Firefox 4 dumbing down?

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Firefox 4 dumbing down?

EE-2
I have been looking at the wiki.mozilla.org page at the proposed new
interfaces for Firefox 4.  I depend on the menu bar a lot, and would not
like that to be removed.  I also use the bookmarks toolbar buttons, and
would not like to see those reduced to one button.  On the toolbar, the
reload button is not there any more.  I use that quite a bit also.  What
is the point of gutting the interface like that anyway?
Must the developers treat people like kindergarten kids who cannot
understand anything that is a bit more complex?
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Re: Firefox 4 dumbing down?

Jim S-2
On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 11:27:22 -0700, EE wrote:

> I have been looking at the wiki.mozilla.org page at the proposed new
> interfaces for Firefox 4.  I depend on the menu bar a lot, and would not
> like that to be removed.  I also use the bookmarks toolbar buttons, and
> would not like to see those reduced to one button.  On the toolbar, the
> reload button is not there any more.  I use that quite a bit also.  What
> is the point of gutting the interface like that anyway?
> Must the developers treat people like kindergarten kids who cannot
> understand anything that is a bit more complex?

They should also note that several IE7/8 users appear to have moved to FF
as they missed the familiar and sensible layout.
--
Jim S
        Tyneside UK
     www.jimscott.co.uk
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Re: Firefox 4 dumbing down?

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by EE-2
EE wrote:
> I have been looking at the wiki.mozilla.org page at the proposed new
> interfaces for Firefox 4.  I depend on the menu bar a lot, and would not
> like that to be removed.  I also use the bookmarks toolbar buttons, and
> would not like to see those reduced to one button.  On the toolbar, the
> reload button is not there any more.  I use that quite a bit also.  What
> is the point of gutting the interface like that anyway?
> Must the developers treat people like kindergarten kids who cannot
> understand anything that is a bit more complex?

I certainly agree about the bookmarks toolbar, which is my main way to
run everything.  My interface is minimal, but I could certainly go with
recovering that Windows title bar space for better use.  As long as they
preserve the ability to customize the interface any way I want, I don't
really care that much, but I STILL contend that Firefox should have a
basic 'trademark' interface, rather than copying IE, or Chrome, as they
appear to intend.
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Re: Firefox 4 dumbing down?

JM-43
In reply to this post by EE-2
EE wrote:
> I have been looking at the wiki.mozilla.org page at the proposed new
> interfaces for Firefox 4.  I depend on the menu bar a lot, and would not
> like that to be removed.  I also use the bookmarks toolbar buttons, and
> would not like to see those reduced to one button.  On the toolbar, the
> reload button is not there any more.  I use that quite a bit also.  What
> is the point of gutting the interface like that anyway?
> Must the developers treat people like kindergarten kids who cannot
> understand anything that is a bit more complex?

I don't even like the pictures I've seen of firefox 3.7, much less of 4.
I use the bookmarks toolbar every time I open firefox. The menu bar is
definitely something that they should leave alone. I don't want the stop
and reload buttons combined either. Firefox 4 looks like a combination
of Safari, Google Chrome, and Firefox 3.5. I can deal with some of the
changes in 3.5, such as the new firefox icon and the absence of a close
button when there's only one tab-but they are taking things too far with
4. If it stays that way, 3.5 might be my last major update.
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Re: Firefox 4 dumbing down?

Ron Hunter
JM wrote:

> EE wrote:
>> I have been looking at the wiki.mozilla.org page at the proposed new
>> interfaces for Firefox 4.  I depend on the menu bar a lot, and would not
>> like that to be removed.  I also use the bookmarks toolbar buttons, and
>> would not like to see those reduced to one button.  On the toolbar, the
>> reload button is not there any more.  I use that quite a bit also.  What
>> is the point of gutting the interface like that anyway?
>> Must the developers treat people like kindergarten kids who cannot
>> understand anything that is a bit more complex?
>
> I don't even like the pictures I've seen of firefox 3.7, much less of 4.
> I use the bookmarks toolbar every time I open firefox. The menu bar is
> definitely something that they should leave alone. I don't want the stop
> and reload buttons combined either. Firefox 4 looks like a combination
> of Safari, Google Chrome, and Firefox 3.5. I can deal with some of the
> changes in 3.5, such as the new firefox icon and the absence of a close
> button when there's only one tab-but they are taking things too far with
> 4. If it stays that way, 3.5 might be my last major update.

