Freetype and Seamonkey

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Freetype and Seamonkey

Harald Kamm
Dear all,

after having updated freetype and fontconfig to the latest versions, Seamonkey 2.35 traps:

 Process:  L:\SEAMONKEY\SEAMONKEY.EXE (06/17/2016 21:12:18 84,245)
 PID:      97F (2431)
 TID:      01 (1)
 Priority: 200

 Filename: D:\USR\LIB\FREETYP6.DLL (05/27/2019 08:29:04 418,524)
 Address:  005B:16A06BD6 (0001:00006BD6)
 Cause:    Attempted to read from 22F56000
           (uncommitted memory allocated by LIBCX0)

Any hint would be very appreciated. Best, Harald
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Re: Freetype and Seamonkey

Dave Yeo-3
On 05/30/19 05:50 AM, Harald Kamm wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> after having updated freetype and fontconfig to the latest versions, Seamonkey 2.35 traps:
>
>  Process:  L:\SEAMONKEY\SEAMONKEY.EXE (06/17/2016 21:12:18 84,245)
>  PID:      97F (2431)
>  TID:      01 (1)
>  Priority: 200
>
>  Filename: D:\USR\LIB\FREETYP6.DLL (05/27/2019 08:29:04 418,524)
>  Address:  005B:16A06BD6 (0001:00006BD6)
>  Cause:    Attempted to read from 22F56000
>            (uncommitted memory allocated by LIBCX0)
>
> Any hint would be very appreciated. Best, Harald

That's new. Did you update everything with YUM or ANPM? Or by hand? Have
you tried safe mode?
Be good to see the whole trp report
Dave
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Re: Freetype and Seamonkey

Harald Kamm
On Thu, 30 May 2019 14:42:18 UTC, Dave Yeo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Have you tried safe mode?

safe mode doesn't work, too.


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Re: Freetype and Seamonkey

Dave Yeo-3
In reply to this post by Dave Yeo-3
Dave Parsons wrote:

> On 30-05-19 16:42, Dave Yeo wrote:
>> On 05/30/19 05:50 AM, Harald Kamm wrote:
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> after having updated freetype and fontconfig to the latest versions,
>>> Seamonkey 2.35 traps:
>>>
>>>  Process:  L:\SEAMONKEY\SEAMONKEY.EXE (06/17/2016 21:12:18 84,245)
>>>  PID:      97F (2431)
>>>  TID:      01 (1)
>>>  Priority: 200
>>>
>>>  Filename: D:\USR\LIB\FREETYP6.DLL (05/27/2019 08:29:04 418,524)
>>>  Address:  005B:16A06BD6 (0001:00006BD6)
>>>  Cause:    Attempted to read from 22F56000
>>>            (uncommitted memory allocated by LIBCX0)
>>>
>>> Any hint would be very appreciated. Best, Harald
>>
>> That's new. Did you update everything with YUM or ANPM? Or by hand? Have
>> you tried safe mode?
>> Be good to see the whole trp report
>> Dave
>
> I'm having problems also since fontconfig was updated to 2.13.1-2 &
> freetyp6 was updated to 2.10.0-1.
> In my case the problem is that firefox 45.9.0-4 won't start.
> I've attached a trap report which is typical except that it appears to
> have captured 2 traps in the same file. I haven't seen that before.

I enabled the exp repository and updated and also had this crash. After
a reboot, things seem stable. Have you tried rebooting?
I'll look into this more after work
Dave
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Re: Freetype and Seamonkey

Dave Parsons
On 31-05-19 17:56, Dave Yeo wrote:

