in doing the
>> port. He mentioned converting the build system to kbuild which would be
>> a total waste of resources and possibly lead to an unmaintainable mess
>> as well as possibly make SeaMonkey and Thunderbird uncompilable.
>> There was also mention of converting Firefox totally to RPM. This is
>> something that even the Linux distros don't do.
>
> Are you surprised ?  It has always been BitWise's agenda, to destroy
> all existing installers, in favour of RPM, no matter if the users like it
> or not. Only thing to do about that, is NOT sending them any money.
Rather stupid statement that is. I think we do not need another flame thread against rpm. Or flame
against people who contributed a lot last year.

Only looking into one of the latest ported apps from Silvan you would easily see even in the readme
hints on installing with AND without rpm. Silvan even did the extra work to describe how to install
without rpm. I really have now clue why you post such nonsense.

>
>> Personally I don't like Firefox as much as SeaMonkey and I believe that
>> a lot of other users feel the same way.
>
> Seamonkey prefered here too.
>


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Re: Fwd: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!

Dave Yeo-3
In reply to this post by Paavo Nurminen-2
Paavo Nurminen wrote:

> Dave Yeo wrote:
>> On 02/02/13 06:45 am, Paavo Nurminen wrote:
>>> Dave Yeo wrote:
>>>> Curtis wrote:
>>>>> Dave,
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There was also mention of converting Firefox totally to RPM. This is
>>>> something that even the Linux distros don't do. They usually put it
>>>> somewhere under /usr/lib and put a script under /usr/bin. This also
>>>> allows SeaMonkey and Thunderbird to co-exist.
>>>> Personally I don't like Firefox as much as SeaMonkey and I believe that
>>>> a lot of other users feel the same way.
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>> Dave,
>>>
>>> at least for Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) Firefox comes as RPM
>>> package, as everything else.
>>> And I have Firefox, Thunderbird, and Seamonkey installed in RHEL.
>>> And Opera.
>>>
>>
>> Where are the binaries actually installed by RPM? Try which Firefox.
>> Dave
>>
> In RPM land the command is: rpm -ql firefox (or seamonkey).
>
> Binaries (shell script) are in /usr/bin and most of other files in
> /usr/lib/firefox and its subdirectories. Same structure for seamonkey.
>

Yes, that is how most Linux distros do it and the way it should be done
on OS/2. The problem is if they try to actually put firefox.exe in
/usr/bin, the DLLs in /usr/lib and the rest in /usr/share. Firefox is
just not made to be installed that way and having Firefox, SeaMonkey and
Thunderbird co-existing would be very hard.
Dave

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Re: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!

Andreas Schnellbacher
In reply to this post by Allan-10
Andreas Buchinger wrote:

> Allan schrieb:
>
>> On Sat, 2 Feb 2013 07:24:47 UTC, Dave Yeo<[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> We're going to have to see what direction Dimitri takes in doing
>>> the port. He mentioned converting the build system to kbuild which
>>> would be a total waste of resources and possibly lead to an
>>> unmaintainable mess as well as possibly make SeaMonkey and
>>> Thunderbird uncompilable. There was also mention of converting
>>> Firefox totally to RPM. This is something that even the Linux
>>> distros don't do.
>>
>> Are you surprised ? It has always been BitWise's agenda, to destroy
>> all existing installers, in favour of RPM, no matter if the users
>> like it or not. Only thing to do about that, is NOT sending them
>> any money.
>
> Rather stupid statement that is. I think we do not need another
> flame thread against rpm. Or flame against people who contributed a
> lot last year.
>
> Only looking into one of the latest ported apps from Silvan you
> would easily see even in the readme hints on installing with AND
> without rpm. Silvan even did the extra work to describe how to
> install without rpm. I really have now clue why you post such
> nonsense.

I agree.

The problem is that users (even advanced users like Allan) don't
uderstand that developers have to manage the problem of spare time and
resources. Many users still live in the well-supported-by-IBM world.

Times have changed. Dmitry explained it very well in the Qt
bugtracker, why an additional small effort to get YUM to work will
save time for him, Silvan and (of course) Yuri. Please read:
http://svn.netlabs.org/qt4/ticket/181

BTW: I'm sure that adding the needed features to WarpIN would have
occupied too much resources. If it were that easy then already Paul
and even Ulrich would have extended WarpIN. It was much easier to port
an well-working installer that has these features already.

No, I don't like the Unix FHS either. Additionally, I don't like a
Win32 subsystem on my OS/2 system. But we have no choice. Users need
to understand that.

--
Andreas Schnellbacher
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Re: Fwd: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!

Doug Bissett-2
In reply to this post by Dave Yeo-3
On Sat, 2 Feb 2013 07:24:47 UTC, Dave Yeo <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Personally I don't like Firefox as much as SeaMonkey and I believe that
> a lot of other users feel the same way.