I still want a distinctive 'look and feel' that says FIREFOX, rather
than a 'me too' copy of IE or Chrome, or whatever.
While I strongly agree with attempts to maximize the usable screen space
for the website, or application, some things MUST remain, and the
bookmarks toolbar, for me, is indispensable.  If it goes, I go.
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Re: Firefox 4 dumbing down?

JM-43
Ron Hunter wrote:

> JM wrote:
>> EE wrote:
>>> I have been looking at the wiki.mozilla.org page at the proposed new
>>> interfaces for Firefox 4.  I depend on the menu bar a lot, and would
>>> not like that to be removed.  I also use the bookmarks toolbar
>>> buttons, and would not like to see those reduced to one button.  On
>>> the toolbar, the reload button is not there any more.  I use that
>>> quite a bit also.  What is the point of gutting the interface like
>>> that anyway?
>>> Must the developers treat people like kindergarten kids who cannot
>>> understand anything that is a bit more complex?
>>
>> I don't even like the pictures I've seen of firefox 3.7, much less of
>> 4. I use the bookmarks toolbar every time I open firefox. The menu bar
>> is definitely something that they should leave alone. I don't want the
>> stop and reload buttons combined either. Firefox 4 looks like a
>> combination of Safari, Google Chrome, and Firefox 3.5. I can deal with
>> some of the changes in 3.5, such as the new firefox icon and the
>> absence of a close button when there's only one tab-but they are
>> taking things too far with 4. If it stays that way, 3.5 might be my
>> last major update.
>
> I still want a distinctive 'look and feel' that says FIREFOX, rather
> than a 'me too' copy of IE or Chrome, or whatever.
> While I strongly agree with attempts to maximize the usable screen space
> for the website, or application, some things MUST remain, and the
> bookmarks toolbar, for me, is indispensable.  If it goes, I go.
I definitely agree that firefox shouldn't copy other browsers and have
its own look/feel. As for maximizing the usable screen space, I think
3.5 does a good job of that and I personally wouldn't try to change
anything. And yes, I don't want the bookmarks toolbar to go either.
It is very useful.
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Re: Firefox 4 dumbing down?

Jack Gillis


"JM" <nospam@nospam> wrote in message
news:[hidden email]...

> Ron Hunter wrote:
>> JM wrote:
>>> EE wrote:
>>>> I have been looking at the wiki.mozilla.org page at the proposed new
>>>> interfaces for Firefox 4.  I depend on the menu bar a lot, and would
>>>> not like that to be removed.  I also use the bookmarks toolbar buttons,
>>>> and would not like to see those reduced to one button.  On the toolbar,
>>>> the reload button is not there any more.  I use that quite a bit also.
>>>> What is the point of gutting the interface like that anyway?
>>>> Must the developers treat people like kindergarten kids who cannot
>>>> understand anything that is a bit more complex?
>>>
>>> I don't even like the pictures I've seen of firefox 3.7, much less of 4.
>>> I use the bookmarks toolbar every time I open firefox. The menu bar is
>>> definitely something that they should leave alone. I don't want the stop
>>> and reload buttons combined either. Firefox 4 looks like a combination
>>> of Safari, Google Chrome, and Firefox 3.5. I can deal with some of the
>>> changes in 3.5, such as the new firefox icon and the absence of a close
>>> button when there's only one tab-but they are taking things too far with
>>> 4. If it stays that way, 3.5 might be my last major update.
>>
>> I still want a distinctive 'look and feel' that says FIREFOX, rather than
>> a 'me too' copy of IE or Chrome, or whatever.
>> While I strongly agree with attempts to maximize the usable screen space
>> for the website, or application, some things MUST remain, and the
>> bookmarks toolbar, for me, is indispensable.  If it goes, I go.
> I definitely agree that firefox shouldn't copy other browsers and have its
> own look/feel. As for maximizing the usable screen space, I think 3.5 does
> a good job of that and I personally wouldn't try to change anything. And
> yes, I don't want the bookmarks toolbar to go either.
> It is very useful.

I agree about removing the Bookmarks Toolbar.  I use it every time I load
Firefox.  PLEASE DON'T ELIMINATE IT.  (Yes, I know I shouted!)