> Dave Parsons wrote:
>> On 30-05-19 16:42, Dave Yeo wrote:
>>> On 05/30/19 05:50 AM, Harald Kamm wrote:
>>>> Dear all,
>>>>
>>>> after having updated freetype and fontconfig to the latest versions,
>>>> Seamonkey 2.35 traps:
>>>>
>>>>  Process:  L:\SEAMONKEY\SEAMONKEY.EXE (06/17/2016 21:12:18 84,245)
>>>>  PID:      97F (2431)
>>>>  TID:      01 (1)
>>>>  Priority: 200
>>>>
>>>>  Filename: D:\USR\LIB\FREETYP6.DLL (05/27/2019 08:29:04 418,524)
>>>>  Address:  005B:16A06BD6 (0001:00006BD6)
>>>>  Cause:    Attempted to read from 22F56000
>>>>            (uncommitted memory allocated by LIBCX0)
>>>>
>>>> Any hint would be very appreciated. Best, Harald
>>>
>>> That's new. Did you update everything with YUM or ANPM? Or by hand? Have
>>> you tried safe mode?
>>> Be good to see the whole trp report
>>> Dave
>>
>> I'm having problems also since fontconfig was updated to 2.13.1-2 &
>> freetyp6 was updated to 2.10.0-1.
>> In my case the problem is that firefox 45.9.0-4 won't start.
>> I've attached a trap report which is typical except that it appears to
>> have captured 2 traps in the same file. I haven't seen that before.
>
> I enabled the exp repository and updated and also had this crash. After
> a reboot, things seem stable. Have you tried rebooting?
> I'll look into this more after work
> Dave

Yes, rebooted many times. It was repeatable & consistent.

I have another problem which also seems to be related to the libc changes.
After libc was updated to 0.1.1-1 (might have been 0.1.1-2) AOO v4.1.1
won't start. unfortunately it did not create a .TRP file.

POPUPLOG.OS2 says:
05-28-2019  09:25:05  SYS3175  PID 008c  TID 0003  Slot 008f
E:\PROGRAMS\APACHEOPENOFFICE.4\PROGRAM\SOFFICE.BIN
c0000005
1ffc1b65
P1=00000001  P2=00000011  P3=XXXXXXXX  P4=XXXXXXXX
EAX=00000011  EBX=20a826e0  ECX=0299ffd4  EDX=00000003
ESI=0299ffd4  EDI=00000003
DS=0053  DSACC=d0f3  DSLIM=7fffffff
ES=0053  ESACC=d0f3  ESLIM=7fffffff
FS=150b  FSACC=00f3  FSLIM=00000030
GS=0000  GSACC=****  GSLIM=********
CS:EIP=005b:1ffc1b65  CSACC=d0df  CSLIM=7fffffff
SS:ESP=0053:0299ff84  SSACC=d0f3  SSLIM=7fffffff
EBP=0299ff84  FLG=00010217

DOSCALL1.DLL 0002:00001b65

I should also add that this is with eCS2.2 beta 2.

Dave P.

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Re: Freetype and Seamonkey

Dave Yeo-3
In reply to this post by Dave Yeo-3
Dave Parsons wrote:

> 0012DE40 : 524F4241 75203A54 6C62616E 6F742065 : ABORT: unable to
>  0012DE50 : 6E696620 20612064 62617375 6620656C :  find a usable f
>  0012DE60 : 20746E6F 72657328 3A296669 6C696620 : ont (serif): fil
>  0012DE70 : 3A442065 6573552F 642F7372 2F6B696D : e D:/Users/dmik/
>  0012DE80 : 626D7072 646C6975 4955422F 6D2F444C : rpmbuild/BUILD/m
>  0012DE90 : 6C697A6F 6F2D616C 462D3273 46455249 : ozilla-os2-FIREF
>  0012DEA0 : 345F584F 5F395F35 72736530 4C45525F : OX_45_9_0esr_REL
>  0012DEB0 : 45534145 32534F5F 3241475F 7866672F : EASE_OS2_GA2/gfx
>  0012DEC0 : 6568742F 2F736562 54786667 52747865 : /thebes/gfxTextR
>  0012DED0 : 632E6E75 202C7070 656E696C 36383120 : un.cpp, line 186

This seems to be the problem.
What happens if you run (without quotes)
"fc-match serif"

Also what are you running? ArcaOS?

