Fennec L10n status

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Fennec L10n status

Rimas Kudelis
Hi group,

I'll be whining again, sorry in advance.

After I announced new versions of all Mozilla's apps yesterday on a
Facebook page, my attention was drawn to the fact that apparently,
Firefox for mobile is no longer available for Lithuanian for maemo.

In fact, it seems like since v6.0, it's only being made available in 15
or so languages in a 'Multi' version for Maemo (and I guess for Android
too), whereas single-language versions are simply not built anymore
(with an exception of en-US of course, which always gets special yet
sometimes hardly justifiable treatment).

My question is simple and straightforward: WTF? Should I (and about 20
other people/teams) not feel betrayed and cheated with such course of
action? After translating and signing off all I get is 15 OTHER locales
to choose from? Was it at least announced in this group or anywhere else?

I personally find it a bit silly that in those 20 languages, Fennec is
available for Linux, OS X, and Windows, yet is not available for its own
target platforms – Android and Maemo. Right now I suggested that friend
of mine to attempt to convert his Fennec into Lithuanian by installing
an XPI file from the Linux directory on Mozilla's ftp server, but is
that really the right approach we should be taking? I don't think so.

On a related note, there's also a problem with the /lt/mobile/ page (to
which Firefox home page has a link) on mozilla.com. It simply redirects
to its en-US sibling instead of redirecting to /lt/m/ or actually being
translatable. That just doesn't make sense.

Regards,
Rimas
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Re: Fennec L10n status

Michael Bauer-11

29/09/2011 12:06, sgrìobh Rimas Kudelis:
> Hi group,
>
> I'll be whining again, sorry in advance.
No, you actually beat me to it by a day or so. Last time I asked
someone, I think Axel, said people were working on some first-install
feature where you could download any non-preinstalled language so the
initial download file doesn't get too big. But as yet no sign of it - I
borrowed by brother's android phone the other day.

So yes, I'm not exactly happy either that I was told that Gaelic
wouldn't get in until *after* I'd finished it and that nothing has
happened all this time to enable it some way or other.

Michael

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Re: Fennec L10n status

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by Rimas Kudelis
On 29.09.11 13:06, Rimas Kudelis wrote:

> Hi group,
>
> I'll be whining again, sorry in advance.
>
> After I announced new versions of all Mozilla's apps yesterday on a
> Facebook page, my attention was drawn to the fact that apparently,
> Firefox for mobile is no longer available for Lithuanian for maemo.
>
> In fact, it seems like since v6.0, it's only being made available in 15
> or so languages in a 'Multi' version for Maemo (and I guess for Android
> too), whereas single-language versions are simply not built anymore
> (with an exception of en-US of course, which always gets special yet
> sometimes hardly justifiable treatment).
>
> My question is simple and straightforward: WTF? Should I (and about 20
> other people/teams) not feel betrayed and cheated with such course of
> action? After translating and signing off all I get is 15 OTHER locales
> to choose from? Was it at least announced in this group or anywhere else?

To be quite honest, I have no idea what's going on.
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=690322.

For context, I have no visibility into whether we have mobile builds or
not. Also, the folks that I talked to in the mobile team have left,
Stuart is working on a different project within mozilla, Thomas left
mozilla for other ventures last week. There are no real replacements.

> I personally find it a bit silly that in those 20 languages, Fennec is
> available for Linux, OS X, and Windows, yet is not available for its own
> target platforms – Android and Maemo. Right now I suggested that friend
> of mine to attempt to convert his Fennec into Lithuanian by installing
> an XPI file from the Linux directory on Mozilla's ftp server, but is
> that really the right approach we should be taking? I don't think so.

Thomas was the guy to drive the first-run experience to install language
packs from AMO.
https://wiki.mozilla.org/Mobile/Projects/Firstrun_language_choice 
doesn't cover it really, there's more progress in various bugs. I don't
have an ETA for you, though.

> On a related note, there's also a problem with the /lt/mobile/ page (to
> which Firefox home page has a link) on mozilla.com. It simply redirects
> to its en-US sibling instead of redirecting to /lt/m/ or actually being
> translatable. That just doesn't make sense.

I also recommend filing a bug on this,
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Websites, component
mozilla.org/firefox (that's what we call the old mozilla.com infra now,
I hope that's right for the mobile stuff, too).