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Re: Firefox 4 dumbing down?

Barnes
Jack Gillis wrote:
> I agree about removing the Bookmarks Toolbar.  I use it every time I load
> Firefox.  PLEASE DON'T ELIMINATE IT.  (Yes, I know I shouted!)

And now for another point of view:   I jumped through massive hurdles to
not only hide the bookmarks toolbar, but to eliminate it from my FF3.x
completely....

I despise the thing...



--

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Chris Barnes                              AOL IM: CNBarnes
[hidden email]                      Yahoo IM: chrisnbarnes

You always have freedom of choice, but you never have freedom of
consequence.
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Re: Firefox 4 dumbing down?

BJ-20
In reply to this post by EE-2
EE wrote:
> I have been looking at the wiki.mozilla.org page at the proposed new
> interfaces for Firefox 4.  I depend on the menu bar a lot, and would not
> like that to be removed.  I also use the bookmarks toolbar buttons, and
> would not like to see those reduced to one button.  On the toolbar, the
> reload button is not there any more.  I use that quite a bit also.  What
> is the point of gutting the interface like that anyway?
> Must the developers treat people like kindergarten kids who cannot
> understand anything that is a bit more complex?

Do the devs look at this NG?  While I wouldn't classify the responses
here as a "groundswell", they do indeed reflect that some experienced
users think that FF is going down the wrong path.

While I wouldn't put myself in the category of "experienced user",
though I do know my way around an OS (Windows and Ubuntu) and browsers,
I do in fact agree with all the comments that have been made here.

Is there a way we can communicate these concerns to the devs (not that
they would listen, but at least if FF goes south, we can say "I told you
so")

BJ

--
Bob Jamieson

Anti-spam measures are included in my email address.
Delete all the NOSPAMs from the email address after clicking Reply.
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Re: Firefox 4 dumbing down?

BJ-20
BJ wrote:

> EE wrote:
>> I have been looking at the wiki.mozilla.org page at the proposed new
>> interfaces for Firefox 4.  I depend on the menu bar a lot, and would
>> not like that to be removed.  I also use the bookmarks toolbar
>> buttons, and would not like to see those reduced to one button.  On
>> the toolbar, the reload button is not there any more.  I use that
>> quite a bit also.  What is the point of gutting the interface like
>> that anyway?
>> Must the developers treat people like kindergarten kids who cannot
>> understand anything that is a bit more complex?
>
> Do the devs look at this NG?  While I wouldn't classify the responses
> here as a "groundswell", they do indeed reflect that some experienced
> users think that FF is going down the wrong path.
>
> While I wouldn't put myself in the category of "experienced user",
> though I do know my way around an OS (Windows and Ubuntu) and browsers,
> I do in fact agree with all the comments that have been made here.
>
> Is there a way we can communicate these concerns to the devs (not that
> they would listen, but at least if FF goes south, we can say "I told you
> so")
>
> BJ
>
Whooops . . . seems as though I may have spoken too soon.  Didn't (or
couldn't because the post was made at the same time) take into account
Chris B's remark.

Still, the majority (so far, anyway) seems to disagree with the FF
direction.

BJ

--
Bob Jamieson

Anti-spam measures are included in my email address.
Delete all the NOSPAMs from the email address after clicking Reply.
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Re: Firefox 4 dumbing down?

The Real Bev
In reply to this post by Barnes
Chris Barnes wrote:

> Jack Gillis wrote:
>> I agree about removing the Bookmarks Toolbar.  I use it every time I load
>> Firefox.  PLEASE DON'T ELIMINATE IT.  (Yes, I know I shouted!)
>
> And now for another point of view:   I jumped through massive hurdles to
> not only hide the bookmarks toolbar, but to eliminate it from my FF3.x
> completely....
>
> I despise the thing...

So did I.  Then I took off the default crap and put stuff on it that *I* wanted
and now I like it.  I suppose I could just move that stuff to the top of my
bookmarks page, but I already have stuff there that I want.

--
Cheers, Bev
=================================================================
"There's an apocryphal (I hope not !) story about a Bristol bike
thief found cold, wet and bedraggled one morning, D locked by the
neck to a local bridge."                                  -- Anon
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Re: Firefox 4 dumbing down?

The Real Bev
In reply to this post by EE-2
EE wrote:

> I have been looking at the wiki.mozilla.org page at the proposed new
> interfaces for Firefox 4.  