Dave
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Re: Freetype and Seamonkey

Dave Yeo-3
In reply to this post by Dave Yeo-3
Harald Kamm wrote:

> On Thu, 30 May 2019 14:42:18 UTC, Dave Yeo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> That's new. Did you update everything with YUM or ANPM? Or by hand? Have
> I have updated everything with YUM.
>
>> you tried safe mode?
> Not yet.
>
> Here's the trap report (unfortunately fileattaches don't work afaics).
>

Nothing jumps out at me, might be better if the dbg packages for
freetype, fontconfig, cairo were installed, also what happened to the
xqs files for SeaMonkey?
You could try putting
SET LIBCX_HIGHMEM=2
into your environment and see if that helps.
Also could consider updating SeaMonkey
Dave
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Re: Freetype and Seamonkey

Dave Yeo-3
In reply to this post by Dave Parsons
Dave Parsons wrote:

> I have another problem which also seems to be related to the libc changes.
> After libc was updated to 0.1.1-1 (might have been 0.1.1-2) AOO v4.1.1
> won't start. unfortunately it did not create a .TRP file.
>
> POPUPLOG.OS2 says:
> 05-28-2019  09:25:05  SYS3175  PID 008c  TID 0003  Slot 008f
> E:\PROGRAMS\APACHEOPENOFFICE.4\PROGRAM\SOFFICE.BIN
> c0000005
> 1ffc1b65
> P1=00000001  P2=00000011  P3=XXXXXXXX  P4=XXXXXXXX
> EAX=00000011  EBX=20a826e0  ECX=0299ffd4  EDX=00000003
> ESI=0299ffd4  EDI=00000003
> DS=0053  DSACC=d0f3  DSLIM=7fffffff
> ES=0053  ESACC=d0f3  ESLIM=7fffffff
> FS=150b  FSACC=00f3  FSLIM=00000030
> GS=0000  GSACC=****  GSLIM=********
> CS:EIP=005b:1ffc1b65  CSACC=d0df  CSLIM=7fffffff
> SS:ESP=0053:0299ff84  SSACC=d0f3  SSLIM=7fffffff
> EBP=0299ff84  FLG=00010217
>
> DOSCALL1.DLL 0002:00001b65

Try adding
SET LIBCX_HIGHMEM=2
to your environment. It will likely fix AAO and might fix Firefox.

>
> I should also add that this is with eCS2.2 beta 2.

Hmm, that should have all the fonts installed that are needed.
Dave

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Re: Freetype and Seamonkey

Dave Parsons
In reply to this post by Dave Yeo-3
On 01-06-19 04:29, Dave Yeo wrote:

> Dave Parsons wrote:
>> 0012DE40 : 524F4241 75203A54 6C62616E 6F742065 : ABORT: unable to
>>  0012DE50 : 6E696620 20612064 62617375 6620656C :  find a usable f
>>  0012DE60 : 20746E6F 72657328 3A296669 6C696620 : ont (serif): fil
>>  0012DE70 : 3A442065 6573552F 642F7372 2F6B696D : e D:/Users/dmik/
>>  0012DE80 : 626D7072 646C6975 4955422F 6D2F444C : rpmbuild/BUILD/m
>>  0012DE90 : 6C697A6F 6F2D616C 462D3273 46455249 : ozilla-os2-FIREF
>>  0012DEA0 : 345F584F 5F395F35 72736530 4C45525F : OX_45_9_0esr_REL
>>  0012DEB0 : 45534145 32534F5F 3241475F 7866672F : EASE_OS2_GA2/gfx
>>  0012DEC0 : 6568742F 2F736562 54786667 52747865 : /thebes/gfxTextR
>>  0012DED0 : 632E6E75 202C7070 656E696C 36383120 : un.cpp, line 186
>
> This seems to be the problem.
> What happens if you run (without quotes)
> "fc-match serif"

E:\>fc-match serif
DEJAVUSERIF.TTF: "DejaVu Serif" "Book"


Unfortunately SET LIBCX_HIGHMEM=2 didn't help with AOO.

Dave P.


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Re: Freetype and Seamonkey

Dave Yeo-3
Dave Parsons wrote:

> On 01-06-19 04:29, Dave Yeo wrote:
>> Dave Parsons wrote:
>>> 0012DE40 : 524F4241 75203A54 6C62616E 6F742065 : ABORT: unable to
>>>  0012DE50 : 6E696620 20612064 62617375 6620656C :  find a usable f
>>>  0012DE60 : 20746E6F 72657328 3A296669 6C696620 : ont (serif): fil
>>>  0012DE70 : 3A442065 6573552F 642F7372 2F6B696D : e D:/Users/dmik/
>>>  0012DE80 : 626D7072 646C6975 4955422F 6D2F444C : rpmbuild/BUILD/m
>>>  0012DE90 : 6C697A6F 6F2D616C 462D3273 46455249 : ozilla-os2-FIREF
>>>  0012DEA0 : 345F584F 5F395F35 72736530 4C45525F : OX_45_9_0esr_REL
>>>  0012DEB0 : 45534145 32534F5F 3241475F 7866672F : EASE_OS2_GA2/gfx
>>>  0012DEC0 : 6568742F 2F736562 54786667 52747865 : /thebes/gfxTextR
>>>  0012DED0 : 632E6E75 202C7070 656E696C 36383120 : un.cpp, line 186
>>
>> This seems to be the problem.
>> What happens if you run (without quotes)
>> "fc-match serif"
>
> E:\>fc-match serif
> DEJAVUSERIF.TTF: "DejaVu Serif" "Book"

Weird, it should use that. I guess it could be profile related. Have you
tried a fresh profile? if that works, you could backup prefs.js and then
search for serif and try removing any lines that reference it.
Really I guess a bug report should be filed against fontconfig as this
is a definite regression and even if there was no matching serif, it
should fall back to something. fc-match -s serif should give a list of
fallbacks.

>
>
> Unfortunately SET LIBCX_HIGHMEM=2 didn't help with AOO.
>

Too bad, thought I saw someone used that as a solution. Have you tried
running it on a freshly booted system?
Dave
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Re: Freetype and Seamonkey

Dave Yeo-3
In reply to this post by Harald Kamm
Harald Kamm wrote:
> On Thu, 30 May 2019 14:42:18 UTC, Dave Yeo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Have you tried safe mode?
> safe mode doesn't work, too.

Have you tested a fresh profile?
Dave
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Re: Freetype and Seamonkey

Dave Parsons
In reply to this post by Dave Yeo-3
On 01-06-19 20:15, Dave Yeo wrote:

> Dave Parsons wrote:
>> On 01-06-19 04:29, Dave Yeo wrote:
>>> Dave Parsons wrote:
>>>> 0012DE40 : 524F4241 75203A54 6C62616E 6F742065 : ABORT: unable to
>>>>  0012DE50 : 6E696620 20612064 62617375 6620656C :  find a usable f
>>>>  0012DE60 : 20746E6F 72657328 3A296669 6C696620 : ont (serif): fil
>>>>  0012DE70 : 3A442065 6573552F 642F7372 2F6B696D : e D:/Users/dmik/
>>>>  0012DE80 : 626D7072 646C6975 4955422F 6D2F444C : rpmbuild/BUILD/m
>>>>  0012DE90 : 6C697A6F 6F2D616C 462D3273 46455249 : ozilla-os2-FIREF
>>>>  0012DEA0 : 345F584F 5F395F35 72736530 4C45525F : OX_45_9_0esr_REL
>>>>  0012DEB0 : 45534145 32534F5F 3241475F 7866672F : EASE_OS2_GA2/gfx
>>>>  0012DEC0 : 6568742F 2F736562 54786667 52747865 : /thebes/gfxTextR
>>>>  0012DED0 : 632E6E75 202C7070 656E696C 36383120 : un.cpp, line 186
>>>
>>> This seems to be the problem.
>>> What happens if you run (without quotes)
>>> "fc-match serif"
>>
>> E:\>fc-match serif
>> DEJAVUSERIF.TTF: "DejaVu Serif" "Book"
>
> Weird, it should use that. I guess it could be profile related. Have you
> tried a fresh profile? if that works, you could backup prefs.js and then
> search for serif and try removing any lines that reference it.
> Really I guess a bug report should be filed against fontconfig as this
> is a definite regression and even if there was no matching serif, it
> should fall back to something. fc-match -s serif should give a list of
> fallbacks.