I have to argue the other way. I prefer Firefox. I have no need of a
news reader, or mail, since I use Pronews/2 and PMMail. All I need is
a browser that will work with some pretty basic web sites (including
online banking). FLASH is a bonus, but not having it for a couple of
years didn't impact me much.

On the other hand, if it becomes a problem to maintain Firefox, and
Seamonkey is still working, I would have no real problem with using
Seamonkey as a browser. It would be good, if it could be packaged in
modules, so a user could install the part(s) that they want to use,
but I suspect that it doesn't lend itself to doing it that way.

--
From the eComStation of Doug Bissett
dougb007 at telus dot net
(Please make the obvious changes, to e-mail me)

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Re: Fwd: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!

Steve Wendt
In reply to this post by Dave Yeo-3
On 02/01/13 11:24 pm, Dave Yeo wrote:

> We're going to have to see what direction Dimitri takes in doing the
> port. He mentioned converting the build system to kbuild which would be
> a total waste of resources and possibly lead to an unmaintainable mess
> as well as possibly make SeaMonkey and Thunderbird uncompilable.

I hope they plan to actively submit patches back to Mozilla.  It's
possible that some may not be accepted (especially if they don't put in
the extra effort to adjust to feedback from reviewers), but getting as
much as possible into the main codebase should be the goal.  Otherwise,
they can't call it Firefox.
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Re: Fwd: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!

Andy-330
In reply to this post by Doug Bissett-2
On Sat, 2 Feb 2013 22:12:16 UTC, "Doug Bissett"
<dougb007![hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, 2 Feb 2013 07:24:47 UTC, Dave Yeo <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Personally I don't like Firefox as much as SeaMonkey and I believe that
> > a lot of other users feel the same way.
>
> I have to argue the other way. I prefer Firefox. I have no need of a
> news reader, or mail, since I use Pronews/2 and PMMail. All I need is
> a browser that will work with some pretty basic web sites (including
> online banking). FLASH is a bonus, but not having it for a couple of
> years didn't impact me much.
>
> On the other hand, if it becomes a problem to maintain Firefox, and
> Seamonkey is still working, I would have no real problem with using
> Seamonkey as a browser. It would be good, if it could be packaged in
> modules, so a user could install the part(s) that they want to use,
> but I suspect that it doesn't lend itself to doing it that way.
>
I just checked the sizes... initially the Firefox was the larger but
then I recalled I had used lxlite on Seamonkey and not on Firefox so I
ran the lxlite on it.  ~58,000K for Firefox and `61,000K.  Memory-wise
it won't use more memory unless using the other functions.  Even if I
didn't use the email program (as I don't on Linux) I still prefer the
interface of Seamonkey.  
Overall, I seem to see more interest in Seamonkey than Firefox from
OS/2 users but if there were a way to find it I would be curious of
the actual breakdown.
Andy


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Re: Fwd: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!

Ray Davison
In reply to this post by Paavo Nurminen-2
Paavo Nurminen wrote:

> In RPM land the command is: rpm -ql firefox (or seamonkey).
>
> Binaries (shell script) are in /usr/bin and most of other files in
> /usr/lib/firefox and its subdirectories. Same structure for seamonkey.

Since the first release of Mozilla I have used nothing but ZIP distros
for both OS/2 and Win.  I put things where I want them.  My first rule
is no EXEs or data in a boot partition.  I have OS/2 and Win use the
same profile files.  And I design all the directory trees as I chose.  I
maintain several versions of each app.  Mozilla has been very user
friendly in this regard.  If some installer is now going to tell me
where to put the various parts, I want nothing to do with it.

Ray


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Re: Fwd: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!

Doug Bissett-2
In reply to this post by Steve Wendt
On Sun, 3 Feb 2013 00:06:38 UTC, Steve Wendt <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I hope they plan to actively submit patches back to Mozilla.  It's
> possible that some may not be accepted (especially if they don't put in
> the extra effort to adjust to feedback from reviewers), but getting as
> much as possible into the main codebase should be the goal.  Otherwise,
> they can't call it Firefox.
>

Personally, I don't care if they call it "Fred", as long as it does
the job.

--
From the eComStation of Doug Bissett
dougb007 at telus dot net
(Please make the obvious changes, to e-mail me)

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Re: Fwd: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!

Allan-10
In reply to this post by Ray Davison
On Sun, 3 Feb 2013 00:53:30 UTC, Ray Davison <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Paavo Nurminen wrote:
>
> > In RPM land the command is: rpm -ql firefox (or seamonkey).
> >
> > Binaries (shell script) are in /usr/bin and most of other files in
> > /usr/lib/firefox and its subdirectories. Same structure for seamonkey.
>
> Since the first release of Mozilla I have used nothing but ZIP distros
> for both OS/2 and Win.  I put things where I want them.  My first rule
> is no EXEs or data in a boot partition.