I'm not satisfied with our l10n story on mobile. It's in a different
environment than desktop, due to app markets and their constraints, but
we haven't come up with an l10n plan that allows me or other l10n
drivers to communicate in terms of what happens when, or have mobile
guys stake a stand before the l10n community. It's a bad situation to be
in. We know what we want, see the above wiki doc, but we'll get there
when we get there. That's all I can sign.

Axel
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Re: Fennec L10n status

Julen Ruiz Aizpuru
In reply to this post by Michael Bauer-11
2011/9/29 Michael Bauer <[hidden email]>:

>
> 29/09/2011 12:06, sgrìobh Rimas Kudelis:
>>
>> Hi group,
>>
>> I'll be whining again, sorry in advance.
>
> No, you actually beat me to it by a day or so. Last time I asked someone, I
> think Axel, said people were working on some first-install feature where you
> could download any non-preinstalled language so the initial download file
> doesn't get too big. But as yet no sign of it - I borrowed by brother's
> android phone the other day.
>

I was going to write about this topic too.

This has to be the first-install language choice feature you are
talking about, Michael:
https://wiki.mozilla.org/Fennec/Features/langchoice

As I see, there's only a set of bundled languages, so even if you can
choose and switch languages, if your language is not "big" enough,
then that's the same as having no choice. That wiki page says there
will be some language packs at some stage, but in the meantime I see
our localization effort can't be delivered to users.

On a related note, and referring to "the first-run will detect the
Android OS language and auto-install languages from AMO":
Let me add that that may fit perfectly in most of the situations, but
there are some languages that are not (officially) supported by
Android and have a localized version of Firefox Mobile. So
auto-installing language packs based on the OS language may limit/rest
the visibility of smaller languages that are available to the user but
lack support in Android.

Julen.
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Re: Fennec L10n status

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by Michael Bauer-11
On 29.09.11 14:46, Julen Ruiz Aizpuru wrote:

> 2011/9/29 Michael Bauer<[hidden email]>:
>>
>> 29/09/2011 12:06, sgrìobh Rimas Kudelis:
>>>
>>> Hi group,
>>>
>>> I'll be whining again, sorry in advance.
>>
>> No, you actually beat me to it by a day or so. Last time I asked someone, I
>> think Axel, said people were working on some first-install feature where you
>> could download any non-preinstalled language so the initial download file
>> doesn't get too big. But as yet no sign of it - I borrowed by brother's
>> android phone the other day.
>>
>
> I was going to write about this topic too.
>
> This has to be the first-install language choice feature you are
> talking about, Michael:
> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Fennec/Features/langchoice
>
> As I see, there's only a set of bundled languages, so even if you can
> choose and switch languages, if your language is not "big" enough,
> then that's the same as having no choice. That wiki page says there
> will be some language packs at some stage, but in the meantime I see
> our localization effort can't be delivered to users.
>
> On a related note, and referring to "the first-run will detect the
> Android OS language and auto-install languages from AMO":
> Let me add that that may fit perfectly in most of the situations, but
> there are some languages that are not (officially) supported by
> Android and have a localized version of Firefox Mobile. So
> auto-installing language packs based on the OS language may limit/rest
> the visibility of smaller languages that are available to the user but
> lack support in Android.

The point of langpacks download from AMO is exactly to support languages
that are not supported on Android.

Axel
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Re: Fennec L10n status

Robert Kaiser
Axel Hecht schrieb:
> The point of langpacks download from AMO is exactly to support languages
> that are not supported on Android.

Of course, it doesn't help that you need to go through the lengthy AMO
review process even if you upload langpacks created out of the official
Mozilla build processes.

Robert Kaiser

--
Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never
meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible
arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the
time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :)
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Re: Fennec L10n status

Armen Zambrano G.
On 11-09-29 11:01 AM, Robert Kaiser wrote:

> Axel Hecht schrieb:
>> The point of langpacks download from AMO is exactly to support languages
>> that are not supported on Android.
>
> Of course, it doesn't help that you need to go through the lengthy AMO
> review process even if you upload langpacks created out of the official
> Mozilla build processes.
>
> Robert Kaiser
>
really? do you know if there is a reasoning behind it?
I would expect them to just show up immediately since it comes from us.