E:\>fc-match -s serif
DEJAVUSERIF.TTF: "DejaVu Serif" "Book"
DEJAVUSERIF-BOLD.TTF: "DejaVu Serif" "Bold"
DEJAVUSERIF-ITALIC.TTF: "DejaVu Serif" "Italic"
DEJAVUSERIF-BOLDITALIC.TTF: "DejaVu Serif" "Bold Italic"
TNR.PFB: "Times New Roman" "Regular"
OPENS___.TTF: "OpenSymbol" "Regular"
DEJAVUSANS.TTF: "DejaVu Sans" "Book"
DEJAVUSANSMONO.TTF: "DejaVu Sans Mono" "Book"
TNRWT_J.TTF: "Times New Roman WT J" "Regular"
MTSANSDJ.TTF: "Monotype Sans Duospace WT J" "Regular"
SourceCodePro-Regular.otf: "Source Code Pro" "Regular"
SourceSansPro-Regular.otf: "Source Sans Pro" "Regular"
LIBERATIONSERIF-REGULAR.TTF: "Liberation Serif" "Regular"
HEURISTICA-REGULAR.TTF: "Heuristica" "Regular"
LOTUS1.PFB: "LotusLineDraw" "Regular"
SYMB.PFB: "Symbol Set" "Regular"
DEJAVUSANS-BOLD.TTF: "DejaVu Sans" "Bold"
DEJAVUSANSMONO-BOLD.TTF: "DejaVu Sans Mono" "Bold"
LIBERATIONSERIF-ITALIC.TTF: "Liberation Serif" "Italic"
HEURISTICA-ITALIC.TTF: "Heuristica" "Italic"
DEJAVUSANS-OBLIQUE.TTF: "DejaVu Sans" "Oblique"
DEJAVUSANS-BOLDOBLIQUE.TTF: "DejaVu Sans" "Bold Oblique"
DINGBATS.TTF: "Dingbats" "Regular"

E:\>

Where is the best place to report this kind of problem?

>
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately SET LIBCX_HIGHMEM=2 didn't help with AOO.
>>
>
> Too bad, thought I saw someone used that as a solution. Have you tried
> running it on a freshly booted system?
> Dave

I don't think it has anything to do with profiles. It started happening
on 2 separate machines (Intel Notebook & AMD desktop) at the same time
after performing the same upgrade via ANPM.

Dave P.

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Re: Freetype and Seamonkey

Dave Yeo-3
Dave Parsons wrote:
> Where is the best place to report this kind of problem?
>

Good question. Bitwise is slowly moving to Github, but still has a lot
of stuff on netlabs. Probably Netlabs under the Unix Ports project.
If you do file a ticket, please post the ticket number.

>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Unfortunately SET LIBCX_HIGHMEM=2 didn't help with AOO.
>>>
>>
>> Too bad, thought I saw someone used that as a solution. Have you tried
>> running it on a freshly booted system?
>> Dave
>
> I don't think it has anything to do with profiles. It started happening
> on 2 separate machines (Intel Notebook & AMD desktop) at the same time
> after performing the same upgrade via ANPM.

I take it both machines are running eCS. The only other thing is the
fonts that are installed. You're and Harald's reports are the only ones
I've seen about problems and Harald is running AOS, so should have the
same fonts as me
Dave
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Re: Freetype and Seamonkey

Harald Kamm
In reply to this post by Dave Yeo-3
On Sat, 1 Jun 2019 18:15:56 UTC, Dave Yeo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Have you tested a fresh profile?

Having been abroad for some days, I can pick up testing only now. A fresh profile doesn't
help, unfortunately.

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Re: Freetype and Seamonkey

Harald Kamm
In reply to this post by Dave Parsons
On Sat, 1 Jun 2019 17:30:11 UTC, Dave Parsons <[hidden email]> wrote:

> E:\>fc-match serif
> DEJAVUSERIF.TTF: "DejaVu Serif" "Book"

The same output here.

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Re: Freetype and Seamonkey

Dave Yeo-3
On 06/04/19 10:12 PM, Harald Kamm wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Jun 2019 17:30:11 UTC, Dave Parsons <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> E:\>fc-match serif
>> DEJAVUSERIF.TTF: "DejaVu Serif" "Book"
> The same output here.

You're also running eCS?
Dave
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Re: Freetype and Seamonkey

Dave Parsons
In reply to this post by Dave Yeo-3
On 03-06-19 17:19, Dave Yeo wrote:
> Dave Parsons wrote:
>> Where is the best place to report this kind of problem?
>>
>
> Good question. Bitwise is slowly moving to Github, but still has a lot
> of stuff on netlabs. Probably Netlabs under the Unix Ports project.
> If you do file a ticket, please post the ticket number.
Will do

>
> I take it both machines are running eCS. The only other thing is the
> fonts that are installed. You're and Harald's reports are the only ones
> I've seen about problems and Harald is running AOS, so should have the
> same fonts as me
> Dave

Yes, both running eCS2.2.beta 2. Both machines also have eCS2.1 without
the libcn changes & can access the data files on their respective 2.2b2
partitions successfully.