Got a URL?  I hunted around for a while with no success.

--
Cheers, Bev
=================================================================
"There's an apocryphal (I hope not !) story about a Bristol bike
thief found cold, wet and bedraggled one morning, D locked by the
neck to a local bridge."                                  -- Anon
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Re: Firefox 4 dumbing down?

David McRitchie-2
In reply to this post by The Real Bev
"The Real Bev" ...
> Chris Barnes wrote:
>> I despise the thing...    [bookmarks toolbar]
>
> So did I.  Then I took off the default crap and put stuff on it that *I* wanted
> and now I like it.  I suppose I could just move that stuff to the top of my
> bookmarks page, but I already have stuff there that I want.
 
Well yes, there is absolutely nothing that I want on the supplied toolbar.
and therefore on that basis it would  be right to get rid of it.    But with
my stuff on it, that is entirely another matter.   I have almost only folders
on the toolbar, and that makes it very simple to get to the bookmark that
I want to get to.  To give you a quick look at what my bookmarks toolbar
looks like see.    (about 2/3 height of original, and about half size on width)
    Bookmarks Toolbar Blue/Folders, Red/Bookmarks | userstyles.org
    http://userstyles.org/styles/9091

I found the  Firefox 4 mock-ups,  
    Firefox 4.0 theme mockups - Mozilla Links
    http://mozillalinks.org/wp/2009/07/firefox-4-0-theme-mockups/
I'd seen them before,  there is nothing there
to say that they got rid of the bookmarks toolbar,  you always had ability  to take
it out of view.   The interesting thing is that they dumped the title bar,  I like the
title bar but would like control over it,  like exactly 1/2 the height would be nice,
so I still have all wording and controls.   Without the title bar my arrangement, I think,
uses about the same space and I have 4 toolbars  .   Can't tell for sure, but  I think that
their mockup is reduced in size.    Examples of mine.  If you move the cursor over them
and see a plus sign click on the image to see it full size.
   http://userstyles.org/styles/9349
   http://userstyles.org/styles/13115
Although the pictures don't show it,  I do remove the  down arrow from the
unified  back/forward button similar to the Firefox  4 mockup.
  #back-forward-dropmarker{display:none!important} /* use Right-click to view dropdown */

 
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Re: Firefox 4 dumbing down?

Ron Hunter
David McRitchie wrote:

> "The Real Bev" ...
>> Chris Barnes wrote:
>>> I despise the thing...    [bookmarks toolbar]
>> So did I.  Then I took off the default crap and put stuff on it that *I* wanted
>> and now I like it.  I suppose I could just move that stuff to the top of my
>> bookmarks page, but I already have stuff there that I want.
>  
> Well yes, there is absolutely nothing that I want on the supplied toolbar.
> and therefore on that basis it would  be right to get rid of it.    But with
> my stuff on it, that is entirely another matter.   I have almost only folders
> on the toolbar, and that makes it very simple to get to the bookmark that
> I want to get to.  To give you a quick look at what my bookmarks toolbar
> looks like see.    (about 2/3 height of original, and about half size on width)
>     Bookmarks Toolbar Blue/Folders, Red/Bookmarks | userstyles.org
>     http://userstyles.org/styles/9091
>
> I found the  Firefox 4 mock-ups,  
>     Firefox 4.0 theme mockups - Mozilla Links
>     http://mozillalinks.org/wp/2009/07/firefox-4-0-theme-mockups/
> I'd seen them before,  there is nothing there
> to say that they got rid of the bookmarks toolbar,  you always had ability  to take
> it out of view.   The interesting thing is that they dumped the title bar,  I like the
> title bar but would like control over it,  like exactly 1/2 the height would be nice,
> so I still have all wording and controls.   Without the title bar my arrangement, I think,
> uses about the same space and I have 4 toolbars  .   Can't tell for sure, but  I think that
> their mockup is reduced in size.    Examples of mine.  If you move the cursor over them
> and see a plus sign click on the image to see it full size.
>    http://userstyles.org/styles/9349
>    http://userstyles.org/styles/13115
> Although the pictures don't show it,  I do remove the  down arrow from the
> unified  back/forward button similar to the Firefox  4 mockup.
>   #back-forward-dropmarker{display:none!important} /* use Right-click to view dropdown */
>
>  
Give this a try.
It's an early capture of my toolbar arrangement.
http://i309.photobucket.com/albums/kk389/rphunter42/Screenshot.jpg
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Re: Firefox 4 dumbing down?