Are you aware of a bug filed for this? or the process explained somewhere?

cheers,
Armen
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Re: Fennec L10n status

Axel Hecht
On 29.09.11 17:14, Armen Zambrano Gasparnian wrote:

> On 11-09-29 11:01 AM, Robert Kaiser wrote:
>> Axel Hecht schrieb:
>>> The point of langpacks download from AMO is exactly to support languages
>>> that are not supported on Android.
>>
>> Of course, it doesn't help that you need to go through the lengthy AMO
>> review process even if you upload langpacks created out of the official
>> Mozilla build processes.
>>
>> Robert Kaiser
>>
> really? do you know if there is a reasoning behind it?
> I would expect them to just show up immediately since it comes from us.
>
> Are you aware of a bug filed for this? or the process explained somewhere?

As Robert said, "out of the official Mozilla build processes".

All the other stuff is covered in the various bugs around the langpack
story.

Axel
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Re: Fennec L10n status

Michael Bauer-11
In reply to this post by Julen Ruiz Aizpuru

29/09/2011 13:46, sgrìobh Julen Ruiz Aizpuru:
> Let me add that that may fit perfectly in most of the situations, but
> there are some languages that are not (officially) supported by
> Android and have a localized version of Firefox Mobile. So
> auto-installing language packs based on the OS language may limit/rest
> the visibility of smaller languages that are available to the user but
> lack support in Android.
That feature of forcing the interface language to that of the OS
language makes me scream every time I see it. That so had to be a
monolingual who thought that up. For one, as you point out, there are
more localised applications etc than localised OS and secondly, a user
may very well want to install some of their software in another
language. It's Windows-esque.

Michael
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Re: Fennec L10n status

Robert Kaiser
In reply to this post by Armen Zambrano G.
Armen Zambrano Gasparnian schrieb:

> On 11-09-29 11:01 AM, Robert Kaiser wrote:
>> Axel Hecht schrieb:
>>> The point of langpacks download from AMO is exactly to support languages
>>> that are not supported on Android.
>>
>> Of course, it doesn't help that you need to go through the lengthy AMO
>> review process even if you upload langpacks created out of the official
>> Mozilla build processes.
>>
>> Robert Kaiser
>>
> really? do you know if there is a reasoning behind it?

The reasoning is that any add-on submitted goes through the process.
It's also probably not 100% easy to see that if someone submits a
langpack if it is created by the Mozilla machines or not.

> I would expect them to just show up immediately since it comes from us.

How should they detect that?

> Are you aware of a bug filed for this? or the process explained somewhere?

I know of no bug. I just know it takes a week or more when I submit
SeaMonkey langpacks, even if I mention that it's the official langpack.

Robert Kaiser


--
Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never
meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible
arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the
time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :)
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Re: Fennec L10n status

Julen Ruiz Aizpuru
In reply to this post by Axel Hecht
og., 2011.eko iraren 29a 15:07(e)an, Axel Hecht(e)k idatzi zuen:

> On 29.09.11 14:46, Julen Ruiz Aizpuru wrote:
>>
>> On a related note, and referring to "the first-run will detect the
>> Android OS language and auto-install languages from AMO":
>> Let me add that that may fit perfectly in most of the situations, but
>> there are some languages that are not (officially) supported by
>> Android and have a localized version of Firefox Mobile. So
>> auto-installing language packs based on the OS language may limit/rest
>> the visibility of smaller languages that are available to the user but
>> lack support in Android.
>
> The point of langpacks download from AMO is exactly to support languages
> that are not supported on Android.
>

Yes, that's fine. But my comment was related to visibility.

Let's say a Basque user has Android in Spanish or French because Basque
is not supported in Android. If I understand this correctly and
according to the proposed behaviour, the Basque user will get Firefox in
Spanish or French automatically. But s/he will never notice there's a
Basque version of Firefox available, and will keep using the browser in
the default language.

Just wanted to point that out.
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Re: Fennec L10n status

Jesper Kristensen-4
In reply to this post by Armen Zambrano G.
Den 29-09-2011 17:14, Armen Zambrano Gasparnian skrev:

> On 11-09-29 11:01 AM, Robert Kaiser wrote:
>> Axel Hecht schrieb:
>>> The point of langpacks download from AMO is exactly to support languages
>>> that are not supported on Android.
>>
>> Of course, it doesn't help that you need to go through the lengthy AMO
>> review process even if you upload langpacks created out of the official
>> Mozilla build processes.
>>
>> Robert Kaiser
>>
> really? do you know if there is a reasoning behind it?
> I would expect them to just show up immediately since it comes from us.
>
> Are you aware of a bug filed for this? or the process explained somewhere?
>
> cheers,
> Armen