I'm not sure what more we can achieve without debug information.
I've search through all the old CDs but can't find anything. Do you know
whether it's available anywhere? Reading the readme that came with AOO3
it is supposed to create a log file if it crashes but I can't find one
anywhere.

The only other thing I can add is that I tried running it from the
command line to catch anything it might say. The program crashes while
displaying the splash screen with the following output:

getSingleton enter
getSingleton singletonCreated 0
getSingleton singletonCreating
getSingleton singletonCreating done
getSingleton leave
getSingleton enter
getSingleton singletonCreated 1
getSingleton leave
getSingleton enter
getSingleton singletonCreated 1
getSingleton leave
getSingleton enter
getSingleton singletonCreated 1
getSingleton leave

The loop repeats 16 times.

Dave P.

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Re: Freetype and Seamonkey

Harald Kamm
In reply to this post by Dave Yeo-3
On Wed, 5 Jun 2019 05:49:14 UTC, Dave Yeo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You're also running eCS?

My main system is still based on Warp 4 which was continuousley updated.

Best, Harald

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Re: Freetype and Seamonkey

Dave Yeo-3
In reply to this post by Dave Parsons
Dave Parsons wrote:

> On 03-06-19 17:19, Dave Yeo wrote:
>> Dave Parsons wrote:
>>> Where is the best place to report this kind of problem?
>>>
>>
>> Good question. Bitwise is slowly moving to Github, but still has a lot
>> of stuff on netlabs. Probably Netlabs under the Unix Ports project.
>> If you do file a ticket, please post the ticket number.
> Will do
>
>>
>> I take it both machines are running eCS. The only other thing is the
>> fonts that are installed. You're and Harald's reports are the only ones
>> I've seen about problems and Harald is running AOS, so should have the
>> same fonts as me
>> Dave
>
> Yes, both running eCS2.2.beta 2. Both machines also have eCS2.1 without
> the libcn changes & can access the data files on their respective 2.2b2
> partitions successfully.
>
> I'm not sure what more we can achieve without debug information.
> I've search through all the old CDs but can't find anything. Do you know
> whether it's available anywhere? Reading the readme that came with AOO3
> it is supposed to create a log file if it crashes but I can't find one
> anywhere.
>
> The only other thing I can add is that I tried running it from the
> command line to catch anything it might say. The program crashes while
> displaying the splash screen with the following output:
>
> getSingleton enter
> getSingleton singletonCreated 0
> getSingleton singletonCreating
> getSingleton singletonCreating done
> getSingleton leave
> getSingleton enter
> getSingleton singletonCreated 1
> getSingleton leave
> getSingleton enter
> getSingleton singletonCreated 1
> getSingleton leave
> getSingleton enter
> getSingleton singletonCreated 1
> getSingleton leave
>
> The loop repeats 16 times.
>
> Dave P.
>

Not sure if you will get any fixes for old versions of AOO, I think you
will be told to update to the latest, probably a good idea, but Bitwise
wants a donation for access to the binaries.
Dave
ps I can reproduce the firefox trp and opened
http://trac.netlabs.org/ports/ticket/210#ticket
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Re: Freetype and Seamonkey

Dave Yeo-3
In reply to this post by Harald Kamm
Harald Kamm wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Jun 2019 05:49:14 UTC, Dave Yeo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> You're also running eCS?
> My main system is still based on Warp 4 which was continuousley updated.

You must have similar fonts installed as a eCS system. I can reproduce
the crash by forcing fontconfig to use an eCS psfonts directory and
opened a ticket, http://trac.netlabs.org/ports/ticket/210#ticket.
For now, you can downgrade fontconfig and freetype, might have to do it
on the cmd line if ANPM isn't happy downgrading both. It's reasons like
this that it isn't encouraged using the experimental repository.
Otherwise you can try installing different fonts or uninstalling DejaVu
fonts, which I _think_ are the problem.
Dave
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