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by BJ-20
BJ wrote:

> EE wrote:
>> I have been looking at the wiki.mozilla.org page at the proposed new
>> interfaces for Firefox 4.  I depend on the menu bar a lot, and would not
>> like that to be removed.  I also use the bookmarks toolbar buttons, and
>> would not like to see those reduced to one button.  On the toolbar, the
>> reload button is not there any more.  I use that quite a bit also.  What
>> is the point of gutting the interface like that anyway?
>> Must the developers treat people like kindergarten kids who cannot
>> understand anything that is a bit more complex?
>
> Do the devs look at this NG?  While I wouldn't classify the responses
> here as a "groundswell", they do indeed reflect that some experienced
> users think that FF is going down the wrong path.
>
> While I wouldn't put myself in the category of "experienced user",
> though I do know my way around an OS (Windows and Ubuntu) and browsers,
> I do in fact agree with all the comments that have been made here.
>
> Is there a way we can communicate these concerns to the devs (not that
> they would listen, but at least if FF goes south, we can say "I told you
> so")
>
> BJ
>
They don't listen, and AFAIK, don't care.
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Re: Firefox 4 dumbing down?

David McRitchie-2
In reply to this post by Ron Hunter
"Ron Hunter"  
> Give this a try.   It's an early capture of my toolbar arrangement.
> http://i309.photobucket.com/albums/kk389/rphunter42/Screenshot.jpg

You don't use the tabs bar?      I'd be lost without it, though sometimes
I  do hide them so they only show up on mousing over, is that what you
do.   In fact as I recall that is what the mockups of Firefox 4 did,  hide  some
toolbars until you mouse over,  in other words nothing you can't already do
with styling changes.
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Re: Firefox 4 dumbing down?

JM-43
In reply to this post by The Real Bev
The Real Bev wrote:
> EE wrote:
>
>> I have been looking at the wiki.mozilla.org page at the proposed new
>> interfaces for Firefox 4.  
>
> Got a URL?  I hunted around for a while with no success.
>

https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/4.0_Windows_Theme_Mockups

https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/3.7_Windows_Theme_Mockups
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Re: Firefox 4 dumbing down?

Ron Hunter
In reply to this post by David McRitchie-2
David McRitchie wrote:
> "Ron Hunter"  
>> Give this a try.   It's an early capture of my toolbar arrangement.
>> http://i309.photobucket.com/albums/kk389/rphunter42/Screenshot.jpg
>
> You don't use the tabs bar?      I'd be lost without it, though sometimes
> I  do hide them so they only show up on mousing over, is that what you
> do.   In fact as I recall that is what the mockups of Firefox 4 did,  hide  some
> toolbars until you mouse over,  in other words nothing you can't already do
> with styling changes.
I very rarely have tabs open.  When I do, I check through them, then
close them, and the tabs bar hides when only one tab is open.  So, yes,
it is there, just not in use in the examples.  However, for me, the
bookmarks toolbar is always in sight since it is my primary navigation
method.
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Re: Firefox 4 dumbing down?

Johnny-69
In reply to this post by JM-43
JM wrote:

> The Real Bev wrote:
>> EE wrote:
>>
>>> I have been looking at the wiki.mozilla.org page at the proposed new
>>> interfaces for Firefox 4.  
>>
>> Got a URL?  I hunted around for a while with no success.
>>
>
> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/4.0_Windows_Theme_Mockups
>
> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/3.7_Windows_Theme_Mockups

It seems like every time someone comes up with something that works,
they don't know when to stop.
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Re: Firefox 4 dumbing down?

JM-43
Johnny wrote:

> JM wrote:
>> The Real Bev wrote:
>>> EE wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have been looking at the wiki.mozilla.org page at the proposed new
>>>> interfaces for Firefox 4.  
>>>
>>> Got a URL?  I hunted around for a while with no success.
>>>
>>
>> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/4.0_Windows_Theme_Mockups
>>
>> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/3.7_Windows_Theme_Mockups
>
> It seems like every time someone comes up with something that works,
> they don't know when to stop.
Many times that is true.
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