I think that is related to
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=485617 though maybe not
exactly the same.
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Re: Fennec L10n status

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by Robert Kaiser
On 29.09.11 20:31, Robert Kaiser wrote:

> Armen Zambrano Gasparnian schrieb:
>> On 11-09-29 11:01 AM, Robert Kaiser wrote:
>>> Axel Hecht schrieb:
>>>> The point of langpacks download from AMO is exactly to support
>>>> languages
>>>> that are not supported on Android.
>>>
>>> Of course, it doesn't help that you need to go through the lengthy AMO
>>> review process even if you upload langpacks created out of the official
>>> Mozilla build processes.
>>>
>>> Robert Kaiser
>>>
>> really? do you know if there is a reasoning behind it?
>
> The reasoning is that any add-on submitted goes through the process.
> It's also probably not 100% easy to see that if someone submits a
> langpack if it is created by the Mozilla machines or not.
>
>> I would expect them to just show up immediately since it comes from us.
>
> How should they detect that?
>
>> Are you aware of a bug filed for this? or the process explained
>> somewhere?
>
> I know of no bug. I just know it takes a week or more when I submit
> SeaMonkey langpacks, even if I mention that it's the official langpack.
>

I lost track of the bugs around the mobile/amo/langpack story. They're
many and not linked to each other.

There is a bug, and there is an API on AMO to hook in to, and there's
not going to be a review process. That's it, everything else is a bug
that's just going to get fixed before we close the deal.

Axel
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Re: Fennec L10n status

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by Rimas Kudelis
To quote from the bug I had filed, resolved INVALID, sadly:

> That's on purpose.
> We haven't done single locale builds on Maemo for a long time.
>
> Bug 630475 means they don't launch.
>
> We kept repacking them anyway to create the .xpi files, but during bug 574764
> we started running mobile l10n repacks on windows, mac, and linux mobile
> builds.  Since langpack xpis are non-platform-specific, and since single locale
> Maemo repacks don't launch, we stopped running Maemo single locale repacks.
>
> This has been the case for a number of releases.

Axel
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Re: Fennec L10n status

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by Axel Hecht
On 29.09.11 22:23, Julen Ruiz Aizpuru wrote:

> og., 2011.eko iraren 29a 15:07(e)an, Axel Hecht(e)k idatzi zuen:
>> On 29.09.11 14:46, Julen Ruiz Aizpuru wrote:
>>>
>>> On a related note, and referring to "the first-run will detect the
>>> Android OS language and auto-install languages from AMO":
>>> Let me add that that may fit perfectly in most of the situations, but
>>> there are some languages that are not (officially) supported by
>>> Android and have a localized version of Firefox Mobile. So
>>> auto-installing language packs based on the OS language may limit/rest
>>> the visibility of smaller languages that are available to the user but
>>> lack support in Android.
>>
>> The point of langpacks download from AMO is exactly to support languages
>> that are not supported on Android.
>>
>
> Yes, that's fine. But my comment was related to visibility.
>
> Let's say a Basque user has Android in Spanish or French because Basque
> is not supported in Android. If I understand this correctly and
> according to the proposed behaviour, the Basque user will get Firefox in
> Spanish or French automatically. But s/he will never notice there's a
> Basque version of Firefox available, and will keep using the browser in
> the default language.
>
> Just wanted to point that out.

Looking at http://www.flickr.com/photos/49885370@N03/5553598828/, there
is a dialog element that says "Keep Foo" with a "change language" below.

The "change language" UI is going to expose all the languages we have on
AMO, dynamically retrieved from AMO, including description strings that
are uploaded as part of the language pack and extracted by AMO into the
API data.

Perpendicular to that: We only have one slot on the android market. The
challenge is to get from that one entry to the language you want, on a
mobile device. Users already complain about how bloated we are, and the
humble amount of locales we ship by default adds to it measurably
already. The design we're currently implementing does contain a few
80-20 rules, and I think that's OK.

If you're taking the challenge, and have proposals, we'd love to hear
them. They can be alternative to what we do now, or in addition. Write
ups are cool, mockups preferred. Either phone or tablet.

Axel
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Re: Fennec L10n status

Rimas Kudelis-4
In reply to this post by Axel Hecht
Hello all, and thanks everyone for your input. My reply is at the bottom.