Exactly.  :-)

Unfortunately, RPM is the Linux way - all on "1 partition".

>  I have OS/2 and Win use the
> same profile files.  And I design all the directory trees as I chose.  I
> maintain several versions of each app.  Mozilla has been very user
> friendly in this regard.  If some installer is now going to tell me
> where to put the various parts, I want nothing to do with it.

I'm not sure, you will get a choice anymore.

Even Mensys decided to 'RPM' the next eCS release.

Take it or leave it :-/

--
  Allan.

It is better to close your mouth, and look like a fool,
than to open it, and remove all doubt.
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Re: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!

Dave Yeo-3
In reply to this post by Andreas Schnellbacher
Andreas Schnellbacher wrote:

>>> Are you surprised ? It has always been BitWise's agenda, to destroy
>>> >>  all existing installers, in favour of RPM, no matter if the users
>>> >>  like it or not. Only thing to do about that, is NOT sending them
>>> >>  any money.
>> >
>> >  Rather stupid statement that is. I think we do not need another
>> >  flame thread against rpm. Or flame against people who contributed a
>> >  lot last year.
>> >
>> >  Only looking into one of the latest ported apps from Silvan you
>> >  would easily see even in the readme hints on installing with AND
>> >  without rpm. Silvan even did the extra work to describe how to
>> >  install without rpm. I really have now clue why you post such
>> >  nonsense.
> I agree.
>
> The problem is that users (even advanced users like Allan) don't
> uderstand that developers have to manage the problem of spare time and
> resources. Many users still live in the well-supported-by-IBM world.
>
> Times have changed. Dmitry explained it very well in the Qt
> bugtracker, why an additional small effort to get YUM to work will
> save time for him, Silvan and (of course) Yuri. Please read:
> http://svn.netlabs.org/qt4/ticket/181

Having a package manager is a very good idea, especially for managing
DLLs, especially on OS/2 where we're restricted to 8.3 DLL names and no
kind of versioning (besides the short name). Same with some binaries.
The problem comes with applications such as Firefox. Firefox is
descended from Netscape and is designed to be a standalone program. As
long as Firefox knows it's location, it can load its shared libraries,
find its components directory, builtin extensions and such. It has been
extended to use environmental variables such %MOZILLA_HOME% to find
other stuff such as plugins and users profile.
As discussed elsewhere in this thread, Linux generally handles this by
installing the Firefox package somewhere under /usr/lib and putting a
script in the PATH, namely /usr/bin which launches Firefox. Often under
Linux Firefox also uses some of the system shared libraries which are
installed under /usr/lib, the mzfntcfgft libraries are the start of
this, others will follow as some things like sqlite3 have dropped OS/2
support so will need to be installed separately and it may be easier for
other libraries such as Cairo. This also has the advantage that perhaps
updating Cairo fixing printing in all Mozilla apps and versions.
The problem is that Dimitri was wanting to install firefox.exe in
/usr/bin, the firefox dlls under /usr/lib and I guess other stuff under
/usr/share. Firefox is not made for this and would take a lot of hacking
to make work. And what about SeaMonkey and Thunderbird? Conflicts galore
as they use mostly the same DLLs etc.
This is the problem of taking the FHS too far and they're asking for a
lot of money which in my opinion (and most Linux distros) would be
wasted and break Mozilla for the rest of us.
Have a RPM package that installs Firefox the Linux way and someone else
can move it and it'll keep working.

>
> BTW: I'm sure that adding the needed features to WarpIN would have
> occupied too much resources. If it were that easy then already Paul
> and even Ulrich would have extended WarpIN. It was much easier to port
> an well-working installer that has these features already.

A good package manager can be a wonderful thing and WarpIN was never
meant for that, just a simple installer.

>
> No, I don't like the Unix FHS either. Additionally, I don't like a
> Win32 subsystem on my OS/2 system. But we have no choice. Users need
> to understand that.

Dave

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Re: Fwd: [VOICENWS] General: Firefox web browser, we need your donation!

Dave Yeo-3
In reply to this post by Ray Davison
Ray Davison wrote:

> Paavo Nurminen wrote:
>
>> In RPM land the command is: rpm -ql firefox (or seamonkey).
>>
>> Binaries (shell script) are in /usr/bin and most of other files in
>> /usr/lib/firefox and its subdirectories. Same structure for seamonkey.
>
> Since the first release of Mozilla I have used nothing but ZIP distros
> for both OS/2 and Win. I put things where I want them. My first rule is
> no EXEs or data in a boot partition. I have OS/2 and Win use the same
> profile files. And I design all the directory trees as I chose. I
> maintain several versions of each app. Mozilla has been very user
> friendly in this regard. If some installer is now going to tell me where
> to put the various parts, I want nothing to do with it.
>

I'll probably try to keep building packages as I have with 10. Possibly
there will be more dependencies but these would just have to go on your
LIBPATH.
Dave


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