2011.09.29 15:45, Axel Hecht wrote:

> On 29.09.11 13:06, Rimas Kudelis wrote:
>> After I announced new versions of all Mozilla's apps yesterday on a
>> Facebook page, my attention was drawn to the fact that apparently,
>> Firefox for mobile is no longer available for Lithuanian for maemo.
>>
>> In fact, it seems like since v6.0, it's only being made available in 15
>> or so languages in a 'Multi' version for Maemo (and I guess for Android
>> too), whereas single-language versions are simply not built anymore
>> (with an exception of en-US of course, which always gets special yet
>> sometimes hardly justifiable treatment).
>>
>> My question is simple and straightforward: WTF? Should I (and about 20
>> other people/teams) not feel betrayed and cheated with such course of
>> action? After translating and signing off all I get is 15 OTHER locales
>> to choose from? Was it at least announced in this group or anywhere else?
>
> To be quite honest, I have no idea what's going on.
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=690322.
>
> For context, I have no visibility into whether we have mobile builds or
> not.

That's a surprise to me. I assumed that L10n drivers for both firefoxes
are the same.

> Also, the folks that I talked to in the mobile team have left,
> Stuart is working on a different project within mozilla, Thomas left
> mozilla for other ventures last week. There are no real replacements.
>
>> I personally find it a bit silly that in those 20 languages, Fennec is
>> available for Linux, OS X, and Windows, yet is not available for its own
>> target platforms – Android and Maemo. Right now I suggested that friend
>> of mine to attempt to convert his Fennec into Lithuanian by installing
>> an XPI file from the Linux directory on Mozilla's ftp server, but is
>> that really the right approach we should be taking? I don't think so.
>
> Thomas was the guy to drive the first-run experience to install language
> packs from AMO.
> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Mobile/Projects/Firstrun_language_choice
> doesn't cover it really, there's more progress in various bugs. I don't
> have an ETA for you, though.
>
<...>
>
> I'm not satisfied with our l10n story on mobile. It's in a different
> environment than desktop, due to app markets and their constraints, but
> we haven't come up with an l10n plan that allows me or other l10n
> drivers to communicate in terms of what happens when, or have mobile
> guys stake a stand before the l10n community. It's a bad situation to be
> in. We know what we want, see the above wiki doc, but we'll get there
> when we get there. That's all I can sign.

Considering that the current version is the last to support Maemo
officially, the state of Fennec on Maemo is not important anymore. I
didn't know that a few days ago. However, we have the same problem with
Android, which remains important. There are currently two builds for
Android – en-US and multi, the latter containing only a handful of
locales. And I can understand for sure that nobody wants Fennec to grow
too big, since space still matters in mobiles.

Anyway, what I don't really understand is why decisions and concrete
actions are taking that long in this situation. The wiki page linked to
above (dated April this year), and the mockups linked to from it have
pretty much all the logic covered in them (how much logic does a simple
language chooser need anyway?). Why can't that be simply implemented
ASAP, at least as a temporary measure, leaving final perfectionist
touches (if any) for later? This would reduce the amount of Android
builds needed to one, reduce the amount of disk space that a non-en-US
build consumes to just two locales (en-US and the one in use) AND would
make Android-unsupported locales such as mine available for use. So, is
this feature at least being worked on, or is localization simply not
considered a priority feature nowadays?

Thanks,
Rimas
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Re: Fennec L10n status

Julen Ruiz Aizpuru
In reply to this post by Axel Hecht
or., 2011.eko iraren 30a 00:45(e)an, Axel Hecht(e)k idatzi zuen:

> On 29.09.11 22:23, Julen Ruiz Aizpuru wrote:
>> og., 2011.eko iraren 29a 15:07(e)an, Axel Hecht(e)k idatzi zuen:
>>> On 29.09.11 14:46, Julen Ruiz Aizpuru wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On a related note, and referring to "the first-run will detect the
>>>> Android OS language and auto-install languages from AMO":
>>>> Let me add that that may fit perfectly in most of the situations, but
>>>> there are some languages that are not (officially) supported by
>>>> Android and have a localized version of Firefox Mobile. So
>>>> auto-installing language packs based on the OS language may limit/rest
>>>> the visibility of smaller languages that are available to the user but
>>>> lack support in Android.
>>>
>>> The point of langpacks download from AMO is exactly to support languages
>>> that are not supported on Android.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, that's fine. But my comment was related to visibility.
>>
>> Let's say a Basque user has Android in Spanish or French because Basque
>> is not supported in Android. If I understand this correctly and
>> according to the proposed behaviour, the Basque user will get Firefox in
>> Spanish or French automatically. But s/he will never notice there's a
>> Basque version of Firefox available, and will keep using the browser in
>> the default language.
>>
>> Just wanted to point that out.
>
> Looking at http://www.flickr.com/photos/49885370@N03/5553598828/, there
> is a dialog element that says "Keep Foo" with a "change language" below.
>
> The "change language" UI is going to expose all the languages we have on
> AMO, dynamically retrieved from AMO, including description strings that
> are uploaded as part of the language pack and extracted by AMO into the
> API data.
>
> Perpendicular to that: We only have one slot on the android market. The
> challenge is to get from that one entry to the language you want, on a
> mobile device. Users already complain about how bloated we are, and the
> humble amount of locales we ship by default adds to it measurably
> already. The design we're currently implementing does contain a few
> 80-20 rules, and I think that's OK.
>
> If you're taking the challenge, and have proposals, we'd love to hear
> them. They can be alternative to what we do now, or in addition. Write
> ups are cool, mockups preferred. Either phone or tablet.
>

Sorry, I didn't see the "Change language" link that is placed below —
it's not prominent enough perhaps?.

In any case, that UI would cover the use-case I was thinking about, so
I'm happy with that.

Thanks for the information.
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Re: Fennec L10n status

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by Axel Hecht
On 03.10.11 11:09, Julen Ruiz Aizpuru wrote:

> or., 2011.eko iraren 30a 00:45(e)an, Axel Hecht(e)k idatzi zuen:
>> On 29.09.11 22:23, Julen Ruiz Aizpuru wrote:
>>> og., 2011.eko iraren 29a 15:07(e)an, Axel Hecht(e)k idatzi zuen:
>>>> On 29.09.11 14:46, Julen Ruiz Aizpuru wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On a related note, and referring to "the first-run will detect the
>>>>> Android OS language and auto-install languages from AMO":
>>>>> Let me add that that may fit perfectly in most of the situations, but
>>>>> there are some languages that are not (officially) supported by
>>>>> Android and have a localized version of Firefox Mobile. So
>>>>> auto-installing language packs based on the OS language may limit/rest
>>>>> the visibility of smaller languages that are available to the user but
>>>>> lack support in Android.
>>>>
>>>> The point of langpacks download from AMO is exactly to support
>>>> languages
>>>> that are not supported on Android.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, that's fine. But my comment was related to visibility.
>>>
>>> Let's say a Basque user has Android in Spanish or French because Basque
>>> is not supported in Android. If I understand this correctly and
>>> according to the proposed behaviour, the Basque user will get Firefox in
>>> Spanish or French automatically. But s/he will never notice there's a
>>> Basque version of Firefox available, and will keep using the browser in
>>> the default language.
>>>
>>> Just wanted to point that out.
>>
>> Looking at http://www.flickr.com/photos/49885370@N03/5553598828/, there
>> is a dialog element that says "Keep Foo" with a "change language" below.
>>
>> The "change language" UI is going to expose all the languages we have on
>> AMO, dynamically retrieved from AMO, including description strings that
>> are uploaded as part of the language pack and extracted by AMO into the
>> API data.
>>
>> Perpendicular to that: We only have one slot on the android market. The
>> challenge is to get from that one entry to the language you want, on a
>> mobile device. Users already complain about how bloated we are, and the
>> humble amount of locales we ship by default adds to it measurably
>> already. The design we're currently implementing does contain a few
>> 80-20 rules, and I think that's OK.
>>
>> If you're taking the challenge, and have proposals, we'd love to hear
>> them. They can be alternative to what we do now, or in addition. Write
>> ups are cool, mockups preferred. Either phone or tablet.
>>
>
> Sorry, I didn't see the "Change language" link that is placed below —
> it's not prominent enough perhaps?.
>
> In any case, that UI would cover the use-case I was thinking about, so
> I'm happy with that.
>
> Thanks for the information.

I think the UI is only shown on profile creation.

Axel
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Re: Fennec L10n status

Robert Kaiser
In reply to this post by Michael Bauer-11
Julen Ruiz Aizpuru schrieb:
> As I see, there's only a set of bundled languages, so even if you can
> choose and switch languages, if your language is not "big" enough,
> then that's the same as having no choice.

http://digdug2k.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/downloadable-locales-in-fennec/ 
should enable that, right?

If there's problems with current Aurora builds that have that, I'm sure
the team will want to know.

Robert Kaiser

--
Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never
meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible
arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the
time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :)
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Re: Fennec L10n status

Axel Hecht
In reply to this post by Rimas Kudelis-4
On 01.10.11 19:03, Rimas Kudelis wrote:

> Hello all, and thanks everyone for your input. My reply is at the bottom.
>
> 2011.09.29 15:45, Axel Hecht wrote:
>> On 29.09.11 13:06, Rimas Kudelis wrote:
>>> After I announced new versions of all Mozilla's apps yesterday on a
>>> Facebook page, my attention was drawn to the fact that apparently,
>>> Firefox for mobile is no longer available for Lithuanian for maemo.
>>>
>>> In fact, it seems like since v6.0, it's only being made available in 15
>>> or so languages in a 'Multi' version for Maemo (and I guess for Android
>>> too), whereas single-language versions are simply not built anymore
>>> (with an exception of en-US of course, which always gets special yet
>>> sometimes hardly justifiable treatment).
>>>
>>> My question is simple and straightforward: WTF? Should I (and about 20
>>> other people/teams) not feel betrayed and cheated with such course of
>>> action? After translating and signing off all I get is 15 OTHER locales
>>> to choose from? Was it at least announced in this group or anywhere else?
>>
>> To be quite honest, I have no idea what's going on.
>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=690322.
>>
>> For context, I have no visibility into whether we have mobile builds or
>> not.
>
> That's a surprise to me. I assumed that L10n drivers for both firefoxes
> are the same.

The l10n drivers have some overlap, I guess (me). The development teams
are different, as are the build infrastructures. My comment was about
the actual bits on ftp and what's in them, and for that, I file bugs if
I want to know.

>> Also, the folks that I talked to in the mobile team have left,
>> Stuart is working on a different project within mozilla, Thomas left
>> mozilla for other ventures last week. There are no real replacements.
>>
>>> I personally find it a bit silly that in those 20 languages, Fennec is
>>> available for Linux, OS X, and Windows, yet is not available for its own
>>> target platforms – Android and Maemo. Right now I suggested that friend
>>> of mine to attempt to convert his Fennec into Lithuanian by installing
>>> an XPI file from the Linux directory on Mozilla's ftp server, but is
>>> that really the right approach we should be taking? I don't think so.
>>
>> Thomas was the guy to drive the first-run experience to install language
>> packs from AMO.
>> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Mobile/Projects/Firstrun_language_choice
>> doesn't cover it really, there's more progress in various bugs. I don't
>> have an ETA for you, though.
>>
> <...>
>>
>> I'm not satisfied with our l10n story on mobile. It's in a different
>> environment than desktop, due to app markets and their constraints, but
>> we haven't come up with an l10n plan that allows me or other l10n
>> drivers to communicate in terms of what happens when, or have mobile
>> guys stake a stand before the l10n community. It's a bad situation to be
>> in. We know what we want, see the above wiki doc, but we'll get there
>> when we get there. That's all I can sign.
>
> Considering that the current version is the last to support Maemo
> officially, the state of Fennec on Maemo is not important anymore. I
> didn't know that a few days ago. However, we have the same problem with
> Android, which remains important. There are currently two builds for
> Android – en-US and multi, the latter containing only a handful of
> locales. And I can understand for sure that nobody wants Fennec to grow
> too big, since space still matters in mobiles.
>
> Anyway, what I don't really understand is why decisions and concrete
> actions are taking that long in this situation. The wiki page linked to
> above (dated April this year), and the mockups linked to from it have
> pretty much all the logic covered in them (how much logic does a simple
> language chooser need anyway?). Why can't that be simply implemented
> ASAP, at least as a temporary measure, leaving final perfectionist
> touches (if any) for later? This would reduce the amount of Android
> builds needed to one, reduce the amount of disk space that a non-en-US
> build consumes to just two locales (en-US and the one in use) AND would
> make Android-unsupported locales such as mine available for use. So, is
> this feature at least being worked on, or is localization simply not
> considered a priority feature nowadays?

One big problem is doing language packs on nightlies, for which we have
basically no existing compatibility action, and also doing sync'ed
updates to apps and addons is hard.
We're also facing challenges on the automation front, as well as APIs on
AMO to upload stuff.

Folks are working on this, on many fronts. See also the blog post in
another section on this thread. Pound that stuff, please.

Axel
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